ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1918199:date=Mar 26 2012, 07:32 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 26 2012, 07:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918199"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>such a vital piece required for winning for this team is so easily nullified</b> - it needs to be addressed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If there is even a single marine in the area, attacking/nullifying the PG isnt possible.
The only time the PG becomes easily nullified is when:
a) The area is so unimportant there are no marines around.
b) Your team just got your asses handed to you.
I don't see why, in either of those cases, the PG should do your job for you.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1918710:date=Mar 27 2012, 12:05 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 27 2012, 12:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You want to build just a phasegate and expect it to be strong. That shouldn't happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, i expect it to not be nullified so easily, as i said. Else, its by definition a "waste" of res and effort. This doesn't mean it needs to be "strong". in fact i never said this word anywhere, so perhaps you are reading the wrong post?
What i have said is, like anything in this game, it needs to be able to be contested. Hives dont go down without contention. power nodes can be contested,just as RTs. every structure and player works this way. Except the PG. Hence, once again, the nickname of "Meatgrinder".. marines don't have the opportunity to even fight for it, and it is not economical to set up turret farms - <b>TRY IT</b> in any competitive setting! The only reason you can get away with it in pubs is because of difference in skill and therefore the timing needs, such as Armor 2 , aren't as important so you are able to go early robo if you so please.
<!--quoteo(post=1918717:date=Mar 27 2012, 12:19 PM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Mar 27 2012, 12:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918717"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If there is even a single marine in the area, attacking/nullifying the PG isnt possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> very true, this is why i say that a marine needs to get through to be able to fight for it at least. what you are suggesting there is that a commander tells a marine to stay in a room and gaurd a PG for the round. have you tried this? not only does it remove one player from the frontlines (20% loss in fighting force for competitive) but who wants this boring job? Also a single marine can be taken down easily, so its just as similar a waste as placing a single turret.
<b>I argue for a chance to contest the loss of the PG, as you have with any other structure/player in the game or as an alternative make it economically viable/practical to be proactively protecting it without the use of players.</b> (what good is a counter to alien mobility if you just lost 20% of your fighting force??)
Sadly, one can see clearly who only plays marine and who only plays alien, in this thread.
You all have to understand the position of the other one. There are some really easy facts: <ul><li> Aliens need a chance to get rid of a pg. At the moment the pg is NOT to fragile. They are defendable, but you have to defend them. With 7sec spawn timer, the marine flow will make the PG undestroyable, if applied some of your ideas.</li><li> Running through a PG and dying instantly without being able to do anything about it, is NOT fun! Its bad game design.</li></ul>
The second one is the main problem we need a solution for. It is NOT, that a forward base is to fragile. Play alien and you will learn that! If marines can't defend their forward bases (with guards, mines or sentries) they deserve to lose this forward base. It's ridiculous to call all the 3 possibilities to defend it, weak. It is bad teamplay, when marines doesn't defend their forward bases. And the aliens SHOULD in any case be able to get an undefended forward base down. Many of you marine-players-only seem to forget this. So to the real problem: The meatgrinder! The solution to that should in <b>NO WAY</b>: <ul><li>change the balance of the PG and forward bases, as it is right now</li><li>nullify the ability to destroy the pg if found defenseless</li></ul>
The here are some ideas: <ul><li>Give the incoming marine 1sec in a warp tunnel before he arrives, so he can render the new environment, will cut the half second you stand still, because your pc is calculating like mad.</li><li>Give the incoming marine the same momentum he entered the PG and make him no-clip with other entities, (not the map!) until he leaves the direct radius of the PG. This way, the alien can't make you immobile, with simply standing in the PG.</li><li>Make a nice looking red warning-light on the PG, which activates when the target PG is under attack.</li></ul>
The first two points could give the marines enough advantage to get back an attacked pg, but will not rob the aliens of any way, to get forward bases down. The meatgrinder is solved by the last one, because you know that you risk your life when going through.
Oh and to this: <!--quoteo(post=1918721:date=Mar 27 2012, 09:29 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 27 2012, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>I argue for a chance to contest the loss of the PG, as you have with any other structure/player in the game or as an alternative make it economically viable/practical to be proactively protecting it without the use of players.</b> (what good is a counter to alien mobility if you just lost 20% of your fighting force??)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
PGs ARE a viable tactic and they ARE defend-able. If this would not be the case, nobody would use pgs. But at least in the games I played, the pg got used... every single game marines using phase gates. So they must be balanced and worth it. You are arguing that it is bad that the aliens can bring them down. That is simply wrong. If the phase gate is too costly or too easily destroyed, no commander would use them. But they do. And it works. Sure, not 100% of the time. But that is the whole point. the aliens need a way to get them down. All the more, when they are undefended.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1918944:date=Mar 28 2012, 05:02 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Mar 28 2012, 05:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are arguing that it is bad that the aliens can bring them down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nope. never said this. quote me if you can find it.
<b>"I argue for a chance to <u>contest </u>the loss of the PG, as you have with any other structure/player in the game"</b>
your solution is the same one i posted on this very page, btw. i obviously agree with it :)
I was thinking about phase gate utility, and I came up with an idea of having a nano-shield placed upon a phase gate (when an alien sees the nano-shield (he better run)), then when marines run through they would come out the otherside with a nano-shield (some sort of temporary nano-shielding phasegating tech, would last as long as the current duration of the nano-shield of the marine going through, so last marine through the nanoshield gate will barely get any shield), this would be the technique to stop aliens chomping all over the gates, of course you could only do it a limited amount of times until you can't nano-shield anymore.
Problems with this then is nano-shield phase-gate spamming then, could be a useful strat though at the same time.
<!--quoteo(post=1919247:date=Mar 29 2012, 05:56 AM:name=Luitjens)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luitjens @ Mar 29 2012, 05:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919247"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was thinking about phase gate utility, and I came up with an idea of having a nano-shield placed upon a phase gate (when an alien sees the nano-shield (he better run)), then when marines run through they would come out the otherside with a nano-shield (some sort of temporary nano-shielding phasegating tech, would last as long as the current duration of the nano-shield of the marine going through, so last marine through the nanoshield gate will barely get any shield), this would be the technique to stop aliens chomping all over the gates, of course you could only do it a limited amount of times until you can't nano-shield anymore.
Problems with this then is nano-shield phase-gate spamming then, could be a useful strat though at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And how are the aliens supposed to get any phase gate down, when fighting against only a little bit aware marines? One marine is enough. He respawns after 7 seconds and will come back through the shielded pg to kill the alien, even if it won the first fight. Not to mention whats up with more than one marine coming to defend an attacked pg.
Again: If the marines don't defend their pg, they deserve to lose it. Having the possibility to simply run through a pg, being shielded and kill the alien on the other side, robs the aliens the possibility to bring pgs down.
@ironhorse: Ok, I generalized a bit to much. The marines should have a way to rescue an attacked pg. And they have already a chance to get an attacked pg back. The only problem is, that it involves the meat grinder, which is not fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1919325:date=Mar 29 2012, 07:59 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Mar 29 2012, 07:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919325"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And how are the aliens supposed to get any phase gate down, when fighting against only a little bit aware marines? One marine is enough. He respawns after 7 seconds and will come back through the shielded pg to kill the alien, even if it won the first fight. Not to mention whats up with more than one marine coming to defend an attacked pg.
Again: If the marines don't defend their pg, they deserve to lose it. Having the possibility to simply run through a pg, being shielded and kill the alien on the other side, robs the aliens the possibility to bring pgs down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, see.. you can't nano-shield forever, so you get as much uses as you can spend your energy. (50Per shield)
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1919325:date=Mar 29 2012, 05:59 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Mar 29 2012, 05:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919325"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b> The marines should have a way to rescue an attacked pg.</b> And they have already a chance to get an attacked pg back. The only problem is, that it involves the meat grinder, which is not<strike> fun</strike> <i>effective.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> fixed. Also,I'm glad we're in agreement. :)
Yeah I would hate to see telefragging in NS2. I think the only things that should be done with phase gates is any camping aliens should be pushed by the marines hitboxes out of the way when they teleport through, not so far away they are not able to fight. Another thing is they need to prevent marines from getting stuck when phasing through with other marines, which is a big deal breaker for defending phase gates. One last thing is marines should have a reduced damage in the first 0.1 - 0.2 seconds after phasing through, this helps for many players who experience a lag hitch when using a phase gate as their computer updates to the new surroundings, and really 0.2 seconds is only enough time for an alien who was already biting a phase gate to accidentally bite a marine who is phasing through which isn't exactly fair.
Comments
If there is even a single marine in the area, attacking/nullifying the PG isnt possible.
The only time the PG becomes easily nullified is when:
a) The area is so unimportant there are no marines around.
b) Your team just got your asses handed to you.
I don't see why, in either of those cases, the PG should do your job for you.
No, i expect it to not be nullified so easily, as i said. Else, its by definition a "waste" of res and effort.
This doesn't mean it needs to be "strong". in fact i never said this word anywhere, so perhaps you are reading the wrong post?
What i have said is, like anything in this game, it needs to be able to be contested. Hives dont go down without contention. power nodes can be contested,just as RTs. every structure and player works this way.
Except the PG. Hence, once again, the nickname of "Meatgrinder".. marines don't have the opportunity to even fight for it, and it is not economical to set up turret farms - <b>TRY IT</b> in any competitive setting! The only reason you can get away with it in pubs is because of difference in skill and therefore the timing needs, such as Armor 2 , aren't as important so you are able to go early robo if you so please.
<!--quoteo(post=1918717:date=Mar 27 2012, 12:19 PM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Mar 27 2012, 12:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918717"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If there is even a single marine in the area, attacking/nullifying the PG isnt possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
very true, this is why i say that a marine needs to get through to be able to fight for it at least.
what you are suggesting there is that a commander tells a marine to stay in a room and gaurd a PG for the round. have you tried this?
not only does it remove one player from the frontlines (20% loss in fighting force for competitive) but who wants this boring job? Also a single marine can be taken down easily, so its just as similar a waste as placing a single turret.
<b>I argue for a chance to contest the loss of the PG, as you have with any other structure/player in the game or as an alternative make it economically viable/practical to be proactively protecting it without the use of players.</b> (what good is a counter to alien mobility if you just lost 20% of your fighting force??)
You all have to understand the position of the other one. There are some really easy facts:
<ul><li> Aliens need a chance to get rid of a pg. At the moment the pg is NOT to fragile. They are defendable, but you have to defend them. With 7sec spawn timer, the marine flow will make the PG undestroyable, if applied some of your ideas.</li><li> Running through a PG and dying instantly without being able to do anything about it, is NOT fun! Its bad game design.</li></ul>
The second one is the main problem we need a solution for. It is NOT, that a forward base is to fragile. Play alien and you will learn that! If marines can't defend their forward bases (with guards, mines or sentries) they deserve to lose this forward base. It's ridiculous to call all the 3 possibilities to defend it, weak. It is bad teamplay, when marines doesn't defend their forward bases. And the aliens SHOULD in any case be able to get an undefended forward base down. Many of you marine-players-only seem to forget this. So to the real problem: The meatgrinder! The solution to that should in <b>NO WAY</b>:
<ul><li>change the balance of the PG and forward bases, as it is right now</li><li>nullify the ability to destroy the pg if found defenseless</li></ul>
The here are some ideas:
<ul><li>Give the incoming marine 1sec in a warp tunnel before he arrives, so he can render the new environment, will cut the half second you stand still, because your pc is calculating like mad.</li><li>Give the incoming marine the same momentum he entered the PG and make him no-clip with other entities, (not the map!) until he leaves the direct radius of the PG. This way, the alien can't make you immobile, with simply standing in the PG.</li><li>Make a nice looking red warning-light on the PG, which activates when the target PG is under attack.</li></ul>
The first two points could give the marines enough advantage to get back an attacked pg, but will not rob the aliens of any way, to get forward bases down. The meatgrinder is solved by the last one, because you know that you risk your life when going through.
Oh and to this:
<!--quoteo(post=1918721:date=Mar 27 2012, 09:29 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 27 2012, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>I argue for a chance to contest the loss of the PG, as you have with any other structure/player in the game or as an alternative make it economically viable/practical to be proactively protecting it without the use of players.</b> (what good is a counter to alien mobility if you just lost 20% of your fighting force??)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
PGs ARE a viable tactic and they ARE defend-able. If this would not be the case, nobody would use pgs. But at least in the games I played, the pg got used... every single game marines using phase gates. So they must be balanced and worth it. You are arguing that it is bad that the aliens can bring them down. That is simply wrong. If the phase gate is too costly or too easily destroyed, no commander would use them. But they do. And it works. Sure, not 100% of the time. But that is the whole point. the aliens need a way to get them down. All the more, when they are undefended.
nope. never said this. quote me if you can find it.
<b>"I argue for a chance to <u>contest </u>the loss of the PG, as you have with any other structure/player in the game"</b>
your solution is the same one i posted on this very page, btw.
i obviously agree with it :)
(good write up, too btw.)
Problems with this then is nano-shield phase-gate spamming then, could be a useful strat though at the same time.
Problems with this then is nano-shield phase-gate spamming then, could be a useful strat though at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And how are the aliens supposed to get any phase gate down, when fighting against only a little bit aware marines?
One marine is enough. He respawns after 7 seconds and will come back through the shielded pg to kill the alien, even if it won the first fight. Not to mention whats up with more than one marine coming to defend an attacked pg.
Again: If the marines don't defend their pg, they deserve to lose it. Having the possibility to simply run through a pg, being shielded and kill the alien on the other side, robs the aliens the possibility to bring pgs down.
@ironhorse:
Ok, I generalized a bit to much. The marines should have a way to rescue an attacked pg. And they have already a chance to get an attacked pg back. The only problem is, that it involves the meat grinder, which is not fun.
Thats the LAST thing marines need
One marine is enough. He respawns after 7 seconds and will come back through the shielded pg to kill the alien, even if it won the first fight. Not to mention whats up with more than one marine coming to defend an attacked pg.
Again: If the marines don't defend their pg, they deserve to lose it. Having the possibility to simply run through a pg, being shielded and kill the alien on the other side, robs the aliens the possibility to bring pgs down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, see.. you can't nano-shield forever, so you get as much uses as you can spend your energy. (50Per shield)
fixed.
Also,I'm glad we're in agreement. :)