<!--quoteo(post=1934285:date=May 7 2012, 09:24 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 7 2012, 09:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Armories are a noobs tool, and prevent teamwork in the long run when you dissect the positives and negatives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That right there is pure lies, armories allow me to forward deploy mines/munitions and lock down rez. Sometimes using the 'bacon' is not an option to load my team with gl's. I've either got a two pronged attack going or I have a section of map I can't affored to lose marines on. Also, early game I don't have phase tech going and I need players securing areas and I don't have to baby sit them. If a new player so called 'humps' the armory so be it. They will learn because the majority of this community is constructive. Look at what ^A^ is doing.
Welders are a one time 10 t.res investment, (+5 p.res per welder) armories are 10 p.res as well and can't just be dropped 'on the go' as marines push into alien territory. (Unless you're already winning the game and have a lot of spare res anyway) That alone is enough reason to conclude that welders are fine in their current state, just massively underrated.
Again, don't change the game to force player behaviour, that will just result in poor balance. Just give the metagame some time to evolve. Not to mention that with the introduction of EXOs, welders too may become more important.
I do support making welders droppable, certainly when a player dies with it equipped.
<!--quoteo(post=1934497:date=May 8 2012, 10:05 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ May 8 2012, 10:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Welders are a one time 10 t.res investment, (+5 p.res per welder) armories are 10 p.res as well and can't just be dropped 'on the go' as marines push into alien territory. (Unless you're already winning the game and have a lot of spare res anyway) That alone is enough reason to conclude that welders are fine in their current state, just massively underrated.
Again, don't change the game to force player behaviour, that will just result in poor balance. Just give the metagame some time to evolve. Not to mention that with the introduction of EXOs, welders too may become more important.
I do support making welders droppable, certainly when a player dies with it equipped.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->I had at one point made a habit in an especially hopeless encounter to quickly toss my welder in some situations. I gave up a build ago when returning I could never pick it back up, it wouldn't allow it due to a bug. I'm hoping this gets sorted out soon or perhaps welder drops are included on death. There is the issue of them getting in the way of a weapon pickup and then the cost needing a small increase perhaps if this change occurred.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Purely from a personal gameplay perspective, I rarely have enough spare pRes for the welder and other stuff (yes, I die a lot!).
For me, a one off pRes cost on changing it between axe and welder, spawning with whatever you last bought.
It would let me choose a role for a period of time, rather than every time I die. At the moment I just end up with the axe and spend no time thinking about the welder. :(
I'm also with the other that don't like that the welder replaces the axe. With the axe being a super useful tool its hard to give it up. I'm pretty sure pub players would have welders on them a lot more if you didn't have to give up the axe.
Also, ADHD I would <b>love</b> to see your no fwd armories strat in action. Sounds like a brilliant thing to do in comps, saves the rez on building/recycling fwd armories. However, not being able to quickly deal out mines in the early game makes me a tad weary. Plus, you will need a seriously coordinated team (not a problem for comp play) and a really really good comm at multitasking. I could see a hybrid of your strat and a standard one working very well together. One fwd armory to get mines/munitions out early to hold an area and use your strat to push. I like this idea. Let us know how it goes.
Also, I don't see that strat working out so well in pubs, for semi-obvious reasons.
Albe23, You aren't a noob if you are a commander and you exploit forward armories. That makes you smart because you are taking advantage of it. I would personally rather see a nerf to armories, only so that they don't repair armor (Until upgraded to advanced) but still dispense health and weapons. So using armories is still important but they instead don't grant you immunity to any armor damage you received from aliens. Why would I think this is good? Well because then you wont see people camping around armories all day if they know their armor wont be healed. Instead they will rely on the commander for medpacks (Which is how it should be), and teammates for welding their armor.
It would work perfectly in pubs. Go play any other teamplay oriented game like TF2. You have people healing eachother all over and working as a team even in PUBS. To think that its not possible in NS2 is outrageous and pathetic. In my honest opinion the developers made armories so powerful to mimmick the recharging health aspect you see in many shooters today. What I mean is you take some damage... then go camp and hide for a few seconds then pop out again... hardly skill based.
It's gameplay elements like these which kill the incentive for new players to learn more viable and useful tactics. Why expand your game knowledge and get better when all you need is an armory to save the day? Theres no excuse for it to be honest and it doesn't encourage team play at all.
An easy way to fix is to nerf armories so they don't repair armor but instead welders repair armor. Welders should be cheaper and not use up the axe slot so people actually use them. Also there should be on screen text that tells you when to heal a teammate and you should be REWARDED for it with points (Even though points mean nothing). It's simple things like this which make a good game GREAT.
It's those moments of excellent usage of teamwork that make this game rewarding. Otherwise you have people camping armories with a shotgun instead of doing something useful for the team. You can be a self sufficient super killing machine with one regular forward armory (Remind anyone of any modern shooter games??). I think I have made my point.
There is no need to repeat yourself over and over again.(sorry at least i feel like its the same over and over again) Ppl understand what you say, but maybe just dont see the problems you use to backup your suggestion. At least I cant agree. (tho it might just be the lack of experience with those problems)
Btw. Tf2 also has dispensers, and even spawning medpacks or ammo in addition to the medic gun etc. Ns2 is complex it takes time for ppl to adapt and see the usefulness of everything, you dont see a lot of welder use yet but its <u>not</u> because of the armory - looking at other games and how competitive play influenced public play - it just takes time.
e.g. you havent seen wards in pub play in games like dota or lol, but now that ppl see how its done in competitive play ppl realized how useful and great it can be.
Sure it would speed up the welder use if you disabled armorys to heal armor so its kinda a <u>forced </u>tech ppl will need to use, but i dont agree that its a needed step for better gameplay.
PS: its the job of the commander to talk with their team, if you have ppl standing around doing nothing useful then either the comm, or other players maybe should open their mouth and explain them what things they should do and why it is not useful to stand in the base semi afk. Many things in ns2 are not so quickly to understand, because its a very different kind of fps - ppl are used to be able to camp around making nothing useful from other fps, or dont worry about dieing. etc.
You dont want to "force" tech and gameplay, at least not the way removing armor repair on armorys would.
<!--quoteo(post=1934590:date=May 8 2012, 06:12 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 8 2012, 06:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934590"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An easy way to fix is to nerf armories so they don't repair armor but instead welders repair armor. Welders should be cheaper and not use up the axe slot so people actually use them. Also there should be on screen text that tells you when to heal a teammate and you should be REWARDED for it with points (Even though points mean nothing). It's simple things like this which make a good game GREAT.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you make a post talking ###### about how I'm dismissing your idea with no reason..... then make a post discussing the reason why I dismissed your idea. Do you see the problem you're creating here? Next time instead of assuming I'm attacking you, how about we just talk about the game?
Anyways, I pretty much agree with the changes you're proposing to the welder, but the big difference between the welder and healing items in games like TF2 and Battlefield is messaging. Those games put healing items in front of players eyes (with the Medic in class selection, or the heal kit as a starting item in the loadout screen) and make it explicitly clear that they heal (with the name "Medic" or a big health sign). In NS2 you have to go to an armory (?), buy a welder (??) and burn your teammates (???) to give them armor (????). This game really, really needs some tutorializing.
.ADHD I know you aren't saying I'm a noob for droping fwd armories :). Nothin but love over here for everyone.
But, I am having trouble really grasping the meat of your argument. Is this a player education problem or a game mechanic problem or a combo of the two. I agree that the welder is under utilized and I see that as an education/training problem. Or is this a mechanic problem as in the armory is too powerful at healing/armor regen? However, what I interpret from your argument is that a melding of the two is happening.
Also, you gave the example of a player with a fwd armory and a shotgun being a killing machine. Well the armor is a semi-significant investment by the comm and the shotgun being an investment by the marine. I don't see how this is so different than a kham droping a fwd crag (which I think is under utilized sometimes). They do(ish) about the same thing and the marine is the only one that has to hump and face something. The trade off for aliens is the slower heal. I think that is relatively balanced as is.
The comparisons to TF2 I believe aren't fair. The whole game dynamic and education level of that game are far and away from each other. The average player of that game has hundreds of hours into it, and alot like me have lots more. If marines had a medic class it would totaly change its dynamics and I garauntee you that healing would happen. Because it would be obvious and worth while. (I'm not saying that you are saying that a medic should be added just using for examples and stuffs).
As for the incentives you mention I believe they will come. I wouldn't be so worried as of yet. NS2 needs a tutorial, help pages, and in game pop ups for new players. Also, like mentioned before the welder needs to be more of an addition to an arsenal not a compromise (which I think everyone agrees on or majority anyway). I believe the problem that is frustrating you and others is an education problem. Also, I feel that tweaking the armory isn't quite the answer but the education of the player base is the fix.
<u><b>Also, everyone over to camera 3, Jimmy bring me up on 3......</b></u> Can we all agree to keep a level head up in here. The one thing bringing us all together is a desire to make this game better, and play as a community. We are not going to agree on everything, duh. But we can at least carry out our debates without 'attacking' each other. Just stay calm and chive on.....and be respectful. Also, I like jokes, so keep the jokes going. They make me laughs and stuffs.
Mhh... I'm for trying this idea out. It's a beta for a reason. And such a change is done in 5 minutes.
A forward armory is a valid tactic. I use it too. It has many benefits. Free ammo, health, armor and mines. Not only does it spare my pres as commander. (It depletes very fast if you use it regularly for medpacks and ammo.) It's the only viable way to get armor to your marines. Because you can't get sure, that anyone has a welder and you can't drop them as com. In other words, if sieging a hive without ARCs it's the best you can do. Together with GLs, the aliens can do very little against it.
On a side note, I don't believe that the usefulness of welders in pubs is just not discovered by the players. Most of us in the forums aren't noobs. But I bet, that not even 25% of us use the welder regularly. And we should know how "useful" it is. If you look realistically on it, they are not worth the 5 res in a pub game. There simply is not enough coordination going on, to get a use out of the 5 res. How long do you live as marine normally? 1 - 3 min? How often do you come in the situation, that you can use it in this life? Most players will run back to the armory anyway. No matter if you scream at them over the mic. This is a pub game, you can't expect the coordination of a clan match here. So what I'm saying is, you will not see an increasing use of the welder in pub games. No matter how much educated the players are.
Maybe with the exos, the use will increase. (To slow to go back to the armory.) But a few little tweaks could sure be made: <ul><li>At least the welder could be dropped every time you die (additionally to your slot1 weapon).</li><li>Or as an compromise: The armor-regeneration rate of not-advanced armories could be decreased drastically. It should be faster to switch to the welder and weld a marine, than he can get armor back from the armory.</li></ul>
It's not that it will make armories useless. You need ammo too. But it sure will increase teamplay on pubs. Sadly most competitive players are not interested in that topic and only see the dangers for balance this will bring up.
The importance of welding should be brought back. Can anyone imagine a HA (exo) train without welders? Instead, we'll have forward Armories. ;( The Armory should only heal health. As in NS1. For nostalgia? No. As many have mentioned; to promote teamplay. Welding each other (playing as a team) often meant win or lose. In NS2, you just run to the Armory.
The current Marine does not have the survivability in pub games to justifiy any welder cost, maybe the exo suit will give it enough value.
It feels better value to the individual Marine to die or take the long walk back to the armoury, than buy a welder, which is a high price to the Marines team play.
A Marine needs to live longer to make the outlay of a weapon and a support tool worth it. The Marine doesn't have to be stronger, just having a long enough natural pause in the gameplay to allow amour repair within a squad would give the welder some value.
Nobody stands still and having to chase people with the stubby ass welder range or holler at them to stop is no fun. If it gave the person being welded some sort of indication they were being welded it would probably see much more use. Also the fact that you can sprint back to armoury to get your armour repaired makes it more viable to just run back from many places.
<!--quoteo(post=1934784:date=May 9 2012, 10:10 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ May 9 2012, 10:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934784"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mhh... I'm for trying this idea out. It's a beta for a reason. And such a change is done in 5 minutes.
A forward armory is a valid tactic. I use it too. It has many benefits. Free ammo, health, armor and mines. Not only does it spare my pres as commander. (It depletes very fast if you use it regularly for medpacks and ammo.) It's the only viable way to get armor to your marines. Because you can't get sure, that anyone has a welder and you can't drop them as com. In other words, if sieging a hive without ARCs it's the best you can do. Together with GLs, the aliens can do very little against it.
On a side note, I don't believe that the usefulness of welders in pubs is just not discovered by the players. Most of us in the forums aren't noobs. But I bet, that not even 25% of us use the welder regularly. And we should know how "useful" it is. If you look realistically on it, they are not worth the 5 res in a pub game. There simply is not enough coordination going on, to get a use out of the 5 res. How long do you live as marine normally? 1 - 3 min? How often do you come in the situation, that you can use it in this life? Most players will run back to the armory anyway. No matter if you scream at them over the mic. This is a pub game, you can't expect the coordination of a clan match here. So what I'm saying is, you will not see an increasing use of the welder in pub games. No matter how much educated the players are.
Maybe with the exos, the use will increase. (To slow to go back to the armory.) But a few little tweaks could sure be made: <ul><li>At least the welder could be dropped every time you die (additionally to your slot1 weapon).</li><li>Or as an compromise: The armor-regeneration rate of not-advanced armories could be decreased drastically. It should be faster to switch to the welder and weld a marine, than he can get armor back from the armory.</li></ul>
It's not that it will make armories useless. You need ammo too. But it sure will increase teamplay on pubs. Sadly most competitive players are not interested in that topic and only see the dangers for balance this will bring up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Necro I agree with your post 100% because you are proving my point even further. People know how useful welders are but still don't use them... why? The answer is because they are obsolete compared to armories that do EVERYTHING for you. And by the way... it IS faster to switch to a welder to fix a marine than an armory... why isn't it used more? Because of the armories themselves. They are epic noob humpfest machines. That's the plain truth. I placed an armory in vent today for my team... nobody ever left vent... not even to kill the DC harvester... which they easily could have. Only 1-2 other competent people were scouting the rest of the map for RT's. I tend to avoid dropping forward armories now because they hinder marine expansion.
Join a public game today and watch where people tend to camp around the entire game.. then ask yourself if this is really helping gameplay / teaching new players.
Many other people claim that there is no time to weld teammates, and that the welding range is small and unintuitive. Well I blame the former on mappers who make it so aliens can get anywhere in the map in less than 20 seconds. Play NS1 and you will see that killing a skulk will yield you up to a minute before next engagement. Giving you and your teammate plenty of time to re-armor. But it seems that either the engine... or the trend has caused maps to be small in size. Summit is the most popular map in the game currently and I would argue it's the worst due to it's size and predictability. It's more of an arena than a large unpredictable gameworld.
This is 2012 and the trend in hardware and videogames is to be BIGGER... yet compactness is killing the true potential of rounds in this game.
And for my last comment I would like to say that the sprint feature on marines encourages running back into your own territory for armor. I never really understood why marines had a sprint option... other than the fact that every other modern FPS game has it now. Sprint should be allowed for very short but fast traversing to gain cover and etc.... not to be the next kenyan olympic runner.
<!--quoteo(post=1934892:date=May 9 2012, 06:43 PM:name=Rover)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rover @ May 9 2012, 06:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd suggest waiting until exo is in the game before revisiting welders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Imagine exosuits aren't even planned. Can we talk about welders now? A lot of people have brought up interesting perspectives in this thread, because they were brave enough to think instead of placing this entire game's success on stuff nobody has seen yet.
<!--quoteo(post=1934914:date=May 9 2012, 03:21 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 9 2012, 03:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Imagine exosuits aren't even planned. Can we talk about welders now? A lot of people have brought up interesting perspectives in this thread, because they were brave enough to think instead of placing this entire game's success on stuff nobody has seen yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
don't be scared away by the feelings of others, you breathe life into this place, you don't need this forum as much as it needs you.
Honestly there'd only need to be one of two potential changes made to welders to make me more excited about buying them:
1) Increase their DPS to slightly above the axe so they make a noticeable but not dramatic difference in the amount of time it takes to kill alien structures.
2) Have welders drop on the ground if the marine has them equipped when killed, similar to how GLs and such work.
I don't feel that welders are that far off (and it's really tough to say without seeing Exosuits yet), but either of the small above changes would make me more prone to use/research them in current games.
<!--quoteo(post=1934914:date=May 10 2012, 01:21 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 10 2012, 01:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Imagine exosuits aren't even planned. Can we talk about welders now? A lot of people have brought up interesting perspectives in this thread, because they were brave enough to think instead of placing this entire game's success on stuff nobody has seen yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, let's talk about more fixes for things that haven't even reached their full potential yet. And then ###### about them again later. Productive.
<!--quoteo(post=1935196:date=May 10 2012, 03:08 PM:name=Rover)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rover @ May 10 2012, 03:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935196"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, let's talk about more fixes for things that haven't even reached their full potential yet. And then ###### about them again later. Productive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nothing wrong with <i>talking about them</i>. My hope is that with enough talk, we could all agree that welders are fine as they are now (my position from the beginning).
I'm just saying it's sorta unhelpful to answer every discussion with "Exosuit's coming" or "Shift's coming" or "When it's done" or whatever else comes to mind. You don't <i>have </i>to post.
<!--quoteo(post=1935275:date=May 11 2012, 12:22 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 11 2012, 12:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935275"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nothing wrong with <i>talking about them</i>. My hope is that with enough talk, we could all agree that welders are fine as they are now (my position from the beginning).
I'm just saying it's sorta unhelpful to answer every discussion with "Exosuit's coming" or "Shift's coming" or "When it's done" or whatever else comes to mind. You don't <i>have </i>to post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Saying exo will change the importance of the welder again <b>is</b> talking about the welder.
<!--quoteo(post=1935277:date=May 10 2012, 06:25 PM:name=Rover)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rover @ May 10 2012, 06:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Saying exo will change the importance of the welder again <b>is</b> talking about the welder.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But it's an extremely cheap way out, since the exosuit has absolutely nothing to do with the current state of the game (which is what we're all discussing). If, down the road, the practical purpose of the welder is "welding exosuits", why is it available like 30 seconds into the game for a low res cost? I think it's better to discuss and agree/disagree that the welder fits the current (mostly-complete) game rather than to focus on how it <i>could potentially</i> fit the exosuit in a future version of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1935284:date=May 11 2012, 12:36 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 11 2012, 12:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935284"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But it's an extremely cheap way out, since the exosuit has absolutely nothing to do with the current state of the game (which is what we're all discussing). If, down the road, the practical purpose of the welder is "welding exosuits", why is it available like 30 seconds into the game for a low res cost? I think it's better to discuss and agree/disagree that the welder fits the current (mostly-complete) game rather than to focus on how it <i>could potentially</i> fit the exosuit in a future version of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Alright, here, fixed:
<i>Yes, let's talk about more fixes for things that haven't even reached their full potential yet. And then ###### about them again later. Productive.</i> I think the welder is fine right now.
He just doesnt get it Internetexplorer... oh well, you tried.
Ontopic: the hold "E" to quickly take out your welder (while targeting marines) is a pretty solid idea. Might make marines a tad OP when grouped together but thats kinda their niche. Marines are better in groups, aliens are better solo. (excluding late game onos/gorge combos)
<!--quoteo(post=1935295:date=May 11 2012, 01:17 AM:name=Wiltdog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wiltdog @ May 11 2012, 01:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He just doesnt get it Internetexplorer... oh well, you tried.
Ontopic: the hold "E" to quickly take out your welder (while targeting marines) is a pretty solid idea. Might make marines a tad OP when grouped together but thats kinda their niche. Marines are better in groups, aliens are better solo. (excluding late game onos/gorge combos)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is "I think the welder is fine" any less valid a point than discussing possible changes to it?
Comments
It needs to be adressed.
That right there is pure lies, armories allow me to forward deploy mines/munitions and lock down rez. Sometimes using the 'bacon' is not an option to load my team with gl's. I've either got a two pronged attack going or I have a section of map I can't affored to lose marines on. Also, early game I don't have phase tech going and I need players securing areas and I don't have to baby sit them. If a new player so called 'humps' the armory so be it. They will learn because the majority of this community is constructive. Look at what ^A^ is doing.
Again, don't change the game to force player behaviour, that will just result in poor balance. Just give the metagame some time to evolve. Not to mention that with the introduction of EXOs, welders too may become more important.
I do support making welders droppable, certainly when a player dies with it equipped.
Again, don't change the game to force player behaviour, that will just result in poor balance. Just give the metagame some time to evolve. Not to mention that with the introduction of EXOs, welders too may become more important.
I do support making welders droppable, certainly when a player dies with it equipped.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->I had at one point made a habit in an especially hopeless encounter to quickly toss my welder in some situations. I gave up a build ago when returning I could never pick it back up, it wouldn't allow it due to a bug. I'm hoping this gets sorted out soon or perhaps welder drops are included on death. There is the issue of them getting in the way of a weapon pickup and then the cost needing a small increase perhaps if this change occurred.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
For me, a one off pRes cost on changing it between axe and welder, spawning with whatever you last bought.
It would let me choose a role for a period of time, rather than every time I die. At the moment I just end up with the axe and spend no time thinking about the welder. :(
Also, ADHD I would <b>love</b> to see your no fwd armories strat in action. Sounds like a brilliant thing to do in comps, saves the rez on building/recycling fwd armories. However, not being able to quickly deal out mines in the early game makes me a tad weary. Plus, you will need a seriously coordinated team (not a problem for comp play) and a really really good comm at multitasking. I could see a hybrid of your strat and a standard one working very well together. One fwd armory to get mines/munitions out early to hold an area and use your strat to push. I like this idea. Let us know how it goes.
Also, I don't see that strat working out so well in pubs, for semi-obvious reasons.
You aren't a noob if you are a commander and you exploit forward armories. That makes you smart because you are taking advantage of it. I would personally rather see a nerf to armories, only so that they don't repair armor (Until upgraded to advanced) but still dispense health and weapons. So using armories is still important but they instead don't grant you immunity to any armor damage you received from aliens. Why would I think this is good? Well because then you wont see people camping around armories all day if they know their armor wont be healed. Instead they will rely on the commander for medpacks (Which is how it should be), and teammates for welding their armor.
It would work perfectly in pubs. Go play any other teamplay oriented game like TF2. You have people healing eachother all over and working as a team even in PUBS. To think that its not possible in NS2 is outrageous and pathetic. In my honest opinion the developers made armories so powerful to mimmick the recharging health aspect you see in many shooters today. What I mean is you take some damage... then go camp and hide for a few seconds then pop out again... hardly skill based.
It's gameplay elements like these which kill the incentive for new players to learn more viable and useful tactics. Why expand your game knowledge and get better when all you need is an armory to save the day? Theres no excuse for it to be honest and it doesn't encourage team play at all.
An easy way to fix is to nerf armories so they don't repair armor but instead welders repair armor. Welders should be cheaper and not use up the axe slot so people actually use them. Also there should be on screen text that tells you when to heal a teammate and you should be REWARDED for it with points (Even though points mean nothing). It's simple things like this which make a good game GREAT.
It's those moments of excellent usage of teamwork that make this game rewarding. Otherwise you have people camping armories with a shotgun instead of doing something useful for the team. You can be a self sufficient super killing machine with one regular forward armory (Remind anyone of any modern shooter games??). I think I have made my point.
At least I cant agree. (tho it might just be the lack of experience with those problems)
Btw. Tf2 also has dispensers, and even spawning medpacks or ammo in addition to the medic gun etc.
Ns2 is complex it takes time for ppl to adapt and see the usefulness of everything, you dont see a lot of welder use yet but its <u>not</u> because of the armory - looking at other games and how competitive play influenced public play - it just takes time.
e.g. you havent seen wards in pub play in games like dota or lol, but now that ppl see how its done in competitive play ppl realized how useful and great it can be.
Sure it would speed up the welder use if you disabled armorys to heal armor so its kinda a <u>forced </u>tech ppl will need to use, but i dont agree that its a needed step for better gameplay.
PS: its the job of the commander to talk with their team, if you have ppl standing around doing nothing useful then either the comm, or other players maybe should open their mouth and explain them what things they should do and why it is not useful to stand in the base semi afk. Many things in ns2 are not so quickly to understand, because its a very different kind of fps - ppl are used to be able to camp around making nothing useful from other fps, or dont worry about dieing. etc.
You dont want to "force" tech and gameplay, at least not the way removing armor repair on armorys would.
So you make a post talking ###### about how I'm dismissing your idea with no reason..... then make a post discussing the reason why I dismissed your idea. Do you see the problem you're creating here? Next time instead of assuming I'm attacking you, how about we just talk about the game?
Anyways, I pretty much agree with the changes you're proposing to the welder, but the big difference between the welder and healing items in games like TF2 and Battlefield is messaging. Those games put healing items in front of players eyes (with the Medic in class selection, or the heal kit as a starting item in the loadout screen) and make it explicitly clear that they heal (with the name "Medic" or a big health sign). In NS2 you have to go to an armory (?), buy a welder (??) and burn your teammates (???) to give them armor (????). This game really, really needs some tutorializing.
But, I am having trouble really grasping the meat of your argument. Is this a player education problem or a game mechanic problem or a combo of the two. I agree that the welder is under utilized and I see that as an education/training problem. Or is this a mechanic problem as in the armory is too powerful at healing/armor regen? However, what I interpret from your argument is that a melding of the two is happening.
Also, you gave the example of a player with a fwd armory and a shotgun being a killing machine. Well the armor is a semi-significant investment by the comm and the shotgun being an investment by the marine. I don't see how this is so different than a kham droping a fwd crag (which I think is under utilized sometimes). They do(ish) about the same thing and the marine is the only one that has to hump and face something. The trade off for aliens is the slower heal. I think that is relatively balanced as is.
The comparisons to TF2 I believe aren't fair. The whole game dynamic and education level of that game are far and away from each other. The average player of that game has hundreds of hours into it, and alot like me have lots more. If marines had a medic class it would totaly change its dynamics and I garauntee you that healing would happen. Because it would be obvious and worth while. (I'm not saying that you are saying that a medic should be added just using for examples and stuffs).
As for the incentives you mention I believe they will come. I wouldn't be so worried as of yet. NS2 needs a tutorial, help pages, and in game pop ups for new players. Also, like mentioned before the welder needs to be more of an addition to an arsenal not a compromise (which I think everyone agrees on or majority anyway). I believe the problem that is frustrating you and others is an education problem. Also, I feel that tweaking the armory isn't quite the answer but the education of the player base is the fix.
<u><b>Also, everyone over to camera 3, Jimmy bring me up on 3......</b></u>
Can we all agree to keep a level head up in here. The one thing bringing us all together is a desire to make this game better, and play as a community. We are not going to agree on everything, duh. But we can at least carry out our debates without 'attacking' each other. Just stay calm and chive on.....and be respectful. Also, I like jokes, so keep the jokes going. They make me laughs and stuffs.
A forward armory is a valid tactic. I use it too. It has many benefits. Free ammo, health, armor and mines. Not only does it spare my pres as commander. (It depletes very fast if you use it regularly for medpacks and ammo.) It's the only viable way to get armor to your marines. Because you can't get sure, that anyone has a welder and you can't drop them as com.
In other words, if sieging a hive without ARCs it's the best you can do. Together with GLs, the aliens can do very little against it.
On a side note, I don't believe that the usefulness of welders in pubs is just not discovered by the players. Most of us in the forums aren't noobs. But I bet, that not even 25% of us use the welder regularly. And we should know how "useful" it is.
If you look realistically on it, they are not worth the 5 res in a pub game. There simply is not enough coordination going on, to get a use out of the 5 res. How long do you live as marine normally? 1 - 3 min? How often do you come in the situation, that you can use it in this life? Most players will run back to the armory anyway. No matter if you scream at them over the mic. This is a pub game, you can't expect the coordination of a clan match here. So what I'm saying is, you will not see an increasing use of the welder in pub games. No matter how much educated the players are.
Maybe with the exos, the use will increase. (To slow to go back to the armory.)
But a few little tweaks could sure be made:
<ul><li>At least the welder could be dropped every time you die (additionally to your slot1 weapon).</li><li>Or as an compromise: The armor-regeneration rate of not-advanced armories could be decreased drastically. It should be faster to switch to the welder and weld a marine, than he can get armor back from the armory.</li></ul>
It's not that it will make armories useless. You need ammo too. But it sure will increase teamplay on pubs. Sadly most competitive players are not interested in that topic and only see the dangers for balance this will bring up.
I will not agree that nerfing armories will make them used more.
I will agree that they take the axe spot is a deterrent to them being bought. The Axe is GREAT taking down structures, the welder is NOT.
Having the Armories do everything healing, weapons, armor does make the game easier to pick up and play.
That is a good thing.
Stop yelling :-)
It feels better value to the individual Marine to die or take the long walk back to the armoury, than buy a welder, which is a high price to the Marines team play.
A Marine needs to live longer to make the outlay of a weapon and a support tool worth it. The Marine doesn't have to be stronger, just having a long enough natural pause in the gameplay to allow amour repair within a squad would give the welder some value.
A forward armory is a valid tactic. I use it too. It has many benefits. Free ammo, health, armor and mines. Not only does it spare my pres as commander. (It depletes very fast if you use it regularly for medpacks and ammo.) It's the only viable way to get armor to your marines. Because you can't get sure, that anyone has a welder and you can't drop them as com.
In other words, if sieging a hive without ARCs it's the best you can do. Together with GLs, the aliens can do very little against it.
On a side note, I don't believe that the usefulness of welders in pubs is just not discovered by the players. Most of us in the forums aren't noobs. But I bet, that not even 25% of us use the welder regularly. And we should know how "useful" it is.
If you look realistically on it, they are not worth the 5 res in a pub game. There simply is not enough coordination going on, to get a use out of the 5 res. How long do you live as marine normally? 1 - 3 min? How often do you come in the situation, that you can use it in this life? Most players will run back to the armory anyway. No matter if you scream at them over the mic. This is a pub game, you can't expect the coordination of a clan match here. So what I'm saying is, you will not see an increasing use of the welder in pub games. No matter how much educated the players are.
Maybe with the exos, the use will increase. (To slow to go back to the armory.)
But a few little tweaks could sure be made:
<ul><li>At least the welder could be dropped every time you die (additionally to your slot1 weapon).</li><li>Or as an compromise: The armor-regeneration rate of not-advanced armories could be decreased drastically. It should be faster to switch to the welder and weld a marine, than he can get armor back from the armory.</li></ul>
It's not that it will make armories useless. You need ammo too. But it sure will increase teamplay on pubs. Sadly most competitive players are not interested in that topic and only see the dangers for balance this will bring up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Necro I agree with your post 100% because you are proving my point even further. People know how useful welders are but still don't use them... why? The answer is because they are obsolete compared to armories that do EVERYTHING for you. And by the way... it IS faster to switch to a welder to fix a marine than an armory... why isn't it used more? Because of the armories themselves. They are epic noob humpfest machines. That's the plain truth. I placed an armory in vent today for my team... nobody ever left vent... not even to kill the DC harvester... which they easily could have. Only 1-2 other competent people were scouting the rest of the map for RT's. I tend to avoid dropping forward armories now because they hinder marine expansion.
Join a public game today and watch where people tend to camp around the entire game.. then ask yourself if this is really helping gameplay / teaching new players.
Many other people claim that there is no time to weld teammates, and that the welding range is small and unintuitive. Well I blame the former on mappers who make it so aliens can get anywhere in the map in less than 20 seconds. Play NS1 and you will see that killing a skulk will yield you up to a minute before next engagement. Giving you and your teammate plenty of time to re-armor. But it seems that either the engine... or the trend has caused maps to be small in size. Summit is the most popular map in the game currently and I would argue it's the worst due to it's size and predictability. It's more of an arena than a large unpredictable gameworld.
This is 2012 and the trend in hardware and videogames is to be BIGGER... yet compactness is killing the true potential of rounds in this game.
And for my last comment I would like to say that the sprint feature on marines encourages running back into your own territory for armor. I never really understood why marines had a sprint option... other than the fact that every other modern FPS game has it now. Sprint should be allowed for very short but fast traversing to gain cover and etc.... not to be the next kenyan olympic runner.
Imagine exosuits aren't even planned. Can we talk about welders now? A lot of people have brought up interesting perspectives in this thread, because they were brave enough to think instead of placing this entire game's success on stuff nobody has seen yet.
don't be scared away by the feelings of others, you breathe life into this place, you don't need this forum as much as it needs you.
1) Increase their DPS to slightly above the axe so they make a noticeable but not dramatic difference in the amount of time it takes to kill alien structures.
2) Have welders drop on the ground if the marine has them equipped when killed, similar to how GLs and such work.
I don't feel that welders are that far off (and it's really tough to say without seeing Exosuits yet), but either of the small above changes would make me more prone to use/research them in current games.
Yes, let's talk about more fixes for things that haven't even reached their full potential yet. And then ###### about them again later. Productive.
Nothing wrong with <i>talking about them</i>. My hope is that with enough talk, we could all agree that welders are fine as they are now (my position from the beginning).
I'm just saying it's sorta unhelpful to answer every discussion with "Exosuit's coming" or "Shift's coming" or "When it's done" or whatever else comes to mind. You don't <i>have </i>to post.
I'm just saying it's sorta unhelpful to answer every discussion with "Exosuit's coming" or "Shift's coming" or "When it's done" or whatever else comes to mind. You don't <i>have </i>to post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Saying exo will change the importance of the welder again <b>is</b> talking about the welder.
But it's an extremely cheap way out, since the exosuit has absolutely nothing to do with the current state of the game (which is what we're all discussing).
If, down the road, the practical purpose of the welder is "welding exosuits", why is it available like 30 seconds into the game for a low res cost? I think it's better to discuss and agree/disagree that the welder fits the current (mostly-complete) game rather than to focus on how it <i>could potentially</i> fit the exosuit in a future version of the game.
If, down the road, the practical purpose of the welder is "welding exosuits", why is it available like 30 seconds into the game for a low res cost? I think it's better to discuss and agree/disagree that the welder fits the current (mostly-complete) game rather than to focus on how it <i>could potentially</i> fit the exosuit in a future version of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright, here, fixed:
<i>Yes, let's talk about more fixes for things that haven't even reached their full potential yet. And then ###### about them again later. Productive.</i> I think the welder is fine right now.
Ontopic: the hold "E" to quickly take out your welder (while targeting marines) is a pretty solid idea. Might make marines a tad OP when grouped together but thats kinda their niche. Marines are better in groups, aliens are better solo. (excluding late game onos/gorge combos)
Remove everything else except marines and skulks for the best solution. This is true vanilla ns2.
Ontopic: the hold "E" to quickly take out your welder (while targeting marines) is a pretty solid idea. Might make marines a tad OP when grouped together but thats kinda their niche. Marines are better in groups, aliens are better solo. (excluding late game onos/gorge combos)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is "I think the welder is fine" any less valid a point than discussing possible changes to it?