Power nodes, cysts, infestation, and scouting
Wheeee
Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
I was reading the game design document and thinking about why aliens are so easy to win with, mostly talking about pub play, but also in high level matches marines are having more trouble closing the game than would otherwise indicate (marines with good aim wipe the floor with skulks, yet it often takes quite a while to close the match out if an initial rush is unsuccessful). From what I've seen, it always feels on the marine side as if lifeforms come too early, even if you deny the 2nd hive. This generally means that aliens are able to hold resource towers too easily, or marines have a much more difficult time pressuring rt's without 2 or 3 marines with godly aim. The purpose of this thread isn't to talk about skulk vs LMG or the balance of group encounters, it's to talk about how the game is inherently unbalanced from the standpoint of the power system and infestation, and the role they play in the overarching strategy of the game.
So, why is it that the power and infestation systems are inherently unbalanced, and why do marines have problems pressuring alien res towers? I believe that the basic structure of the power node/infestation model causes or exacerbates a lot of these issues. The alien team rarely wastes time killing power nodes, yet the design of the power system was to give clear indications of territory control, yet often the power nodes are left on in alien territory for minutes on end. On the other hand, many times marines will kill cysts before moving on to structures. Why? Not only does killing cysts destroy the auto-healing abilities of alien structures, but it also costs the alien team res, removes their ability to observe the area remotely, removes the slow running effect for marines, damages structures further down the chain, and allows marines to build in that area if they desire. In other words, infestation not only grants the alien team and immense advantage, it also significantly impairs the marine team. The alien team has an incredible advantage in speed of lifeforms, and yet their entire economy requires structures that grant them instant minimap and wallhack vision. Therefore, the alien team doesn't really have to commit many troops or resources to scouting or defending - by virtue of placing structures, they already exude a strong area of control without the presence of any players, and as soon as marines are detected they can redirect forces to secure the area. This is incredibly important, as it frees up the entire team to play offensively or respond to incoming threats. On the other hand marines often don't know about an attack until the structures are already taking damage, which means that, due to their slow reinforcement time, they either play defensively and must split up their forces to defend, or all-out aggression which is incredibly risky. Also, the alien team gains a great benefit from cysts and infestation, but they cost p-res. in this case, p-res somewhat equates to t-res since there's usually a single khamm, but this still goes against the design principle that team-wide upgrades or structures require t-res.
Meanwhile, the power system does not exude marine control at all - the only advantage that powering a room up has for the marines is the ability for marines to build in the area, and turn the lights on. This gives marines little incentive to socket the power in a contested room, as they have no reason to introduce a vulnerability to the situation, and it gives aliens little incentive to kill them: they take very little effort to repair and it's more effective just to kill the marines that are building/defending than to bite the node down. Since one of the advantages of kharaa is their speedy movement, staying still to attack a non-critical enemy structure is inefficient. Also, power nodes were supposed to introduce vulnerabilities to marine turret farms, yet they are too easily defended with mines or turrets, therefore making it much simpler and effective for the aliens to tackle the turrets themselves and leave the power node alone. Perhaps the only time where attacking a power node is considered a good idea is when many structures depend on it and the power node has a blind spot. There doesn't feel like there's any real significance to non-main-base power nodes, if i see a skulk killing a power node before the extractor i think to myself "lol, a dumb skulk" or "hey, free kill!"
So, let's summarize:
<ul>-aliens have a scouting advantage due to infestation, which coupled with higher movement speed, makes it hard for marines to pressure alien territory
-this alien scouting advantage costs p-res instead of t-res, while a similar scouting from marines cost t-res (making forward obs)
-power nodes aren't critical because the risk/reward is too low for attacking them before marine defenses are eradicated in non-main-base rooms, no cost to marines to repair
-power nodes don't exude area control like cysts/infestation does, making them feel "tacked-on" and peripheral to core gameplay.</li></ul>
Probably not going to happen, but here are some of my thoughts on how to improve these issues.
-Khamm drops mini-cysts, just like gorges do. mini-cysts have a smaller area of infestation than they do now, and the khamm can upgrade mini-cysts to full cysts at the cost of t-res.
<ul>This makes an interesting res sink for alien team res (which there is an overabundance of at the moment), as well as reducing cyst spam, and introduces a tradeoff for aggressive early expansion. If the alien team wants a great deal of early scouting via infestation, then they must delay upgrades or a hive. If the team wants an early hive or upgrades, they must use lifeforms to scout. also improves gorge/khamm interaction.</li></ul>
-Mines do friendly fire damage to power nodes
<ul>Mine spamming is too effective on power nodes, discouraging aliens from attacking them.</li></ul>
-Costs t-res to socket a power node, p-res to repair a broken power node
<ul>It makes no sense that a welder (costing p-res) is required to repair a partially broken power node, but it's completely free and much faster to rebuild a broken one. Would also give some weight to defending power nodes, and some incentive for aliens to destroy them.</li></ul>
-Marine building electrification, requires power node to be on (does not work with power packs), damaging power node reduces the chance of electrification effect
<ul>This is one way for the power grid to really shine as helping marines exhibit map control, and make power nodes a high priority target for aliens.</li></ul>
-Cyst infestation grows much more slowly in powered rooms/mini cysts do not grow infestation in powered rooms
<ul>Also helps define map control, and gives marines a little more reason to keep the power up, as well as help limit cyst spamming.</li></ul>
So, why is it that the power and infestation systems are inherently unbalanced, and why do marines have problems pressuring alien res towers? I believe that the basic structure of the power node/infestation model causes or exacerbates a lot of these issues. The alien team rarely wastes time killing power nodes, yet the design of the power system was to give clear indications of territory control, yet often the power nodes are left on in alien territory for minutes on end. On the other hand, many times marines will kill cysts before moving on to structures. Why? Not only does killing cysts destroy the auto-healing abilities of alien structures, but it also costs the alien team res, removes their ability to observe the area remotely, removes the slow running effect for marines, damages structures further down the chain, and allows marines to build in that area if they desire. In other words, infestation not only grants the alien team and immense advantage, it also significantly impairs the marine team. The alien team has an incredible advantage in speed of lifeforms, and yet their entire economy requires structures that grant them instant minimap and wallhack vision. Therefore, the alien team doesn't really have to commit many troops or resources to scouting or defending - by virtue of placing structures, they already exude a strong area of control without the presence of any players, and as soon as marines are detected they can redirect forces to secure the area. This is incredibly important, as it frees up the entire team to play offensively or respond to incoming threats. On the other hand marines often don't know about an attack until the structures are already taking damage, which means that, due to their slow reinforcement time, they either play defensively and must split up their forces to defend, or all-out aggression which is incredibly risky. Also, the alien team gains a great benefit from cysts and infestation, but they cost p-res. in this case, p-res somewhat equates to t-res since there's usually a single khamm, but this still goes against the design principle that team-wide upgrades or structures require t-res.
Meanwhile, the power system does not exude marine control at all - the only advantage that powering a room up has for the marines is the ability for marines to build in the area, and turn the lights on. This gives marines little incentive to socket the power in a contested room, as they have no reason to introduce a vulnerability to the situation, and it gives aliens little incentive to kill them: they take very little effort to repair and it's more effective just to kill the marines that are building/defending than to bite the node down. Since one of the advantages of kharaa is their speedy movement, staying still to attack a non-critical enemy structure is inefficient. Also, power nodes were supposed to introduce vulnerabilities to marine turret farms, yet they are too easily defended with mines or turrets, therefore making it much simpler and effective for the aliens to tackle the turrets themselves and leave the power node alone. Perhaps the only time where attacking a power node is considered a good idea is when many structures depend on it and the power node has a blind spot. There doesn't feel like there's any real significance to non-main-base power nodes, if i see a skulk killing a power node before the extractor i think to myself "lol, a dumb skulk" or "hey, free kill!"
So, let's summarize:
<ul>-aliens have a scouting advantage due to infestation, which coupled with higher movement speed, makes it hard for marines to pressure alien territory
-this alien scouting advantage costs p-res instead of t-res, while a similar scouting from marines cost t-res (making forward obs)
-power nodes aren't critical because the risk/reward is too low for attacking them before marine defenses are eradicated in non-main-base rooms, no cost to marines to repair
-power nodes don't exude area control like cysts/infestation does, making them feel "tacked-on" and peripheral to core gameplay.</li></ul>
Probably not going to happen, but here are some of my thoughts on how to improve these issues.
-Khamm drops mini-cysts, just like gorges do. mini-cysts have a smaller area of infestation than they do now, and the khamm can upgrade mini-cysts to full cysts at the cost of t-res.
<ul>This makes an interesting res sink for alien team res (which there is an overabundance of at the moment), as well as reducing cyst spam, and introduces a tradeoff for aggressive early expansion. If the alien team wants a great deal of early scouting via infestation, then they must delay upgrades or a hive. If the team wants an early hive or upgrades, they must use lifeforms to scout. also improves gorge/khamm interaction.</li></ul>
-Mines do friendly fire damage to power nodes
<ul>Mine spamming is too effective on power nodes, discouraging aliens from attacking them.</li></ul>
-Costs t-res to socket a power node, p-res to repair a broken power node
<ul>It makes no sense that a welder (costing p-res) is required to repair a partially broken power node, but it's completely free and much faster to rebuild a broken one. Would also give some weight to defending power nodes, and some incentive for aliens to destroy them.</li></ul>
-Marine building electrification, requires power node to be on (does not work with power packs), damaging power node reduces the chance of electrification effect
<ul>This is one way for the power grid to really shine as helping marines exhibit map control, and make power nodes a high priority target for aliens.</li></ul>
-Cyst infestation grows much more slowly in powered rooms/mini cysts do not grow infestation in powered rooms
<ul>Also helps define map control, and gives marines a little more reason to keep the power up, as well as help limit cyst spamming.</li></ul>
Comments
<ul>Also helps define map control, and gives marines a little more reason to keep the power up, as well as help limit cyst spamming.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought this was the original point of the power grid. I'd much rather see this happen than buildings go off. Maybe buildings could run at 1/2 efficiency if power was off? (research/respawn/armory heals slowed, abilities cost a larger amount of res/energy) This allows reworking of the current system while still keeping the cool lighting changes.
Right now I agree that infestation is an alien strength, but power grid is a marine WEAKNESS. That doesn't make much sense.
I'd like to see UWE consider turning off hive-sight for infestation. I never really understood why it was implemented in the first place, and quite frankly, Marines are already screwed enough on Infestation as it is.
Indeed, if Hive Sight in general works like this, then ninja tactics would once again be viable. But, should the blips still be visible on mini-map?
- Remove hive sight on infestation.
- Add a "scanning" ability on Shade hive. The khamm can activate the infestation on a given area, it starts to shake and make strange sounds, feeling the marines that stand on it.
I think that powernodes should have little to no effect on gameplay and should be out of the game completely. I know this won't happen because of all the time the developers put into the lighting system and dynamics. However, if you choose aesthetics over gameplay there will be an issue for players who play long term. If the powernodes stay in the game I think they should have an inherent electrify ability (Think of how much sense this makes). It's a big giant node of power... if you bite it how can you not expect to get shocked?
This would keep low level lifeforms from being able to tackle a powernode giving marines a greater chance at map control. Bile bomb and lerk spikes can easily take down the powernodes since they are ranged attacks. Onos has so much health that he can just take down the powernode in exchange for lower HP. Fades shouldn't really ever be attacking powernodes anyway.
This would help balance the game between both commanders and teams a lot more. Another idea I had was to keep the atmospheric effects of having the lights off from killing power nodes, but make it so nodes can never be repaired. Instead the marines need to drop a powerpack in that room and the powerpacks will power any structures in range as before. 1 powerpack is allowed per room and the powerpacks health would equal that of an actual powernode. This would make the dynamics of the lighting system really shine. Having dark rooms that are still in marine territory could be a very eerie and awesome effect, but would also reward the aliens for taking down powernodes by upping their stealth. This also would give more players incentive to use alien flashlight more often :-P.
I'd like to see UWE consider turning off hive-sight for infestation. I never really understood why it was implemented in the first place, and quite frankly, Marines are already screwed enough on Infestation as it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, though they should also remove the marine minimap and comm spotting aliens that are not attacking or have in fact been spotted on the field. It's just as cheesy as hivesight and completely ruins the point of hiding as a skulk.
More on-topic, I think you are right in some points, but you are overlooking other big factors in play that are providing aliens with a massive advantage:
- Ability to construct and expand anywhere on the map without needing players
- No t.res sinks or choices for alien khamm, easier to replace harvesters and build new ones.
- Full alien team being able to hit higher lifeforms due to gorges and their p.res sink being redundant. (Might become even worse when they decide to remove gorge p.res sink in general)
I highlighted these issues in an earlier thread, to which Flayra responded:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/forums/index.php?showtopic=117524" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/forums/ind...howtopic=117524</a>
Anyway, I definitely agree hive sight should go, it's another small issue that further exacerbates the imbalanced position aliens are in.
1) If the lifeform is attacking a Marine structure with melee, he will be spotted until he stops. Ranged attacks do not identify the attacker unless it is sitting on/next to the structure.
2) If the lifeform is within the generously defined "spotting range" of a Marine. (note that this also applies to spotting Marines as Kharaa)
3) If the lifeform is within range of an Obs or Scan.
Contrast that to always on hive-sight and it becomes clear which team has superior intelligence.
I didn't know a marine had eyes on his back, I've been able to tell my marines that there is a skulk behind them plenty of times, as a comm, or seen it on the minimap myself. Sounds like they need to fix the spotting range then.
More on-topic, I think you are right in some points, but you are overlooking other big factors in play that are providing aliens with a massive advantage:
- Ability to construct and expand anywhere on the map without needing players
- No t.res sinks or choices for alien khamm, easier to replace harvesters and build new ones.
- Full alien team being able to hit higher lifeforms due to gorges and their p.res sink being redundant. (Might become even worse when they decide to remove gorge p.res sink in general)
I highlighted these issues in an earlier thread, to which Flayra responded:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/forums/index.php?showtopic=117524" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/forums/ind...howtopic=117524</a>
Anyway, I definitely agree hive sight should go, it's another small issue that further exacerbates the imbalanced position aliens are in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah the point of the thread isn't to address balance as a whole. It's only taking a look at the inherent imbalance of the infestation vs power systems, and how they affect the game in general. All of those other balance issues can be talked about, but this one underlying mechanic already stacks the deck before any other considerations come into play.
I like the fact that as a Commander you can tell your team there is a skulk behind or above them. It makes you seem more part of it rather than just spamming med packs.
Whoa, genius idea. So simple but effective. On that note I wish electrifying resource towers would come back. It would go a long way to helping marines maintain map control early game, right now early game is spent rushing from one resource tower to another to fend off a skulk attack and it really puts marines on the back foot, not really able to go on the offensive like aliens can. Have it cost 20 team res maybe so since it's early game you have to decide whether to protect an RT in a vulnerable location from skulk attacks or get an upgrade or something else.
If they didn't have any effect on the game there would be 0 reason for the aliens to attack them at all.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This would keep low level lifeforms from being able to tackle a powernode giving marines a greater chance at map control. Bile bomb and lerk spikes can easily take down the powernodes since they are ranged attacks. Onos has so much health that he can just take down the powernode in exchange for lower HP. Fades shouldn't really ever be attacking powernodes anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Power nodes being down isn't what gives marines problems holding areas, it's the constant alien aggression and not having early intelligence of harassing units, compared to the aliens instant knowledge of any incoming pressure due to forward cysts and infestation. Power nodes have enough health that a harassing skulk attacking it only delays him from attacking more effective targets (unguarded RTs), since it requires 0 investment and virtually no time to repair them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This would help balance the game between both commanders and teams a lot more. Another idea I had was to keep the atmospheric effects of having the lights off from killing power nodes, but make it so nodes can never be repaired. Instead the marines need to drop a powerpack in that room and the powerpacks will power any structures in range as before. 1 powerpack is allowed per room and the powerpacks health would equal that of an actual powernode. This would make the dynamics of the lighting system really shine. Having dark rooms that are still in marine territory could be a very eerie and awesome effect, but would also reward the aliens for taking down powernodes by upping their stealth. This also would give more players incentive to use alien flashlight more often :-P.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not quite sure that would work, perhaps the lights stay down if infestation is covering the power node? It seems bad to have a permanently dark room, and against the devs' desire to have lit rooms to show off all the nice textures and mapping stuff.
My proposal: Have cysts alert when a marines is within it's infestation, but not give the exact location. This way it would still serve as a warning system without giving specific info like the size and position of the incoming force. This allows infesting of key areas to still be useful. For PowerNodes, have a similar alert. When an alien is present, have that powernode light up its sector of the map. This would allow marines to monitor where forces are incoming without having the minimap ESP. This would divide scouting into 2 distinct forms. Sector/cyst scouting that is like a alert about enemies in a general area vs individual scouting such as parasiting or spotting. This brings back the value of having a player on the front lines relaying info about the size and make-up of an enemy squad. This is where much of the cat-and-mouse style probing and harassing of opposing forces came from in NS1. "There's 3 HAs at this location!" "4 skulks just took me down outside of our base!" It would also make feints and the like much more possible. Do you split your forces equally to check on the 2 sectors on different ends of the map that are being invaded? What if there is only one enemy player at location 1, but 7 enemies at location 2? A lone skulk or marines might rally the opposing team to their location while a ninja squad prepares an assault elsewhere.
To really branch out the tech-tree for both sides, make these abilities part of the Shade/Obs tech path. The highest tier of these tech paths would be the current infestation wallhack and motion-tracking. This would allow for some interesting tactical dynamics of intel vs force. Should we get carapace vs cyst-sense. Shotguns vs grid-sensing.
Just some ideas....
My proposal: Have cysts alert when a marines is within it's infestation, but not give the exact location. This way it would still serve as a warning system without giving specific info like the size and position of the incoming force. This allows infesting of key areas to still be useful. For PowerNodes, have a similar alert. When an alien is present, have that powernode light up its sector of the map. This would allow marines to monitor where forces are incoming without having the minimap ESP. This would divide scouting into 2 distinct forms. Sector/cyst scouting that is like a alert about enemies in a general area vs individual scouting such as parasiting or spotting. This brings back the value of having a player on the front lines relaying info about the size and make-up of an enemy squad. This is where much of the cat-and-mouse style probing and harassing of opposing forces came from in NS1. "There's 3 HAs at this location!" "4 skulks just took me down outside of our base!" It would also make feints and the like much more possible. Do you split your forces equally to check on the 2 sectors on different ends of the map that are being invaded? What if there is only one enemy player at location 1, but 7 enemies at location 2? A lone skulk or marines might rally the opposing team to their location while a ninja squad prepares an assault elsewhere.
To really branch out the tech-tree for both sides, make these abilities part of the Shade/Obs tech path. The highest tier of these tech paths would be the current infestation wallhack and motion-tracking. This would allow for some interesting tactical dynamics of intel vs force. Should we get carapace vs cyst-sense. Shotguns vs grid-sensing.
Just some ideas....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
you read my mind
no my point was that power nodes don't exert map control like infestation does, and it should. not that it doesn't and therefore shouldn't exist.
Infestation is one of the major reasons why Aliens win nearly all of the matches. Once the Aliens established a decent foothold in the map they will be able to see where the Marines are attacking from, how many there are, and if they have brought any Arcs. A relatively organized Kharaa team, with the ability to move through the small maps quickly (I can only assume that with the Movement chamber hive it will only get worse, especially if players can shift through hives), can halt an assault before any serious damage is inflicted. A last ditch effort of a Ninja phase gate is impossible for various reasons. To have a successful ninja phase gate, the marine must destroy many cysts, spend time building a power node, then build a phase gate (which is much easier to grind compared to NS1). It's simply not practical. This saddens me a lot more than it should
Marines/arcs should not be seen on the mini-map if they are traveling through infestation, period.
I respectfully disagree. A skulk/Kharaa should not be rewarded by receiving a free parasite for dying. It should be the skulks responsibility to relay that information.
I'm simply suggesting another method that has the ability for marines to even counter.. when I say small cloud I mean <b>small</b> cloud with no damage.
Anyways it's just a suggestion.. what other way is there around it?
For the power system I think I got a nice solution:
1) The comm can drop lights. There is already some props of large spot lights so it would not require a lot of work. It will replace a static light system by something much more dynamic, the comm has to think where to build the lights: more freedom, people like freedom. The lights can be attacked and destroyed, so you would get this cinematic effect of lights going down. It would also allow mappers to have some dark area in the map since it can be countered.
Dynamic lighting in the engine, dynamic lights in the game; make sense.
2) Rename the power pack to "sentry power system", it will power the turrets only. Destroying it disable the sentries. It allows to have a weak point in turret spammed area. It also allow the comm to choose a good spot for the "sentry power system" instead of having a fixed position on the map.
3) Use building loss of power animation to show when a building get recycled.
4) Remove power nodes since they are no longer needed.
It's a nice solution because it requires (relatively) little work and recycle most of what has already been done: no good work gets wasted. By splitting the different function of power nodes (lights, turret factory, base destroyer, ..) it also facilitate balance.
For the power system I think I got a nice solution:
1) The comm can drop lights. There is already some props of large spot lights so it would not require a lot of work. It will replace a static light system by something much more dynamic, the comm has to think where to build the lights: more freedom, people like freedom. The lights can be attacked and destroyed, so you would get this cinematic effect of lights going down. It would also allow mappers to have some dark area in the map since it can be countered.
Dynamic lighting in the engine, dynamic lights in the game; make sense.
2) Rename the power pack to "sentry power system", it will power the turrets only. Destroying it disable the sentries. It allows to have a weak point in turret spammed area. It also allow the comm to choose a good spot for the "sentry power system" instead of having a fixed position on the map.
3) Use building loss of power animation to show when a building get recycled.
4) Remove power nodes since they are no longer needed.
It's a nice solution because it requires (relatively) little work and recycle most of what has already been done: no good work gets wasted. By splitting the different function of power nodes (lights, turret factory, base destroyer, ..) it also facilitate balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like the idea of actual commander-placed lights - i think it would add a lot to the atmosphere... (obviously not without its downsides but i think the current power/lighting system is just not working).
Anyway, they should tackle one issue at a time, and hivesight is certainly the most pressing imbalance in the game currently. Powernodes just need a redesign, but can work, hivesight is broken and needs to go, or at least become a fancy alien tech option. Parasite will become a lot more important again, as will the alien commander's job of organising his team.
The real question is would it be really useful. It depend on map darkness of course but I can imagine some use to it, the comm can put the light on something he wants to be protected or watched particularly, a vent, a ceiling, a building. It's a kind of visual waypoint, if you enter a room a you have a big projector aimed at a something, you will probably have a look there.
For the power system I think I got a nice solution:
1) The comm can drop lights. There is already some props of large spot lights so it would not require a lot of work. It will replace a static light system by something much more dynamic, the comm has to think where to build the lights: more freedom, people like freedom. The lights can be attacked and destroyed, so you would get this cinematic effect of lights going down. It would also allow mappers to have some dark area in the map since it can be countered.
Dynamic lighting in the engine, dynamic lights in the game; make sense.
2) Rename the power pack to "sentry power system", it will power the turrets only. Destroying it disable the sentries. It allows to have a weak point in turret spammed area. It also allow the comm to choose a good spot for the "sentry power system" instead of having a fixed position on the map.
3) Use building loss of power animation to show when a building get recycled.
4) Remove power nodes since they are no longer needed.
It's a nice solution because it requires (relatively) little work and recycle most of what has already been done: no good work gets wasted. By splitting the different function of power nodes (lights, turret factory, base destroyer, ..) it also facilitate balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a fantastic idea and I like that you've thought about UWE's workload, past and present.