Yeah, the survivors are far more powerful than the zombies and special infected, they have excellent weapons which can kill hordes of zombies by themselves, and a smart player can usually stop a hunter or a smoker 1v1 anyhow.
There are two types of "negative" abilities, and I think the OP's comparison highlights the difference. Silence and Cloak are negative abilities, in the sense that they take away an opponents seneses, in this case to see or hear. What they don't do is take away control.
If a marine wants to deal with a silence and cloaked skulk they still have it entirely within their power to defeat them. More vigilance, more teamwork, better comming...it all adds up to nullifying the effects of losing your sight and sound to a degree.
Stunning, which is what any other negative ability comes down to, is just (as I believe I saw others say) not fun. It's distracting and frustrating in TF2, it's one of the main things that frustrated in CS with flashbangs (although you could argue that savvy play could significantly reduce your chances of dying while flashed). Not being in control of your situation just doesn't sit well, it might be entertaining the first couple of times it happens but after that it becomes a source of resentment.
I'm all for abilities that make you work harder as the game goes on, it's one of the best ways to help bring the game to an end. To this degree regeneration and carapace are negative abilities as they reduce the damage a marine effectively delivers. I agree that anything else is artificial and wish it would be avoided.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It hinges on the idea that marines are somehow helpless and entirely unable to do anything about the constant impeding of their abilities, forced to sit and be repeatedly stunned, blinded, slowed, and otherwise abused like helpless children, unable to fight back or do anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's very interesting to read, across a few threads now, what is a clear divide between those apologising for what can be called cheap gameplay elements because...well...you like them, or you honestly think they add depth to the game, or you just want to defend the developers..... and those that want the game to be fun.
Right now I'd say UWE should be listening to the latter. What is going to make this game successful is not going to be the diversity of ###### abilities that make lesser players rage quit while you hit your talk key and go "lol, shoulda learned how to play better" while they decide to ditch the game and never come back. This game needs a good skills curve, it needs to have depth, but not at the expense of a casual player base that'll keep the community fueled for years to come. That should be the primary thought before any and every decision made on game play. In NS1 these sorts of tricks only came about in the late stages, and it was almost a full stop to the game, it only happened because the point was that by the time the abilities were there you weren't meant to be able to fight back any more.
If it's happening in the early/mid stages now then it's too early, it's going to turn people off...it doesn't matter if you can avoid it, or if good solid teamplay will stop you falling foul of it...johnny pubber and his mates taking an hour to play after a night at the pub aren't going to care about that, but they might get angry about experiencing what a lack of pro-cohesiveness gets them.
<!--quoteo(post=1926454:date=Apr 17 2012, 06:09 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Apr 17 2012, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926454"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't get too worked up about marine impairments. We are constantly changing and revising this stuff, and exploring other options. For example, the slowdown on Gorge spit is getting removed, Lerk spores are going to be made slightly more transparent, we are looking into removing stun from Onos gore, etc.
But, yes, there are still going to be some abilities that impair marines sight and/ or movement or something else. It makes for a pretty boring game if every single one of the alien abilities and alien commander abilites and alien structure abilities, of which there are quite a few different ones in the game, only do damage/armor reduction. We've been pretty conscious of the negative consequences of adding these, and we've been listening to the community as well, to try to minimize the frustration impairment abilities can cause. But we feel the variety in gameplay, and immersive feedback these can provide is worth the tradeoff.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Add rupture to the list. Do we really have to give the Khamm an impairment ability that's impossible to dodge?
Gorge loses slow-on-hit but keeps the vision blotting. Has there really been some sort of discussion on why it is so necessary to keep the face splat?
Lerk spores improved somewhat but still ridiculously hard to see through and I'm glad the onos abilities are going to be revisited.
I get that you want the game to be interesting and all and that immersion is important but I'm not sure that the negative consequences have been evaluated enough. There are certain things that I can't justify to myself like the marine nano-shield which needlessly tinges and pulses the screen blue. I can only think that UWE has overlooked that these things are actually mildly irritating rather than cool and immersive. Maybe some people *do* like the effects but then surely the effects on the gun model are enough to provide a visual indicator for being buffed.
Playing the game today, I tried to count how many times I couldn't see what I was trying to kill, the times something appeared in front of me without warning or when I was attacked from behind without any audio warning. Needless to say, I stopped counting because it happened so often. I'm a high-skill player with good awareness and even I don't know what the ###### is going on half the time. I don't think that's a good thing. Experience should help me discern the sense from all the chaos but it feels like, no matter how long I play this game for, I'm still going to get borked by stuff I can't see/hear/dodge.
Sorry to be anal after the success that was PAX and I'm genuinely glad it went well. I'd just love for there to be a serious high-level design discussion or something about impairments, sensual and physical. I'd like to know whether UWE actually sees some of it has a worthwhile tradeoff for immersion, for example, because it constantly feels like the irritation these provide to a portion of the community is overlooked. It's easy to view things through the prism of strategy and art to justify a whole bunch of impairments but I wonder sometimes whether the prism of FPS should come to the fore more often.
<!--quoteo(post=1927731:date=Apr 20 2012, 03:04 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Apr 20 2012, 03:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927731"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Add rupture to the list. Do we really have to give the Khamm an impairment ability that's impossible to dodge?
Gorge loses slow-on-hit but keeps the vision blotting. Has there really been some sort of discussion on why it is so necessary to keep the face splat?
Lerk spores improved somewhat but still ridiculously hard to see through and I'm glad the onos abilities are going to be revisited.
I get that you want the game to be interesting and all and that immersion is important but I'm not sure that the negative consequences have been evaluated enough. There are certain things that I can't justify to myself like the marine nano-shield which needlessly tinges and pulses the screen blue. I can only think that UWE has overlooked that these things are actually mildly irritating rather than cool and immersive. Maybe some people *do* like the effects but then surely the effects on the gun model are enough to provide a visual indicator for being buffed.
Playing the game today, I tried to count how many times I couldn't see what I was trying to kill, the times something appeared in front of me without warning or when I was attacked from behind without any audio warning. Needless to say, I stopped counting because it happened so often. I'm a high-skill player with good awareness and even I don't know what the ###### is going on half the time. I don't think that's a good thing. Experience should help me discern the sense from all the chaos but it feels like, no matter how long I play this game for, I'm still going to get borked by stuff I can't see/hear/dodge.
Sorry to be anal after the success that was PAX and I'm genuinely glad it went well. I'd just love for their to be a serious high-level design discussion or something about impairments, sensual and physical. I'd like to know whether UWE actually sees some of it has a worthwhile tradeoff for immersion, for example, because it constantly feels like the irritation these provide to a portion of the community is overlooked. It's easy to view things through the prism of strategy and art to justify a whole bunch of impairments but I wonder sometimes whether the prism of FPS should come to the fore more often.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally agree with you, i just think this is falling a deaf ears. They want their eye candy at the cost of high level play. They have showed time and again immersion wins over game play. Looks like we will be a competitive mode after all. Sad to see really.
The focus should be more on possitive effects than negitive abilities. Negative abilities should only be added when it truly gives value to the gameplay. Now judgeing from the design logs I have read the game is going to be fps over strategy, this means that abilities that obscurse vission, stun or slow are very negative for the gameplay. Rupture is a perfect examble of a abilitiy that will cause more frustration than value to the gameplay, it would have been better to give aliens some kind a buff in the area. This would not affect the marine player at all but would still make it much harder for the marines to deal with them.
Like I said before, its alright to have some negative abilities while they have clear roles in the game. Onos stomp for example is alright since its pretty late game and its made to be the most powerful unit in the game. However having stomp and Gore stun is overkill.
Edit: Small addition to stomp: There needs to be a clear way to counter it like in ns1. In ns1 good positioning and jetpacks could counter onos stomp.
<!--quoteo(post=1927748:date=Apr 20 2012, 03:44 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 20 2012, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927748"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edit: Small addition to stomp: There needs to be a clear way to counter it like in ns1. In ns1 good positioning and jetpacks could counter onos stomp.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Timed right you can jump to avoid it, though you have to be on a level field.
<!--quoteo(post=1928084:date=Apr 21 2012, 10:04 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Apr 21 2012, 10:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928084"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's been stated as a bug to be fixed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
There are two types of "negative" abilities, and I think the OP's comparison highlights the difference. Silence and Cloak are negative abilities, in the sense that they take away an opponents seneses, in this case to see or hear. What they don't do is take away control.
If a marine wants to deal with a silence and cloaked skulk they still have it entirely within their power to defeat them. More vigilance, more teamwork, better comming...it all adds up to nullifying the effects of losing your sight and sound to a degree.
Stunning, which is what any other negative ability comes down to, is just (as I believe I saw others say) not fun. It's distracting and frustrating in TF2, it's one of the main things that frustrated in CS with flashbangs (although you could argue that savvy play could significantly reduce your chances of dying while flashed). Not being in control of your situation just doesn't sit well, it might be entertaining the first couple of times it happens but after that it becomes a source of resentment.
I'm all for abilities that make you work harder as the game goes on, it's one of the best ways to help bring the game to an end. To this degree regeneration and carapace are negative abilities as they reduce the damage a marine effectively delivers. I agree that anything else is artificial and wish it would be avoided.
It's very interesting to read, across a few threads now, what is a clear divide between those apologising for what can be called cheap gameplay elements because...well...you like them, or you honestly think they add depth to the game, or you just want to defend the developers..... and those that want the game to be fun.
Right now I'd say UWE should be listening to the latter. What is going to make this game successful is not going to be the diversity of ###### abilities that make lesser players rage quit while you hit your talk key and go "lol, shoulda learned how to play better" while they decide to ditch the game and never come back. This game needs a good skills curve, it needs to have depth, but not at the expense of a casual player base that'll keep the community fueled for years to come. That should be the primary thought before any and every decision made on game play. In NS1 these sorts of tricks only came about in the late stages, and it was almost a full stop to the game, it only happened because the point was that by the time the abilities were there you weren't meant to be able to fight back any more.
If it's happening in the early/mid stages now then it's too early, it's going to turn people off...it doesn't matter if you can avoid it, or if good solid teamplay will stop you falling foul of it...johnny pubber and his mates taking an hour to play after a night at the pub aren't going to care about that, but they might get angry about experiencing what a lack of pro-cohesiveness gets them.
corrosion/hex
NS1 vet that still plays it
But, yes, there are still going to be some abilities that impair marines sight and/ or movement or something else. It makes for a pretty boring game if every single one of the alien abilities and alien commander abilites and alien structure abilities, of which there are quite a few different ones in the game, only do damage/armor reduction. We've been pretty conscious of the negative consequences of adding these, and we've been listening to the community as well, to try to minimize the frustration impairment abilities can cause. But we feel the variety in gameplay, and immersive feedback these can provide is worth the tradeoff.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Add rupture to the list. Do we really have to give the Khamm an impairment ability that's impossible to dodge?
Gorge loses slow-on-hit but keeps the vision blotting. Has there really been some sort of discussion on why it is so necessary to keep the face splat?
Lerk spores improved somewhat but still ridiculously hard to see through and I'm glad the onos abilities are going to be revisited.
I get that you want the game to be interesting and all and that immersion is important but I'm not sure that the negative consequences have been evaluated enough. There are certain things that I can't justify to myself like the marine nano-shield which needlessly tinges and pulses the screen blue. I can only think that UWE has overlooked that these things are actually mildly irritating rather than cool and immersive. Maybe some people *do* like the effects but then surely the effects on the gun model are enough to provide a visual indicator for being buffed.
Playing the game today, I tried to count how many times I couldn't see what I was trying to kill, the times something appeared in front of me without warning or when I was attacked from behind without any audio warning. Needless to say, I stopped counting because it happened so often. I'm a high-skill player with good awareness and even I don't know what the ###### is going on half the time. I don't think that's a good thing. Experience should help me discern the sense from all the chaos but it feels like, no matter how long I play this game for, I'm still going to get borked by stuff I can't see/hear/dodge.
Sorry to be anal after the success that was PAX and I'm genuinely glad it went well. I'd just love for there to be a serious high-level design discussion or something about impairments, sensual and physical. I'd like to know whether UWE actually sees some of it has a worthwhile tradeoff for immersion, for example, because it constantly feels like the irritation these provide to a portion of the community is overlooked. It's easy to view things through the prism of strategy and art to justify a whole bunch of impairments but I wonder sometimes whether the prism of FPS should come to the fore more often.
Gorge loses slow-on-hit but keeps the vision blotting. Has there really been some sort of discussion on why it is so necessary to keep the face splat?
Lerk spores improved somewhat but still ridiculously hard to see through and I'm glad the onos abilities are going to be revisited.
I get that you want the game to be interesting and all and that immersion is important but I'm not sure that the negative consequences have been evaluated enough. There are certain things that I can't justify to myself like the marine nano-shield which needlessly tinges and pulses the screen blue. I can only think that UWE has overlooked that these things are actually mildly irritating rather than cool and immersive. Maybe some people *do* like the effects but then surely the effects on the gun model are enough to provide a visual indicator for being buffed.
Playing the game today, I tried to count how many times I couldn't see what I was trying to kill, the times something appeared in front of me without warning or when I was attacked from behind without any audio warning. Needless to say, I stopped counting because it happened so often. I'm a high-skill player with good awareness and even I don't know what the ###### is going on half the time. I don't think that's a good thing. Experience should help me discern the sense from all the chaos but it feels like, no matter how long I play this game for, I'm still going to get borked by stuff I can't see/hear/dodge.
Sorry to be anal after the success that was PAX and I'm genuinely glad it went well. I'd just love for their to be a serious high-level design discussion or something about impairments, sensual and physical. I'd like to know whether UWE actually sees some of it has a worthwhile tradeoff for immersion, for example, because it constantly feels like the irritation these provide to a portion of the community is overlooked. It's easy to view things through the prism of strategy and art to justify a whole bunch of impairments but I wonder sometimes whether the prism of FPS should come to the fore more often.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally agree with you, i just think this is falling a deaf ears. They want their eye candy at the cost of high level play. They have showed time and again immersion wins over game play. Looks like we will be a competitive mode after all. Sad to see really.
Like I said before, its alright to have some negative abilities while they have clear roles in the game. Onos stomp for example is alright since its pretty late game and its made to be the most powerful unit in the game. However having stomp and Gore stun is overkill.
Edit:
Small addition to stomp: There needs to be a clear way to counter it like in ns1. In ns1 good positioning and jetpacks could counter onos stomp.
Small addition to stomp: There needs to be a clear way to counter it like in ns1. In ns1 good positioning and jetpacks could counter onos stomp.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Timed right you can jump to avoid it, though you have to be on a level field.
Should be a feature tbh =)