IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
so 25 comm energy anytime he uses his easy to refill spore pool? No thanks :)
And , it did happen, on tram. I used to love projectile sporing as long as i was lerking. I hated it as a marine, frustrating beyond belief. <b>It has been tried before, and it was terrible.</b>
Once again, i am not saying it can never work, sigh... i am saying its a terrible mechanic that has been tried, and failed horribly, there are better solutions!
<!--quoteo(post=1937781:date=May 20 2012, 06:36 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 20 2012, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so 25 comm energy anytime he uses his easy to refill spore pool? No thanks :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, it's 25 energy any time a lerk is harassing something and you know your marines could kill it if they had a scan to help
any other time, and you have to shrug off the damage while working toward the situation where you can kill the lerk
<!--quoteo(post=1937781:date=May 20 2012, 06:36 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 20 2012, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>It has been tried before, and it was terrible.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the idea of the spores spreading out when they were launched as the lerk flies by.
As you can see in this video <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Yy5S9pa_nVk#t=354s" target="_blank">here</a>, if you examine the smoke as the plane flies through, it is thrusted down and spread out sideways. What about having that kind of effect when the lerk flies spreading his spores?
As explained <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Yy5S9pa_nVk#t=317s" target="_blank">here</a>, "High pressure air from underneath the wing is leaking around the wing tip and pushing down on the top surface."
Mind you, I don't propose that the spores have massive vortices as demonstrated in the videos above, but I do think that would be a realistic approach to getting the spores to spread out sideways. There could possibly even be a factor of lerk airspeed relative to how far the spores spread.
<!--quoteo(post=1937785:date=May 20 2012, 06:42 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 20 2012, 06:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was projectile from day 1 until around Sept 2011.
Not FlayraJoin Date: 2012-05-18Member: 152282Members
<!--quoteo(post=1937791:date=May 20 2012, 05:01 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 20 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937791"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh. I didn't play at that time because the game wasn't playable. I guess that's a fair time to evaluate all the mechanics, right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Weird. I was playing it then. I do not think that word means what you think that word means.
I didn't play until build 160 or so because the game wouldn't stay running for more than 20 seconds or so. Not everybody who had access to the alpha/beta stages was able to play.
<!--quoteo(post=1937790:date=May 20 2012, 04:00 PM:name=Blasphemy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blasphemy @ May 20 2012, 04:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937790"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the idea of the spores spreading out when they were launched as the lerk flies by.
As you can see in this video <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Yy5S9pa_nVk#t=354s" target="_blank">here</a>, if you examine the smoke as the plane flies through, it is thrusted down and spread out sideways. What about having that kind of effect when the lerk flies spreading his spores?
As explained <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Yy5S9pa_nVk#t=317s" target="_blank">here</a>, "High pressure air from underneath the wing is leaking around the wing tip and pushing down on the top surface."
Mind you, I don't propose that the spores have massive vortices as demonstrated in the videos above, but I do think that would be a realistic approach to getting the spores to spread out sideways. There could possibly even be a factor of lerk airspeed relative to how far the spores spread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ooh, great idea! I love the current implementation of the "crop-duster" spores that drop down to the ground, so this horizontal spread would make it even better!
<!--quoteo(post=1937768:date=May 21 2012, 09:13 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 21 2012, 09:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937768"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>Why are you so stuck on projectile?</i> The aliens are primarily melee based. NS1 had lerk bite, but no one seemed to complain about that, in fact most ask for it to make a come back!
Projectile spores aren't the only solution.
<b>In fact i wouldn't even call them a solution of any kind.</b> Not ever having a chance to visibly identify and combat your opponent was not a solution of any form. (see my earlier posts for more explanation) Address the root of the problem and you wouldn't even suggest such a flawed mechanic; Lerk survivability/viability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Final comment from me as I have made my points already... NS1 initially had lerk gas as a projectile coupled with spores...this is actually what UW returned to initially in ns2. Later they lost spores then spikes (maybe other way round..was a few years ago) and got bite under the claim that "aliens are all melee". This saw the number of lerks drop off massively and more fades/onos appear in their place (though no comm meant pres was spent on hives etc). This melee only approach was abandoned in ns2 as they conceded that lerk was not designed for melee and as such went back to the classic lerk form. The fact it was taken out so early in the build is sad and shows a response to complaints from people who wanted to turle their base and not spend money on scans (or look at their minimap). This was also before we had a full suite of alien lifeforms to chose from (ie only lerk or fade..no onos).
If aliens are meant to be melee only then why do we have gorge spit or lerk spikes? Why are marines able to compete 1v1 against aliens who should have the clear melee advantage? Why did they originally have spike and spores as projectile?
SImply because they hated what had become of the lerk in NS1 once they stripped away all its ranged attacks and left it with this "melee only" design, truth is a flying melee based alien is a joke and does not stand a chance in combat for any length of time. 30 Res they cost..and unlike shotties or GL...you cant pick up your mates dead lerk and use it like you can with marine weapons. The only way aliens can win is via spending their Pres...so they have to be careful on what they spend on. A lerk is no better than a skulk but where a skulk is free...lerk costs 30 Pres. It makes more sense to stay skulk as the lerk is not designed for up close and personal attacking, by flying you increase your hitbox's thanks to the wingspan. Everyone complains about the sudden appearnce of 3 fades or onos, well with the lerk being so underpowered considering the res outlay this is never going to change. Make the lerk worth taking the risk of res on by offering a different attacking style to the other aliens, this would then lead to people lerking instead of just saving for fade or onos (which is what 95% of people appear to do). This would mean you wont have 3 fades appearing all at once, you will have had at least 1 lerk early in the game reducing the numbers of fades/onos that appear later in one hit.
Sure lerk gas sucks as a marine...but there are a lot of things that suck from the aliens perspoective; two-three sentry turrets makes it almost impossible to attack a base without atleast 2 fades preferably with an onos. Mines are OP'd and often spammed around a base (have seen over 35 mines in some bases). GL's cut through infestation/whips/hydras like a hot knife through butter, having taken a hell of a lot longer to build than take down (unlike marines structures which take as long or longer to take down as build).
Your claiming that lerk gas is not a valid weapon...then why are you so adamant it not return? If its so lame and not a solution what is it you fear? I know...that it did actually work, forced the marines not to sit in base and simply repair 3 but actually chase down an attacking lerk and risk getting killed. For something that was such a poor game mechanic...it seemed to actually work pretty damn well. Sorry but I dont think the aliens are there simply for target practice. They should have a chance of winning...and not having to wait until the onos is on the battlefield. Lerks should be able to change games. MT, jp's, gl and shotties are all great at fiding and killing that gassing lerk. But do require the marine to move and find the alien if lerks have a projectile gas...not simply wait in base for the alien to attack.
The fact that the push off feature for phase gates and IP's was introduced shows how vocal the marine side is. There is no similar push off for alien eggs. Aliens are melee so can only attack an IP up close, getting pushed back to allow a marine to spawn and get his bearing is biased. If the aliens have made it into the base and started to chomp an IP..they have taken out a few marines to do this and dont deserve to be handicapped. Aliens dont get a similar grace if marines are in their base killing eggs/hive. You often spawn and die as aliens The only decent ranged weapon that aleins had was nerfed and the fragile lerk forced into close quarters combat.
/sarcasm. We might as well add in res for kills too....punish those aliens for getting killed and reward our leet shooting..currently they can just attack and attack with no penalty...there should be some reward for my good shooting skills. /end sarcasm
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1937817:date=May 20 2012, 08:36 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ May 20 2012, 08:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its like people aren't actually reading what i write, even after i clarify a second time. :( But don't worry, Internetexplorer,*Cracks knuckles*<i> I got this one.</i>
<i>"shows a response to complaints from people who wanted to turle their base"</i> More like, <b>'Not ever having a chance to visibly identify and combat your opponent'</b>.. Who actually called for mechanics with an end goal in mind of turtling?? Love to see this post, lol.
<i>"If aliens are meant to be melee only "</i> Never said this. I used an example of a melee weapon on the same class, merely to demonstrate a lack of reason other than nostalgia, being the driving factor for a call to change in design; to be reverted to a method that was tested in this current game (Not ns1) for roughly a year and found lacking.
You got your history backwards, I think.. As i can't remember a time between first lerk play and Sept 2011, that he "went back to the classic lerk form" and lost projectile spores?? Or maybe my memory is bad?
<i>"flying you increase your hitbox's thanks to the wingspan."</i> No, your wings take something negligible like 10% of potential damage.
<i>"Make the lerk worth taking the risk of res on by offering a different attacking style to the other aliens,"</i> Change for the sake of change usually gets a bad rep around here, i'm surprised to hear it suggested. 0.0
<i>"Sure lerk gas sucks as a marine...but there are a lot of things that suck from the aliens perspoective; "</i> So you're saying you want to increase the amount of frustrating gameplay that sucks? Again i am surprised to hear this suggested.
<i>"two-three sentry turrets makes it almost impossible to attack a base without atleast 2 fades"</i> Lerk spores plus gorge's BB should make light work of that.
<i>"Your claiming that lerk <strike>gas </strike> projectile spores is not a valid weapon...then why are you so adamant it not return? I know...that it did actually work,"</i> Fixed, and : the answer is the sentence you quoted me, and that i re quoted myself above, regarding combating an opponent. Because as you so adequately put it: "lerk gas(projectile spores) sucks as a marine"
<i>"There is no similar push off for alien eggs. "</i> WAAAYY on a tangent there, but hey i'll bite: When marines get dozens of fake IPs that you cant tell are spawning, you'll have my vote to remove spawn pushback.
<b><u>Bottom line again:</u></b> You are thinking projectile lerk spores are the <b>only </b>solution to making the lerk viable and assist in ending turtling marines. Try thinking out of the box, or better yet... just wait and see. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1937865:date=May 21 2012, 07:48 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 21 2012, 07:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its like people aren't actually reading what i write, even after i clarify a second time. :( But don't worry, Internetexplorer,*Cracks knuckles*<i> I got this one.</i>
<i>"shows a response to complaints from people who wanted to turle their base"</i> More like, <b>'Not ever having a chance to visibly identify and combat your opponent'</b>.. Who actually called for mechanics with an end goal in mind of turtling?? Love to see this post, lol.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Align in his original post and the post that started this discussion...did you read that?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>"If aliens are meant to be melee only "</i> Never said this. I used an example of a melee weapon on the same class, merely to demonstrate a lack of reason other than nostalgia, being the driving factor for a call to change in design; to be reverted to a method that was tested in this current game (Not ns1) for roughly a year and found lacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Found lacking or OP'd...believe the complaint was the later.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You got your history backwards, I think.. As i can't remember a time between first lerk play and Sept 2011, that he "went back to the classic lerk form" and lost projectile spores?? Or maybe my memory is bad?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would say your memory is bad, original ns 1 lerk had spikes and spores as a projectile along with umbra in the bombed version. the lerk showed up originally with spikes and projectile spores in ns2....until it was changed to be bombed due to it being OP'd.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>"flying you increase your hitbox's thanks to the wingspan."</i> No, your wings take something negligible like 10% of potential damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It still increases the hit box's though, 10% of potential damage means or the weapons maximum damage (so linked to tech rates of marines) not linked to hit points of target. so 10% could still mean the lerk dies in 2-3 shots.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>"Make the lerk worth taking the risk of res on by offering a different attacking style to the other aliens,"</i> Change for the sake of change usually gets a bad rep around here, i'm surprised to hear it suggested. 0.0<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its not change for the sake of change at all, its change for the sake of improving gameplay, see my many references to addressing fade and onos explosions. Not to mention its actually reverting back to a previous configuration .
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>"Sure lerk gas sucks as a marine...but there are a lot of things that suck from the aliens perspoective; "</i> So you're saying you want to increase the amount of frustrating gameplay that sucks? Again i am surprised to hear this suggested.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ahahah your quoting a statement that some things suck from an alien perspective too...ever been spawning at a hive thats being camped/capped? Not exactly fun for the aliens there. Not to mention the turtling marines situation...which is part of the reason why Align made the post to begin with.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>"two-three sentry turrets makes it almost impossible to attack a base without atleast 2 fades"</i> Lerk spores plus gorge's BB should make light work of that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you play alien much? Have you ever had to take out a marine base thats been set up well with sentry's? Depending on where it is positioned the gorge may have 3 sentries firing at it before it gets in range for 1 bb. So your assuming the gorge can get in close enough to bile bomb, the lerk must take a chance to dump the gas...flying through the area that is being turtled...not always a successful flight. The lerk would need to do this 3-4 times or so...one lucky shottie or lmg and bye bye lerk.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>"Your claiming that lerk <strike>gas </strike> projectile spores is not a valid weapon...then why are you so adamant it not return? I know...that it did actually work,"</i> Fixed, and : the answer is the sentence you quoted me, and that i re quoted myself above, regarding combating an opponent. Because as you so adequately put it: "lerk gas(projectile spores) sucks as a marine"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So because its tough for the marines get rid of it? So can we remove mines, shotties and sentries?...it really sucks as an alien when they are used. Flame throwers where mega sucky for aliens...but we still see them floating around (with some tweaks). They are still devastating and really sucky for aliens to have to deal with a JP'ing flame thrower.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>"There is no similar push off for alien eggs. "</i> WAAAYY on a tangent there, but hey i'll bite: When marines get dozens of fake IPs that you cant tell are spawning, you'll have my vote to remove spawn pushback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was highlighting to show how things are very much slanted towards the marines and this change was made to stop/minimise the impact of IP camping by aliens (used to be a very good tactic...sit on the IP and chomp marines as they spawn). The changes to lerk gas was largely due to marines getting flogged by lerk gas. Which recharged too quickly and didn't cost enough energy per shot. But this did not necessitate the change of its delivery method. Why not make exo have a built in gas mask (or make it something researchable and cheap on pres), so its not a permanent game changer. Making the requirement to bomb it in has been shown to allow marines to turtle a base easier and increase the risk for aliens to try to clear it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b><u>Bottom line again:</u></b> You are thinking projectile lerk spores are the <b>only </b>solution to making the lerk viable and assist in ending turtling marines. Try thinking out of the box, or better yet... just wait and see. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am agreeing with the original poster and a lot of other posters in this thread, not to mention presenting an additional flow on effect to help address the fade/onos explosions. Sorry if you have missed this in my earlier posts but I am not simply saying this is the only way to make the lerk viable in combat...but that it helps in other areas of overall gameplay.
Never played NS1 in a competitive setting, so I'll speak from a pub standpoint. I played mostly gorge or lerk.
<!--quoteo(post=1936759:date=May 17 2012, 09:25 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 17 2012, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Did projectile spores help noticeably against marine turtling in NS1? Armouries didn't repair armour and aliens could get Focus, but welders were cheap...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To me, spores had pretty much the same effect whether used in corridors or against bases: to suppress and wither down the marine armor. Even though welders were cheap, that still meant that some marines would have to stand with them out and repair the armor, or risk getting one-shot killed with focus. It also served to remove the last few hp from a marine after another unit attacked. Compare to 2 bites+parasite against a0 marine or 3 bites.
<!--quoteo(post=1936759:date=May 17 2012, 09:25 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 17 2012, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Would projectile spores detract too much from the desired Lerk v2 behaviour of needing to get up close to fight, like the other aliens? Assume it'd be considerably weaker than sporetrail since it's safer to use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If all other abilities stay the same, yes. However, it was never used to actually fight marines in NS1, rather suppress them. The bite in later versions made you try to wither them down to then quickly fly in and try to focus away one marine.
<!--quoteo(post=1936759:date=May 17 2012, 09:25 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 17 2012, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. <i>Should</i> the Lerk need to get up close to fight?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd rephrase it to <i>"should the Lerk need to fly to fight"</i>, and I would say yes. But I think neither bite nor spikes does that in a optimal way. The good thing with bite was that you could make greater evasive manoeuvres before you bit out a chunk of health, while the good thing with spikes is that you can fly while still dealing damage. We tried to address this in the SpikeDamage mod, but it didn't quite work as the lerk was too fragile for what you needed to do (fly straight at marines)
<!--quoteo(post=1936759:date=May 17 2012, 09:25 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 17 2012, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4. Were projectile spores too easy (/boring) to use? There have been ideas for new takes, like adding the Lerk's momentum to the emitted sporetrail, which could let you cover much of the marine base by doing a high-speed U-turn at the entrance, while still giving the marines <i>some</i> chance to react.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think adding momentum to the sporetrail doesn't make much realistic sense. That is, unless the gas is ejected at really high velocity, it would hardly float across a room. To limit "projectile sniping" I would instead make it a bile-bomb-ish projectile that gets momentum from you, think about how bile worked in NS1 or how grenades work in CS. That way you can shoot from a medium distance if you cover in a vent, but for long distance you need to fly and shoot at the right spot as you do the u-turn.
In NS1 the Lerk had area denial and suppression through spores, support through primal scream and umbra, and finishing of marines with bite. Flying was mostly use to get to and from fights, rather then as a mechanic to fight.
Now, the Lerk could be argued to have area denial and suppression too, but in reality it doesn't serve that role. You can't reliable deny or suppress if you have to expose yourself each time you do it. The only support come from spores blocking the view of marines and sentry guns. You do actually fly when you fight marines with spikes, but the fact is that the continuous aspect of spiking marines doesn't fit well with such a fragile alien: to do decent damage you need to stay close to the marine for longer times, to survive you need to stay close to the marine for only short times.
Reading the lua files for the Poison dart, it seems to me like it give a DoT effect that ignores armor (that's what I'd assume biological damage does atleast...) and also zoom your view, for some reason. In the current game, I don't quite see the use of this, but I imagine it's a way to make the lerk not useless against exo, and I'm fine with that.
With not removing any current abilities, I think the lerk could be tuned to a really smooth experience however. By making spores projectile and with higher damage, but with more adrenaline cost, you could make it deny areas for a short time. Chaining 2 spores before getting empty on adrenaline sounds fine to me, it should be high enough so that you can't keep an area covered most of the time. Then tweak the damage and adrenaline of spikes to make them more like suppressing fire and your choice against structures. Lastly, make the Lerk do damage to marines it collides with based on the speed. Add a very brief blur effect, such as the rifle butt effect, but nothing else. Fairly high damage, but the type should be light, to make it not very useful against exo and structures. This should be your primary way of killing marines. Logically, the Lerk seem to have a heavily reinforced head, and it's a similar fashion to how falcons attack prey.
Yea, no offense hakenspit i swear, but i'm questioning at this point whether your first language is english as i can see there are some miscommunications / misunderstandings occurring still. :-/
<ul><li>Yes i read the OP, of course, and no where in there did it say that anyone "wanted to turtle their base".</li><li>Found lacking in design AND OP for the reason you quoted me for in bold.</li><li>Yes i know what NS1 lerk had, thats not this discussion or my point ever, the lerk showed up with projectile spores in NS2, and then it was changed a year later. You collaborating this means my memory is good, then, since that was what i said. (Theres some of that communication breakdown i was referring to.)</li><li>Even if the hitbox was the entirety of the lerk at 100% dmg, it would still be less of a profile than the two classes above it: Fade and Onos, not to mention its going to be faster than any class! </li><li>Explosions = Mass Tech.</li><li>Mass tech is going to be solved by addressing the viability of that strat. (all oni, for example should not be effective at all) there are a dozen factors that both highlight and encourage Mass tech, however.. life form viability being one, but a coordinated team will always be able to Mass life forms - so it will be addressed at it's source. Changing how the lerk plays so that it is never risking it's life to use it's abilities would definitely not be a good idea - as already tested.</li><li>Yes, i know that i quoted a statement that some things suck from alien perspective - but i guess the point of me doing that has been lost for you? It was to say , "Yes.. there are many frustrating and sucky things that exist currently.. <b>so why would you want to increase it? </b>Something that 'sucks' does not justify the creation of more of those situations??"</li><li>Lerk spores disable/confuse turrets so a gorge can BB. You wouldnt BB first then spore??</li><li>And whose to say that what is coming wont help the lerk in this situation further??</li><li>I lerk more than anything, btw, and i am the dedicated lerker for my clan.. not that this matters or impacts any of my arguments, just answering your question.</li><li>Tough is an understatement as it implies a chance of <u>contention</u> at the very least! Projectile spores did not do this. I reiterate: <b>'Not ever having a chance to visibly identify and combat your opponent'</b></li><li>^ <i>this is the case,</i> and it is not for reasons such as: "recharged too quickly and didn't cost enough energy per shot." as those things are insanely easy to adjust. (and they did many times)</li></ul>
It would be interesting to see what the design goals are for the lerk and, better still, a breakdown of what UWE wants the abilities to do. One of the problems with adding projectile spores at this stage is that the spike is already ranged damage (two ranged skills = elusive lerk). Though there were (exaggerated) weaknesses in the NS1 lerk, projectile spores worked ok because an effective lerk would <i>also</i> be flying in to bite. You could stay in a vent and never die but you would be foregoing a big chunk of utility. There needs to be some sort of reason to keep a lerk in the fray but a close-up vision blocker is one of the weakest ways of achieving this. It's either too useless to be worth the risk or it's effective enough to make marines practically useless themselves which would suck.
I rather liked the lerk because it was one of the few lifeforms that was played very differently depending on the personality of the player. There were aggressive lerks, vent lerks, in-and-out lerks, balanced lerks and so on. I can see why this isn't appealing to the defined-role aim but, personally, I liked the variety. When you talked about someone's fade, it was only ever to say whether it was good or bad; a lerk, however, could carve a niche in the community's respect with his unique play-style.
Projectile spores was nice and helped with the "already fragile lerk" to stay alive.
To be honest though, I would like Lerk's team-buff-roar-thingy to come into play, perhaps a damage buff (assisting with the drifter's fire-rate buff), Tier 2 maybe. Also, remove bilebomb for Lerks, give it to gorges, allow Lerks to pick up gorges.
I'm all for trying Projectile Spores + Bite for a patch or so.. one should test things during beta.
I'd interested to see how everything turns out if it was to change to armories giving no armor point, but welders do (like it was in NS1). It would make it more of a siege agaisnt the turtle, having people forced to repair each other the longer the siege goes on to not get downed too quickly. It also means there's a way to weaken a marine push if there are no welders on the squad, which is an interesting mechanic. Giving another reason to use welders is also good imo, more teamwork is always good in my book.
I hope we'll get to test this before the game goes live... Projectile Spores + Bite Armory gives no Armor (quite cheap) Welders repair Armor
Spore Projectile and bite were good and playtested ten year whit lerk and it work so why put this spike and bilebomb on lerk ? its useless .
NS1 had the better lerk you can do because he was possible to defend a zone from distance and finish low hp marines whit bite.
More over when focus and adre is up lerk is very powerfull, the lerk today just died in one shoot if you stay to close from rine , you cant spore them from distance force the lerk to rush marines instead of marine rush the lerk, and he cant bite he had only this ###### spike !!
SO IF YOU WANT ALL PPL LOVE LERK AND LERK BE USEFULL JUST REMAKE THEM LIKE NS1.
BITE and SPORE PROJECTILE instead of spike and spore bombing UMBRA INSTEAD OF BILEBOMB ( give bilebomb to gorge ) .
Make the lerk more speedy or just make adrenaline up quick :) .
LERK WILL NEVER BE GOOD AND PLAYED IF YOU DONT MAKE THIS CHANGE.
JUST REMAKE NS1 LERK ABILITY !!!!! PLAYTEST IT IF YOU WANT WE MAYBE CAN PLAYTEST IT ON HEIDIS ZINGENFARME SERVER
<i>If you don't feel like reading all the OP responses, just drop down the the closing comments at the end of this post, which will give you a good idea on my thoughts concerning all this spore business.</i>
<!--quoteo(post=1936759:date=May 17 2012, 02:25 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 17 2012, 02:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Did projectile spores help noticeably against marine turtling in NS1? Armouries didn't repair armour and aliens could get Focus, but welders were cheap...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->I don't think projectile spores worked directly against stalemates, but they did make the lerk a more viable, and less risky option for an initial pres purchase. As long as whoever lerked understood the basic mechanics of the life form, it wasn't hard to assume they could hold off an area for expansion for the beginning of the game until marines got better tech.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Would projectile spores detract too much from the desired Lerk v2 behaviour of needing to get up close to fight, like the other aliens? Assume it'd be considerably weaker than sporetrail since it's safer to use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Detract? No. It would provide lerks with more more options for combat behavior. Just because you could spore from a distance in NS1 does not mean it was the only way to fight. The hiding and holding of an area was a more defensive posture for lerks, but there were still plenty of opportunities for more aggressive behavior. Advancing on, and pushing marines back often did require lerks to make "bombing runs" through hallways and bases, much like they function now in NS2. Only in NS1 it wasn't a requirement.
As it stands now, there's a hard line between defense and offense when it comes to lerking. Bringing back projectile spores would effectively give the lerk a greater range between the two, because attacking with spores wouldn't require such a strong commitment.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. <i>Should</i> the Lerk need to get up close to fight?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->No. The beauty of lerks in NS1 is their ability to be a pest, because they can choose to fight from a distance. Their stopping power isn't as strong in this regard, but they aren't meant to be muscle anyway. They function more as a deterrent, by taking the heat off their team. Spore in NS2 does not feel like it works the same way. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4. Were projectile spores too easy (/boring) to use? There have been ideas for new takes, like adding the Lerk's momentum to the emitted sporetrail, which could let you cover much of the marine base by doing a high-speed U-turn at the entrance, while still giving the marines <i>some</i> chance to react.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Easy to use but hard to master. Inexperienced lerks die quickly in NS1.
Definitely not boring. I always felt as though I helped my team by lerking in NS1, and as long as I feel I'm making contributions, I have fun. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<b>A couple closing thoughts.</b>
With the NS1 lerk and projectile spore come a sliding scale of risk vs reward during battle. With spore the way it is now in NS2, you are at one end of the spectrum or the other - and far too often spore feels like it is a risk not worth taking. That should not be the case with a core game mechanic for a life form that is seen so early in the game.
That being said, I'm not opposed to the current system. I've played it and had fun, but I can't ignore the fact that crop dusting a couple marines just feels like I'm putting myself on the chopping block most of the time. As the weakest life form on the alien team you are required to expose yourself more than anyone else, for the sake of using one of your basic attacks which doesn't feel all that effective in the first place.
Suffice it to say, the lerk can't crowd control like he used to.
<b>Possible fixes?</b>
-Give projectile spore another shot. We are, after all, in beta.
-Perhaps spore and umbra could be combined, which would afford the lerk some measure of protection when making an escape. Right now the common strategy to combat lerks is to wait for them to exit the room and just spray the doorway(you might not know where the lerk is now, but you know where he's going to be!). If lerks dropped umbra at the same time(or spore had a shielding effect, it doesn't need to be called umbra obviously), it would force marines to recognize an attack early and deal with it quickly, which is what they should be doing anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1938022:date=May 22 2012, 10:13 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 22 2012, 10:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938022"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yea, no offense hakenspit i swear, but i'm questioning at this point whether your first language is english as i can see there are some miscommunications / misunderstandings occurring still. :-/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I will let that one go through to the keeper.
<b> [*]Yes i read the OP, of course, and no where in there did it say that anyone "wanted to turtle their base". </b> Yeah in teh bit about "Did projectile spores help noticeably against marine turtling in NS1?" Coupled with my own experience playing in servers and seeing it being an issue that is only really beaten at the moment by Onos. So I guess the marines are turtling because the aliens are forcing them too right?
Its a game play tactic that is very common, marines will often just sit there and build an arc army that they can then just push through with a couple of marines in support, just give them JP's and GL/Flamers and your set. Just a matter of sitting and waiting for the res/research. Used to happen in NS1 so its not like its something new here, its been happening long enough that I dont think it matters is people want to...but if people do.
<b> [*]Found lacking in design AND OP for the reason you Bd me for in bold. </b> You have claimed that it made teh game unfun for you, I know a lot of people who like to play aliens feel same way about GL, Flamers etc.
I found it fun and rewarding, made me not feel like I was wasting 30 res when I died 5 min later trying to help attack a partially turtled base.
The marine tech tree is not complete and the alien tech tree was not complete when the spores where changed to be bombed.
Your belief that it was found lacking means you must have had a different take on what it should do compared to most of the other people who have posted.
The current bombed approach is also severly lacking in design and Under Powered due to the nececity of getting within spitting distance.
<b> [*]Yes i know what NS1 lerk had, thats not this discussion or my point ever, the lerk showed up with projectile spores in NS2, and then it was changed a year later. You collaborating this means my memory is good, then, since that was what i said. (Theres some of that communication breakdown i was referring to.) </b> I was highlighting how the lerk changed over the many versions of ns1...the lerk has been one of the most tweaked aliens (only other realy noticable change was moving bile rockets from the early fade...)
<b> [*]Even if the hitbox was the entirety of the lerk at 100% dmg, it would still be less of a profile than the two classes above it: Fade and Onos, not to mention its going to be faster than any class! </b> But still a heck of a lot bigger than the skulk which doesn't cost 30 Pres. To be able to compete with fade or onos as a good option it has to be more than simply smaller in hit box size. Sure in a nice open space the lerk is quick, but get within 5 metres of some sentries or try to fly down a hallway with a shotgunning marine and the lerks dead most times.
<b> [*]Explosions = Mass Tech. [*]Mass tech is going to be solved by addressing the viability of that strat. (all oni, for example should not be effective at all) there are a dozen factors that both highlight and encourage Mass tech, however.. life form viability being one, but a coordinated team will always be able to Mass life forms - so it will be addressed at it's source. Changing how the lerk plays so that it is never risking it's life to use it's abilities would definitely not be a good idea - as already tested. </b> Umm..an all Oni team should not be effective? I would have thought a team of the top alien species should be effective. If we are going for a balanced game that is. Line of site still leave the lerk exposed, a fast jet packing marine can easily catch the lerk and cover the 50-100 metre hallway in a matter of seconds.
<b> [*]Yes, i know that i Bd a statement that some things suck from alien perspective - but i guess the point of me doing that has been lost for you? It was to say , "Yes.. there are many frustrating and sucky things that exist currently.. [b]so why would you want to increase it? </b>Something that 'sucks' does not justify the creation of more of those situations??" [/B] Suckiness is relative to the person, I find arc trains sucky as I do flame throwers, but they play a part in the game and allow the marines to scale up their attacks. Same way the projectile spores did for aliens.
<b> [*]Lerk spores disable/confuse turrets so a gorge can BB. You wouldnt BB first then spore?? </b> Bile bombs going back to gorge I though...so your saying as lerk I have to first try to fly past the active sentries and marines to drop a spore bomb so a gorge can try to get close enough to dump some bile bombs? So I need to do that how many times before he can take out 1 sentry? ######...might as well just stay skulk...not wasting 30 res when I die in very little time. Could help the gorge more too and protect him from any marines that might want to chase him and kill him...not much I can do to help as a lerk that does not risk my life (which is 3 x more res) in a 50-50% situation.
<b> [*]And whose to say that what is coming wont help the lerk in this situation further?? </b>That was not what was asked of us by the OP, he posed some questions which people have put forward thier opinion, its different to yours but equally as valid.
<b> [*]I lerk more than anything, btw, and i am the dedicated lerker for my clan.. not that this matters or impacts any of my arguments, just answering your question. </b> Agreed, might just mean no one else in your clan likes to lerk ;)
<b> [*]Tough is an understatement as it implies a chance of <u>contention</u> at the very least! Projectile spores did not do this. I reiterate: [b]'Not ever having a chance to visibly identify and combat your opponent'</b> [/B] How can I identify where a marine is on my screen when he is jping all over the hive, spamming nades or a flamer? Obs still provide some local motion tracking for the marines incase that pesky lerk is hiding (I know...being melee and ambush based they should not try to hide...makes it too hard the the marines). Now that marines have JP's they can pose the same issue to the aliens that a lerk with gas poses to the marines. Marines in a base with JP's and GL/shottie/flamer are as much a pest as the lerk gas was. Killing a lerk means 30 P-Res GONE...big risk to take early in game. Killing a marine means his mates can pick up his guns and so recover atleast part of the spent res that the aliens lose.
I dont always see the marine that kills me...hence why he kills me, this is also the case as marine, as the alien ambush style is reliant on me not seeing them and them being able to do damage to me. For aliens to be succesful ambushers you will at time not know where they where when you died. If my projectile spores force you to come find me and walk into an ambush...then I dont see how this is an issue. If you want to leave gas the way it is...it really needs to be a skulk attribute/upgrade then to be of any use. A skulk has as much chance of running in and out of a marine base as a lerk does...and it doesn't cost 30 res.
In NS1 the lerk had umbra...why because up close the lerk was screwed and needed something to act as a shield and reduce the damage it would take. NS2 the lerk has the same issue...it cant fight any better than a skulk, here in lies the problem...skulk = free lerk = 30 Pres, I know most clan players would rather fade or onos and spend 5 more minutes skulking before wasting 30 P-res on a lerk. This is shown by the fact we have so many players all going onos/fade at the same time. If you bring back projectile based spores...you make the lerk a valid tactic to pester the marines and reduce the number of fades/onos that come all at once. Currently if you look at peoples res..you will have 4-5 people all with about the same res in a 6v6 game. Aside from going gorge there is nothing to sink res into so the only difference is whether they prefer fade or onos. Few people waste 30 Pres on a lerk as its under powered and too flimsy, with a fade being only 20 more res it makes more sense to save and go fade.
Lerk sucks in close quarters combat...always has always will. Unless you give him a lot more HP, make spores projectiles or bring back umbra with bite he will never make a consistent appearance or impact on the battlefield. Make the lerk viable res investment and you solve a large part of the alien tech explosion issue.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1938181:date=May 22 2012, 08:07 AM:name=Pistachio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pistachio @ May 22 2012, 08:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Perhaps spore and umbra could be combined, which would afford the lerk some measure of protection when making an escape. Right now the common strategy to combat lerks is to wait for them to exit the room and just spray the doorway(you might not know where the lerk is now, but you know where he's going to be!). If lerks dropped umbra at the same time(or spore had a shielding effect, it doesn't need to be called umbra obviously), it would force marines to recognize an attack early and deal with it quickly, which is what they should be doing anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1938349:date=May 23 2012, 04:53 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 23 2012, 04:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938349"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->weapon 3: BFG10K<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Also random power words in maps so lerks can learn Dragon Shouts.
I want to see a viking from Sovngarde attacking marines.
Not FlayraJoin Date: 2012-05-18Member: 152282Members
<!--quoteo(post=1938354:date=May 22 2012, 09:27 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ May 22 2012, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also random power words in maps so lerks can learn Dragon Shouts.
I want to see a viking from Sovngarde attacking marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, but what happens when the Marines <i>kill</i> the lerks? I mean, if one of them did and then tried to use the Spores shout... well. He wouldn't be all that popular. Just sayin'.
<!--quoteo(post=1938347:date=May 23 2012, 03:46 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ May 23 2012, 03:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938347"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Post your dream lerk!
Mine:
<Weapon 1> MBUTTON 1=Spikes MBUTTON 2=Lerklift
<Weapon2> MBUTTON 1=Spores MBUTTON 2=Umbra
Puff a little cloud of umbra, roll in it, charge marine base umbraed and gas away! What fun!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Shouldn't MBUTTON 2 always be the same ability? Like Leap, Blink...
I guess I'd like <ul>Alt. attack: umbratrail. Hive abilities:</li><li>0: shotgun spikes (compromise between bite and spikes)</li><li>1: projectile spores</li><li>2: (enables umbratrail)</li><li>3: uhhh... something new. (Jammer spike, disables buildings/HUD for a few seconds?)</li></ul> That'd also fit with 33% old, 33% new, 33% updated. ...Still, this is just fantasizing about "cool stuff" rather than well thought-out for balance.
<ul><li><b>Tier 0, Passive ability:</b> <i>Thick Skull</i> (Collide with marines to deal speed-based damage and obscure marine sight briefly. Rifle butt vision effect, light damage)</li><li><b>Tier 0, primary fire:</b> <i>Vampiric Bite</i> (Cause initial normal damage and make the target bleed for some biological damage over a few seconds. Stacking bleed)</li><li><b>Tier 1, primary fire:</b> <i>Projectile Spores</i> (Also damage structures in a corrode-like manner. Clouds stacking but heavy cost. Transparent like umbra)</li><li><b>Tier 2, secondary fire:</b> <i>Umbra Trail</i> (envelop lerk and leaves a trail, distract sentry)</li><li><b>Tier 3, primary fire:</b><i> Poison Dart</i> (deals low initial damage and biological damage over some seconds. Biological damage)</li></ul><i>
Vampiric bite idea taken from Live Q&A #3 and Poison Dart from my understanding of the implementation in the Balance.Lua file.</i>
I think this gives every ability a distinctive and separate role. With no hives, you can fly into marines and bite them a few times to kill them, or do a collide+bite to wear them down. Your primary way to take down structures would be the initial damage from your bite. With one hive you can use your spores to assist more safely in taking down structures more and also temporary block block areas. Should not be able to do more then 2-3 clouds back-to-back before you need to wait for energy. With tier 2 you will be able to more safely get into the fray and assist directly in the attack by your umbra trail. Allows you to better last as upgrades start to me more effective from the marine side. With final tier you will be able to stand a chance dealing with exo suits, forcing medpacks to prevent them from dying if left alone. Also allows you to "instantly" kill a marine by Poison Dart+Vampiric Bite+Collide of they have no armor and doesn't get a medpack quickly after).
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
"Dream Lerk":
<b>0: Burst-fire spikes with wide cone of fire</b> (similar effect as shotgun spikes, but slightly more forgiving for new players). <b>1: Single-fire, non-hitscan, spike, that explodes into a spore cloud on impact.</b> Also does a moderate amount DOT if it directly hits a player, depending on range (closer = more damage). <b>2: Primal scream</b> (zero, or very small, energy cost). <b>3: Something new.</b>
Make umbra the Gorge third tier ability, as somebody suggested in a different thread.
We're getting pretty off-track here, but isn't primal scream a really boring ability? You basically want to have it always on, and you could even in NS1 since it was cheap, lasted long, and I think increased your energy regeneration.
Comments
And , it did happen, on tram. I used to love projectile sporing as long as i was lerking. I hated it as a marine, frustrating beyond belief.
<b>It has been tried before, and it was terrible.</b>
Once again, i am not saying it can never work, sigh... i am saying its a terrible mechanic that has been tried, and failed horribly, there are better solutions!
no, it's 25 energy any time a lerk is harassing something and you know your marines could kill it if they had a scan to help
any other time, and you have to shrug off the damage while working toward the situation where you can kill the lerk
<!--quoteo(post=1937781:date=May 20 2012, 06:36 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 20 2012, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>It has been tried before, and it was terrible.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any more information available?
<a href="https://twitter.com/#!/NS2/statuses/106879235230146560" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/#!/NS2/statuses/106879235230146560</a>
Edit: roughly a year of "trying it"
As you can see in this video <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Yy5S9pa_nVk#t=354s" target="_blank">here</a>, if you examine the smoke as the plane flies through, it is thrusted down and spread out sideways. What about having that kind of effect when the lerk flies spreading his spores?
As explained <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Yy5S9pa_nVk#t=317s" target="_blank">here</a>, "High pressure air from underneath the wing is leaking around the wing tip and pushing down on the top surface."
Mind you, I don't propose that the spores have massive vortices as demonstrated in the videos above, but I do think that would be a realistic approach to getting the spores to spread out sideways. There could possibly even be a factor of lerk airspeed relative to how far the spores spread.
<a href="https://twitter.com/#!/NS2/statuses/106879235230146560" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/#!/NS2/statuses/106879235230146560</a>
Edit: roughly a year of "trying it"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh. I didn't play at that time because the game wasn't playable. I guess that's a fair time to evaluate all the mechanics, right?
Weird. I was playing it then. I do not think that word means what you think that word means.
As you can see in this video <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Yy5S9pa_nVk#t=354s" target="_blank">here</a>, if you examine the smoke as the plane flies through, it is thrusted down and spread out sideways. What about having that kind of effect when the lerk flies spreading his spores?
As explained <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Yy5S9pa_nVk#t=317s" target="_blank">here</a>, "High pressure air from underneath the wing is leaking around the wing tip and pushing down on the top surface."
Mind you, I don't propose that the spores have massive vortices as demonstrated in the videos above, but I do think that would be a realistic approach to getting the spores to spread out sideways. There could possibly even be a factor of lerk airspeed relative to how far the spores spread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ooh, great idea! I love the current implementation of the "crop-duster" spores that drop down to the ground, so this horizontal spread would make it even better!
Projectile spores aren't the only solution.
<b>In fact i wouldn't even call them a solution of any kind.</b> Not ever having a chance to visibly identify and combat your opponent was not a solution of any form. (see my earlier posts for more explanation) Address the root of the problem and you wouldn't even suggest such a flawed mechanic; Lerk survivability/viability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Final comment from me as I have made my points already...
NS1 initially had lerk gas as a projectile coupled with spores...this is actually what UW returned to initially in ns2.
Later they lost spores then spikes (maybe other way round..was a few years ago) and got bite under the claim that "aliens are all melee".
This saw the number of lerks drop off massively and more fades/onos appear in their place (though no comm meant pres was spent on hives etc).
This melee only approach was abandoned in ns2 as they conceded that lerk was not designed for melee and as such went back to the classic lerk form.
The fact it was taken out so early in the build is sad and shows a response to complaints from people who wanted to turle their base and not spend money on scans (or look at their minimap). This was also before we had a full suite of alien lifeforms to chose from (ie only lerk or fade..no onos).
If aliens are meant to be melee only then why do we have gorge spit or lerk spikes?
Why are marines able to compete 1v1 against aliens who should have the clear melee advantage?
Why did they originally have spike and spores as projectile?
SImply because they hated what had become of the lerk in NS1 once they stripped away all its ranged attacks and left it with this "melee only" design, truth is a flying melee based alien is a joke and does not stand a chance in combat for any length of time.
30 Res they cost..and unlike shotties or GL...you cant pick up your mates dead lerk and use it like you can with marine weapons.
The only way aliens can win is via spending their Pres...so they have to be careful on what they spend on.
A lerk is no better than a skulk but where a skulk is free...lerk costs 30 Pres.
It makes more sense to stay skulk as the lerk is not designed for up close and personal attacking, by flying you increase your hitbox's thanks to the wingspan.
Everyone complains about the sudden appearnce of 3 fades or onos, well with the lerk being so underpowered considering the res outlay this is never going to change.
Make the lerk worth taking the risk of res on by offering a different attacking style to the other aliens, this would then lead to people lerking instead of just saving for fade or onos (which is what 95% of people appear to do). This would mean you wont have 3 fades appearing all at once, you will have had at least 1 lerk early in the game reducing the numbers of fades/onos that appear later in one hit.
Sure lerk gas sucks as a marine...but there are a lot of things that suck from the aliens perspoective;
two-three sentry turrets makes it almost impossible to attack a base without atleast 2 fades preferably with an onos.
Mines are OP'd and often spammed around a base (have seen over 35 mines in some bases).
GL's cut through infestation/whips/hydras like a hot knife through butter, having taken a hell of a lot longer to build than take down (unlike marines structures which take as long or longer to take down as build).
Your claiming that lerk gas is not a valid weapon...then why are you so adamant it not return? If its so lame and not a solution what is it you fear?
I know...that it did actually work, forced the marines not to sit in base and simply repair 3 but actually chase down an attacking lerk and risk getting killed.
For something that was such a poor game mechanic...it seemed to actually work pretty damn well. Sorry but I dont think the aliens are there simply for target practice.
They should have a chance of winning...and not having to wait until the onos is on the battlefield. Lerks should be able to change games.
MT, jp's, gl and shotties are all great at fiding and killing that gassing lerk.
But do require the marine to move and find the alien if lerks have a projectile gas...not simply wait in base for the alien to attack.
The fact that the push off feature for phase gates and IP's was introduced shows how vocal the marine side is.
There is no similar push off for alien eggs.
Aliens are melee so can only attack an IP up close, getting pushed back to allow a marine to spawn and get his bearing is biased.
If the aliens have made it into the base and started to chomp an IP..they have taken out a few marines to do this and dont deserve to be handicapped.
Aliens dont get a similar grace if marines are in their base killing eggs/hive. You often spawn and die as aliens
The only decent ranged weapon that aleins had was nerfed and the fragile lerk forced into close quarters combat.
/sarcasm.
We might as well add in res for kills too....punish those aliens for getting killed and reward our leet shooting..currently they can just attack and attack with no penalty...there should be some reward for my good shooting skills.
/end sarcasm
<i>gg</i>
Its like people aren't actually reading what i write, even after i clarify a second time. :(
But don't worry, Internetexplorer,*Cracks knuckles*<i> I got this one.</i>
<i>"shows a response to complaints from people who wanted to turle their base"</i>
More like, <b>'Not ever having a chance to visibly identify and combat your opponent'</b>.. Who actually called for mechanics with an end goal in mind of turtling?? Love to see this post, lol.
<i>"If aliens are meant to be melee only "</i>
Never said this. I used an example of a melee weapon on the same class, merely to demonstrate a lack of reason other than nostalgia, being the driving factor for a call to change in design; to be reverted to a method that was tested in this current game (Not ns1) for roughly a year and found lacking.
You got your history backwards, I think..
As i can't remember a time between first lerk play and Sept 2011, that he "went back to the classic lerk form" and lost projectile spores?? Or maybe my memory is bad?
<i>"flying you increase your hitbox's thanks to the wingspan."</i>
No, your wings take something negligible like 10% of potential damage.
<i>"Make the lerk worth taking the risk of res on by offering a different attacking style to the other aliens,"</i>
Change for the sake of change usually gets a bad rep around here, i'm surprised to hear it suggested. 0.0
<i>"Sure lerk gas sucks as a marine...but there are a lot of things that suck from the aliens perspoective; "</i>
So you're saying you want to increase the amount of frustrating gameplay that sucks? Again i am surprised to hear this suggested.
<i>"two-three sentry turrets makes it almost impossible to attack a base without atleast 2 fades"</i>
Lerk spores plus gorge's BB should make light work of that.
<i>"Your claiming that lerk <strike>gas </strike> projectile spores is not a valid weapon...then why are you so adamant it not return? I know...that it did actually work,"</i>
Fixed, and : the answer is the sentence you quoted me, and that i re quoted myself above, regarding combating an opponent.
Because as you so adequately put it: "lerk gas(projectile spores) sucks as a marine"
<i>"There is no similar push off for alien eggs. "</i>
WAAAYY on a tangent there, but hey i'll bite: When marines get dozens of fake IPs that you cant tell are spawning, you'll have my vote to remove spawn pushback.
<b><u>Bottom line again:</u></b> You are thinking projectile lerk spores are the <b>only </b>solution to making the lerk viable and assist in ending turtling marines. Try thinking out of the box, or better yet... just wait and see. :)
But don't worry, Internetexplorer,*Cracks knuckles*<i> I got this one.</i>
<i>"shows a response to complaints from people who wanted to turle their base"</i>
More like, <b>'Not ever having a chance to visibly identify and combat your opponent'</b>.. Who actually called for mechanics with an end goal in mind of turtling?? Love to see this post, lol.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Align in his original post and the post that started this discussion...did you read that?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>"If aliens are meant to be melee only "</i>
Never said this. I used an example of a melee weapon on the same class, merely to demonstrate a lack of reason other than nostalgia, being the driving factor for a call to change in design; to be reverted to a method that was tested in this current game (Not ns1) for roughly a year and found lacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Found lacking or OP'd...believe the complaint was the later.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You got your history backwards, I think..
As i can't remember a time between first lerk play and Sept 2011, that he "went back to the classic lerk form" and lost projectile spores?? Or maybe my memory is bad?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would say your memory is bad, original ns 1 lerk had spikes and spores as a projectile along with umbra in the bombed version.
the lerk showed up originally with spikes and projectile spores in ns2....until it was changed to be bombed due to it being OP'd.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>"flying you increase your hitbox's thanks to the wingspan."</i>
No, your wings take something negligible like 10% of potential damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It still increases the hit box's though, 10% of potential damage means or the weapons maximum damage (so linked to tech rates of marines) not linked to hit points of target. so 10% could still mean the lerk dies in 2-3 shots.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>"Make the lerk worth taking the risk of res on by offering a different attacking style to the other aliens,"</i>
Change for the sake of change usually gets a bad rep around here, i'm surprised to hear it suggested. 0.0<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its not change for the sake of change at all, its change for the sake of improving gameplay, see my many references to addressing fade and onos explosions.
Not to mention its actually reverting back to a previous configuration .
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>"Sure lerk gas sucks as a marine...but there are a lot of things that suck from the aliens perspoective; "</i>
So you're saying you want to increase the amount of frustrating gameplay that sucks? Again i am surprised to hear this suggested.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahahah your quoting a statement that some things suck from an alien perspective too...ever been spawning at a hive thats being camped/capped? Not exactly fun for the aliens there.
Not to mention the turtling marines situation...which is part of the reason why Align made the post to begin with.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>"two-three sentry turrets makes it almost impossible to attack a base without atleast 2 fades"</i>
Lerk spores plus gorge's BB should make light work of that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you play alien much? Have you ever had to take out a marine base thats been set up well with sentry's? Depending on where it is positioned the gorge may have 3 sentries firing at it before it gets in range for 1 bb.
So your assuming the gorge can get in close enough to bile bomb, the lerk must take a chance to dump the gas...flying through the area that is being turtled...not always a successful flight. The lerk would need to do this 3-4 times or so...one lucky shottie or lmg and bye bye lerk.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>"Your claiming that lerk <strike>gas </strike> projectile spores is not a valid weapon...then why are you so adamant it not return? I know...that it did actually work,"</i>
Fixed, and : the answer is the sentence you quoted me, and that i re quoted myself above, regarding combating an opponent.
Because as you so adequately put it: "lerk gas(projectile spores) sucks as a marine"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So because its tough for the marines get rid of it?
So can we remove mines, shotties and sentries?...it really sucks as an alien when they are used.
Flame throwers where mega sucky for aliens...but we still see them floating around (with some tweaks). They are still devastating and really sucky for aliens to have to deal with a JP'ing flame thrower.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>"There is no similar push off for alien eggs. "</i>
WAAAYY on a tangent there, but hey i'll bite: When marines get dozens of fake IPs that you cant tell are spawning, you'll have my vote to remove spawn pushback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was highlighting to show how things are very much slanted towards the marines and this change was made to stop/minimise the impact of IP camping by aliens (used to be a very good tactic...sit on the IP and chomp marines as they spawn).
The changes to lerk gas was largely due to marines getting flogged by lerk gas. Which recharged too quickly and didn't cost enough energy per shot. But this did not necessitate the change of its delivery method.
Why not make exo have a built in gas mask (or make it something researchable and cheap on pres), so its not a permanent game changer.
Making the requirement to bomb it in has been shown to allow marines to turtle a base easier and increase the risk for aliens to try to clear it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b><u>Bottom line again:</u></b> You are thinking projectile lerk spores are the <b>only </b>solution to making the lerk viable and assist in ending turtling marines. Try thinking out of the box, or better yet... just wait and see. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am agreeing with the original poster and a lot of other posters in this thread, not to mention presenting an additional flow on effect to help address the fade/onos explosions. Sorry if you have missed this in my earlier posts but I am not simply saying this is the only way to make the lerk viable in combat...but that it helps in other areas of overall gameplay.
anyway thats more than my 2cents....
<!--quoteo(post=1936759:date=May 17 2012, 09:25 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 17 2012, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Did projectile spores help noticeably against marine turtling in NS1?
Armouries didn't repair armour and aliens could get Focus, but welders were cheap...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To me, spores had pretty much the same effect whether used in corridors or against bases: to suppress and wither down the marine armor. Even though welders were cheap, that still meant that some marines would have to stand with them out and repair the armor, or risk getting one-shot killed with focus. It also served to remove the last few hp from a marine after another unit attacked. Compare to 2 bites+parasite against a0 marine or 3 bites.
<!--quoteo(post=1936759:date=May 17 2012, 09:25 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 17 2012, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Would projectile spores detract too much from the desired Lerk v2 behaviour of needing to get up close to fight, like the other aliens?
Assume it'd be considerably weaker than sporetrail since it's safer to use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If all other abilities stay the same, yes. However, it was never used to actually fight marines in NS1, rather suppress them. The bite in later versions made you try to wither them down to then quickly fly in and try to focus away one marine.
<!--quoteo(post=1936759:date=May 17 2012, 09:25 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 17 2012, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. <i>Should</i> the Lerk need to get up close to fight?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd rephrase it to <i>"should the Lerk need to fly to fight"</i>, and I would say yes. But I think neither bite nor spikes does that in a optimal way. The good thing with bite was that you could make greater evasive manoeuvres before you bit out a chunk of health, while the good thing with spikes is that you can fly while still dealing damage. We tried to address this in the SpikeDamage mod, but it didn't quite work as the lerk was too fragile for what you needed to do (fly straight at marines)
<!--quoteo(post=1936759:date=May 17 2012, 09:25 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 17 2012, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4. Were projectile spores too easy (/boring) to use?
There have been ideas for new takes, like adding the Lerk's momentum to the emitted sporetrail, which could let you cover much of the marine base by doing a high-speed U-turn at the entrance, while still giving the marines <i>some</i> chance to react.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think adding momentum to the sporetrail doesn't make much realistic sense. That is, unless the gas is ejected at really high velocity, it would hardly float across a room. To limit "projectile sniping" I would instead make it a bile-bomb-ish projectile that gets momentum from you, think about how bile worked in NS1 or how grenades work in CS. That way you can shoot from a medium distance if you cover in a vent, but for long distance you need to fly and shoot at the right spot as you do the u-turn.
In NS1 the Lerk had area denial and suppression through spores, support through primal scream and umbra, and finishing of marines with bite. Flying was mostly use to get to and from fights, rather then as a mechanic to fight.
Now, the Lerk could be argued to have area denial and suppression too, but in reality it doesn't serve that role. You can't reliable deny or suppress if you have to expose yourself each time you do it. The only support come from spores blocking the view of marines and sentry guns. You do actually fly when you fight marines with spikes, but the fact is that the continuous aspect of spiking marines doesn't fit well with such a fragile alien: to do decent damage you need to stay close to the marine for longer times, to survive you need to stay close to the marine for only short times.
Reading the lua files for the Poison dart, it seems to me like it give a DoT effect that ignores armor (that's what I'd assume biological damage does atleast...) and also zoom your view, for some reason. In the current game, I don't quite see the use of this, but I imagine it's a way to make the lerk not useless against exo, and I'm fine with that.
With not removing any current abilities, I think the lerk could be tuned to a really smooth experience however. By making spores projectile and with higher damage, but with more adrenaline cost, you could make it deny areas for a short time. Chaining 2 spores before getting empty on adrenaline sounds fine to me, it should be high enough so that you can't keep an area covered most of the time. Then tweak the damage and adrenaline of spikes to make them more like suppressing fire and your choice against structures. Lastly, make the Lerk do damage to marines it collides with based on the speed. Add a very brief blur effect, such as the rifle butt effect, but nothing else. Fairly high damage, but the type should be light, to make it not very useful against exo and structures. This should be your primary way of killing marines. Logically, the Lerk seem to have a heavily reinforced head, and it's a similar fashion to how falcons attack prey.
Yea, no offense hakenspit i swear, but i'm questioning at this point whether your first language is english as i can see there are some miscommunications / misunderstandings occurring still. :-/
<ul><li>Yes i read the OP, of course, and no where in there did it say that anyone "wanted to turtle their base".</li><li>Found lacking in design AND OP for the reason you quoted me for in bold.</li><li>Yes i know what NS1 lerk had, thats not this discussion or my point ever, the lerk showed up with projectile spores in NS2, and then it was changed a year later. You collaborating this means my memory is good, then, since that was what i said. (Theres some of that communication breakdown i was referring to.)</li><li>Even if the hitbox was the entirety of the lerk at 100% dmg, it would still be less of a profile than the two classes above it: Fade and Onos, not to mention its going to be faster than any class! </li><li>Explosions = Mass Tech.</li><li>Mass tech is going to be solved by addressing the viability of that strat. (all oni, for example should not be effective at all) there are a dozen factors that both highlight and encourage Mass tech, however.. life form viability being one, but a coordinated team will always be able to Mass life forms - so it will be addressed at it's source. Changing how the lerk plays so that it is never risking it's life to use it's abilities would definitely not be a good idea - as already tested.</li><li>Yes, i know that i quoted a statement that some things suck from alien perspective - but i guess the point of me doing that has been lost for you? It was to say , "Yes.. there are many frustrating and sucky things that exist currently.. <b>so why would you want to increase it? </b>Something that 'sucks' does not justify the creation of more of those situations??"</li><li>Lerk spores disable/confuse turrets so a gorge can BB. You wouldnt BB first then spore??</li><li>And whose to say that what is coming wont help the lerk in this situation further??</li><li>I lerk more than anything, btw, and i am the dedicated lerker for my clan.. not that this matters or impacts any of my arguments, just answering your question.</li><li>Tough is an understatement as it implies a chance of <u>contention</u> at the very least! Projectile spores did not do this. I reiterate: <b>'Not ever having a chance to visibly identify and combat your opponent'</b></li><li>^ <i>this is the case,</i> and it is not for reasons such as: "recharged too quickly and didn't cost enough energy per shot." as those things are insanely easy to adjust. (and they did many times)</li></ul>
I rather liked the lerk because it was one of the few lifeforms that was played very differently depending on the personality of the player. There were aggressive lerks, vent lerks, in-and-out lerks, balanced lerks and so on. I can see why this isn't appealing to the defined-role aim but, personally, I liked the variety. When you talked about someone's fade, it was only ever to say whether it was good or bad; a lerk, however, could carve a niche in the community's respect with his unique play-style.
To be honest though, I would like Lerk's team-buff-roar-thingy to come into play, perhaps a damage buff (assisting with the drifter's fire-rate buff), Tier 2 maybe.
Also, remove bilebomb for Lerks, give it to gorges, allow Lerks to pick up gorges.
I'd interested to see how everything turns out if it was to change to armories giving no armor point, but welders do (like it was in NS1). It would make it more of a siege agaisnt the turtle, having people forced to repair each other the longer the siege goes on to not get downed too quickly. It also means there's a way to weaken a marine push if there are no welders on the squad, which is an interesting mechanic. Giving another reason to use welders is also good imo, more teamwork is always good in my book.
I hope we'll get to test this before the game goes live...
Projectile Spores + Bite
Armory gives no Armor
(quite cheap) Welders repair Armor
Spore Projectile and bite were good and playtested ten year whit lerk and it work so why put this spike and bilebomb on lerk ? its useless .
NS1 had the better lerk you can do because he was possible to defend a zone from distance and finish low hp marines whit bite.
More over when focus and adre is up lerk is very powerfull, the lerk today just died in one shoot if you stay to close from rine , you cant spore them from distance force the lerk to rush marines instead of marine rush the lerk, and he cant bite he had only this ###### spike !!
SO IF YOU WANT ALL PPL LOVE LERK AND LERK BE USEFULL JUST REMAKE THEM LIKE NS1.
BITE and SPORE PROJECTILE instead of spike and spore bombing
UMBRA INSTEAD OF BILEBOMB ( give bilebomb to gorge ) .
Make the lerk more speedy or just make adrenaline up quick :) .
LERK WILL NEVER BE GOOD AND PLAYED IF YOU DONT MAKE THIS CHANGE.
JUST REMAKE NS1 LERK ABILITY !!!!! PLAYTEST IT IF YOU WANT WE MAYBE CAN PLAYTEST IT ON HEIDIS ZINGENFARME SERVER
<!--quoteo(post=1936759:date=May 17 2012, 02:25 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 17 2012, 02:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Did projectile spores help noticeably against marine turtling in NS1?
Armouries didn't repair armour and aliens could get Focus, but welders were cheap...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->I don't think projectile spores worked directly against stalemates, but they did make the lerk a more viable, and less risky option for an initial pres purchase. As long as whoever lerked understood the basic mechanics of the life form, it wasn't hard to assume they could hold off an area for expansion for the beginning of the game until marines got better tech.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Would projectile spores detract too much from the desired Lerk v2 behaviour of needing to get up close to fight, like the other aliens?
Assume it'd be considerably weaker than sporetrail since it's safer to use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Detract? No. It would provide lerks with more more options for combat behavior. Just because you could spore from a distance in NS1 does not mean it was the only way to fight. The hiding and holding of an area was a more defensive posture for lerks, but there were still plenty of opportunities for more aggressive behavior. Advancing on, and pushing marines back often did require lerks to make "bombing runs" through hallways and bases, much like they function now in NS2. Only in NS1 it wasn't a requirement.
As it stands now, there's a hard line between defense and offense when it comes to lerking. Bringing back projectile spores would effectively give the lerk a greater range between the two, because attacking with spores wouldn't require such a strong commitment.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. <i>Should</i> the Lerk need to get up close to fight?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->No. The beauty of lerks in NS1 is their ability to be a pest, because they can choose to fight from a distance. Their stopping power isn't as strong in this regard, but they aren't meant to be muscle anyway. They function more as a deterrent, by taking the heat off their team. Spore in NS2 does not feel like it works the same way.
<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4. Were projectile spores too easy (/boring) to use?
There have been ideas for new takes, like adding the Lerk's momentum to the emitted sporetrail, which could let you cover much of the marine base by doing a high-speed U-turn at the entrance, while still giving the marines <i>some</i> chance to react.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Easy to use but hard to master. Inexperienced lerks die quickly in NS1.
Definitely not boring. I always felt as though I helped my team by lerking in NS1, and as long as I feel I'm making contributions, I have fun. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<b>A couple closing thoughts.</b>
With the NS1 lerk and projectile spore come a sliding scale of risk vs reward during battle. With spore the way it is now in NS2, you are at one end of the spectrum or the other - and far too often spore feels like it is a risk not worth taking. That should not be the case with a core game mechanic for a life form that is seen so early in the game.
That being said, I'm not opposed to the current system. I've played it and had fun, but I can't ignore the fact that crop dusting a couple marines just feels like I'm putting myself on the chopping block most of the time. As the weakest life form on the alien team you are required to expose yourself more than anyone else, for the sake of using one of your basic attacks which doesn't feel all that effective in the first place.
Suffice it to say, the lerk can't crowd control like he used to.
<b>Possible fixes?</b>
-Give projectile spore another shot. We are, after all, in beta.
-Perhaps spore and umbra could be combined, which would afford the lerk some measure of protection when making an escape.
Right now the common strategy to combat lerks is to wait for them to exit the room and just spray the doorway(you might not know where the lerk is now, but you know where he's going to be!). If lerks dropped umbra at the same time(or spore had a shielding effect, it doesn't need to be called umbra obviously), it would force marines to recognize an attack early and deal with it quickly, which is what they should be doing anyway.
I will let that one go through to the keeper.
<b>
[*]Yes i read the OP, of course, and no where in there did it say that anyone "wanted to turtle their base".
</b>
Yeah in teh bit about "Did projectile spores help noticeably against marine turtling in NS1?"
Coupled with my own experience playing in servers and seeing it being an issue that is only really beaten at the moment by Onos.
So I guess the marines are turtling because the aliens are forcing them too right?
Its a game play tactic that is very common, marines will often just sit there and build an arc army that they can then just push through with a couple of marines in support, just give them JP's and GL/Flamers and your set.
Just a matter of sitting and waiting for the res/research.
Used to happen in NS1 so its not like its something new here, its been happening long enough that I dont think it matters is people want to...but if people do.
<b>
[*]Found lacking in design AND OP for the reason you Bd me for in bold.
</b>
You have claimed that it made teh game unfun for you, I know a lot of people who like to play aliens feel same way about GL, Flamers etc.
I found it fun and rewarding, made me not feel like I was wasting 30 res when I died 5 min later trying to help attack a partially turtled base.
The marine tech tree is not complete and the alien tech tree was not complete when the spores where changed to be bombed.
Your belief that it was found lacking means you must have had a different take on what it should do compared to most of the other people who have posted.
The current bombed approach is also severly lacking in design and Under Powered due to the nececity of getting within spitting distance.
<b>
[*]Yes i know what NS1 lerk had, thats not this discussion or my point ever, the lerk showed up with projectile spores in NS2, and then it was changed a year later. You collaborating this means my memory is good, then, since that was what i said. (Theres some of that communication breakdown i was referring to.)
</b>
I was highlighting how the lerk changed over the many versions of ns1...the lerk has been one of the most tweaked aliens (only other realy noticable change was moving bile rockets from the early fade...)
<b>
[*]Even if the hitbox was the entirety of the lerk at 100% dmg, it would still be less of a profile than the two classes above it: Fade and Onos, not to mention its going to be faster than any class!
</b>
But still a heck of a lot bigger than the skulk which doesn't cost 30 Pres.
To be able to compete with fade or onos as a good option it has to be more than simply smaller in hit box size.
Sure in a nice open space the lerk is quick, but get within 5 metres of some sentries or try to fly down a hallway with a shotgunning marine and the lerks dead most times.
<b>
[*]Explosions = Mass Tech.
[*]Mass tech is going to be solved by addressing the viability of that strat. (all oni, for example should not be effective at all) there are a dozen factors that both highlight and encourage Mass tech, however.. life form viability being one, but a coordinated team will always be able to Mass life forms - so it will be addressed at it's source. Changing how the lerk plays so that it is never risking it's life to use it's abilities would definitely not be a good idea - as already tested.
</b>
Umm..an all Oni team should not be effective? I would have thought a team of the top alien species should be effective. If we are going for a balanced game that is.
Line of site still leave the lerk exposed, a fast jet packing marine can easily catch the lerk and cover the 50-100 metre hallway in a matter of seconds.
<b>
[*]Yes, i know that i Bd a statement that some things suck from alien perspective - but i guess the point of me doing that has been lost for you? It was to say , "Yes.. there are many frustrating and sucky things that exist currently.. [b]so why would you want to increase it? </b>Something that 'sucks' does not justify the creation of more of those situations??"
[/B]
Suckiness is relative to the person, I find arc trains sucky as I do flame throwers, but they play a part in the game and allow the marines to scale up their attacks.
Same way the projectile spores did for aliens.
<b>
[*]Lerk spores disable/confuse turrets so a gorge can BB. You wouldnt BB first then spore??
</b>
Bile bombs going back to gorge I though...so your saying as lerk I have to first try to fly past the active sentries and marines to drop a spore bomb so a gorge can try to get close enough to dump some bile bombs? So I need to do that how many times before he can take out 1 sentry?
######...might as well just stay skulk...not wasting 30 res when I die in very little time. Could help the gorge more too and protect him from any marines that might want to chase him and kill him...not much I can do to help as a lerk that does not risk my life (which is 3 x more res) in a 50-50% situation.
<b>
[*]And whose to say that what is coming wont help the lerk in this situation further??
</b>That was not what was asked of us by the OP, he posed some questions which people have put forward thier opinion, its different to yours but equally as valid.
<b>
[*]I lerk more than anything, btw, and i am the dedicated lerker for my clan.. not that this matters or impacts any of my arguments, just answering your question.
</b>
Agreed, might just mean no one else in your clan likes to lerk ;)
<b>
[*]Tough is an understatement as it implies a chance of <u>contention</u> at the very least! Projectile spores did not do this. I reiterate: [b]'Not ever having a chance to visibly identify and combat your opponent'</b>
[/B]
How can I identify where a marine is on my screen when he is jping all over the hive, spamming nades or a flamer?
Obs still provide some local motion tracking for the marines incase that pesky lerk is hiding (I know...being melee and ambush based they should not try to hide...makes it too hard the the marines).
Now that marines have JP's they can pose the same issue to the aliens that a lerk with gas poses to the marines.
Marines in a base with JP's and GL/shottie/flamer are as much a pest as the lerk gas was.
Killing a lerk means 30 P-Res GONE...big risk to take early in game.
Killing a marine means his mates can pick up his guns and so recover atleast part of the spent res that the aliens lose.
I dont always see the marine that kills me...hence why he kills me, this is also the case as marine, as the alien ambush style is reliant on me not seeing them and them being able to do damage to me.
For aliens to be succesful ambushers you will at time not know where they where when you died.
If my projectile spores force you to come find me and walk into an ambush...then I dont see how this is an issue.
If you want to leave gas the way it is...it really needs to be a skulk attribute/upgrade then to be of any use. A skulk has as much chance of running in and out of a marine base as a lerk does...and it doesn't cost 30 res.
In NS1 the lerk had umbra...why because up close the lerk was screwed and needed something to act as a shield and reduce the damage it would take.
NS2 the lerk has the same issue...it cant fight any better than a skulk, here in lies the problem...skulk = free lerk = 30 Pres, I know most clan players would rather fade or onos and spend 5 more minutes skulking before wasting 30 P-res on a lerk.
This is shown by the fact we have so many players all going onos/fade at the same time. If you bring back projectile based spores...you make the lerk a valid tactic to pester the marines and reduce the number of fades/onos that come all at once.
Currently if you look at peoples res..you will have 4-5 people all with about the same res in a 6v6 game.
Aside from going gorge there is nothing to sink res into so the only difference is whether they prefer fade or onos.
Few people waste 30 Pres on a lerk as its under powered and too flimsy, with a fade being only 20 more res it makes more sense to save and go fade.
Lerk sucks in close quarters combat...always has always will. Unless you give him a lot more HP, make spores projectiles or bring back umbra with bite he will never make a consistent appearance or impact on the battlefield.
Make the lerk viable res investment and you solve a large part of the alien tech explosion issue.
Right now the common strategy to combat lerks is to wait for them to exit the room and just spray the doorway(you might not know where the lerk is now, but you know where he's going to be!). If lerks dropped umbra at the same time(or spore had a shielding effect, it doesn't need to be called umbra obviously), it would force marines to recognize an attack early and deal with it quickly, which is what they should be doing anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See my original post on page 1. :-D
Mine:
<Weapon 1> MBUTTON 1=Spikes MBUTTON 2=Lerklift
<Weapon2> MBUTTON 1=Spores MBUTTON 2=Umbra
Puff a little cloud of umbra, roll in it, charge marine base umbraed and gas away! What fun!
weapon 1: spikes, alt fire shotgun (fixed spread)
weapon 2: projectile spores, alt fire projectile umbra
weapon 3: BFG10K
Also random power words in maps so lerks can learn Dragon Shouts.
I want to see a viking from Sovngarde attacking marines.
I want to see a viking from Sovngarde attacking marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but what happens when the Marines <i>kill</i> the lerks? I mean, if one of them did and then tried to use the Spores shout... well. He wouldn't be all that popular. Just sayin'.
Mine:
<Weapon 1> MBUTTON 1=Spikes MBUTTON 2=Lerklift
<Weapon2> MBUTTON 1=Spores MBUTTON 2=Umbra
Puff a little cloud of umbra, roll in it, charge marine base umbraed and gas away! What fun!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shouldn't MBUTTON 2 always be the same ability? Like Leap, Blink...
I guess I'd like
<ul>Alt. attack: umbratrail. Hive abilities:</li><li>0: shotgun spikes (compromise between bite and spikes)</li><li>1: projectile spores</li><li>2: (enables umbratrail)</li><li>3: uhhh... something new. (Jammer spike, disables buildings/HUD for a few seconds?)</li></ul>
That'd also fit with 33% old, 33% new, 33% updated.
...Still, this is just fantasizing about "cool stuff" rather than well thought-out for balance.
<ul><li><b>Tier 0, Passive ability:</b> <i>Thick Skull</i> (Collide with marines to deal speed-based damage and obscure marine sight briefly. Rifle butt vision effect, light damage)</li><li><b>Tier 0, primary fire:</b> <i>Vampiric Bite</i> (Cause initial normal damage and make the target bleed for some biological damage over a few seconds. Stacking bleed)</li><li><b>Tier 1, primary fire:</b> <i>Projectile Spores</i> (Also damage structures in a corrode-like manner. Clouds stacking but heavy cost. Transparent like umbra)</li><li><b>Tier 2, secondary fire:</b> <i>Umbra Trail</i> (envelop lerk and leaves a trail, distract sentry)</li><li><b>Tier 3, primary fire:</b><i> Poison Dart</i> (deals low initial damage and biological damage over some seconds. Biological damage)</li></ul><i>
Vampiric bite idea taken from Live Q&A #3 and Poison Dart from my understanding of the implementation in the Balance.Lua file.</i>
I think this gives every ability a distinctive and separate role. With no hives, you can fly into marines and bite them a few times to kill them, or do a collide+bite to wear them down. Your primary way to take down structures would be the initial damage from your bite. With one hive you can use your spores to assist more safely in taking down structures more and also temporary block block areas. Should not be able to do more then 2-3 clouds back-to-back before you need to wait for energy. With tier 2 you will be able to more safely get into the fray and assist directly in the attack by your umbra trail. Allows you to better last as upgrades start to me more effective from the marine side. With final tier you will be able to stand a chance dealing with exo suits, forcing medpacks to prevent them from dying if left alone. Also allows you to "instantly" kill a marine by Poison Dart+Vampiric Bite+Collide of they have no armor and doesn't get a medpack quickly after).
This would serve the lerk a little better
- Every run would not equal a suicide run
and it would serve the team a bit better
- spores would not just cloud vision it would affect aim.
<b>0: Burst-fire spikes with wide cone of fire</b> (similar effect as shotgun spikes, but slightly more forgiving for new players).
<b>1: Single-fire, non-hitscan, spike, that explodes into a spore cloud on impact.</b> Also does a moderate amount DOT if it directly hits a player, depending on range (closer = more damage).
<b>2: Primal scream</b> (zero, or very small, energy cost).
<b>3: Something new.</b>
Make umbra the Gorge third tier ability, as somebody suggested in a different thread.