I must agree with the OP about the game being too fast now. I have posted about this before and feel that strategy and depth are being slowly eroded and replaced with mindless fast paced combat. What made NS1 special was the fact it was different to anything else and I would hate to see it become simply another FPS. I enjoy the slow build up and working to the win but lately games are often over in minutes and Skulk/SG rushes being the norm or later game ARC trains which are frankly not fun.
The problems with the game is not connected how fast the game is. 8-15 mins matches are actually very good with few games going longer. The lerk and fades timings are also fine, its just that augmentation is to cheap.
Also after playing this patch for awhile I miss the hive wars, I feel like I'm only fighting rts all game and going the same route over and over. It was more intense when you had to get the 2nd hive down, then you had to kill a 2nd hive and the rts.
If anything, the current implementation of augmentation has made aliens even more OP. Instead of now having to secure a second hive location, they can get most of the second hive benefits in about the same time frame, and much safer, with just 1 hive. There were games where marines stood a chance if they managed to keep the aliens out of a second hive, i.e they wouldn't have to deal with bilebomb and blinking fades, but now that part of the game is gone as well. Augmentation is not just too cheap, it's simply too fast as well. I strongly disagree with the notion that gameplay is fine 8 - 15 min. From my experience in this patch, games are generally balanced and enjoyable up to the point (usually around 10 minutes) where augmentation or a first onos kicks in and marines lose map control COMPLETELY because they simply don't have the needed tech to compete at that point of the game.
In addition, augmentation has in fact added little to no extra choices and depth to the alien commander, which is disappoint in itself. If anything it has taken away another assymetric aspect of NS (the fact that aliens need to expand where as marines can be content with just one base), at little to no actual gain in terms of gameplay.
I sincerely hope they reconsider this move, at least partially, i.e augmentation should be cut into a tech for each ability, which in turn will add more depth, more choices and even a greater trade-off to getting that second hive (faster augmentation teching with 2 hives, not all eggs being put in one basket, etc)
A big problem with augmentation is that it will be upgraded at around 6 minutes every single game because of nutrient mist. There is absolutely no reason to use mist on anything else because of the game ending abilities gained by augmentation.
Kind of off-topic but bile bomb and stomp should be third hive abilities (upgrade lvl2 augmentation?). They are the most powerful abilities (an alien with these abilities can single-handedly change the game) and can be gained FAR too easily. The strength of aliens significantly increases within 20 seconds. (5:50 augmentation done, 6:10 lerks/fades with 2nd abilities) There needs to be more of a slight incline instead of 90 degrees.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1929788:date=Apr 25 2012, 02:10 PM:name=TremanN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TremanN @ Apr 25 2012, 02:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929788"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A big problem with augmentation is that it will be upgraded at around 6 minutes every single game because of nutrient mist. There is absolutely no reason to use mist on anything else because of the game ending abilities gained by augmentation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
completely agree with this. there needs to be severe trade offs like those mentioned in the high level design doc. currently any other options other than the one quoted above is not as viable/successful and is definitely not chosen first.
<!--quoteo(post=1929779:date=Apr 25 2012, 04:53 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 25 2012, 04:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If anything, the current implementation of augmentation has made aliens even more OP. Instead of now having to secure a second hive location, they can get most of the second hive benefits in about the same time frame, and much safer, with just 1 hive. There were games where marines stood a chance if they managed to keep the aliens out of a second hive, i.e they wouldn't have to deal with bilebomb and blinking fades, but now that part of the game is gone as well. Augmentation is not just too cheap, it's simply too fast as well. I strongly disagree with the notion that gameplay is fine 8 - 15 min. From my experience in this patch, games are generally balanced and enjoyable up to the point (usually around 10 minutes) where augmentation or a first onos kicks in and marines lose map control COMPLETELY because they simply don't have the needed tech to compete at that point of the game.
In addition, augmentation has in fact added little to no extra choices and depth to the alien commander, which is disappoint in itself. If anything it has taken away another assymetric aspect of NS (the fact that aliens need to expand where as marines can be content with just one base), at little to no actual gain in terms of gameplay.
I sincerely hope they reconsider this move, at least partially, i.e augmentation should be cut into a tech for each ability, which in turn will add more depth, more choices and even a greater trade-off to getting that second hive (faster augmentation teching with 2 hives, not all eggs being put in one basket, etc)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm basing all my thoughts around the pcw's we have been playing recently. We have actually be winning many of our marines round as well and managing to deal with the fades. We also have had no problem with dealing with onos, if aliens try to do mass onos rush we simply overpower them before they have any chance to get the onos up. But it feels bit redundant to be fighting rts most of the games. I agree that the 2nd hive and 3rd hive worked better but augmentation is not horrible.
Players are still to stuck in the thinking how things are right now since there are still many things that needs to be fixed. Don't be focused on the balance, you should focus on the mechanics in the game.
About the op post, there is a downside to aliens dieing, they lose map control and need to respawn. They should just keep the spawn time static(like 9 sec) instead of decreasing the more skulks are dead
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulk rushing / marine rushing is too effective which leads to a lot of short uneventful games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is not really a problem if you play with static spawns. The problem is that the maps we are playing were not made for close spawns in mind so there are very close rush distances.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Higher lifeforms appear way to early (Symptom of resource system)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem here is that you allow aliens to hold to many rts, the timings are fine in the games we have been playing. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No resource sinks for aliens other than lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is not really needed <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--># Slow down the resource system by lowering starting pres and cutting pres gain per RT nearly in half. (15 starting pres and .15 pres per RT per 8 seconds) # Make tech upgrades for both the marines and aliens cost more and take longer to upgrade. # Arcs need to cost a great deal more than they currently do so marines can't just turtle and spam 30 arcs to win the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't really agree with these points, slowing down the pres hurts the marines more. Techs are already pretty expensive and upgrade speed it not bad.
invTempestJoin Date: 2003-03-02Member: 14223Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1929776:date=Apr 25 2012, 04:42 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 25 2012, 04:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929776"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problems with the game is not connected how fast the game is. 8-15 mins matches are actually very good with few games going longer. The lerk and fades timings are also fine, its just that augmentation is to cheap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Augmentation just adds to the pace of the game like I mentioned in the OP. 8-15 minute games IMO are not very fun because there is not much you can do in that time frame. From what I remember the design doc for NS2 stats a desired play time of 20+ minutes for the average game. Obviously some games will last longer and some will be shorter but overall game length should be around 20 minutes.
Slower tech trees makes players feel more important in the outcome of the game. Fast games (5-10 minutes) makes it feel too much like an TDM with very little RTS elements at play.
At the moment there is little incentive for marines to do anything besides base trade. It's the most successful strategy for marines bar none.
I would like to see stomp and bile on a second level augmentation too. Maybe have a second level of maturity be needed to do that as well. So bile and stomp hit at around 10-12ish minutes.
6 minutes is when I would hope phase gates could be used in public games, but stomp nullifies that pretty easily plus all the other weaknesses of phase gates at the moment.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem here is that you allow aliens to hold to many rts, the timings are fine in the games we have been playing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't consider 3 - 4 extractors to be too many, and that is exactly the amount aliens can reasonably hold without much problem. And at 3 - 4 extractors, aliens can easily dominate the game due to fast onos/augmentation. (Where as marines with similar RT amounts can not) An additional factor to keep into account here is no doubt that on top of aliens needing less tech and thus also less time to reach their 'lategame potential' aliens also have to spend less T.res on replacing harvesters compared to marines (and will generally be more often on offense) due to higher mobility and the ability to intercept marines before they even come close to harassing a harvester (hive sight...).
I'd love to see some of those pcw, but I can't imagine they are very exciting or hold a lot of variety in gameplay if all of them end before the 15 minute mark. Certainly not if they essentially boil down to having to take out a hive before they get onos.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->6 minutes is when I would hope phase gates could be used in public games,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Marines need phase gates to play offensively in most cases yes, though rushing them usually comes at the cost of no upgrades and no better weapons. Aliens on the other hand are inherently more offensive, and need less tech/time to reach lategame potential on top of that. It doesn't take an experienced player to see what's wrong with this.
invTempestJoin Date: 2003-03-02Member: 14223Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1929794:date=Apr 25 2012, 05:30 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 25 2012, 05:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulk rushing / marine rushing is too effective which leads to a lot of short uneventful games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is not really a problem if you play with static spawns. The problem is that the maps we are playing were not made for close spawns in mind so there are very close rush distances. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Static spawns have been removed because they lead to very linear gameplay. Even when we had static spawns this was a big issue and I think it boils down to the fact that all structures (IP's, CC, and hives mainly) have had their health reduced significantly. I'm not a fan of 2 marines or 2 skulks being able to kill a hive/CC in 20 seconds like they can currently.
<!--quoteo(post=1929794:date=Apr 25 2012, 05:30 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 25 2012, 05:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Higher lifeforms appear way to early (Symptom of resource system)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem here is that you allow aliens to hold to many rts, the timings are fine in the games we have been playing. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree - The res system is and has been broken for quite some time now. Killing a couple extractors doesn't change much as that really only affects the alien commander. Lerks and fades will still show up way to early because there are no res sinks or need for people to go gorge.
<!--quoteo(post=1929794:date=Apr 25 2012, 05:30 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 25 2012, 05:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No resource sinks for aliens other than lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is not really needed <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Without any resource sinks you will always see the same lifeforms at nearly the same time. Aliens need something to limit the number of players that can go fade, lerk, onos at any given time which there currently is none unless you count the gorge (which isn't even needed at this point) being able to help build things. Gorges need a real role and we need to see their use be what creates this res sink otherwise you will never balance 5 marines vs 6 fades (talking competitive games here).
<!--quoteo(post=1929794:date=Apr 25 2012, 05:30 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 25 2012, 05:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--># Slow down the resource system by lowering starting pres and cutting pres gain per RT nearly in half. (15 starting pres and .15 pres per RT per 8 seconds) # Make tech upgrades for both the marines and aliens cost more and take longer to upgrade. # Arcs need to cost a great deal more than they currently do so marines can't just turtle and spam 30 arcs to win the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't really agree with these points, slowing down the pres hurts the marines more. Techs are already pretty expensive and upgrade speed it not bad. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tech upgrades are *Very* cheap and have been lowered to give marines a chance to combat the onos in recent patches, which I never liked as it just promotes turtling.
To me it seems you want the game to only last 5-10 minutes and be super fast paced (more of a FPS than RTS) which IMO is not what NS2's intended goal is.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1929794:date=Apr 25 2012, 02:30 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 25 2012, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They should just keep the spawn time static(like 9 sec) instead of decreasing the more skulks are dead<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Aliens spawn in "waves" now. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929471" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...amp;pid=1929471</a> <!--quoteo(post=1929794:date=Apr 25 2012, 02:30 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 25 2012, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem here is that you allow aliens to hold to many rts, the timings are fine in the games we have been playing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <i>Really?</i> 1 min lerks and 4:30 fades sound like "fine" timing to you? o.0 Whether that's the games you are playing or not, that's the average.
And finally, resource sinks and different ways to earn res ARE needed for aliens as they have nothing to spend it on other than life forms, which ends up with soon to be 16 players on a team all able to fade at once. is this doable with just coordination? yes, and that will have to be addressed with RPS mechanics, but not having pres sinks and other ways to earn it definitely <b>exaggerates </b>the issue /occurence.
<!--quoteo(post=1929800:date=Apr 25 2012, 05:37 PM:name=invTempest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (invTempest @ Apr 25 2012, 05:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929800"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Augmentation just adds to the pace of the game like I mentioned in the OP. 8-15 minute games IMO are not very fun because there is not much you can do in that time frame. From what I remember the design doc for NS2 stats a desired play time of 20+ minutes for the average game. Obviously some games will last longer and some will be shorter but overall game length should be around 20 minutes.
Slower tech trees makes players feel more important in the outcome of the game. Fast games (5-10 minutes) makes it feel too much like an TDM with very little RTS elements at play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sure games can easily go up to 20 minutes when the late tech is added to the game and one team does not overpower the other. However I think normal game time will probably end up being 8-15 mins because of the similarities to ns1. They also made it clear they wanted the game to be fps first before rts. Few of the issues with the rts part is the tres cost of things and the resource flow, did you know it actually takes 200 sec for an rt to make 15 res in ns2. With the current cost for the marines it is near impossible to not focus on more than single tech path. Alien commander simply lacks substance. I also feel that ns has always been more of a tactical game than a strategy game. You could also say that ns1 was bit like a tdm. Slowing the tres speed even more won't really do anything to make players feel more important. If you deny map control, build or destroy key structures you are already very important part of the match. But like I said in my earlier post, the game is still not complete and most of these issues will probably(hopefully) be fixed closer to release.
<!--quoteo(post=1929803:date=Apr 25 2012, 05:42 PM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Apr 25 2012, 05:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929803"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At the moment there is little incentive for marines to do anything besides base trade. It's the most successful strategy for marines bar none.
I would like to see stomp and bile on a second level augmentation too. Maybe have a second level of maturity be needed to do that as well. So bile and stomp hit at around 10-12ish minutes.
6 minutes is when I would hope phase gates could be used in public games, but stomp nullifies that pretty easily plus all the other weaknesses of phase gates at the moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Base trades have always been a risky all in but you could also simply try to overpower the enemy team. The game is definitely not balanced right now but marines can win with a solid strategy, very good coordination and tactical play. We have found ways to deal with most of the things that alien can do but its not easy, you really have to play well to do it. Marines can fight 2nd hive abilities and still win if they don't allow aliens to get more than 3-4 rts(can't allow them to hold 4 rts for to long). When you got your upgrades up you can deal with lerk, fades and onos. But I do agree that in the current build there are very few effective strategies, that will probably(again hopefully) be fixed when the game gets closer to release.
<!--quoteo(post=1929808:date=Apr 25 2012, 05:52 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 25 2012, 05:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929808"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't consider 3 - 4 extractors to be too many, and that is exactly the amount aliens can reasonably hold without much problem. And at 3 - 4 extractors, aliens can easily dominate the game due to fast onos/augmentation. (Where as marines with similar RT amounts can not) An additional factor to keep into account here is no doubt that on top of aliens needing less tech and thus also less time to reach their 'lategame potential' aliens also have to spend less T.res on replacing harvesters compared to marines (and will generally be more often on offense) due to higher mobility and the ability to intercept marines before they even come close to harassing a harvester (hive sight...).
I'd love to see some of those pcw, but I can't imagine they are very exciting or hold a lot of variety in gameplay if all of them end before the 15 minute mark. Certainly not if they essentially boil down to having to take out a hive before they get onos.
Marines need phase gates to play offensively in most cases yes, though rushing them usually comes at the cost of no upgrades and no better weapons. Aliens on the other hand are inherently more offensive, and need less tech/time to reach lategame potential on top of that. It doesn't take an experienced player to see what's wrong with this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ns1 and ns2 could be called economy based shooter. In both games the key of victory was to keep the enemy rts very low to have any chance of victory. Just like ns1 keeping the enemy 3 rts or less is the key to success, otherwise you should be expecting high tech/many adv lifeforms. If you keep aliens on 3rts or less the fades won't appear til the 7 min, if you keep them under 3 rts they won't arrive til the 8 min mark which is a huge victory. This is more than enough time to get ready to deal with the fades and take them down when they arrive. This can be seen very well in one of the games we played against 420. Since ns2 does not have all the tech available yet it does not take long to reach full tech. When the rest of the features get added in the game you will see teams require more rts if they want to get to the highest tech. However if you deny augmentation (I agree btw that its to cheap, but its is possible). The fades are rather easy to deal with.
You can see how we manage to deal with fades and onos in our 2nd marine round vs "all in". You can find the links on the front page (we spawned marines in flight vs alien in atrium). We would probably could have won that round if we had seen bilebomb rush before. We didn't have a counter to them at that time but they won't be a problem for us now.
I'm not saying the game is perfect right now but marines are capable of winnings matches with good play in this build.
<!--quoteo(post=1929812:date=Apr 25 2012, 06:00 PM:name=invTempest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (invTempest @ Apr 25 2012, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Static spawns have been removed because they lead to very linear gameplay. Even when we had static spawns this was a big issue and I think it boils down to the fact that all structures (IP's, CC, and hives mainly) have had their health reduced significantly. I'm not a fan of 2 marines or 2 skulks being able to kill a hive/CC in 20 seconds like they can currently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think random spawns are awesome if the map is made with that in mind and is balanced. Summit was made with static spawns spawns in mind and you can clearly see it from the layout. The current balance of the map can be fairly good to plain horrible depending on the starting positions. Marines are in a huge disadvantage if they spawn in data core since all the areas around data core are to strong for aliens. At the same time sub hive is horrible for the aliens since all the areas around sub are marine based. This has huge affect on competitive play(this is why few teams made changes to summit together, made it static spawn and closed the vent connecting computer lab, sub and ventilation area). I don't mind random spawns however on public play, like you said it creates diversity. However I would rather play with a solid map with good gameplay than with a possibility of a broken matchup. About structures hp, the cc might need small increase(just maybe) but the other structures are fine. The commander can take care of stray skulks and you can defend your base with coordination.
<!--quoteo(post=1929812:date=Apr 25 2012, 06:00 PM:name=invTempest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (invTempest @ Apr 25 2012, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree - The res system is and has been broken for quite some time now. Killing a couple extractors doesn't change much as that really only affects the alien commander. Lerks and fades will still show up way to early because there are no res sinks or need for people to go gorge.
Without any resource sinks you will always see the same lifeforms at nearly the same time. Aliens need something to limit the number of players that can go fade, lerk, onos at any given time which there currently is none unless you count the gorge (which isn't even needed at this point) being able to help build things. Gorges need a real role and we need to see their use be what creates this res sink otherwise you will never balance 5 marines vs 6 fades (talking competitive games here).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem here is not res sink, the resource system was created so it would work this way. The reason why you feel like adv lifeforms come to early is because marines don't have much res to get upgrades + other stuff they need. It actually hurts the aliens a lot to lose a rt, it also really slows the adv lifeforms timings. Also you have to keep in mind that marines also get more weapons with the extra pres so its much easier to deal with them in ns2 than ns1. If aliens risk it all on mass onos or fades your team should be able to overpower the aliens before that happens. (forcing players to gorge is not a good solution, teams should go for gorge if its useful for their team).
The biggest problem on public is the low skill ceiling for adv lifeforms. It allows almost everyone to play lerk and fade effectively compared to the time it takes to get marine movement/aim up. In competitive - Marines can force aliens to get no more than 2-3 fades with good play, otherwise they would simply storm their hive and kill it, 3-4 fades can be managed with shotguns and upgrades(they are much weaker in ns2 compared to ns1 fade, not as much hp and no lerk umbra). This is something we have been able to do quite effectively in many of our practice matches
<!--quoteo(post=1929812:date=Apr 25 2012, 06:00 PM:name=invTempest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (invTempest @ Apr 25 2012, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tech upgrades are *Very* cheap and have been lowered to give marines a chance to combat the onos in recent patches, which I never liked as it just promotes turtling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In competitive it always feels that the upgrades are very expensive, its because the enemy team won't allow you to keep many rts up. This means you really have to put pressure on the enemy team and force them to defend their base, this allows you to keep your rts alive. If the enemy team manages to turtle and win against you then you deserve to lose the game. You have to go out on the map if you want to keep any rts.
<!--quoteo(post=1929812:date=Apr 25 2012, 06:00 PM:name=invTempest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (invTempest @ Apr 25 2012, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To me it seems you want the game to only last 5-10 minutes and be super fast paced (more of a FPS than RTS) which IMO is not what NS2's intended goal is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The reason why I like the current 8-15 min timings is that the rounds are filled with action and a lot of important things to do. The strategy and tactics are still very important even though the games are not long. I did never say however I would not like 15-20 mins games or 20-25 mins games. While they would keep the same gameplay value I would not mind the increase. However longer games does not mean more strategy. (Please note that Charlie actually wrote in the high level document FPS comes before RTS in ns2).
<i>Really?</i> 1 min lerks and 4:30 fades sound like "fine" timing to you? o.0 Whether that's the games you are playing or not, that's the average.
And finally, resource sinks and different ways to earn res ARE needed for aliens as they have nothing to spend it on other than life forms, which ends up with soon to be 16 players on a team all able to fade at once. is this doable with just coordination? yes, and that will have to be addressed with RPS mechanics, but not having pres sinks and other ways to earn it definitely <b>exaggerates </b>the issue /occurence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would be surpriced if any marine team would allow aliens to get fades on 4:30, that would basicly mean that you gave them all the rts they wanted and simply waited for the fades to come out. By our(arc) calculation we expect fades around 6 min mark if we fail our offensive but we usually manage to delay it to 7-8 min mark which is quite good. This is why I don't see anything with the current fade timing.
The dual res system was also made so everyone could go adv lifeform. So if the devs want to change this they need to change the res system. Forcing some kinda res sink into the game won't really help and will probably end up being negative to the gameplay. They should either stick with their system or go for another one. This is why there is nothing wrong with everyone going fade at the same time(at least in 6v6). Marines also have more weapons to deal with the fades. However I could see how this could be a problem with higher player count but RFK won't fix that. (The problem is that marines gain more from tres but aliens gain more from pres. This needs to be balanced for higher number games).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sure games can easily go up to 20 minutes when the late tech is added to the game and one team does not overpower the other. However I think normal game time will probably end up being 8-15 mins because of the similarities to ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's the point though, 8 minutes is an incredibly short average game time, even in an FPS. I've seen Counter-strike rounds that last longer. Also, it's too short of a time for anything even remotely 'strategic' to take place. Yes it's an FPS first, but in 8 - 15 minutes there's hardly even room for a proper RTS element.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Slowing the tres speed even more won't really do anything to make players feel more important. If you deny map control, build or destroy key structures you are already very important part of the match. But like I said in my earlier post, the game is still not complete and most of these issues will probably(hopefully) be fixed closer to release.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No one said anything about slowing T.res speed. We want to slow the p.res speed. On the marine side IMO T.res costs are generally fine, even the tech speed is arguably ok. The issue here is primarily with the lack of T.res sinks and choices and the ridiculously overpowered (too fast and too cheap) augmentation. <b>It is too cheap because at 25 t.res there is no marine equivalent in terms of tech leap, it is too fast because at 6 min there is no marine equivalent for early->midgame advancement</b>
This is further exacerbated by the highest possible lifeforms coming out at 6 (fade) - 8 min (onos) in an average game, again when there is going to be no marine equivalent lategame p.res equipment available at that time. I've stated numerous times that even with the implementation of the exo, this won't be addressed since armory - advc. armory - prototype lab - exo tech + extractors will cost you significantly more than 6 - 8 min worth of T.res to gather AND even if rushed will come at a significant trade-off in terms of marine mobility, weapons and upgrades.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines can fight 2nd hive abilities and still win if they don't allow aliens to get more than 3-4 rts(can't allow them to hold 4 rts for to long). When you got your upgrades up you can deal with lerk, fades and onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree again, there is no way marines can deal with multiple onos. You've said the strategy would be not letting them get to that point, but that can hardly be considered a strategy in 'dealing with an onos'. In saying that, you actually admit if you don't prevent them from hitting onos, aliens win. (Which confirms my argument) I agree to some extent in regards to lerk and fades mind you , performance increases as well as hit reg improvements will help marines in dealing with these 2 lifeforms, even with augmentation. (Though that doesn't negate the fact that at 6 min augmentation is broken by all balance standards)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However longer games does not mean more strategy<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Longer games do imply more strategy in the sense that they allow more time and depth to the 'game plan' that the commander is executing. That is at least provided the comms don't run out of choices (and thus tech) early in the game, like the alien commander does for example. I've played RTS competitively for a short duration, and I am confident there is more strategy involved in a 20 minute game than there is/was in a game that ended in under 5. (Since the game that is won under 5 minutes is usually won by just one or a small amount of strategic decisions by the player)
No one is asking UWE to turn this into an RTS first, but if they're going to offer an RTS element they may as well offer it properly. (Playing the alien commander in its current form can hardly be consider as playing an RTS, it's more like picking some seeds and then watching your plants grow)
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1929864:date=Apr 25 2012, 05:06 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 25 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929864"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->By our(arc) calculation we expect fades around 6 min mark if we fail our offensive but we usually manage to delay it to 7-8 min mark which is quite good. This is why I don't see anything with the current fade timing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I see. No offense Grissi, but your experience is in a bubble, then. We are not talking solely about comp games, let alone Arc's abilities. Notice how i said what the <b>average </b>is? Do you believe pub games have a team of 6 with Arc skills on the marine side everytime? Just because it can happen in fringe cases obviously does not mean its the average. The issue here is what is occurring for <i>most of the time for most players.</i>
<i>"So if the devs want to change this they need to change the res system."</i> Hey, that's what we're saying! :)
<i>"Forcing some kinda res sink into the game won't really help and will probably end up being negative to the gameplay."</i> Please provide an argument of why. We've provided arugments on why we think it will help already. Also dont forget i mentioned <i>methods to earn pres</i> as well. (more important imo!)
<i>"This is why there is nothing wrong with everyone going fade at the same time(at least in 6v6)."</i> Why? Because the game is designed for it? <b>That doesn't mean there is not a problem.</b> In fact there are HUGE 18 page threads dedicated to this Mass Tech issue. Everyone going fade/onos at the same time does indeed result in a win typically if they are half way decent. If you are not in agreement to this there are some folks who would like a word with you around these forums lol, swalk being #1 i believe. <b>This is an issue with RPS mechanics not being effective enough</b>.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes it's an FPS first, but in 8 - 15 minutes there's hardly even room for a proper RTS element.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can have a look at the length of pro starcraft 1 games here ( <a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/NukeTheStars?feature=watch" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/user/NukeTheStars?feature=watch</a> ) but from a quick estimation the mean game time is around 15 minutes. So yes you can have a proper RTS game in 15 minutes.
yeah, but even in lower skilled matches you rarely have games go over 30 minutes. mainly because you're so noob that you make a lot of mistakes. generally the reason matches last any length at all is because you're too bad to capitalize on the other person's mistakes and they're too bad to capitalize on yours.
I also feel like there needs to be a res sink for aliens to limit the amount of high lifeforms at the same time on the field, the problem is not really that lifeforms appear too fast but too many at the same time since there is nothing aliens have to spend pres on - so they all can kinda stack up to fades. You just dont need anything else other than skulks until you got enough res to fade. (sure 1-2 lerks can be useful, tho its getting riskier and riskier the better performance gets)
So the only logical choice for a pres sink is the gorge and commander, but i dont feel like spamming free annoying defence structures is the way to go. He should be needed to build up and spread => helping increasing the alien economy trough his pres.
Sure its okay if he can also places hydras - but they need some cost too. (if aliens do well economy wise the can make the choice to build strategic defences at places, but it shouldnt be something you want to start spamming mindlessly - up and down sides... so you might not be as fast in increasing the alien economy if you choose to place hydras or something tho an area might be a lot saver for some time/delay marines a bit(without forcing them into a heavy tech route) so aliens dont need as much forces to defend there)
So now after this is changed, we might also need to increase marine weapon costs a bit, since there shouldnt be like 4-5 fades at the same time around the 6min mark. (more like 2-3 if ever)
Alien commanders also need a pres sink, tho it needs to be something you cant abuse.
I dont know if and how this will work, i feel like changing the res system - if only for the alien side, would be sooooo much easier to solve many problems.
Now we should increase alien harvester, cc and hive health a bit. Currently the harvester hp is laughable - you can destroy it in 3 clips - this is not cool. Not sure how many kamikaze rambo solo rushes there were in todays matches - its works just too well.
Now that rts are not snipeable and there crazy 6min mark is softer, we can increase the upgrade costs for marines... weapon and armor upgrades should be important and something you want to get - but it shouldnt be main part of strategies or a requirement to have a chance to stay ingame. (like it currently is - not choosing armor 2 and or weapon 2/3 upgrades means game over after 6min for marines no matter what tech you have - since the game focus shifts towards the high lifeforms - you have a hard time defending rts, and an even harder time attacking alien rts)
If weapon and armor upgrades get a little less mandatory we can start to make other tech routes viable. (or it will automatically be a bit more viable to do different things)
Currently you dont see phasegates very often. (because you need the res for weapon and armor upgrades) You dont see jps, because they are way to risky. (dunno what it is, not agile enough, to expensive tech path, map geometry, or only the lack of hmg?) You dont see gls, because they are really expensive and you need more or less your whole squad equipped with them + whips, fades(you kinda need shotguns to fight them), infestation motion tracking - aliens can prepare quite good against all kind of direct rushes.
So the only option currently is arcs, because they need a lot of attention by aliens - they are like little extra players. ("tanks")
Not sure if its really a good idea, or the best way to fix this... tho this patch insipred me: We should also remove the free infestation parasite and use a bit more costly drifter scouts instead(20pres?) - tho they shouldnt be 100% invisible, so you can only find them if you happen to scan the right area (kinda like this flying protoss scouts) - You could even add flare back then :P Main scouting should still be done trough aliens, but you can also use a expensive tactical drifter if you can afford it at areas you cant focus too much on.
There is a lot that needs some change that i left out/ forgot... but thats kinda the direction i would go...
game speed should be adjustable from server provider, like in AOE speed of game kinda thing. I like fast games, but i can see how slowing res flow in large games would be cool. 15 vs 15 games or something
Comments
Sal
The lerk and fades timings are also fine, its just that augmentation is to cheap.
Also after playing this patch for awhile I miss the hive wars, I feel like I'm only fighting rts all game and going the same route over and over. It was more intense when you had to get the 2nd hive down, then you had to kill a 2nd hive and the rts.
In addition, augmentation has in fact added little to no extra choices and depth to the alien commander, which is disappoint in itself. If anything it has taken away another assymetric aspect of NS (the fact that aliens need to expand where as marines can be content with just one base), at little to no actual gain in terms of gameplay.
I sincerely hope they reconsider this move, at least partially, i.e augmentation should be cut into a tech for each ability, which in turn will add more depth, more choices and even a greater trade-off to getting that second hive (faster augmentation teching with 2 hives, not all eggs being put in one basket, etc)
Kind of off-topic but bile bomb and stomp should be third hive abilities (upgrade lvl2 augmentation?). They are the most powerful abilities (an alien with these abilities can single-handedly change the game) and can be gained FAR too easily. The strength of aliens significantly increases within 20 seconds. (5:50 augmentation done, 6:10 lerks/fades with 2nd abilities) There needs to be more of a slight incline instead of 90 degrees.
completely agree with this.
there needs to be severe trade offs like those mentioned in the high level design doc.
currently any other options other than the one quoted above is not as viable/successful
and is definitely not chosen first.
In addition, augmentation has in fact added little to no extra choices and depth to the alien commander, which is disappoint in itself. If anything it has taken away another assymetric aspect of NS (the fact that aliens need to expand where as marines can be content with just one base), at little to no actual gain in terms of gameplay.
I sincerely hope they reconsider this move, at least partially, i.e augmentation should be cut into a tech for each ability, which in turn will add more depth, more choices and even a greater trade-off to getting that second hive (faster augmentation teching with 2 hives, not all eggs being put in one basket, etc)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm basing all my thoughts around the pcw's we have been playing recently. We have actually be winning many of our marines round as well and managing to deal with the fades. We also have had no problem with dealing with onos, if aliens try to do mass onos rush we simply overpower them before they have any chance to get the onos up.
But it feels bit redundant to be fighting rts most of the games. I agree that the 2nd hive and 3rd hive worked better but augmentation is not horrible.
Players are still to stuck in the thinking how things are right now since there are still many things that needs to be fixed. Don't be focused on the balance, you should focus on the mechanics in the game.
About the op post, there is a downside to aliens dieing, they lose map control and need to respawn. They should just keep the spawn time static(like 9 sec) instead of decreasing the more skulks are dead
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulk rushing / marine rushing is too effective which leads to a lot of short uneventful games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not really a problem if you play with static spawns. The problem is that the maps we are playing were not made for close spawns in mind so there are very close rush distances.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Higher lifeforms appear way to early (Symptom of resource system)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem here is that you allow aliens to hold to many rts, the timings are fine in the games we have been playing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No resource sinks for aliens other than lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not really needed
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--># Slow down the resource system by lowering starting pres and cutting pres gain per RT nearly in half. (15 starting pres and .15 pres per RT per 8 seconds)
# Make tech upgrades for both the marines and aliens cost more and take longer to upgrade.
# Arcs need to cost a great deal more than they currently do so marines can't just turtle and spam 30 arcs to win the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't really agree with these points, slowing down the pres hurts the marines more. Techs are already pretty expensive and upgrade speed it not bad.
The lerk and fades timings are also fine, its just that augmentation is to cheap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Augmentation just adds to the pace of the game like I mentioned in the OP. 8-15 minute games IMO are not very fun because there is not much you can do in that time frame. From what I remember the design doc for NS2 stats a desired play time of 20+ minutes for the average game. Obviously some games will last longer and some will be shorter but overall game length should be around 20 minutes.
Slower tech trees makes players feel more important in the outcome of the game. Fast games (5-10 minutes) makes it feel too much like an TDM with very little RTS elements at play.
I would like to see stomp and bile on a second level augmentation too. Maybe have a second level of maturity be needed to do that as well. So bile and stomp hit at around 10-12ish minutes.
6 minutes is when I would hope phase gates could be used in public games, but stomp nullifies that pretty easily plus all the other weaknesses of phase gates at the moment.
I don't consider 3 - 4 extractors to be too many, and that is exactly the amount aliens can reasonably hold without much problem. And at 3 - 4 extractors, aliens can easily dominate the game due to fast onos/augmentation. (Where as marines with similar RT amounts can not) An additional factor to keep into account here is no doubt that on top of aliens needing less tech and thus also less time to reach their 'lategame potential' aliens also have to spend less T.res on replacing harvesters compared to marines (and will generally be more often on offense) due to higher mobility and the ability to intercept marines before they even come close to harassing a harvester (hive sight...).
I'd love to see some of those pcw, but I can't imagine they are very exciting or hold a lot of variety in gameplay if all of them end before the 15 minute mark. Certainly not if they essentially boil down to having to take out a hive before they get onos.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->6 minutes is when I would hope phase gates could be used in public games,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines need phase gates to play offensively in most cases yes, though rushing them usually comes at the cost of no upgrades and no better weapons. Aliens on the other hand are inherently more offensive, and need less tech/time to reach lategame potential on top of that. It doesn't take an experienced player to see what's wrong with this.
This is not really a problem if you play with static spawns. The problem is that the maps we are playing were not made for close spawns in mind so there are very close rush distances.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Static spawns have been removed because they lead to very linear gameplay. Even when we had static spawns this was a big issue and I think it boils down to the fact that all structures (IP's, CC, and hives mainly) have had their health reduced significantly. I'm not a fan of 2 marines or 2 skulks being able to kill a hive/CC in 20 seconds like they can currently.
<!--quoteo(post=1929794:date=Apr 25 2012, 05:30 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 25 2012, 05:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Higher lifeforms appear way to early (Symptom of resource system)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem here is that you allow aliens to hold to many rts, the timings are fine in the games we have been playing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree - The res system is and has been broken for quite some time now. Killing a couple extractors doesn't change much as that really only affects the alien commander. Lerks and fades will still show up way to early because there are no res sinks or need for people to go gorge.
<!--quoteo(post=1929794:date=Apr 25 2012, 05:30 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 25 2012, 05:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No resource sinks for aliens other than lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not really needed
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Without any resource sinks you will always see the same lifeforms at nearly the same time. Aliens need something to limit the number of players that can go fade, lerk, onos at any given time which there currently is none unless you count the gorge (which isn't even needed at this point) being able to help build things. Gorges need a real role and we need to see their use be what creates this res sink otherwise you will never balance 5 marines vs 6 fades (talking competitive games here).
<!--quoteo(post=1929794:date=Apr 25 2012, 05:30 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 25 2012, 05:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--># Slow down the resource system by lowering starting pres and cutting pres gain per RT nearly in half. (15 starting pres and .15 pres per RT per 8 seconds)
# Make tech upgrades for both the marines and aliens cost more and take longer to upgrade.
# Arcs need to cost a great deal more than they currently do so marines can't just turtle and spam 30 arcs to win the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't really agree with these points, slowing down the pres hurts the marines more. Techs are already pretty expensive and upgrade speed it not bad.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tech upgrades are *Very* cheap and have been lowered to give marines a chance to combat the onos in recent patches, which I never liked as it just promotes turtling.
To me it seems you want the game to only last 5-10 minutes and be super fast paced (more of a FPS than RTS) which IMO is not what NS2's intended goal is.
Aliens spawn in "waves" now.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929471" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...amp;pid=1929471</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1929794:date=Apr 25 2012, 02:30 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 25 2012, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem here is that you allow aliens to hold to many rts, the timings are fine in the games we have been playing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>Really?</i> 1 min lerks and 4:30 fades sound like "fine" timing to you? o.0
Whether that's the games you are playing or not, that's the average.
And finally, resource sinks and different ways to earn res ARE needed for aliens as they have nothing to spend it on other than life forms, which ends up with soon to be 16 players on a team all able to fade at once. is this doable with just coordination? yes, and that will have to be addressed with RPS mechanics, but not having pres sinks and other ways to earn it definitely <b>exaggerates </b>the issue /occurence.
Slower tech trees makes players feel more important in the outcome of the game. Fast games (5-10 minutes) makes it feel too much like an TDM with very little RTS elements at play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure games can easily go up to 20 minutes when the late tech is added to the game and one team does not overpower the other. However I think normal game time will probably end up being 8-15 mins because of the similarities to ns1. They also made it clear they wanted the game to be fps first before rts.
Few of the issues with the rts part is the tres cost of things and the resource flow, did you know it actually takes 200 sec for an rt to make 15 res in ns2. With the current cost for the marines it is near impossible to not focus on more than single tech path. Alien commander simply lacks substance. I also feel that ns has always been more of a tactical game than a strategy game. You could also say that ns1 was bit like a tdm.
Slowing the tres speed even more won't really do anything to make players feel more important. If you deny map control, build or destroy key structures you are already very important part of the match. But like I said in my earlier post, the game is still not complete and most of these issues will probably(hopefully) be fixed closer to release.
<!--quoteo(post=1929803:date=Apr 25 2012, 05:42 PM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Apr 25 2012, 05:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929803"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At the moment there is little incentive for marines to do anything besides base trade. It's the most successful strategy for marines bar none.
I would like to see stomp and bile on a second level augmentation too. Maybe have a second level of maturity be needed to do that as well. So bile and stomp hit at around 10-12ish minutes.
6 minutes is when I would hope phase gates could be used in public games, but stomp nullifies that pretty easily plus all the other weaknesses of phase gates at the moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Base trades have always been a risky all in but you could also simply try to overpower the enemy team. The game is definitely not balanced right now but marines can win with a solid strategy, very good coordination and tactical play. We have found ways to deal with most of the things that alien can do but its not easy, you really have to play well to do it.
Marines can fight 2nd hive abilities and still win if they don't allow aliens to get more than 3-4 rts(can't allow them to hold 4 rts for to long). When you got your upgrades up you can deal with lerk, fades and onos.
But I do agree that in the current build there are very few effective strategies, that will probably(again hopefully) be fixed when the game gets closer to release.
<!--quoteo(post=1929808:date=Apr 25 2012, 05:52 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 25 2012, 05:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929808"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't consider 3 - 4 extractors to be too many, and that is exactly the amount aliens can reasonably hold without much problem. And at 3 - 4 extractors, aliens can easily dominate the game due to fast onos/augmentation. (Where as marines with similar RT amounts can not) An additional factor to keep into account here is no doubt that on top of aliens needing less tech and thus also less time to reach their 'lategame potential' aliens also have to spend less T.res on replacing harvesters compared to marines (and will generally be more often on offense) due to higher mobility and the ability to intercept marines before they even come close to harassing a harvester (hive sight...).
I'd love to see some of those pcw, but I can't imagine they are very exciting or hold a lot of variety in gameplay if all of them end before the 15 minute mark. Certainly not if they essentially boil down to having to take out a hive before they get onos.
Marines need phase gates to play offensively in most cases yes, though rushing them usually comes at the cost of no upgrades and no better weapons. Aliens on the other hand are inherently more offensive, and need less tech/time to reach lategame potential on top of that. It doesn't take an experienced player to see what's wrong with this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ns1 and ns2 could be called economy based shooter. In both games the key of victory was to keep the enemy rts very low to have any chance of victory. Just like ns1 keeping the enemy 3 rts or less is the key to success, otherwise you should be expecting high tech/many adv lifeforms. If you keep aliens on 3rts or less the fades won't appear til the 7 min, if you keep them under 3 rts they won't arrive til the 8 min mark which is a huge victory. This is more than enough time to get ready to deal with the fades and take them down when they arrive. This can be seen very well in one of the games we played against 420.
Since ns2 does not have all the tech available yet it does not take long to reach full tech. When the rest of the features get added in the game you will see teams require more rts if they want to get to the highest tech. However if you deny augmentation (I agree btw that its to cheap, but its is possible). The fades are rather easy to deal with.
You can see how we manage to deal with fades and onos in our 2nd marine round vs "all in". You can find the links on the front page (we spawned marines in flight vs alien in atrium). We would probably could have won that round if we had seen bilebomb rush before. We didn't have a counter to them at that time but they won't be a problem for us now.
I'm not saying the game is perfect right now but marines are capable of winnings matches with good play in this build.
<!--quoteo(post=1929812:date=Apr 25 2012, 06:00 PM:name=invTempest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (invTempest @ Apr 25 2012, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Static spawns have been removed because they lead to very linear gameplay. Even when we had static spawns this was a big issue and I think it boils down to the fact that all structures (IP's, CC, and hives mainly) have had their health reduced significantly. I'm not a fan of 2 marines or 2 skulks being able to kill a hive/CC in 20 seconds like they can currently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think random spawns are awesome if the map is made with that in mind and is balanced. Summit was made with static spawns spawns in mind and you can clearly see it from the layout. The current balance of the map can be fairly good to plain horrible depending on the starting positions. Marines are in a huge disadvantage if they spawn in data core since all the areas around data core are to strong for aliens. At the same time sub hive is horrible for the aliens since all the areas around sub are marine based. This has huge affect on competitive play(this is why few teams made changes to summit together, made it static spawn and closed the vent connecting computer lab, sub and ventilation area).
I don't mind random spawns however on public play, like you said it creates diversity. However I would rather play with a solid map with good gameplay than with a possibility of a broken matchup.
About structures hp, the cc might need small increase(just maybe) but the other structures are fine. The commander can take care of stray skulks and you can defend your base with coordination.
<!--quoteo(post=1929812:date=Apr 25 2012, 06:00 PM:name=invTempest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (invTempest @ Apr 25 2012, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree - The res system is and has been broken for quite some time now. Killing a couple extractors doesn't change much as that really only affects the alien commander. Lerks and fades will still show up way to early because there are no res sinks or need for people to go gorge.
Without any resource sinks you will always see the same lifeforms at nearly the same time. Aliens need something to limit the number of players that can go fade, lerk, onos at any given time which there currently is none unless you count the gorge (which isn't even needed at this point) being able to help build things. Gorges need a real role and we need to see their use be what creates this res sink otherwise you will never balance 5 marines vs 6 fades (talking competitive games here).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem here is not res sink, the resource system was created so it would work this way. The reason why you feel like adv lifeforms come to early is because marines don't have much res to get upgrades + other stuff they need.
It actually hurts the aliens a lot to lose a rt, it also really slows the adv lifeforms timings.
Also you have to keep in mind that marines also get more weapons with the extra pres so its much easier to deal with them in ns2 than ns1. If aliens risk it all on mass onos or fades your team should be able to overpower the aliens before that happens. (forcing players to gorge is not a good solution, teams should go for gorge if its useful for their team).
The biggest problem on public is the low skill ceiling for adv lifeforms. It allows almost everyone to play lerk and fade effectively compared to the time it takes to get marine movement/aim up.
In competitive - Marines can force aliens to get no more than 2-3 fades with good play, otherwise they would simply storm their hive and kill it, 3-4 fades can be managed with shotguns and upgrades(they are much weaker in ns2 compared to ns1 fade, not as much hp and no lerk umbra). This is something we have been able to do quite effectively in many of our practice matches
<!--quoteo(post=1929812:date=Apr 25 2012, 06:00 PM:name=invTempest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (invTempest @ Apr 25 2012, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tech upgrades are *Very* cheap and have been lowered to give marines a chance to combat the onos in recent patches, which I never liked as it just promotes turtling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In competitive it always feels that the upgrades are very expensive, its because the enemy team won't allow you to keep many rts up. This means you really have to put pressure on the enemy team and force them to defend their base, this allows you to keep your rts alive. If the enemy team manages to turtle and win against you then you deserve to lose the game. You have to go out on the map if you want to keep any rts.
<!--quoteo(post=1929812:date=Apr 25 2012, 06:00 PM:name=invTempest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (invTempest @ Apr 25 2012, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To me it seems you want the game to only last 5-10 minutes and be super fast paced (more of a FPS than RTS) which IMO is not what NS2's intended goal is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason why I like the current 8-15 min timings is that the rounds are filled with action and a lot of important things to do. The strategy and tactics are still very important even though the games are not long. I did never say however I would not like 15-20 mins games or 20-25 mins games. While they would keep the same gameplay value I would not mind the increase. However longer games does not mean more strategy. (Please note that Charlie actually wrote in the high level document FPS comes before RTS in ns2).
<!--quoteo(post=1929814:date=Apr 25 2012, 06:02 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 25 2012, 06:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929814"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens spawn in "waves" now.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929471" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...amp;pid=1929471</a>
<i>Really?</i> 1 min lerks and 4:30 fades sound like "fine" timing to you? o.0
Whether that's the games you are playing or not, that's the average.
And finally, resource sinks and different ways to earn res ARE needed for aliens as they have nothing to spend it on other than life forms, which ends up with soon to be 16 players on a team all able to fade at once. is this doable with just coordination? yes, and that will have to be addressed with RPS mechanics, but not having pres sinks and other ways to earn it definitely <b>exaggerates </b>the issue /occurence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would be surpriced if any marine team would allow aliens to get fades on 4:30, that would basicly mean that you gave them all the rts they wanted and simply waited for the fades to come out. By our(arc) calculation we expect fades around 6 min mark if we fail our offensive but we usually manage to delay it to 7-8 min mark which is quite good. This is why I don't see anything with the current fade timing.
The dual res system was also made so everyone could go adv lifeform. So if the devs want to change this they need to change the res system. Forcing some kinda res sink into the game won't really help and will probably end up being negative to the gameplay. They should either stick with their system or go for another one.
This is why there is nothing wrong with everyone going fade at the same time(at least in 6v6). Marines also have more weapons to deal with the fades.
However I could see how this could be a problem with higher player count but RFK won't fix that. (The problem is that marines gain more from tres but aliens gain more from pres. This needs to be balanced for higher number games).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Slowing the tres speed even more won't really do anything to make players feel more important. If you deny map control, build or destroy key structures you are already very important part of the match. But like I said in my earlier post, the game is still not complete and most of these issues will probably(hopefully) be fixed closer to release.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No one said anything about slowing T.res speed. We want to slow the p.res speed. On the marine side IMO T.res costs are generally fine, even the tech speed is arguably ok. The issue here is primarily with the lack of T.res sinks and choices and the ridiculously overpowered (too fast and too cheap) augmentation. <b>It is too cheap because at 25 t.res there is no marine equivalent in terms of tech leap, it is too fast because at 6 min there is no marine equivalent for early->midgame advancement</b>
This is further exacerbated by the highest possible lifeforms coming out at 6 (fade) - 8 min (onos) in an average game, again when there is going to be no marine equivalent lategame p.res equipment available at that time. I've stated numerous times that even with the implementation of the exo, this won't be addressed since armory - advc. armory - prototype lab - exo tech + extractors will cost you significantly more than 6 - 8 min worth of T.res to gather AND even if rushed will come at a significant trade-off in terms of marine mobility, weapons and upgrades.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines can fight 2nd hive abilities and still win if they don't allow aliens to get more than 3-4 rts(can't allow them to hold 4 rts for to long). When you got your upgrades up you can deal with lerk, fades and onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree again, there is no way marines can deal with multiple onos. You've said the strategy would be not letting them get to that point, but that can hardly be considered a strategy in 'dealing with an onos'. In saying that, you actually admit if you don't prevent them from hitting onos, aliens win. (Which confirms my argument) I agree to some extent in regards to lerk and fades mind you , performance increases as well as hit reg improvements will help marines in dealing with these 2 lifeforms, even with augmentation. (Though that doesn't negate the fact that at 6 min augmentation is broken by all balance standards)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However longer games does not mean more strategy<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Longer games do imply more strategy in the sense that they allow more time and depth to the 'game plan' that the commander is executing. That is at least provided the comms don't run out of choices (and thus tech) early in the game, like the alien commander does for example. I've played RTS competitively for a short duration, and I am confident there is more strategy involved in a 20 minute game than there is/was in a game that ended in under 5. (Since the game that is won under 5 minutes is usually won by just one or a small amount of strategic decisions by the player)
No one is asking UWE to turn this into an RTS first, but if they're going to offer an RTS element they may as well offer it properly. (Playing the alien commander in its current form can hardly be consider as playing an RTS, it's more like picking some seeds and then watching your plants grow)
I see. No offense Grissi, but your experience is in a bubble, then. We are not talking solely about comp games, let alone Arc's abilities. Notice how i said what the <b>average </b>is? Do you believe pub games have a team of 6 with Arc skills on the marine side everytime? Just because it can happen in fringe cases obviously does not mean its the average. The issue here is what is occurring for <i>most of the time for most players.</i>
<i>"So if the devs want to change this they need to change the res system."</i>
Hey, that's what we're saying! :)
<i>"Forcing some kinda res sink into the game won't really help and will probably end up being negative to the gameplay."</i>
Please provide an argument of why. We've provided arugments on why we think it will help already. Also dont forget i mentioned <i>methods to earn pres</i> as well. (more important imo!)
<i>"This is why there is nothing wrong with everyone going fade at the same time(at least in 6v6)."</i>
Why? Because the game is designed for it? <b>That doesn't mean there is not a problem.</b> In fact there are HUGE 18 page threads dedicated to this Mass Tech issue. Everyone going fade/onos at the same time does indeed result in a win typically if they are half way decent. If you are not in agreement to this there are some folks who would like a word with you around these forums lol, swalk being #1 i believe. <b>This is an issue with RPS mechanics not being effective enough</b>.
You can have a look at the length of pro starcraft 1 games here ( <a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/NukeTheStars?feature=watch" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/user/NukeTheStars?feature=watch</a> ) but from a quick estimation the mean game time is around 15 minutes. So yes you can have a proper RTS game in 15 minutes.
You just dont need anything else other than skulks until you got enough res to fade. (sure 1-2 lerks can be useful, tho its getting riskier and riskier the better performance gets)
So the only logical choice for a pres sink is the gorge and commander, but i dont feel like spamming free annoying defence structures is the way to go. He should be needed to build up and spread => helping increasing the alien economy trough his pres.
Sure its okay if he can also places hydras - but they need some cost too. (if aliens do well economy wise the can make the choice to build strategic defences at places, but it shouldnt be something you want to start spamming mindlessly - up and down sides... so you might not be as fast in increasing the alien economy if you choose to place hydras or something tho an area might be a lot saver for some time/delay marines a bit(without forcing them into a heavy tech route) so aliens dont need as much forces to defend there)
So now after this is changed, we might also need to increase marine weapon costs a bit, since there shouldnt be like 4-5 fades at the same time around the 6min mark. (more like 2-3 if ever)
Alien commanders also need a pres sink, tho it needs to be something you cant abuse.
I dont know if and how this will work, i feel like changing the res system - if only for the alien side, would be sooooo much easier to solve many problems.
Now we should increase alien harvester, cc and hive health a bit.
Currently the harvester hp is laughable - you can destroy it in 3 clips - this is not cool. Not sure how many kamikaze rambo solo rushes there were in todays matches - its works just too well.
Now that rts are not snipeable and there crazy 6min mark is softer, we can increase the upgrade costs for marines... weapon and armor upgrades should be important and something you want to get - but it shouldnt be main part of strategies or a requirement to have a chance to stay ingame. (like it currently is - not choosing armor 2 and or weapon 2/3 upgrades means game over after 6min for marines no matter what tech you have - since the game focus shifts towards the high lifeforms - you have a hard time defending rts, and an even harder time attacking alien rts)
If weapon and armor upgrades get a little less mandatory we can start to make other tech routes viable. (or it will automatically be a bit more viable to do different things)
Currently you dont see phasegates very often. (because you need the res for weapon and armor upgrades)
You dont see jps, because they are way to risky. (dunno what it is, not agile enough, to expensive tech path, map geometry, or only the lack of hmg?)
You dont see gls, because they are really expensive and you need more or less your whole squad equipped with them + whips, fades(you kinda need shotguns to fight them), infestation motion tracking - aliens can prepare quite good against all kind of direct rushes.
So the only option currently is arcs, because they need a lot of attention by aliens - they are like little extra players. ("tanks")
Not sure if its really a good idea, or the best way to fix this... tho this patch insipred me:
We should also remove the free infestation parasite and use a bit more costly drifter scouts instead(20pres?) - tho they shouldnt be 100% invisible, so you can only find them if you happen to scan the right area (kinda like this flying protoss scouts) - You could even add flare back then :P
Main scouting should still be done trough aliens, but you can also use a expensive tactical drifter if you can afford it at areas you cant focus too much on.
There is a lot that needs some change that i left out/ forgot... but thats kinda the direction i would go...