Nerf ARCs
bsebaz
Join Date: 2012-04-08 Member: 150110Members
Join Date: 2012-04-08 Member: 150110Members
ever since gorges lost bilebomb and traded for a bad replacement on lerks ARKs have been dominating alien teams. They are to easy to spam even with one extractor, and aliens can't kill 10 of them before they take out a whole base. I was thinking maybe make them weaker once they are deployed, due to the fact that a lot of the interior is exposed, or just limit them so there can only be 2 out at anyone time. Please look at this problem.
Comments
This.
Also lerk bile bomb destroys arcs now.
I normally lose 2-4 arc turrets just on the way to the hive, not to mention 2-4 more while they are killing the hive.
And the key factor was definitely Bile Bomb. If you drop it in a cluster of the arks, which they tend to do before shooting, you do alot of dmg for the energy spent.
If you have two hives, and 5 arks goes for one hive and 10 marines for the other hive, can you save both?
50 tres for five ARCS is 6 RT minutes. Assuming the marines control 3 RT's, they are going to have one 5 ARC train going every two minutes.
Having to fight off 5 ARCS every two minutes as well as the marine team is going to take a lot of effort for the aliens.
It still would be an absolute def killer. And it's fine by me if the arc role changes from "send it in without marines to rape any hive" to "send it in to kill def so marines can push and eventually kill a hive if no aliens protect it".
With stationary siege cannons like in NS1 the Marine team has to commit themselves. Either the little siege base goes up, or it gets taken down by Aliens. From dropping the turret factory to building n siege cannons there's a time window for the aliens to react to the threat. Marines have to hold the mini outpost, or the investment is gone. There's no pulling back.
ARCs are a bit like building 10 siege cannons safely in your main base and then teleporting them to a hive of your choice. The buildup time window gets removed. Traveling ARCs are not easy to take down and ARCs seem to have a lot of hit points. But making them more fragile wouldn't solve the problem. It would only lead to the commander making even more ARCs before sending them out all at once. The underlying problem is being able to have the buildup phase happen safely in the main base.
With stationary siege cannons like in NS1 the Marine team has to commit themselves. Either the little siege base goes up, or it gets taken down by Aliens. From dropping the turret factory to building n siege cannons there's a time window for the aliens to react to the threat. Marines have to hold the mini outpost, or the investment is gone. There's no pulling back.
ARCs are a bit like building 10 siege cannons safely in your main base and then teleporting them to a hive of your choice. The buildup time window gets removed. Traveling ARCs are not easy to take down and ARCs seem to have a lot of hit points. But making them more fragile wouldn't solve the problem. It would only lead to the commander making even more ARCs before sending them out all at once. The underlying problem is being able to have the buildup phase happen safely in the main base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another underlying problem is that the aliens have no way to take out structures (including ARCS) efficiently. And they have no way of taking out structures efficiently using structures. So aliens can't defeat t-res invested in ARCs using t-res.
Late game, marine t-res is worth a ######load more than alien t-res. Whips and crags don't really cut it, especially considering that 20 marine t-res worth of ARCs wipe out any amount of alien t-res worth of alien structures in 10 sec.
This is not necessarily a bad thing though - that alien t-res are not worth much means that alien p-res can be worth more (ie, alien players are more powerful than marine players because marine t-res is worth more than alien t-res). Now, I don't know if that is an _intended_ design, or it just happens ... but its there.
Also lerk bile bomb destroys arcs now.
I normally lose 2-4 arc turrets just on the way to the hive, not to mention 2-4 more while they are killing the hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerks shouldn't be able to bilebomb while you are moving them to the hive, you should have marines covering them.
Or simply make aliens able to destroy them again. Give gorge back his bilebomb.
With stationary siege cannons like in NS1 the Marine team has to commit themselves. Either the little siege base goes up, or it gets taken down by Aliens. From dropping the turret factory to building n siege cannons there's a time window for the aliens to react to the threat. Marines have to hold the mini outpost, or the investment is gone. There's no pulling back.
ARCs are a bit like building 10 siege cannons safely in your main base and then teleporting them to a hive of your choice. The buildup time window gets removed. Traveling ARCs are not easy to take down and ARCs seem to have a lot of hit points. But making them more fragile wouldn't solve the problem. It would only lead to the commander making even more ARCs before sending them out all at once. The underlying problem is being able to have the buildup phase happen safely in the main base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Solid analysis.
The trade-off between meds/ammo and building up a huge number of these duders in base would lead to a weakened field presence of the marine team and therefore less map control/economy.
edit: although field armories throw a spanner in that plan. They make it very easy for low cost high effectiveness defence. If there were more of a downside to using armories to heal up such as a slower rate of healing or not restoring armour then it'd be OK, maybe?!?!
Also, making sure the alien team have a decent mid-game all-round AoE attack would help by at least punishing commanders who stack all their ARCs and marines in one spot. I'm not sure how well the lerk currently fills this position?
Having them be more expensive and/or making them take a lot more damage when deployed would help.
Hardcapping should be a last resort IMO, it's better to just find a proper way to reduce their effectiveness when fielded en masse. IMO just reducing their survivability would already go a long way, you should not be able to just throw a large amount of unprotected ARCs at an enemy hive< They should always require some form of escort.
I wouldn't mind seeing the power pack being present as a requirement for a deployed ARC to fire. That way there is some reliance on the marines.
I wouldn't mind seeing the power pack being present as a requirement for a deployed ARC to fire. That way there is some reliance on the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed. My big issue is that it always turns into 10 arcs, alone, rushing the hive. Marine support should be mandatory.
Power packs tying 1 marine to 1 arc sounds weird, but may be one of the better ideas. Prevents overwelming arc spam in small games (10 arc spam in a 5v5), and demands marines to escort the arcs.
something that NS1 did fairly cut and dry.
Good Point
There are things about both sides that can seem "invincible" when you are on the loosing team...
It does seem that ARCS have too much health for sure though.
Er, yes it would. I manage just fine with 2 arcs, use them like you used to use siege cannons, they are easily the most powerful anti-structure force in the game.
2 ARCs would get blown to pieces by lerk bile bombs unless you devoted your entire team to do nothing but sit there and escort them with welders.
a limit of maybe 5 would be more reasonable than 2
I also support the idea OP that once the ARC is in siege mode it should take more damage as the inside of the machine is exposed.
As of now it feels like a couple of skulks can hardly make a dent before they get to the hive. And if there are five, with a few marines guarding, you can forget about it unless you have enough lerks and onos already out.
I'd propose that if the health doesn't decrease, then the speed should. These things should crawl.
Honestly everything in NS2 feels so much faster. Hives go down before you can even respond even when the marines don't have ARCs. Maybe the levels are too small? But as an alien, I rarely feel safe in my own hive at any point. Maybe things will be different with the movement chamber back in? I'm not one to say NS1 was perfect, but I feel like it had the pacing right. You had time to set up an ambush with a couple of skulks. You had time to run around the map and find nooks and crannies that could be fun vantage points or places to set up a ninja base as a marine. You had time to breathe.
And to get back on point, everything (research, ARCs, hives, sprint, etc) just needs to slow down just a bit. Take it easy. Or at least make the hallways longer and the rooms bigger so ARCs aren't so devastating.
But my observation is this...
The ARC used to be easy to take down by skulks.
To use it marines had to guard it with their lives.
When executed it was pretty awesome....the aliens would try to destroy the ARCs and the marines would fling their bodies in front of them.
It was exciting on both sides.
Now the ARC is tougher and harder to take down (specialized unit + special attack bilebomb)
The marines don't have to guard it.
Commanders just build a fleet and march them in.
I preferred it the other way. ARC was super powerful but fragile. It balanced itself.
It is almost like the ARC should show up with a blinking sign (sort of like the build me signs)
that says "GUARD THIS".
<i><b>WRONG!
</b></i>
Seriously, try it on a server with people who have played the game more than once.
Even without lerk bile bomb, 2 arcs would easily be taken down.