invTempestJoin Date: 2003-03-02Member: 14223Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Remove the timing aspect and you have a easy to learn intuitive mechanic that still has a high skill ceiling if the speed cap is set at a reasonably high level. Jumping from a wall or any change in height makes sense as gravity will give you an increase in speed. Seems very intuitive and makes sense to the biggest majority of players.
Limiting the mechanic to the top 15% of the player base is a very bad idea which will only lead to community segregation (very prevalent in NS1).
The mechanic should be as simple as this:
1- Jump on a wall 2- Jump off the wall and gain speed
No artificial meters that add a layer of complexity needed.
Look, they have a very good point when they point out how this gives certain players huge advantages over others based more on a unclear movement system. Not everyone has the time to dump into the game to be able to master a movement system like this. The problem arises that when a player tries to use it in a game, when they fail, they're punished. I'm trying to wall hop towards a marine. I screw up and lose the majority of my momentum and die. Very quickly, I will just stop doing it and there will be a huge gap between players who had the time to load up a lan server and practice for days becoming a master and those who just don't even try for whatever reason.
Being able to use the movement ability should be inherently easy, as easy as just activating an ability like leap. However, being able to master when to use it and how to use it to your advantage should separate player skill. I can think of endless examples of this off the top of my head. Super smash brothers and their side step ability. It's super simple. press block and a direction. Anyone can do it. However, what separates the pros from the scrubs is their ability to time it properly and pick the proper type of sidestep. League of Legends has numerous movement abilities. Fizz's hop ability any one can perform but what separate pro fizz players from scrubs is again when they decide to use it, if they time it properly to dodge attacks, and how they decide to use it; I could use it to engage my target and slow their movement, I can use it to finish off and slow a fleeing enemy, I can use it to dodge a powerful counter attack, I can use it to escape a situation which doesn't favor me, and so on. Easy to use but takes skill to understand and master.
You might was well just make wall hopping some long combo of buttons.
Let me be clear though. I'm not inherently against some sort of wall hopping mechanism which helps close the gap between you and a marine. I just think the current implementation is going to create a lot of confusion for players and put off potential new comers.
How about something as simple as, Jumping off a wall while moving forward gives you a free leap. So you have a large gap to close, you run towards a marine, jump on the wall, jump off giving you a free leap. If you have a second hive you can then leap again to close even more distance. This keeps skulks from flying around the map like they're constantly high on meth but allows them to close the gap when it actually matters.
<!--quoteo(post=1917825:date=Mar 26 2012, 12:12 AM:name=invTempest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (invTempest @ Mar 26 2012, 12:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remove the timing aspect and you have a easy to learn intuitive mechanic that still has a high skill ceiling if the speed cap is set at a reasonably high level. Jumping from a wall or any change in height makes sense as gravity will give you an increase in speed. Seems very intuitive and makes sense to the biggest majority of players.
Limiting the mechanic to the top 15% of the player base is a very bad idea which will only lead to community segregation (very prevalent in NS1).
The mechanic should be as simple as this:
1- Jump on a wall 2- Jump off the wall and gain speed
No artificial meters that add a layer of complexity needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1917825:date=Mar 25 2012, 06:12 PM:name=invTempest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (invTempest @ Mar 25 2012, 06:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The mechanic should be as simple as this:
1- Jump on a wall 2- Jump off the wall and gain speed
No artificial meters that add a layer of complexity needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Absolutely agree. Artificial limiters should be avoided where possible and this is one of those times. Make the speed trajectory-dependent, sure, but the "wait 0.XYZsecs" rule is bad.
<!--quoteo(post=1917825:date=Mar 25 2012, 07:12 PM:name=invTempest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (invTempest @ Mar 25 2012, 07:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remove the timing aspect and you have a easy to learn intuitive mechanic that still has a high skill ceiling if the speed cap is set at a reasonably high level. Jumping from a wall or any change in height makes sense as gravity will give you an increase in speed. Seems very intuitive and makes sense to the biggest majority of players.
Limiting the mechanic to the top 15% of the player base is a very bad idea which will only lead to community segregation (very prevalent in NS1).
The mechanic should be as simple as this:
1- Jump on a wall 2- Jump off the wall and gain speed
No artificial meters that add a layer of complexity needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is good. Current system minus precise timing of jumps would still be an effective system.
<!--quoteo(post=1917826:date=Mar 25 2012, 07:14 PM:name=l3lessed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l3lessed @ Mar 25 2012, 07:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917826"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about something as simple as, Jumping off a wall while moving forward gives you a free leap<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This might be a neat way to do it too. Maybe as a tradeoff, it could give you extremely low air control for that leap (so the hive 2 triggered leap is the choice for when you want to do big turns)? I dunno. You could even make it cost energy to perform - maybe keep the 'timing window' concept and tie it to how much energy is spent, how powerful the leap is and so on? Now your white meter feedback is given to players without slapping a bunch of debug info on the HUD, and players have more choices to make than "do a walljump or don't"
It seems like this is already a better approach, since you don't have to worry about several different speed tiers and cumulative effects.
On second reflection, I guess that there will have to be the artificial "press jump before 0.XYZsecs" caveat of course. The difference would be that at least it follows a simpler rule, namely; hit jump as fast as you can!
<!--quoteo(post=1917838:date=Mar 25 2012, 07:26 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Mar 25 2012, 07:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On second reflection, I guess that there will have to be the artificial "press jump before 0.XYZsecs" caveat of course. The difference would be that at least it follows a simpler rule, namely; hit jump as fast as you can!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well they can simplify the timing of it. Right now, you have to give maybe 0.5s after you land on a wall before you launch off. If you launch off at 0.1 or 0.9, you will get little speed from it. They can simply make that up to 1s after you land on a wall, you can jump off for full speed gain.
Then the values would have to be tweaked. What is each leap worth? +2 per leap? So base run speed of 7: 1 leap = 9 speed 2nd leap = 11 3rd = 13 etc
That's similar to how it is now if you can properly time your jumps. The timing seems inconsistent when you are wall jumping, though.
<!--quoteo(post=1917825:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:12 PM:name=invTempest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (invTempest @ Mar 25 2012, 03:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remove the timing aspect and you have a easy to learn intuitive mechanic that still has a high skill ceiling if the speed cap is set at a reasonably high level. Jumping from a wall or any change in height makes sense as gravity will give you an increase in speed. Seems very intuitive and makes sense to the biggest majority of players.
Limiting the mechanic to the top 15% of the player base is a very bad idea which will only lead to community segregation (very prevalent in NS1).
The mechanic should be as simple as this:
1- Jump on a wall 2- Jump off the wall and gain speed
No artificial meters that add a layer of complexity needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1917839:date=Mar 25 2012, 06:29 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 25 2012, 06:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917839"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you launch off at 0.1 or 0.9, you will get little speed from it. They can simply make that up to 1s after you land on a wall, you can jump off for full speed gain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I want to see diminishing returns for having bad jump-timing so the binary approach you suggest isn't really ideal in my opinion (otherwise, we might as well have a hold-to-jump key). My qualm was with the complexity of the rule rather; "jump as fast as you can" makes much more sense than "jump at 0.X seconds".
The reason you need to wait a certain time before jumping is because of the wallwalking mechanic. You need to wait until you are "stuck" to the wall. It would be much better if jump propelled you away from the wall regardless if you were wallwalking on it or not. That way you could use crates and boxes and other horizontal surfaces much easier to boost off of.
Theres alot of bad information in this thread... saying someone who just figured out bhop is as good as someone that practiced it for years is plain wrong.. the same hold true with this new system. Saying any lerk can be really good at flying is also very false, lerk flight is arguably one of the highest skilled movements in the game.. It requires alot of awareness to the map and your enemies, so that you can use geometry as cover and on how you fly so that you are hard to hit. Most NS2 lerks I see fly in straight lines... very easy targets. Regarding wallhop I think most peoples complaint is that it is too restrictive... combined with the larger skulk model you are going to get destroyed by marines with decent aim/fps. I think its already decently evident with the shotgun, if you have decent FPS and miss that huge skulk model then you really do deserve to die.
<!--quoteo(post=1917826:date=Mar 26 2012, 12:14 AM:name=l3lessed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l3lessed @ Mar 26 2012, 12:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917826"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Look, they have a very good point when they point out how this gives certain players huge advantages over others based more on a unclear movement system. Not everyone has the time to dump into the game to be able to master a movement system like this. The problem arises that when a player tries to use it in a game, when they fail, they're punished. I'm trying to wall hop towards a marine. I screw up and lose the majority of my momentum and die. Very quickly, I will just stop doing it and there will be a huge gap between players who had the time to load up a lan server and practice for days becoming a master and those who just don't even try for whatever reason.
Being able to use the movement ability should be inherently easy, as easy as just activating an ability like leap. However, being able to master when to use it and how to use it to your advantage should separate player skill. I can think of endless examples of this off the top of my head. Super smash brothers and their side step ability. It's super simple. press block and a direction. Anyone can do it. However, what separates the pros from the scrubs is their ability to time it properly and pick the proper type of sidestep. League of Legends has numerous movement abilities. Fizz's hop ability any one can perform but what separate pro fizz players from scrubs is again when they decide to use it, if they time it properly to dodge attacks, and how they decide to use it; I could use it to engage my target and slow their movement, I can use it to finish off and slow a fleeing enemy, I can use it to dodge a powerful counter attack, I can use it to escape a situation which doesn't favor me, and so on. Easy to use but takes skill to understand and master.
You might was well just make wall hopping some long combo of buttons.
Let me be clear though. I'm not inherently against some sort of wall hopping mechanism which helps close the gap between you and a marine. I just think the current implementation is going to create a lot of confusion for players and put off potential new comers.
How about something as simple as, Jumping off a wall while moving forward gives you a free leap. So you have a large gap to close, you run towards a marine, jump on the wall, jump off giving you a free leap. If you have a second hive you can then leap again to close even more distance. This keeps skulks from flying around the map like they're constantly high on meth but allows them to close the gap when it actually matters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with this. You talk about easy to learn, hard to master. IMO this applies to the system as it is now (with timer).
No one forces anyone to walljump, you can move around perfectly fine by just crawling around + leap. So here i would call the walljumping itself as something to master and not just blaming it on the timer because everyone HAS to be able to walljump.
There is nothing wrong with things that arent completely clear in games. Fighter games work completely around mastering timings and learning specific combinations and such, so why would this be impossible in NS2? Sure, a newcomer might not know about this at first but there are a number of reasons why that shouldnt be a problem to begin with.
1. If he doesnt know its there he wont miss it. 2. If he sees someone use it, he can try to learn it himself, does not instantly knowing it take his ability to play away? i wouldnt even say close to that, its not like he cant move around without hopping from wall to wall. 3. It leaves something in the game to discover for players beyond what they expected from the content. Everyone can learn the basic game, but if you put in the extra time you can pit some extra stuff up. 4. Gamers shouldnt be pampered to much, games used to be hard as hell more often then not (decreasing while we build up towards "next gen console" years). I blame this last one on gaming becoming "mainstream" so it "HAS" to be accessible to everyone. 5. Do you really think people cant learn a single timing? i mean, its always the same timing, its not really complex if you consider ns2 already high speed close combat fights (which you need to be able to do to even play the game), you jump at wall, you jump around the right time (which you learned), you aim at where you want to go (arcing your flight). 6. No one needs to practice this. You forget that you dont actually need to practice something like that X hours at one, if someone plays 2 hours a week, by the time he has 80+ hours the chances are high he can actually do those jumps because, even though he doesnt play much at a time he spill played lots as a whole, so he got lots of time to practice in the actual game, which i might add, is how you should learn a game.
I however do have a suggestion to make it less strict. Like if you jump really spot on you gain x speed, and the further you are away from that perfect point the less speed you gain (up to a threshold from where on its 0 gain).
<!--quoteo(post=1917886:date=Mar 26 2012, 01:38 AM:name=Mkk_Bitestuff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff @ Mar 26 2012, 01:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917886"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Theres alot of bad information in this thread... saying someone who just figured out bhop is as good as someone that practiced it for years is plain wrong.. the same hold true with this new system. Saying any lerk can be really good at flying is also very false, lerk flight is arguably one of the highest skilled movements in the game.. It requires alot of awareness to the map and your enemies, so that you can use geometry as cover and on how you fly so that you are hard to hit. Most NS2 lerks I see fly in straight lines... very easy targets. Regarding wallhop I think most peoples complaint is that it is too restrictive... combined with the larger skulk model you are going to get destroyed by marines with decent aim/fps. I think its already decently evident with the shotgun, if you have decent FPS and miss that huge skulk model then you really do deserve to die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference with lerk flight is that you automatically get better at it simply by being a lerk. You cannot fail to improve your map knowledge, air control, reaction time etc as you fly around, because all of those are things you need to use to be a lerk, it is almost perfectly intuitive, it is instinctive to go as fast as possible to get where you're going and doing so will boost your performance in combat and train your control skills, and going faster is simply a matter of hitting the space bar and going down slopes, both of which you will do by neccessity at times.
Whereas this movement is something it's very easy to not even know exists, much less actually practise with. It forces you to stop taking the direct route and mess about doing things that don't make a lot of sense in order to maybe gain a speed boost if you're lucky. Lerks on the other hand DO gain a speed boost and the difficulty lies in not losing it.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1917829:date=Mar 25 2012, 06:16 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Mar 25 2012, 06:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917829"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Absolutely agree. Artificial limiters should be avoided where possible and this is one of those times. Make the speed trajectory-dependent, sure, but the "wait 0.XYZsecs" rule is bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i agree and that will be changed with next build. i don't want that players need to learn an artificial, unintuitive timing or learn about random restrictions in order to "master" some movement system.
<!--quoteo(post=1918044:date=Mar 26 2012, 05:40 AM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Mar 26 2012, 05:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i agree and that will be changed with next build. i don't want that players need to learn an artificial, unintuitive timing or learn about random restrictions in order to "master" some movement system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That statement is delicious and you should feel delicious.
@Dragon-Guard It shouldn't just be <i>easy</i> to learn and hard to master.
It should be <i>FUN</i> to learn and hard to master.
Fun to learn hard to master does not define skulk movement currently. Lerks and Fades are fun to learn, why not skulks? Skill should reside in how the tool is used not whether you can get the tool to work or not.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
I still think the system entirely misses its purpose. It seems the problem is being tackled from the wrong side.
The need for a skulk movement system is to balance out skilled marines with skilled skulks. This system does very little to address that issue.
From some Gathers tonight, even Skie (who for all intents and purposes is very good with the walljumping and moves very fast) is still easy to kill as a marine.
The mechanic allows skulks to build up a lot of speed and reduce the distance between themselves and marines quickly. However, this makes little difference to very good marines. The skulk is required to approach you indirectly (to avoid being an easy kill), so as a marine you simply sidestep away from the side he approaches, causing the skulk to miss you. Now the skulk lands and turns, getting back to 7 speed, and the advantage is still with the marine.
Has there been any though into how the system evens the balance between skilled marines/skulks, and if so, what is the thinking?
Yeah, Arga, that's sorta what I was getting at with my other thread. Even if the maps become overloaded with props to walljump from, it's extremely obvious that skulks will use that to approach you instead of taking the shortest distance like a fade/lerk could. People can hate on bunnyhopping all day, but I bet if it was in the game and Skie learned to use it at the same level, he would be harder to hit.
Right now you have to hop on the wall just a taddddd bit longer then it feels like you should. After you do it a couple times its ez pz to tear through the map at break neck speeds.
I entirely agree with the whole jump off a wall, obtain speed boost idea. Its intuitive, any new player will immediately catch on and figure out whats going on with that and how to do it. Skilled play will favor tactical ability over mastering timing.
Best of all, how amazingly skulky is leaping from walls? Incredibly right? Hopefully this will put him more on even grounds against marines, being able to approach with fast speed from any angle.
what i would really like is to convert the speed into vertical speed and maintain it while running up a wall. so you could get a good speed going then bounce off the floor to the ceiling.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1918208:date=Mar 26 2012, 11:40 AM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Mar 26 2012, 11:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so as a marine you simply sidestep away from the side he approaches, causing the skulk to miss you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wasnt all this change in skulk movement directly from implementing air control? shouldnt more air control just fix that scenario/problem you described? if the marine moves out of the way at the last second, the "skilled" skulk should be able to to have some air control to allow for that fast reflex adjustment.
maybe if you tie <b>more air control</b> to <b>fast skulk speed</b>, you would have an even more rewarding system that closes that gap?
Gorges slide, lerks flap about, fades blink around, and skulks bounce off walls. I dig it. Good riddance to the archaic immersion breaker that is bunny hopping.
@ironhorse, You cannot give skulk more air control, it already has the maximum air control possible, namely you redirect your velocity in the view direction immediately. Skulk in the air plays a bit like a gliding lerk.
Doesn't other games do the exact opposite, the faster you go the less air control you get ? I was trying warsow, and when you start bunny hoping it becomes hard to turn, so there is a bunch of tricks to do sharp turns without loosing your velocity.
<!--quoteo(post=1918448:date=Mar 27 2012, 06:11 AM:name=Clink)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clink @ Mar 27 2012, 06:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918448"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorges slide, lerks flap about, fades blink around, and skulks bounce off walls. I dig it. Good riddance to the archaic immersion breaker that is bunny hopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you blind? After the wall jump is complete what do you think skie is doing to maintain speed? Oh, ya, he is kangaroo hopping... stop with the immersion breaking whine. You know what immersion gets us? Stupid game breaking power nodes that make pretty lights flicker but ruin gameplay. GG.
Comments
Limiting the mechanic to the top 15% of the player base is a very bad idea which will only lead to community segregation (very prevalent in NS1).
The mechanic should be as simple as this:
1- Jump on a wall
2- Jump off the wall and gain speed
No artificial meters that add a layer of complexity needed.
Being able to use the movement ability should be inherently easy, as easy as just activating an ability like leap. However, being able to master when to use it and how to use it to your advantage should separate player skill. I can think of endless examples of this off the top of my head. Super smash brothers and their side step ability. It's super simple. press block and a direction. Anyone can do it. However, what separates the pros from the scrubs is their ability to time it properly and pick the proper type of sidestep. League of Legends has numerous movement abilities. Fizz's hop ability any one can perform but what separate pro fizz players from scrubs is again when they decide to use it, if they time it properly to dodge attacks, and how they decide to use it; I could use it to engage my target and slow their movement, I can use it to finish off and slow a fleeing enemy, I can use it to dodge a powerful counter attack, I can use it to escape a situation which doesn't favor me, and so on. Easy to use but takes skill to understand and master.
You might was well just make wall hopping some long combo of buttons.
Let me be clear though. I'm not inherently against some sort of wall hopping mechanism which helps close the gap between you and a marine. I just think the current implementation is going to create a lot of confusion for players and put off potential new comers.
How about something as simple as, Jumping off a wall while moving forward gives you a free leap. So you have a large gap to close, you run towards a marine, jump on the wall, jump off giving you a free leap. If you have a second hive you can then leap again to close even more distance. This keeps skulks from flying around the map like they're constantly high on meth but allows them to close the gap when it actually matters.
Limiting the mechanic to the top 15% of the player base is a very bad idea which will only lead to community segregation (very prevalent in NS1).
The mechanic should be as simple as this:
1- Jump on a wall
2- Jump off the wall and gain speed
No artificial meters that add a layer of complexity needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very sensible post agree 100%!
1- Jump on a wall
2- Jump off the wall and gain speed
No artificial meters that add a layer of complexity needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely agree. Artificial limiters should be avoided where possible and this is one of those times. Make the speed trajectory-dependent, sure, but the "wait 0.XYZsecs" rule is bad.
Limiting the mechanic to the top 15% of the player base is a very bad idea which will only lead to community segregation (very prevalent in NS1).
The mechanic should be as simple as this:
1- Jump on a wall
2- Jump off the wall and gain speed
No artificial meters that add a layer of complexity needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is good. Current system minus precise timing of jumps would still be an effective system.
This might be a neat way to do it too. Maybe as a tradeoff, it could give you extremely low air control for that leap (so the hive 2 triggered leap is the choice for when you want to do big turns)? I dunno. You could even make it cost energy to perform - maybe keep the 'timing window' concept and tie it to how much energy is spent, how powerful the leap is and so on? Now your white meter feedback is given to players without slapping a bunch of debug info on the HUD, and players have more choices to make than "do a walljump or don't"
It seems like this is already a better approach, since you don't have to worry about several different speed tiers and cumulative effects.
Well they can simplify the timing of it. Right now, you have to give maybe 0.5s after you land on a wall before you launch off. If you launch off at 0.1 or 0.9, you will get little speed from it. They can simply make that up to 1s after you land on a wall, you can jump off for full speed gain.
Then the values would have to be tweaked. What is each leap worth? +2 per leap? So base run speed of 7:
1 leap = 9 speed
2nd leap = 11
3rd = 13
etc
That's similar to how it is now if you can properly time your jumps. The timing seems inconsistent when you are wall jumping, though.
Limiting the mechanic to the top 15% of the player base is a very bad idea which will only lead to community segregation (very prevalent in NS1).
The mechanic should be as simple as this:
1- Jump on a wall
2- Jump off the wall and gain speed
No artificial meters that add a layer of complexity needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree....Lock the thread!
I want to see diminishing returns for having bad jump-timing so the binary approach you suggest isn't really ideal in my opinion (otherwise, we might as well have a hold-to-jump key). My qualm was with the complexity of the rule rather; "jump as fast as you can" makes much more sense than "jump at 0.X seconds".
Being able to use the movement ability should be inherently easy, as easy as just activating an ability like leap. However, being able to master when to use it and how to use it to your advantage should separate player skill. I can think of endless examples of this off the top of my head. Super smash brothers and their side step ability. It's super simple. press block and a direction. Anyone can do it. However, what separates the pros from the scrubs is their ability to time it properly and pick the proper type of sidestep. League of Legends has numerous movement abilities. Fizz's hop ability any one can perform but what separate pro fizz players from scrubs is again when they decide to use it, if they time it properly to dodge attacks, and how they decide to use it; I could use it to engage my target and slow their movement, I can use it to finish off and slow a fleeing enemy, I can use it to dodge a powerful counter attack, I can use it to escape a situation which doesn't favor me, and so on. Easy to use but takes skill to understand and master.
You might was well just make wall hopping some long combo of buttons.
Let me be clear though. I'm not inherently against some sort of wall hopping mechanism which helps close the gap between you and a marine. I just think the current implementation is going to create a lot of confusion for players and put off potential new comers.
How about something as simple as, Jumping off a wall while moving forward gives you a free leap. So you have a large gap to close, you run towards a marine, jump on the wall, jump off giving you a free leap. If you have a second hive you can then leap again to close even more distance. This keeps skulks from flying around the map like they're constantly high on meth but allows them to close the gap when it actually matters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with this.
You talk about easy to learn, hard to master.
IMO this applies to the system as it is now (with timer).
No one forces anyone to walljump, you can move around perfectly fine by just crawling around + leap.
So here i would call the walljumping itself as something to master and not just blaming it on the timer because everyone HAS to be able to walljump.
There is nothing wrong with things that arent completely clear in games.
Fighter games work completely around mastering timings and learning specific combinations and such, so why would this be impossible in NS2?
Sure, a newcomer might not know about this at first but there are a number of reasons why that shouldnt be a problem to begin with.
1. If he doesnt know its there he wont miss it.
2. If he sees someone use it, he can try to learn it himself, does not instantly knowing it take his ability to play away? i wouldnt even say close to that, its not like he cant move around without hopping from wall to wall.
3. It leaves something in the game to discover for players beyond what they expected from the content. Everyone can learn the basic game, but if you put in the extra time you can pit some extra stuff up.
4. Gamers shouldnt be pampered to much, games used to be hard as hell more often then not (decreasing while we build up towards "next gen console" years). I blame this last one on gaming becoming "mainstream" so it "HAS" to be accessible to everyone.
5. Do you really think people cant learn a single timing? i mean, its always the same timing, its not really complex if you consider ns2 already high speed close combat fights (which you need to be able to do to even play the game), you jump at wall, you jump around the right time (which you learned), you aim at where you want to go (arcing your flight).
6. No one needs to practice this. You forget that you dont actually need to practice something like that X hours at one, if someone plays 2 hours a week, by the time he has 80+ hours the chances are high he can actually do those jumps because, even though he doesnt play much at a time he spill played lots as a whole, so he got lots of time to practice in the actual game, which i might add, is how you should learn a game.
I however do have a suggestion to make it less strict.
Like if you jump really spot on you gain x speed, and the further you are away from that perfect point the less speed you gain (up to a threshold from where on its 0 gain).
The difference with lerk flight is that you automatically get better at it simply by being a lerk. You cannot fail to improve your map knowledge, air control, reaction time etc as you fly around, because all of those are things you need to use to be a lerk, it is almost perfectly intuitive, it is instinctive to go as fast as possible to get where you're going and doing so will boost your performance in combat and train your control skills, and going faster is simply a matter of hitting the space bar and going down slopes, both of which you will do by neccessity at times.
Whereas this movement is something it's very easy to not even know exists, much less actually practise with. It forces you to stop taking the direct route and mess about doing things that don't make a lot of sense in order to maybe gain a speed boost if you're lucky. Lerks on the other hand DO gain a speed boost and the difficulty lies in not losing it.
i agree and that will be changed with next build. i don't want that players need to learn an artificial, unintuitive timing or learn about random restrictions in order to "master" some movement system.
That statement is delicious and you should feel delicious.
Theres always a wire or some metal beam that gets in my way and drops my speed to 3. So irritating!
It shouldn't just be <i>easy</i> to learn and hard to master.
It should be <i>FUN</i> to learn and hard to master.
Fun to learn hard to master does not define skulk movement currently. Lerks and Fades are fun to learn, why not skulks? Skill should reside in how the tool is used not whether you can get the tool to work or not.
edit: spelling
I'm afraid that the unexperienced player won't gonna like this too much tough.
This coming from an Action Quake 2 veteran and a regular Quake Live player. Also veteran tester for original Natural Selection.
The need for a skulk movement system is to balance out skilled marines with skilled skulks. This system does very little to address that issue.
From some Gathers tonight, even Skie (who for all intents and purposes is very good with the walljumping and moves very fast) is still easy to kill as a marine.
The mechanic allows skulks to build up a lot of speed and reduce the distance between themselves and marines quickly. However, this makes little difference to very good marines. The skulk is required to approach you indirectly (to avoid being an easy kill), so as a marine you simply sidestep away from the side he approaches, causing the skulk to miss you. Now the skulk lands and turns, getting back to 7 speed, and the advantage is still with the marine.
Has there been any though into how the system evens the balance between skilled marines/skulks, and if so, what is the thinking?
I'll stick to leap then.
I entirely agree with the whole jump off a wall, obtain speed boost idea. Its intuitive, any new player will immediately catch on and figure out whats going on with that and how to do it. Skilled play will favor tactical ability over mastering timing.
Best of all, how amazingly skulky is leaping from walls? Incredibly right? Hopefully this will put him more on even grounds against marines, being able to approach with fast speed from any angle.
wasnt all this change in skulk movement directly from implementing air control? shouldnt more air control just fix that scenario/problem you described? if the marine moves out of the way at the last second, the "skilled" skulk should be able to to have some air control to allow for that fast reflex adjustment.
maybe if you tie <b>more air control</b> to <b>fast skulk speed</b>, you would have an even more rewarding system that closes that gap?
You cannot give skulk more air control, it already has the maximum air control possible, namely you redirect your velocity in the view direction immediately. Skulk in the air plays a bit like a gliding lerk.
Doesn't other games do the exact opposite, the faster you go the less air control you get ? I was trying warsow, and when you start bunny hoping it becomes hard to turn, so there is a bunch of tricks to do sharp turns without loosing your velocity.
Are you blind? After the wall jump is complete what do you think skie is doing to maintain speed? Oh, ya, he is kangaroo hopping... stop with the immersion breaking whine. You know what immersion gets us? Stupid game breaking power nodes that make pretty lights flicker but ruin gameplay. GG.