<!--quoteo(post=1926037:date=Apr 16 2012, 11:41 PM:name=InfraRed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (InfraRed @ Apr 16 2012, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926037"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it's something to do with fear, these people are scared about what it would mean if cheaters ruined their favourite online game, I guess denial is an easy way of dealing with that fear a bit like covering your ears and shouting loudly when something is saying something you don't want to hear.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the best example is capitalism *roll eyes* lets storm the front!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK OK - Sorry to be controversial. I am also aware that I can be paranoid. Apologies for rocking your boats etc. I expect it is a bit annoying to be accused of being a cheater when you are genuinely amazing. I also admit that there really are genuinely amazing players out there, and good for them (even if I am a jealous player with nooblike aiming skills (DESPITE BEING A LONG TERM PLAYER!)).
Still. Ahem. Even being aware of strangely good players and having had doubts about whether or not they were cheating, my experience has been this: NS1 version x (I don't know which one, probable around 3 I think, it's been a long time) clearly did have some exploits in the form of aimbots applied to it. How widespread I can't say, but having spectated firsthand I can assure you that the one that I witnessed (yes it was only once that I spectated it, because having done this I promptly got annoyed and pretty much gave up NS... even online play for a while) WAS NOT AIMING BY HAND!
When I say mechanical, while going from place to place without enemy engagement the movement seemed to be in a straight line, while the hud kept moving in regular arcs again and again from one side to the other with a dip in the middle. As soon as enemies were nearby they would get kill after kill - effortlessly spinning around 180 and killing another alien immediately. The only times they died was literally when running out of ammo. I think they kept hopping alot as well. Maybe, can't remember. It was a long time ago now, probably a few years.
The above spectate I saw I have NO DOUBT was aimbotted. However witnessing this I became increasingly aware of players with 0-1 deaths and 30-100+ kills. OK - perhaps you do get games like that, where you just pwn. Ok perhaps you do get skilled players. But I also noticed that this was A) consistant and B) would consistently be for players with mysterious icons to the left of their name when holding tab to see the score.
At this point, I would point out my own ignorance:
<i><b>1) Perhaps AMX mod etc legitimately can or cannot be used to cheat.</b></i> I don't know. But as a user, and not an ns server programmer, I had no idea of the existence of these enhancements. I also think it's unfair for experienced players who are not server admin to have odds stacked against them in this way, if it be so.
<!--quoteo(post=1926027:date=Apr 16 2012, 11:26 PM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Apr 16 2012, 11:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926027"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->/facepalm That's the constellation icon. It has nothing to do with being server admin.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i><b>2) Funny icons to the left of a players name.</b></i> I don't know what they mean, but when they are regularly present on players who have irrational scores, it becomes hard to say it's a coincidence that they are all just good players. PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG AND GIVE ME A BREAKDOWN OF WHAT THEY ARE! Thank you for telling me btw that it's the "constellation icon". Great. I am none the wiser. Rather than making me look stupid, please enlighten me and put this to bed.
<i><b>I just want to have confidence that I am playing a fair stack of cards. Any reassurance on this would be appreciated. The post I originally based this on have risen questions.</b></i>
(see <a href="http://www.ns2hd.com/2012/04/performance-where-is-it-now-and-where.html" target="_blank">http://www.ns2hd.com/2012/04/performance-w...-and-where.html</a> )
by far the best method to stop hackers is for servers to have good server admins and a good community that helps in dealing with hackers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would UWE then be able to provide a method that allowed for some servers to be gauranteed vanilla / cheat free, or even knowledge if a server is modified?
<!--quoteo(post=1926407:date=Apr 17 2012, 04:48 PM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Apr 17 2012, 04:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What UWE should do is allow the engine to record and save games similar to how the Half Life Engine does. That way people can record hacking and then upload the file when they are reporting a hacker.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A combination of anti-cheat, admin monitoring, and community collaboration is best.
One of the more effective ways I've seen is server admins working together to create a "steam bans"-like thread or site, where proof of cheaters can be posted and everyone can have a comprehensive list of steam IDs to ban. When a community works together and is consistent with that sort of thing, cheaters don't hang around long since they get banned from *every* major server. When the risk of cheating could lead to you not playing the game at all (wasting a fairly decent chunk of change in the process) it can persuade a lot of people that would normally do it to play legit instead.
Oh and regarding the whole vanilla vs modded servers, UWE already said they plan to have them in different categories/areas so that you know 100% what you're playing on. That definitely won't be a problem.
Would you pls stop posting post after post? There is a Editbutton.
To the topic, we will always have cheaters no matter what anti cheat you use. And you may laugh but for an other game I liked to play, I bought some private cheats to send it to punkbuster. The best anti cheat IMO is the way AntiCheat inc does it for Americas Army, f.e. you can perform a whole backgroundcheck for an account, so if he was banned with another acount you can see it (MAC-Adress, IP and Guid). But that whole thing runs via the comu.
So as soon as the first cheaters appear it's the comus teamwork that can keep the game cheatfree. DEVs chan only improve the anticheat, but there is atleast 1 Guy that will find a way to hack it and as soon as this one guy found it out the spread beginns. That is a cycle that you can't stop, because after each update of the anticheat there will be another guy that finds a way to hack it again. Just see the first attempts from apple to prevent Jailbreaking. It always workded for some hours or days then a new jailbreak was out.
<!--quoteo(post=1926430:date=Apr 17 2012, 11:52 AM:name=Security)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Security @ Apr 17 2012, 11:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926430"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right now, the developement of NS2 obviously has other priorities first, before even thinking about anti-cheat measures.
However, something very easy to program (and at the same time most effective) would be a first person spectator mode. ;]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They already stated that wasn't nearly as easy as you'd think, hence part of the reason it's not in yet. I imagine the other part is just that it isn't a priority yet.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) Perhaps AMX mod etc legitimately can or cannot be used to cheat. I don't know. But as a user, and not an ns server programmer, I had no idea of the existence of these enhancements. I also think it's unfair for experienced players who are not server admin to have odds stacked against them in this way, if it be so.
QUOTE (Raza. @ Apr 16 2012, 11:26 PM) * /facepalm That's the constellation icon. It has nothing to do with being server admin.
2) Funny icons to the left of a players name. I don't know what they mean, but when they are regularly present on players who have irrational scores, it becomes hard to say it's a coincidence that they are all just good players. PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG AND GIVE ME A BREAKDOWN OF WHAT THEY ARE! Thank you for telling me btw that it's the "constellation icon". Great. I am none the wiser. Rather than making me look stupid, please enlighten me and put this to bed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just saw this post, and since nobody has responded to those points yet...
1) AMX mod/etc. is: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->AMX Mod X is a versatile Half-Life metamod plugin which is targetted toward server administration. It has a wide array of scripting capabilities so people can write "plugins", or files which add on to a mod's functionality. Plugins can take form in administrative services (adding new admin commands), statistics generation (StatsX), fun additions (godmode, etc), gameplay changes (WC3, CSDM), and much, much more!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://www.amxmodx.org/" target="_blank">http://www.amxmodx.org/</a>
While yes, server owners COULD implement "fun" stuff like godmode, you're not going to find that very often... if ever in the NS community. It's more often used for stuff like player stats and various admin commands (like extended banning/kicking/etc. functionality). Servers that DO use the goofy stuff tend to run in two categories: 1. the servers that advertise themselves as being "fun" servers that have silly stuff like that in them, and 2. the very rare server that tries to use it to the admin's advantage... those don't last very long at all as people avoid them like the plague once verified reports of admin abuse are posted.
2) The icons have nothing to do with hacking. NS1 had constellation icons show up in-game for people that donated to Flayra, but it also had the ability for servers to add their own... so many did for things like admins, donors, VIPs, etc. The icons are purely aesthetic and don't impact anything. You probably see a lot of good players with them because a lot of veterans are constellation members, server admins, frequent players on the same servers (so possibly VIPs or friends), so it kind of goes hand in hand. Can't really be a veteran of a game and be horrible (well... it's unlikely :P)
I unfortunately can't give you exact examples of the icons (and what they mean) as servers could add custom ones. It has been awhile, but I thought the only "official" ones were constellation members (<img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/style_images/icons/constellation.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />) and official playtesters (<img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/style_images/icons/playtester.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />). Can't remember if the devs had their own, but it'd make sense if they did. Any others are custom ones the server owners added.
In NS2 we have the PAX East ones, but those don't show up everywhere just yet. They were just from codes given out at PAX I believe, and again mean nothing other than bragging rights.
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited April 2012
@Sickboy: You do know that player is the creator of the GameOvermind plugin, currently working on a game recorder? He can be quite a bit negative, but doubting his programming skills is out of place imo. I think I'll trust him on this, although I'd like to hear some specifics, too.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but one of the problems may be that once you can bypass the hash-check, you can hack virtually anything, while in other games your bypassing of the security systems has to be more specific to the kind of hack you want to do.
@profjekyll: I seriously doubt your cheat detection skills, especially if you even start blaming "strange icons" and server admins for cheats. Anyway, if you quit playing after witnessing ONE cheater (whether he really cheated or not), you should stop playing any games altogether. It's a sad truth, but every online game will have cheaters (and amazing players looking like cheaters).
<!--quoteo(post=1926271:date=Apr 17 2012, 07:14 AM:name=sickboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sickboy @ Apr 17 2012, 07:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926271"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->MD5 tutorial<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A pity you wrote all that down because I didn't say hash-checks could be fooled (although something could be said about MD5-collisions). What I ment was going AROUND the scriptloading-mechanism of Spark is easy, and therefor circumventing the hash-checks located at those end-points. I was being vague on purpose you know. And it makes a very big difference if the game-logic is written in Lua, as Lua continues to contain many string-literals inside its VM during runtime, making it very easy to locate places that are subject to malicous scripting, but we have the unparsed Lua-scripts, so there isn't even a need to go looking about the bytecode, making things all the more easier. Don't make me be more specific.
If hash-checking is going to be the only method of screening upon release, then I already have a wallhack ready for use now (I improved it last time I posted about it, it isn't even loaded by the engine anymore, it maneuvers itself in leaving the engine unaware).
<!--quoteo(post=1925974:date=Apr 16 2012, 11:40 AM:name=JuCCi-PuCCi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi-PuCCi @ Apr 16 2012, 11:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925974"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What makes me a sad panda is i passed this to Flayra and it don't seem like this is a big issue to them due to it being in a beta right now. Id like to know what style anti cheat they will have and if they will have more then one. We all know VAC sucks. Maybe a mix of VAC and Punkbuster, taking screen shots of ones computer from a panel would be good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
VAC maybe "suck" in your opinion, its get updated reguluar and so do hacks depending on popularity of the game, you will always have hacker/cheaters, why bother put energy in them, its sad they need something to "own" others.
Good thing of VAC is, once caught no matter what game, your steam accound and all games and future games on it is marked for live and you wont be able to join any game with VAC enabled, and I think its expansive hobby to buy every game they "enjoy" as hacker/cheater, one miss step on steam and you can say good bye to your accound if comes to multiplayer games wich uses VAC.
and those say punkbuster is beter and ######, they got same issues as VAC does of valve, hacks keeps getting updated and there always private hacks/cheats that might not be caught but those are rare and limited, known hacks/cheats get caught fast enough, beside I don't trust third party programs to make my game cheat/hack free, it got be VAC/Steam or game developers own inbuild way of anti cheating program's or I dont play it.
Just keep in mind, populair games will have cheaters/hackers, there not better then you and they never will be because they need help and you doing it on your own.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I'm unsure about the concepts of hacking NS2. I mean, currently I make a very small change in my mod, forget to update the server files, and when I try to connect, get client and server differ. Simple hacking of NS2 is just not possible. Changing code will not work, so the hacking already has to be fairly sophisticated. To this end, this makes NS2 just as vulnerable as other games. Yes the code for the NS2 is open source, making it potentially easier to figure out the code changes you want to make, but making it work will still require more than the ability to change some values in the lua files.
This is the same barrier reached by all games, and NS2 will have to deal with it as it becomes a problem.
Also, no-one seems to have allayed the OP's main fears about unknowingly playing on modded servers. Let me allow Charlie Himself to put your mind at ease...
<!--quoteo(post=1906445:date=Feb 24 2012, 02:44 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Feb 24 2012, 02:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906445"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, we're looking forward to seeing the community create Combat for NS2. Or Colonist Extraction mode. Or tower defense vs. shambling Fades ripping through doors. It's going to be awesome.
"Vanilla" NS2 will always be the default view of the game browser, so you won't be playing mods without realizing it. If you click "Custom", that will take you to the Wild West where Gorges are farting bile bomb and dual wielding welders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1926448:date=Apr 17 2012, 05:41 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Apr 17 2012, 05:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926448"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm unsure about the concepts of hacking NS2. I mean, currently I make a very small change in my mod, forget to update the server files, and when I try to connect, get client and server differ. Simple hacking of NS2 is just not possible. Changing code will not work, so the hacking already has to be fairly sophisticated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It will only give you the differing-message if you've changed the protocols (registering network-messages per example), if you go into your client-scripts and make a subtle modification that doesn't completely change over the game, you will find you can connect to vanilla servers just fine using it.
I'm also very curious how the devs are going to differentiate modded from unmodded servers. If the slightest change in the VM would trigger a modded-flag, then even a server with only an admin-mod would no longer show up as vanilla. That would be bad.
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1926448:date=Apr 17 2012, 07:41 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Apr 17 2012, 07:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926448"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes the code for the NS2 is open source, making it potentially easier to figure out the code changes you want to make, but making it work will still require more than the ability to change some values in the lua files.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a bit like saying breaking into a house will require more than just walking in the front door. Not a proper assessment of vulnerability.
@player: Thanks for being a bit more and not too specific and also for not flaming sickboy to death. :D
<!--quoteo(post=1926439:date=Apr 17 2012, 12:20 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Apr 17 2012, 12:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Sickboy: You do know that player is the creator of the GameOvermind plugin, currently working on a game recorder? He can be quite a bit negative, but doubting his programming skills is out of place imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nope, didn't. Took his statements as the typical dramatic naysayer since I would have expected something a bit more detailed and informative from someone that does indeed know what they're talking about. But oh well... my apologies. Would delete those posts but, you know, can't. At the very least edited them out so it's not a giant wall of unimportant, irrelevant text. Was thinking I was helping educate and stop misinformation... clearly I should just shut the hell up.
<!--quoteo(post=1926442:date=Apr 17 2012, 12:29 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Apr 17 2012, 12:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926442"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(snip)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> More like a gigantic waste of time and effort piled on top of a big ol' ball of words that would just get censored here. Apologies for assuming you didn't know what you were talking about. Kinda (really) wish you had gone into a tad bit of detail (didn't need exact instructions... but ANY indication that you weren't just being the typical rabble-rouser would have been helpful =/) a dozen posts ago. I'll just be on my way out..
<!--quoteo(post=1926442:date=Apr 17 2012, 01:29 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Apr 17 2012, 01:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926442"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A pity you wrote all that down because I didn't say hash-checks could be fooled (although something could be said about MD5-collisions). What I ment was going AROUND the scriptloading-mechanism of Spark is easy, and therefor circumventing the hash-checks located at those end-points. I was being vague on purpose you know. And it makes a very big difference if the game-logic is written in Lua, as Lua continues to contain many string-literals inside its VM during runtime, making it very easy to locate places that are subject to malicous scripting, but we have the unparsed Lua-scripts, so there isn't even a need to go looking about the bytecode, making things all the more easier. Don't make me be more specific.
If hash-checking is going to be the only method of screening upon release, then I already have a wallhack ready for use now (I improved it last time I posted about it, it isn't even loaded by the engine anymore, it maneuvers itself in leaving the engine unaware).
<!--quoteo(post=1926436:date=Apr 17 2012, 06:05 PM:name=sickboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sickboy @ Apr 17 2012, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) The icons have nothing to do with hacking. NS1 had constellation icons show up in-game for people that donated to Flayra, but it also had the ability for servers to add their own... so many did for things like admins, donors, VIPs, etc. The icons are purely aesthetic and don't impact anything. You probably see a lot of good players with them because a lot of veterans are constellation members, server admins, frequent players on the same servers (so possibly VIPs or friends), so it kind of goes hand in hand. Can't really be a veteran of a game and be horrible (well... it's unlikely :P)
I unfortunately can't give you exact examples of the icons (and what they mean) as servers could add custom ones. It has been awhile, but I thought the only "official" ones were constellation members (<img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/style_images/icons/constellation.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />) and official playtesters (<img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/style_images/icons/playtester.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />). Can't remember if the devs had their own, but it'd make sense if they did. Any others are custom ones the server owners added.
In NS2 we have the PAX East ones, but those don't show up everywhere just yet. They were just from codes given out at PAX I believe, and again mean nothing other than bragging rights.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for explaining this to me, and apologies to any constellation members. As I recall, the bloke I saw aimbotting had two icons next to his name (one was constellation though, sorry). The presence of the second could possibly be explained by server modding, and it being his server? This would seem to fit with the theory of someone tinkering with servers and being able to cheat.
<!--quoteo(post=1926439:date=Apr 17 2012, 06:20 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Apr 17 2012, 06:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@profjekyll: I seriously doubt your cheat detection skills, especially if you even start blaming "strange icons" and server admins for cheats. Anyway, if you quit playing after witnessing ONE cheater (whether he really cheated or not), you should stop playing any games altogether. It's a sad truth, but every online game will have cheaters (and amazing players looking like cheaters).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't care what you think of my cheat detection skills. I am right - it was mechanical aiming. :P
Also, I feel the indication to server tinkering (through additional non-constellation icons) fits well with the possibility of cheating.
Perhaps you are right, cheaters are part of games, my post was to try and embrace this fact and understand it better to be able identify and deal with it. There no need to be rude.
Maybe my reasons for stopping playing extended further than just the cheat I saw, perhaps this was an excuse! (I was horribly addicted getting little sleep before work etc, not to mention some other reasons I won't go into).
<!--quoteo(post=1926448:date=Apr 17 2012, 06:41 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Apr 17 2012, 06:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926448"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm unsure about the concepts of hacking NS2. I mean, currently I make a very small change in my mod, forget to update the server files, and when I try to connect, get client and server differ. Simple hacking of NS2 is just not possible. Changing code will not work, so the hacking already has to be fairly sophisticated. To this end, this makes NS2 just as vulnerable as other games. Yes the code for the NS2 is open source, making it potentially easier to figure out the code changes you want to make, but making it work will still require more than the ability to change some values in the lua files.
This is the same barrier reached by all games, and NS2 will have to deal with it as it becomes a problem.
Also, no-one seems to have allayed the OP's main fears about unknowingly playing on modded servers. Let me allow Charlie Himself to put your mind at ease...
QUOTE (Flayra @ Feb 24 2012, 02:44 AM) Yes, we're looking forward to seeing the community create Combat for NS2. Or Colonist Extraction mode. Or tower defense vs. shambling Fades ripping through doors. It's going to be awesome.
"Vanilla" NS2 will always be the default view of the game browser, so you won't be playing mods without realizing it. If you click "Custom", that will take you to the Wild West where Gorges are farting bile bomb and dual wielding welders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks, Charlie's explanation you pointed out has put my mind at rest some - I read this already but didn't quite grip what it meant...
<!--quoteo(post=1926451:date=Apr 17 2012, 06:49 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Apr 17 2012, 06:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's a bit like saying breaking into a house will require more than just walking in the front door. Not a proper assessment of vulnerability.
@player: Thanks for being a bit more and not too specific and also for not flaming sickboy to death. :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, right Dghelneshi. Thanks for flaming me tbh.
Just a quick official stance on some topics in this thread:
Yes, we will be doing anti-cheat. The precise mechanism is not yet confirmed.
Yes, we will be doing first person spectating. This is not technically easy and as such is further down the queue than other issues, such as performance
In the end, as has been said, its going to need to be a combination of community, server admins and anti-cheat. Just like any other game. Rest assured we will not release NS2 V1.0 with completely naked Lua sitting there for every basement dweller to hack.
What is the official stance on using hot pink spiked models to replace the default ones? I've been using them ever since most NS1 servers banned scripts to keep my advantage over bads and am super used to them now so I hope that you don't have a consistency filter on by default in NS2 that will prevent my further use of them.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1926449:date=Apr 17 2012, 10:47 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Apr 17 2012, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926449"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm also very curious how the devs are going to differentiate modded from unmodded servers. If the slightest change in the VM would trigger a modded-flag, then even a server with only an admin-mod would no longer show up as vanilla. That would be bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe they could whitelist certain mods not to cause a modded server flag?
<!--quoteo(post=1926541:date=Apr 17 2012, 11:04 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Apr 17 2012, 11:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926541"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know how you can call that flaming or rude, but I'm sorry if I offended you. That was not my intention.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whats stopping you from using alien vision? Nothing? It's Apparently the ingame cheat of all time?
I guess the answer is 30 bucks American, haha if thats what it cost you to become self worthy in your own eyes...plus about 20 years of failed life I'd guess.
Stop Trolling and improve you fade game. Nuff said.
<!--quoteo(post=1926672:date=Apr 18 2012, 08:50 AM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Apr 18 2012, 08:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whats stopping you from using alien vision? Nothing? It's Apparently the ingame cheat of all time?
I guess the answer is 30 bucks American, haha if thats what it cost you to become self worthy in your own eyes...plus about 20 years of failed life I'd guess.
Stop Trolling and improve you fade game. Nuff said.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
<!--quoteo(post=1926043:date=Apr 16 2012, 11:46 PM:name=derWalter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (derWalter @ Apr 16 2012, 11:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926043"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1
the best example is capitalism *roll eyes* lets storm the front!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK OK - Sorry to be controversial. I am also aware that I can be paranoid. Apologies for rocking your boats etc. I expect it is a bit annoying to be accused of being a cheater when you are genuinely amazing. I also admit that there really are genuinely amazing players out there, and good for them (even if I am a jealous player with nooblike aiming skills (DESPITE BEING A LONG TERM PLAYER!)).
Still. Ahem. Even being aware of strangely good players and having had doubts about whether or not they were cheating, my experience has been this: NS1 version x (I don't know which one, probable around 3 I think, it's been a long time) clearly did have some exploits in the form of aimbots applied to it. How widespread I can't say, but having spectated firsthand I can assure you that the one that I witnessed (yes it was only once that I spectated it, because having done this I promptly got annoyed and pretty much gave up NS... even online play for a while) WAS NOT AIMING BY HAND!
When I say mechanical, while going from place to place without enemy engagement the movement seemed to be in a straight line, while the hud kept moving in regular arcs again and again from one side to the other with a dip in the middle. As soon as enemies were nearby they would get kill after kill - effortlessly spinning around 180 and killing another alien immediately. The only times they died was literally when running out of ammo. I think they kept hopping alot as well. Maybe, can't remember. It was a long time ago now, probably a few years.
The above spectate I saw I have NO DOUBT was aimbotted. However witnessing this I became increasingly aware of players with 0-1 deaths and 30-100+ kills. OK - perhaps you do get games like that, where you just pwn. Ok perhaps you do get skilled players. But I also noticed that this was A) consistant and B) would consistently be for players with mysterious icons to the left of their name when holding tab to see the score.
At this point, I would point out my own ignorance:
<i><b>1) Perhaps AMX mod etc legitimately can or cannot be used to cheat.</b></i> I don't know. But as a user, and not an ns server programmer, I had no idea of the existence of these enhancements. I also think it's unfair for experienced players who are not server admin to have odds stacked against them in this way, if it be so.
<!--quoteo(post=1926027:date=Apr 16 2012, 11:26 PM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Apr 16 2012, 11:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926027"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->/facepalm
That's the constellation icon. It has nothing to do with being server admin.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i><b>2) Funny icons to the left of a players name.</b></i> I don't know what they mean, but when they are regularly present on players who have irrational scores, it becomes hard to say it's a coincidence that they are all just good players. PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG AND GIVE ME A BREAKDOWN OF WHAT THEY ARE! Thank you for telling me btw that it's the "constellation icon". Great. I am none the wiser. Rather than making me look stupid, please enlighten me and put this to bed.
<i><b>I just want to have confidence that I am playing a fair stack of cards. Any reassurance on this would be appreciated. The post I originally based this on have risen questions.</b></i>
(see <a href="http://www.ns2hd.com/2012/04/performance-where-is-it-now-and-where.html" target="_blank">http://www.ns2hd.com/2012/04/performance-w...-and-where.html</a> )
by far the best method to stop hackers is for servers to have good server admins and a good community that helps in dealing with hackers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would UWE then be able to provide a method that allowed for some servers to be gauranteed vanilla / cheat free, or even knowledge if a server is modified?
Doubt this is possible.
One of the more effective ways I've seen is server admins working together to create a "steam bans"-like thread or site, where proof of cheaters can be posted and everyone can have a comprehensive list of steam IDs to ban. When a community works together and is consistent with that sort of thing, cheaters don't hang around long since they get banned from *every* major server. When the risk of cheating could lead to you not playing the game at all (wasting a fairly decent chunk of change in the process) it can persuade a lot of people that would normally do it to play legit instead.
Oh and regarding the whole vanilla vs modded servers, UWE already said they plan to have them in different categories/areas so that you know 100% what you're playing on. That definitely won't be a problem.
To the topic, we will always have cheaters no matter what anti cheat you use.
And you may laugh but for an other game I liked to play, I bought some private cheats to send it to punkbuster.
The best anti cheat IMO is the way AntiCheat inc does it for Americas Army, f.e. you can perform a whole backgroundcheck for an account, so if he was banned with another acount you can see it (MAC-Adress, IP and Guid).
But that whole thing runs via the comu.
So as soon as the first cheaters appear it's the comus teamwork that can keep the game cheatfree. DEVs chan only improve the anticheat, but there is atleast 1 Guy that will find a way to hack it and as soon as this one guy found it out the spread beginns. That is a cycle that you can't stop, because after each update of the anticheat there will be another guy that finds a way to hack it again.
Just see the first attempts from apple to prevent Jailbreaking. It always workded for some hours or days then a new jailbreak was out.
However, something very easy to program (and at the same time most effective) would be a first person spectator mode. ;]
However, something very easy to program (and at the same time most effective) would be a first person spectator mode. ;]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They already stated that wasn't nearly as easy as you'd think, hence part of the reason it's not in yet. I imagine the other part is just that it isn't a priority yet.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) Perhaps AMX mod etc legitimately can or cannot be used to cheat. I don't know. But as a user, and not an ns server programmer, I had no idea of the existence of these enhancements. I also think it's unfair for experienced players who are not server admin to have odds stacked against them in this way, if it be so.
QUOTE (Raza. @ Apr 16 2012, 11:26 PM) *
/facepalm
That's the constellation icon. It has nothing to do with being server admin.
2) Funny icons to the left of a players name. I don't know what they mean, but when they are regularly present on players who have irrational scores, it becomes hard to say it's a coincidence that they are all just good players. PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG AND GIVE ME A BREAKDOWN OF WHAT THEY ARE! Thank you for telling me btw that it's the "constellation icon". Great. I am none the wiser. Rather than making me look stupid, please enlighten me and put this to bed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just saw this post, and since nobody has responded to those points yet...
1) AMX mod/etc. is:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->AMX Mod X is a versatile Half-Life metamod plugin which is targetted toward server administration.
It has a wide array of scripting capabilities so people can write "plugins", or files which add on to a mod's functionality.
Plugins can take form in administrative services (adding new admin commands), statistics generation (StatsX), fun additions (godmode, etc), gameplay changes (WC3, CSDM), and much, much more!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.amxmodx.org/" target="_blank">http://www.amxmodx.org/</a>
While yes, server owners COULD implement "fun" stuff like godmode, you're not going to find that very often... if ever in the NS community. It's more often used for stuff like player stats and various admin commands (like extended banning/kicking/etc. functionality). Servers that DO use the goofy stuff tend to run in two categories: 1. the servers that advertise themselves as being "fun" servers that have silly stuff like that in them, and 2. the very rare server that tries to use it to the admin's advantage... those don't last very long at all as people avoid them like the plague once verified reports of admin abuse are posted.
2) The icons have nothing to do with hacking. NS1 had constellation icons show up in-game for people that donated to Flayra, but it also had the ability for servers to add their own... so many did for things like admins, donors, VIPs, etc. The icons are purely aesthetic and don't impact anything. You probably see a lot of good players with them because a lot of veterans are constellation members, server admins, frequent players on the same servers (so possibly VIPs or friends), so it kind of goes hand in hand. Can't really be a veteran of a game and be horrible (well... it's unlikely :P)
I unfortunately can't give you exact examples of the icons (and what they mean) as servers could add custom ones. It has been awhile, but I thought the only "official" ones were constellation members (<img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/style_images/icons/constellation.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />) and official playtesters (<img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/style_images/icons/playtester.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />). Can't remember if the devs had their own, but it'd make sense if they did. Any others are custom ones the server owners added.
In NS2 we have the PAX East ones, but those don't show up everywhere just yet. They were just from codes given out at PAX I believe, and again mean nothing other than bragging rights.
You do know that player is the creator of the GameOvermind plugin, currently working on a game recorder? He can be quite a bit negative, but doubting his programming skills is out of place imo.
I think I'll trust him on this, although I'd like to hear some specifics, too.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but one of the problems may be that once you can bypass the hash-check, you can hack virtually anything, while in other games your bypassing of the security systems has to be more specific to the kind of hack you want to do.
@profjekyll:
I seriously doubt your cheat detection skills, especially if you even start blaming "strange icons" and server admins for cheats. Anyway, if you quit playing after witnessing ONE cheater (whether he really cheated or not), you should stop playing any games altogether. It's a sad truth, but every online game will have cheaters (and amazing players looking like cheaters).
A pity you wrote all that down because I didn't say hash-checks could be fooled (although something could be said about MD5-collisions). What I ment was going AROUND the scriptloading-mechanism of Spark is easy, and therefor circumventing the hash-checks located at those end-points. I was being vague on purpose you know. And it makes a very big difference if the game-logic is written in Lua, as Lua continues to contain many string-literals inside its VM during runtime, making it very easy to locate places that are subject to malicous scripting, but we have the unparsed Lua-scripts, so there isn't even a need to go looking about the bytecode, making things all the more easier. Don't make me be more specific.
If hash-checking is going to be the only method of screening upon release, then I already have a wallhack ready for use now (I improved it last time I posted about it, it isn't even loaded by the engine anymore, it maneuvers itself in leaving the engine unaware).
.. grmlb grmlb bloody PHP-developers grmblgrmbl...
VAC maybe "suck" in your opinion, its get updated reguluar and so do hacks depending on popularity of the game, you will always have hacker/cheaters, why bother put energy in them, its sad they need something to "own" others.
Good thing of VAC is, once caught no matter what game, your steam accound and all games and future games on it is marked for live and you wont be able to join any game with VAC enabled, and I think its expansive hobby to buy every game they "enjoy" as hacker/cheater, one miss step on steam and you can say good bye to your accound if comes to multiplayer games wich uses VAC.
and those say punkbuster is beter and ######, they got same issues as VAC does of valve, hacks keeps getting updated and there always private hacks/cheats that might not be caught but those are rare and limited, known hacks/cheats get caught fast enough, beside I don't trust third party programs to make my game cheat/hack free, it got be VAC/Steam or game developers own inbuild way of anti cheating program's or I dont play it.
Just keep in mind, populair games will have cheaters/hackers, there not better then you and they never will be because they need help and you doing it on your own.
Just my though on this.
This is the same barrier reached by all games, and NS2 will have to deal with it as it becomes a problem.
Also, no-one seems to have allayed the OP's main fears about unknowingly playing on modded servers. Let me allow Charlie Himself to put your mind at ease...
<!--quoteo(post=1906445:date=Feb 24 2012, 02:44 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Feb 24 2012, 02:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906445"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, we're looking forward to seeing the community create Combat for NS2. Or Colonist Extraction mode. Or tower defense vs. shambling Fades ripping through doors. It's going to be awesome.
"Vanilla" NS2 will always be the default view of the game browser, so you won't be playing mods without realizing it. If you click "Custom", that will take you to the Wild West where Gorges are farting bile bomb and dual wielding welders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It will only give you the differing-message if you've changed the protocols (registering network-messages per example), if you go into your client-scripts and make a subtle modification that doesn't completely change over the game, you will find you can connect to vanilla servers just fine using it.
I'm also very curious how the devs are going to differentiate modded from unmodded servers. If the slightest change in the VM would trigger a modded-flag, then even a server with only an admin-mod would no longer show up as vanilla. That would be bad.
That's a bit like saying breaking into a house will require more than just walking in the front door. Not a proper assessment of vulnerability.
@player: Thanks for being a bit more and not too specific and also for not flaming sickboy to death. :D
You do know that player is the creator of the GameOvermind plugin, currently working on a game recorder? He can be quite a bit negative, but doubting his programming skills is out of place imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope, didn't. Took his statements as the typical dramatic naysayer since I would have expected something a bit more detailed and informative from someone that does indeed know what they're talking about. But oh well... my apologies. Would delete those posts but, you know, can't. At the very least edited them out so it's not a giant wall of unimportant, irrelevant text. Was thinking I was helping educate and stop misinformation... clearly I should just shut the hell up.
<!--quoteo(post=1926442:date=Apr 17 2012, 12:29 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Apr 17 2012, 12:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926442"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(snip)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More like a gigantic waste of time and effort piled on top of a big ol' ball of words that would just get censored here. Apologies for assuming you didn't know what you were talking about. Kinda (really) wish you had gone into a tad bit of detail (didn't need exact instructions... but ANY indication that you weren't just being the typical rabble-rouser would have been helpful =/) a dozen posts ago. I'll just be on my way out..
If hash-checking is going to be the only method of screening upon release, then I already have a wallhack ready for use now (I improved it last time I posted about it, it isn't even loaded by the engine anymore, it maneuvers itself in leaving the engine unaware).
.. grmlb grmlb bloody PHP-developers grmblgrmbl...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How would you stop your own cheats?
I unfortunately can't give you exact examples of the icons (and what they mean) as servers could add custom ones. It has been awhile, but I thought the only "official" ones were constellation members (<img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/style_images/icons/constellation.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />) and official playtesters (<img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/style_images/icons/playtester.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />). Can't remember if the devs had their own, but it'd make sense if they did. Any others are custom ones the server owners added.
In NS2 we have the PAX East ones, but those don't show up everywhere just yet. They were just from codes given out at PAX I believe, and again mean nothing other than bragging rights.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for explaining this to me, and apologies to any constellation members. As I recall, the bloke I saw aimbotting had two icons next to his name (one was constellation though, sorry). The presence of the second could possibly be explained by server modding, and it being his server? This would seem to fit with the theory of someone tinkering with servers and being able to cheat.
<!--quoteo(post=1926439:date=Apr 17 2012, 06:20 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Apr 17 2012, 06:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@profjekyll:
I seriously doubt your cheat detection skills, especially if you even start blaming "strange icons" and server admins for cheats. Anyway, if you quit playing after witnessing ONE cheater (whether he really cheated or not), you should stop playing any games altogether. It's a sad truth, but every online game will have cheaters (and amazing players looking like cheaters).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't care what you think of my cheat detection skills. I am right - it was mechanical aiming. :P
Also, I feel the indication to server tinkering (through additional non-constellation icons) fits well with the possibility of cheating.
Perhaps you are right, cheaters are part of games, my post was to try and embrace this fact and understand it better to be able identify and deal with it. There no need to be rude.
Maybe my reasons for stopping playing extended further than just the cheat I saw, perhaps this was an excuse! (I was horribly addicted getting little sleep before work etc, not to mention some other reasons I won't go into).
<!--quoteo(post=1926448:date=Apr 17 2012, 06:41 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Apr 17 2012, 06:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926448"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm unsure about the concepts of hacking NS2. I mean, currently I make a very small change in my mod, forget to update the server files, and when I try to connect, get client and server differ. Simple hacking of NS2 is just not possible. Changing code will not work, so the hacking already has to be fairly sophisticated. To this end, this makes NS2 just as vulnerable as other games. Yes the code for the NS2 is open source, making it potentially easier to figure out the code changes you want to make, but making it work will still require more than the ability to change some values in the lua files.
This is the same barrier reached by all games, and NS2 will have to deal with it as it becomes a problem.
Also, no-one seems to have allayed the OP's main fears about unknowingly playing on modded servers. Let me allow Charlie Himself to put your mind at ease...
QUOTE (Flayra @ Feb 24 2012, 02:44 AM)
Yes, we're looking forward to seeing the community create Combat for NS2. Or Colonist Extraction mode. Or tower defense vs. shambling Fades ripping through doors. It's going to be awesome.
"Vanilla" NS2 will always be the default view of the game browser, so you won't be playing mods without realizing it. If you click "Custom", that will take you to the Wild West where Gorges are farting bile bomb and dual wielding welders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks, Charlie's explanation you pointed out has put my mind at rest some - I read this already but didn't quite grip what it meant...
<!--quoteo(post=1926451:date=Apr 17 2012, 06:49 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Apr 17 2012, 06:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's a bit like saying breaking into a house will require more than just walking in the front door. Not a proper assessment of vulnerability.
@player: Thanks for being a bit more and not too specific and also for not flaming sickboy to death. :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, right Dghelneshi. Thanks for flaming me tbh.
Yes, we will be doing anti-cheat. The precise mechanism is not yet confirmed.
Yes, we will be doing first person spectating. This is not technically easy and as such is further down the queue than other issues, such as performance
In the end, as has been said, its going to need to be a combination of community, server admins and anti-cheat. Just like any other game. Rest assured we will not release NS2 V1.0 with completely naked Lua sitting there for every basement dweller to hack.
oi!
Maybe they could whitelist certain mods not to cause a modded server flag?
Ok, handbag re-holstered... 8)
I guess the answer is 30 bucks American, haha if thats what it cost you to become self worthy in your own eyes...plus about 20 years of failed life I'd guess.
Stop Trolling and improve you fade game. Nuff said.
I guess the answer is 30 bucks American, haha if thats what it cost you to become self worthy in your own eyes...plus about 20 years of failed life I'd guess.
Stop Trolling and improve you fade game. Nuff said.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Huh??