I agree, a big thing is probably the lack of alien tech in general. RTs are currently far more important than a second hive, and aside from an initial upgrade chamber there is nothing for the Khamm to spend resources on. If a marine comm loses RTs and has to replace them (granted he does have the ability to recycle them, so he won't always lose the full res) he receives a much bigger blow to his teching. (Since that is res he could have otherwise spent on shotguns, or upgraded armory, or phase gates, etc..)
Adding in a commander unlock for fades and onos on one hive, would be a big step IMO. This way aliens can only get 1-hive fade and onos when their comm has unlocked them, meaning he also can't afford to lose too many RTS that he then has to replace if he wants to quickly get 1-hive fades out. (And it gives him a strategic choice to make, adds more to do for the khamm in general as well)
It would also go a long way in equalising the marine and alien tech trees more, since it makes little sense that marines have to unlock p.res investments with T.res first where as aliens just get them off the bat.
I think the idea of making the alien buildings, such as cysts, RTs, etc take longer to build unless a gorge is pressing E next to them would be good. That's how it used to be in NS1 and I feel that way it would help make some of the aliens from hording their resources until they can Lerk, Fade, or Onos and thus relieve some pressure off tech aliens. However, the times are up for testing to get the correct time. Even though I feel the skill of the team as a whole can change these results. For example, if the Alien Kham is very unskilled, then the marines can easily win with quick upgrades, but it works both ways.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1921795:date=Apr 4 2012, 05:56 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Apr 4 2012, 05:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921795"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure fades might be better than they were, but they are still OP as hell. The biggest issue is the lack of skill needed to play them / low skill ceiling. If I can go on a pub server and go 50-0 without even trying then something is wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Part of this problem occurred in short because of changes to shotgun, the anti fade weapon. it now requires 3 direct point blank shotgun hits to kill a fade instead of 2. The fade definitely needs to be more fragile, requiring two hits again, it just felt like it was the sweet spot for such an effective hit and run life form.
The lower Pres change is something i have recommended with other Playtesters after an organized game the other day. So far everyone is on board with it. Nothing but benefits to come from this change, as far as i can predict. (As long as gorge gets "Free" things)
I want to change my server's setting as well, but only for scrimming/testing purposes with a password. Our clan has two servers, -[420]- public, and -[420]- scrim/pub. I can change the scrim server's Pres if any other clans want to test it out with us?
@Grissi : that was a big issue a playtester brought up after said scrim. i think the proposed changes of requiring a gorge to build a dropped harvester would help alleviate this issue somewhat. But as for the "Mass Tech" issue... we must find a way to implement more res sinks, and more methods to EARN res. (not just waiting)
<!--quoteo(post=1921877:date=Apr 5 2012, 06:08 AM:name=StanMarsh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (StanMarsh @ Apr 5 2012, 06:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921877"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the idea of making the alien buildings, such as cysts, RTs, etc take longer to build unless a gorge is pressing E next to them would be good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1. i think this might work very well and go some way towards making catalyze remotely interesting in terms of increasing the opportunity cost of saving hive energy for that 2nd hive catalyze dump.
agree on necessity to make alien gorges building stuff
the other difference between marine and aliens right now is that marines have to go out and build the res nodes, while aliens are on full attack
that is why early combat is always centered around somewhere near marine base (either base or 1st res point)
and once the 'res node trading' part of the game happens.. aliens are free to just stay attacking while marines need to go back and rebuild the res nodes, so they are always slower
nadyliJoin Date: 2007-11-01Member: 62791Members, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
Marines have a big problem facing even lower number of fades because of their teleport instead of ns1-style blink which makes lmgs really weak and the fact that it takes level 2 armor instead of level 1 to mitigate 2 swipes. As for the late game marines struggling against the onos, it is because we are missing maneuverable jetpack (current jp flight implementation seems like a joke) hmg combination that could keep the onos at bay himself like in ns1. Also the early game is generally garbage for the marines because of hitreg issues but that's completely different story alltogether and not necessarily design issue.
Also a suggestion for the topic being discussed currently; have the gorge drop resource towers (extractors nowadays?) that would mimic the commander/player relationship from marines but in alien everyone-works-for-the-same-goal way of thinking and now we would have a new pres dumb for early game. Commander would still be dropping the Cysts for clarification.
<!--quoteo(post=1923555:date=Apr 9 2012, 12:25 PM:name=zh`)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zh` @ Apr 9 2012, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1923555"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for the late game marines struggling against the onos, it is because we are missing maneuverable jetpack (current jp flight implementation seems like a joke) hmg combination that could keep the onos at bay himself like in ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I read somewhere that it's planned for JPs not to be able to pick up EXO weapons.. so there will not be a minigun jetpacker.
nadyliJoin Date: 2007-11-01Member: 62791Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1923568:date=Apr 9 2012, 08:45 PM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Apr 9 2012, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1923568"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I read somewhere that it's planned for JPs not to be able to pick up EXO weapons.. so there will not be a minigun jetpacker.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah unfortunately it seems that the non-exosuit marines are lacking a higher tier weapon by design which could've balanced current situation.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for the late game marines struggling against the onos, it is because we are missing maneuverable jetpack (current jp flight implementation seems like a joke) hmg combination that could keep the onos at bay himself like in ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think it has more to do with 1-hive onos just being too strong and late-game onos no doubt going to be too weak.
It doesn't help that hit registration is probably the worst it's ever been, I have put the better part of an entire LMG mag into a skulk before and it still won't die on multiple occasions, and they all definitely feel like they take WAY more than 10 bullets to kill. I was playing with GORGEous yesterday, he landed 3 dead on shots from a shotty into a fade, I landed 2 and the fade still escaped. Lerks are just godawful to try and kill.
So not only do aliens seem to be taking like 2x+ the bullets they actually need to die, the death animation/feedback that you've actually killed the alien is still slow as well. I sometimes run out of bullets shooting a skulk, but a half second later the skulk will die and the game will say I've killed it, apparently a second or two ago.
Ammo conservation as a marine is impossible at this point. And I'm fairly certain as games progress and the server tickrates start going down the issue is only exacerbated. If those issues are ever fixed I think aliens will seem a lot less OP.
<!--quoteo(post=1923586:date=Apr 9 2012, 02:44 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Apr 9 2012, 02:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1923586"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't help that hit registration is probably the worst it's ever been, I have put the better part of an entire LMG mag into a skulk before and it still won't die on multiple occasions, and they all definitely feel like they take WAY more than 10 bullets to kill. I was playing with GORGEous yesterday, he landed 3 dead on shots from a shotty into a fade, I landed 2 and the fade still escaped. Lerks are just godawful to try and kill.
So not only do aliens seem to be taking like 2x+ the bullets they actually need to die, the death animation/feedback that you've actually killed the alien is still slow as well. I sometimes run out of bullets shooting a skulk, but a half second later the skulk will die and the game will say I've killed it, apparently a second or two ago.
Ammo conservation as a marine is impossible at this point. And I'm fairly certain as games progress and the server tickrates start going down the issue is only exacerbated. If those issues are ever fixed I think aliens will seem a lot less OP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only time I see hit registration work is when aliens stay completely still, such as when they eat an rt or a power node. I'm always surprised how few bullets it actually takes to kill a skulk and they usually don't even have time to react before they die.
Yet when aliens are in full speed and jumping around, hit registration is thrown out the window. Don't get me started with lerks and bile bomb...
lol today i was typing and a skulk came and attacked me frontally, i had a shotgun and in a panic i just fired blindly, as the skulk had already moved behind me. 1 shot kill, facing completely away from him. LOL.
I agree, lowering the pres to 10 when gorges can build things for free would be good seeing as gorges don't need the extra 15 res to be an resource tower since they aren't able to anymore.
Another change I was thinking of is possibly bringing back RFK (Res for kill) though in a VERY, very small amount. I have a bad memory but I believe the old system was one res for one kill or something drastic like that? I do remember spikes in pres in those that had a ton of kills, but having it at maybe 0.20, 0.15, or 0.10 pres for one kill would make it less game-changing. I know for sure NS1 had a RFK system that gave a small amount of res for a kill.
Currently, the only thing that discourages mass deaths in one team is the wait in the respawn pool, though this is fixed with the beacon from the observatory and the mass egg spawn when a certain amount of aliens are dead with no eggs. Therefore, the team with the most mobility (aliens) should be able to win as they can get into combat and defend structures faster than the marines with no fear of letting the enemy team get ahead by dieing.
The system would also encourage teams to group up and take objectives rather than going solo (unless the job requires stealth, then going alone is fine). For example, if the marine team has taken down the enemy hive to 15% due to a previous siege on the alien base, regrouping and starting ANOTHER attack on the same hive (or another hive if there is one) would be better than being blinded by the fact the alien hive is very low and going in one by one to take it down ASSUMING that the alien team has responded with a crag drop (if there is none) and a gorge to heal the hive back up.
Some may argue this lets those that are ahead stay ahead. Sure, those with more kills would be ahead in Pres, but if the gained PRes is so small that it is a very insignificant matter in determining who would win the game, then it would benefit to the game more by causing players to interact with one another. An onos that rushes the marine base with maybe a lerk isn't too fruitful as opposed to an onos, a lerk, a gorge, and a skulk. A pack of 2-3 skulks would complete more objectives than a lone skulk.
Others may argue that a fade can easily get kills. Well, a fade IS the SECOND MOST EXPENSIVE LIFEFORM, so if it can't 1v2 marines with lmgs, there's something wrong. Also, if the pres is changed to 10, we might see fades when marines have maybe armor 2 weapon 1 or viceversa, and two marines with shotguns should have a slight chance of taking a fade down at that point assuming the marines are able to react when the fade does show up, encouraging the fade to maybe go in with another lifeform.
Finally, if you DO get 50 kills as a fade, if the RFK was at 0.20, that's a 10 increase in pres. I'd say if you're able to get that many kills as a fade, you should already be ahead of the enemy team.
So I saw Charlie give some hints to what to expect in B205. Early gorge(s) will be important to speed alien expansion (Structures build slow by themselves)! This is one of many things he said would be coming to address alien expansion speed, and their ability to expand quickly while pressuring marines on their base. I am incredibly pleased to hear this and eagerly awaiting the next patch!
This, together with a deepening of the alien tech tree and the khamm function in general will go a long way in addressing the imbalance as it stands today. Great job UWE!
@op & @devs i suggested this WAY back in b150:s in this thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111628" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=111628</a> and here (later in the same thread) i clarified a little more detailed what my idea was: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111628&view=findpost&p=1811889" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1811889</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1925574:date=Apr 15 2012, 07:29 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 15 2012, 07:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So I saw Charlie give some hints to what to expect in B205. Early gorge(s) will be important to speed alien expansion (Structures build slow by themselves)! This is one of many things he said would be coming to address alien expansion speed, and their ability to expand quickly while pressuring marines on their base. I am incredibly pleased to hear this and eagerly awaiting the next patch!
This, together with a deepening of the alien tech tree and the khamm function in general will go a long way in addressing the imbalance as it stands today. Great job UWE!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the Gorge is only going to be used for increasing the rate at which things build, I fear it will still not nearly be enough. The problem right now is not necessarily map control in the form of the Alien Commander spreading cysts and buildings across the map like a plague; it's that the NS1 early game resource sink for aliens (multiple players dropping upgrade chambers, RTs, and Hives) has been all shoved off onto the Alien Commander position.
So on a team of 8 players this means in NS2 that right now 7 will have no reason to spend their personal resources until they reach a higher lifeform, whereas in NS1 you maybe had 4~ Gorge early for upgrade chambers and RTs (and then maybe 2-3 go back to Skulk). If the Gorge is only used for helping things build faster in the newest patch then you will probably see one early gorge seeing as how most Alien Commanders only expand in one direction initially.
The problem with any player wanting to willingly drop resources on Gorge structures right now is that for any cost the mini-cysts are only worth dropping for positioning Hydras or reconnecting the cyst chain, and Hydras are a stationary defense meaning it's a gamble if you invest largely in an area that never sees action. In NS1 that Gorge <b>had</b> to drop upgrade chambers; they <b>had</b> to drop RTs, they <b>had</b> to drop Hives <u>if they wanted to have their team win the game</u>. In NS2 the only things they can drop are not important enough or don't have enough impact on the game to make someone give serious thought to investing personal resources over going back to Skulk, retaining mobility, and saving up for a higher lifeform.
So if Gorges are needed to speed up Alien Commander dropped structures, I can see maybe one or two Gorges early game depending on if the AC expands in more than one general direction. As long as mini-cysts cost res I don't see them being used for anything other than being placed for Hydra positioning (I'd love to see the mini-cyst become preferred as the main source of infestation spread; it would make Gorges far more valuable). As long as Hydras are the Gorges main resource sink, and Marines teams can generally ignore them for the poor resource:performance ratio, I don't see many players willingly investing in a poor static defense as the only means of a resource sink. Finally, as long as there is no reason for Aliens to be spending their own res early you will continue to see three-quarters of the Alien team still go Fade or Onos shortly into the game.
Some good points there, as far as I know they were deliberating removing p.res costs from all gorge structures as well, so we may even see that next patch already. (Hydras would then be capped based on the amount of hives) This would mean you'd have at least 1 - 2 gorges around all the time, like you did in NS1, healing and keeping hydras/cysts/goowalls up and running. The only problem I personally see with that is that these gorges will be floating in p.res later in the game, which means you will have to deal with another onos later in the game still. (Where as in NS 1 the player who saved for a hive or built defenses would not have resources to go onos later in the game)
Either way, the gorge is definitely going to become a lot more important. In addition, once the alien commander gets more t.res and p.res sinks, he will be less able to spam cysts like he can currently and will have to rely on gorges if he wants to spend his p.res elsehwere. Gorge-commander interaction will then become even more important, everybody wins!
<!--quoteo(post=1921424:date=Apr 3 2012, 02:10 PM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Apr 3 2012, 02:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For example if one team is weaker, competitive players are more likely to play that team (to practice where it is needed most).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Truly competitive players would choose the team with the most likelihood of winning (play to win).
Performance is pretty decent early on in the game (where aliens being OP is the most apparent), the hit registration is still not perfect, so that's going to help as well but I sincerely doubt any performance or hit reg improvement is going to drastically alter the balance between aliens and marines.
congrats, this thread is listed as one source of the upcoming changes in b205 :) <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i60JOXEKEi2L4XzrWiYk15-OO9bCBadUh3ZR7mhcC3c/edit" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i60JOXE...3ZR7mhcC3c/edit</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1921400:date=Apr 3 2012, 01:05 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Apr 3 2012, 01:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921400"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the problem is that fixing as a goal to get 50% winrate is a very ill defined problem. Let me explain.
The winrate depends on a large number of parameters : skulk health, res influx, lmg damage, tech cost, etc.
Taken alone almost every one of this parameters allows to get a 50% winrate. The reason why this is true is the following. Take the lmg damage as an example. Put it to zero, the marine winrate drop to zero. Put it to infinity (one shot everything), the marine winrate goes to 100%. By a continuity assumption there is a lmg damage value where the winrate is 50% (it cannot go from 0 to 100 without passing by 50).
The same is true for almost every other parameter. What this means is that saying "parameter X is responsible for the non-50% winrate" is meaningless since it is trivially true for any parameter.
I don't go into combination of parameters (e.g. for two parameters there is probably a curve of 50% winrate, for three a surface, etc.) but the problem become even more degenerated.
So, what we need right know is more, clearly stated, balance criteria, in addition to the 50% winrate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I kind of wish this was the start of the thread.
Comments
Adding in a commander unlock for fades and onos on one hive, would be a big step IMO. This way aliens can only get 1-hive fade and onos when their comm has unlocked them, meaning he also can't afford to lose too many RTS that he then has to replace if he wants to quickly get 1-hive fades out. (And it gives him a strategic choice to make, adds more to do for the khamm in general as well)
It would also go a long way in equalising the marine and alien tech trees more, since it makes little sense that marines have to unlock p.res investments with T.res first where as aliens just get them off the bat.
Part of this problem occurred in short because of changes to shotgun, the anti fade weapon. it now requires 3 direct point blank shotgun hits to kill a fade instead of 2. The fade definitely needs to be more fragile, requiring two hits again, it just felt like it was the sweet spot for such an effective hit and run life form.
The lower Pres change is something i have recommended with other Playtesters after an organized game the other day. So far everyone is on board with it. Nothing but benefits to come from this change, as far as i can predict. (As long as gorge gets "Free" things)
I want to change my server's setting as well, but only for scrimming/testing purposes with a password. Our clan has two servers, -[420]- public, and -[420]- scrim/pub. I can change the scrim server's Pres if any other clans want to test it out with us?
@Grissi : that was a big issue a playtester brought up after said scrim. i think the proposed changes of requiring a gorge to build a dropped harvester would help alleviate this issue somewhat. But as for the "Mass Tech" issue... we must find a way to implement more res sinks, and more methods to EARN res. (not just waiting)
+1. i think this might work very well and go some way towards making catalyze remotely interesting in terms of increasing the opportunity cost of saving hive energy for that 2nd hive catalyze dump.
the other difference between marine and aliens right now is that marines have to go out and build the res nodes, while aliens are on full attack
that is why early combat is always centered around somewhere near marine base (either base or 1st res point)
and once the 'res node trading' part of the game happens.. aliens are free to just stay attacking while marines need to go back and rebuild the res nodes, so they are always slower
Also a suggestion for the topic being discussed currently; have the gorge drop resource towers (extractors nowadays?) that would mimic the commander/player relationship from marines but in alien everyone-works-for-the-same-goal way of thinking and now we would have a new pres dumb for early game. Commander would still be dropping the Cysts for clarification.
I read somewhere that it's planned for JPs not to be able to pick up EXO weapons.. so there will not be a minigun jetpacker.
Yeah unfortunately it seems that the non-exosuit marines are lacking a higher tier weapon by design which could've balanced current situation.
So not only do aliens seem to be taking like 2x+ the bullets they actually need to die, the death animation/feedback that you've actually killed the alien is still slow as well. I sometimes run out of bullets shooting a skulk, but a half second later the skulk will die and the game will say I've killed it, apparently a second or two ago.
Ammo conservation as a marine is impossible at this point. And I'm fairly certain as games progress and the server tickrates start going down the issue is only exacerbated. If those issues are ever fixed I think aliens will seem a lot less OP.
So not only do aliens seem to be taking like 2x+ the bullets they actually need to die, the death animation/feedback that you've actually killed the alien is still slow as well. I sometimes run out of bullets shooting a skulk, but a half second later the skulk will die and the game will say I've killed it, apparently a second or two ago.
Ammo conservation as a marine is impossible at this point. And I'm fairly certain as games progress and the server tickrates start going down the issue is only exacerbated. If those issues are ever fixed I think aliens will seem a lot less OP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only time I see hit registration work is when aliens stay completely still, such as when they eat an rt or a power node. I'm always surprised how few bullets it actually takes to kill a skulk and they usually don't even have time to react before they die.
Yet when aliens are in full speed and jumping around, hit registration is thrown out the window. Don't get me started with lerks and bile bomb...
Another change I was thinking of is possibly bringing back RFK (Res for kill) though in a VERY, very small amount. I have a bad memory but I believe the old system was one res for one kill or something drastic like that? I do remember spikes in pres in those that had a ton of kills, but having it at maybe 0.20, 0.15, or 0.10 pres for one kill would make it less game-changing. I know for sure NS1 had a RFK system that gave a small amount of res for a kill.
Currently, the only thing that discourages mass deaths in one team is the wait in the respawn pool, though this is fixed with the beacon from the observatory and the mass egg spawn when a certain amount of aliens are dead with no eggs. Therefore, the team with the most mobility (aliens) should be able to win as they can get into combat and defend structures faster than the marines with no fear of letting the enemy team get ahead by dieing.
The system would also encourage teams to group up and take objectives rather than going solo (unless the job requires stealth, then going alone is fine). For example, if the marine team has taken down the enemy hive to 15% due to a previous siege on the alien base, regrouping and starting ANOTHER attack on the same hive (or another hive if there is one) would be better than being blinded by the fact the alien hive is very low and going in one by one to take it down ASSUMING that the alien team has responded with a crag drop (if there is none) and a gorge to heal the hive back up.
Some may argue this lets those that are ahead stay ahead. Sure, those with more kills would be ahead in Pres, but if the gained PRes is so small that it is a very insignificant matter in determining who would win the game, then it would benefit to the game more by causing players to interact with one another. An onos that rushes the marine base with maybe a lerk isn't too fruitful as opposed to an onos, a lerk, a gorge, and a skulk. A pack of 2-3 skulks would complete more objectives than a lone skulk.
Others may argue that a fade can easily get kills. Well, a fade IS the SECOND MOST EXPENSIVE LIFEFORM, so if it can't 1v2 marines with lmgs, there's something wrong. Also, if the pres is changed to 10, we might see fades when marines have maybe armor 2 weapon 1 or viceversa, and two marines with shotguns should have a slight chance of taking a fade down at that point assuming the marines are able to react when the fade does show up, encouraging the fade to maybe go in with another lifeform.
Finally, if you DO get 50 kills as a fade, if the RFK was at 0.20, that's a 10 increase in pres. I'd say if you're able to get that many kills as a fade, you should already be ahead of the enemy team.
Early gorge(s) will be important to speed alien expansion (Structures build slow by themselves)! This is one of many things he said would be coming to address alien expansion speed, and their ability to expand quickly while pressuring marines on their base. I am incredibly pleased to hear this and eagerly awaiting the next patch!
This, together with a deepening of the alien tech tree and the khamm function in general will go a long way in addressing the imbalance as it stands today. Great job UWE!
i suggested this WAY back in b150:s in this thread:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111628" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=111628</a>
and here (later in the same thread) i clarified a little more detailed what my idea was:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111628&view=findpost&p=1811889" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1811889</a>
Early gorge(s) will be important to speed alien expansion (Structures build slow by themselves)! This is one of many things he said would be coming to address alien expansion speed, and their ability to expand quickly while pressuring marines on their base. I am incredibly pleased to hear this and eagerly awaiting the next patch!
This, together with a deepening of the alien tech tree and the khamm function in general will go a long way in addressing the imbalance as it stands today. Great job UWE!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the Gorge is only going to be used for increasing the rate at which things build, I fear it will still not nearly be enough. The problem right now is not necessarily map control in the form of the Alien Commander spreading cysts and buildings across the map like a plague; it's that the NS1 early game resource sink for aliens (multiple players dropping upgrade chambers, RTs, and Hives) has been all shoved off onto the Alien Commander position.
So on a team of 8 players this means in NS2 that right now 7 will have no reason to spend their personal resources until they reach a higher lifeform, whereas in NS1 you maybe had 4~ Gorge early for upgrade chambers and RTs (and then maybe 2-3 go back to Skulk). If the Gorge is only used for helping things build faster in the newest patch then you will probably see one early gorge seeing as how most Alien Commanders only expand in one direction initially.
The problem with any player wanting to willingly drop resources on Gorge structures right now is that for any cost the mini-cysts are only worth dropping for positioning Hydras or reconnecting the cyst chain, and Hydras are a stationary defense meaning it's a gamble if you invest largely in an area that never sees action. In NS1 that Gorge <b>had</b> to drop upgrade chambers; they <b>had</b> to drop RTs, they <b>had</b> to drop Hives <u>if they wanted to have their team win the game</u>. In NS2 the only things they can drop are not important enough or don't have enough impact on the game to make someone give serious thought to investing personal resources over going back to Skulk, retaining mobility, and saving up for a higher lifeform.
So if Gorges are needed to speed up Alien Commander dropped structures, I can see maybe one or two Gorges early game depending on if the AC expands in more than one general direction. As long as mini-cysts cost res I don't see them being used for anything other than being placed for Hydra positioning (I'd love to see the mini-cyst become preferred as the main source of infestation spread; it would make Gorges far more valuable). As long as Hydras are the Gorges main resource sink, and Marines teams can generally ignore them for the poor resource:performance ratio, I don't see many players willingly investing in a poor static defense as the only means of a resource sink. Finally, as long as there is no reason for Aliens to be spending their own res early you will continue to see three-quarters of the Alien team still go Fade or Onos shortly into the game.
Either way, the gorge is definitely going to become a lot more important. In addition, once the alien commander gets more t.res and p.res sinks, he will be less able to spam cysts like he can currently and will have to rely on gorges if he wants to spend his p.res elsehwere. Gorge-commander interaction will then become even more important, everybody wins!
*Improves performance*
*Marines dominate*
*Aliens get buffed to their previous state*
*Game is balanced*
*Improves performance*
*Marines dominate*
*Aliens get buffed to their previous state*
*Game is balanced*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except for that end result what has to happen is this:
*Nerfs aliens or whatever*
*Improves performance*
*Marines dominate*
*Majority of aliens mechanics are redesigned from scratch to be skill-indexed*
*It is now possible to balance aliens against marines without adding/removing mechanics on a whim*
<a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i60JOXEKEi2L4XzrWiYk15-OO9bCBadUh3ZR7mhcC3c/edit" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i60JOXE...3ZR7mhcC3c/edit</a>
The winrate depends on a large number of parameters : skulk health, res influx, lmg damage, tech cost, etc.
Taken alone almost every one of this parameters allows to get a 50% winrate. The reason why this is true is the following. Take the lmg damage as an example. Put it to zero, the marine winrate drop to zero. Put it to infinity (one shot everything), the marine winrate goes to 100%. By a continuity assumption there is a lmg damage value where the winrate is 50% (it cannot go from 0 to 100 without passing by 50).
The same is true for almost every other parameter. What this means is that saying "parameter X is responsible for the non-50% winrate" is meaningless since it is trivially true for any parameter.
I don't go into combination of parameters (e.g. for two parameters there is probably a curve of 50% winrate, for three a surface, etc.) but the problem become even more degenerated.
So, what we need right know is more, clearly stated, balance criteria, in addition to the 50% winrate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I kind of wish this was the start of the thread.