Natural Selection 2 News Update - NS2 Build 210 changelog
Flayra
Game Director, Unknown Worlds EntertainmentSan Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
Game Director, Unknown Worlds EntertainmentSan Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
Comments
Also you accidentally left some code in the changelog. :P
**Edit** It's been fixed.
Great patch everyone.
I suppose my only negative comment on this patch is the new marine buy system. I liked the quick buying of the previous builds. More mouse clicks to get items now... unless you feel that it was to quick?
Lurk fix, good. I still went 12-0 last night so I don't feel like they are underpowered. =]
Alien vision also nice improvement in looks. Reminds me of a snakes infrared sensitivity. I <i>think</i> while it is on, your view distance is shorter? When I played previous builds I would use alien vision 85% of the time because it lit up marines like a Christmas tree... it will be a good trade off if it illuminates heat from close targets while limiting your long distance vision.
^Iept, Agree with you on the mine animations. Really like slapping these bad boys on walls and floors. Now some heft to them.
Gorge Bilebomb damage is horrible, making ARC's counter everything aliens have.
Vortex is awesome fun.
Love the game balance atm, neither side seems overwhelming.
-no more energy, awesome
-DOCKING, sick map. Needs some tweaks but looks amazing.
-the crosshair no longer moves (THANK YOUUUU)
-the new shotgun is great, it has it's teeth back
-overall a good patch, the directions taken are in the right stride but there are quite a few things that need ironed out
<!--coloro:#8B0000--><span style="color:#8B0000"><!--/coloro-->criticism:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
-resource economy is out of whack, both teams have an over-abundance of res
-Hive maturation, Advanced Armory, Prototype Lab timings are all a joke, they are extremely fast and easy to get. 2-3 minute leap/shotty, 4-5 minute GL or JP. The early game is now extinct.
-Nano construct/shield are completely out of line now (very spammable)
-Vortex is a bit much. Too little warning/reaction time on the marine's part
-Jetpacks are unmatched, without counter
-Hydras are still free ;/
-cysts are still spammable
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->suggestions:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
-Nanoconstruct bonus needs to be significantly reduced to perhaps a 50-100% speed bonus instead of a crazy 400%, the cost also perhaps needs to be increased to 3-4 t-res
-NanoShield needs to be only usable on structures
-Hydras need to cost p-res
-Hive maturation time needs to be bumped up
-tier 2 alien abilities need to be tied to the second hive, and tier 3 to the third hive
-the delay on blink->swipe and leap->bite (also parasite->bite) need to be removed so that fade/skulk can effectively engage jetpacks
-starting p-res needs to be 15-20 (maybe even just 10), not 25
-Fades either need to be more vulnerable when casting a Vortex, or the vortex needs a 1-2 second delay before it starts vortex'ing to allow players to be able to react
-most things need their research/t-res/p-res cost increased
The gathers have been playing a modded version of the game with a lot of the things I suggested implemented and the game feels so much more balanced and paced. Economy and protecting your RTs is once again the focus of the game and the excitement and battles of trying to deny/push the 2nd hive (that is so important now) is so much more fun. There is also no more life-form tech explosions because aliens must<i></i> use the lower life-forms if they want to ensure their 2nd hive goes up.
Agreed, it fixes the pace of the game and many little things. You should have a serious look at it, i.e. play a couple of games with it.
Definitely love the direction this patch is heading in, but as many have already stated, there's some considerable tweaking that needs to be done, particularly in regards to the economy and overall balance. Unfortunately my performance also feels considerably worse, particularly as aliens for some reason. (And I think GL spam drops my FPS to like 5, not kidding)
P.S Bug report, welder does not seem to damage hives. (I haven't tried it on other structures)
Agree with everything but removing free hydras. (lets not start that one again ;-p)
Agree with everything but removing free hydras. (lets not start that one again ;-p)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's actually not as bad as you'd think! On the mod the hydras are a fatty<b> 8 p-res </b>each, but their health is greatly increased (1k hp+ some armor, takes 4 clips I think to kill?) and they do a pretty good job of being annoying and protecting RTs.
Unless your viewpoint is that the gorge is no fun having to invest p-res into anything but the lifeform, in that case yes they are bad. But for me personally I like the beefy ones that cost p-res instead of the relatively fragile ones on live.
But yes, been there done that in regards to that argument ;P agree to disagree and whatnot.
<!--quoteo(post=1944598:date=Jun 18 2012, 01:35 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jun 18 2012, 01:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What are the economy changes in this 'tweaked' gather version of the game? Sounds interesting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'd have to ask Dragon for that stuff, he made the mod.
I don't see how this is such a fun gameplay scenario. It's like the entire early game is set on making the end game not exist. It's pretty much the marine version of a skulk rush.
If it ever returns to this, at least make it so marines have to research all the armslab upgrades again if they lose it. That structure used to be such a vital point and now it's generally never attacked.
so this is why whips are entirely useless now
If it ever returns to this, at least make it so marines have to research all the armslab upgrades again if they lose it. That structure used to be such a vital point and now it's generally never attacked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It gives a core direction and possible short-term goals to games, if you don't deny the second hive it's not a big deal, the game doesn't become unbalanced either way. 1hive aliens still have a chance to comeback against marines, marines still have a chance to comeback if they don't deny the 2nd hive etc etc. It's not all about the 2nd hive, but the hive is definitely important.
On live it seems to be if you're not absolutely dominating, you're sitting back and just waiting for your tech, usually jp or stompnos (which you can get on 1 base), and then going to push hives/CCs with only marginal combat around RTs. It just feels like the equivalent of Starcraft players waiting till they have a maxed out 200/200 supply to go and fight. The mod is fun because you essentially have a truly game impacting goal mid-game, to get the 2nd hive up or to deny the hive. It also forces aliens to zerg less and play more conservatively to make sure they have the life-forms and techpoints secured in preparation for their 2nd hive.
I probably put that poorly, but in short my opinion it just makes the game more fun and more exciting having t2/3 abilities tied to 2nd hive and 3rd hive respectively. Makes the teamplay in the game less zerg-oriented.
Personally, the second hive fights are some of the defining moments of ns gameplay.. and experiencing them in the mod has been quite fun..
And regarding loosing if the hive dies there have been quite a few games where aliens came back after loosing the initial hive..
It also really comes down to playstyle.. marines can tech and fight 2 hive aliens and attempt to overpower them.. or can try earlier pressure at the cost of upgrade speed..
If you make it so tier 3 aliens are equal to fully teched marines... you end up with a game where it can never end at times.. whcih you really want to try and avoid. If aliens can turtle to tier 3 (which is easy atm), its very easy for them to win.. if tier 3 is too weak then marines just do the same.
The fact that both sides play differently is what makes this game good.. aliens need the map control and expansions.. but in the end are more powerful for it. Marines need rts to outtech aliens but can survive on a single base, but need to pressure the aliens mid to late game or they loose.
Fighting for the hive is one of this whole team fights, that are somewhat missing now in ns2 (remember hive drops in ns1?).
Disclaimer: Opinion inbound
Disagree highly about this being a smart design decision. It may be fun to have a difference in tactics - but not only does it limit the tactics you can choose from (since as you said, they have their roles cut out for them and what their priorities are, such as perform a certain way at a certain time or else they lose) it also is a nightmare to balance properly - if at all.
This is because of one important high level design decision: Map control leads to tech, including passive tech, which leads to winning (an undeniable fact if teams are even in skill) but yet losing map control does not mean losing passive tech - so it is linear. But beyond linear, the requirements for tech are not symmetric between the teams.
Thus, if you make conditions regarding obtaining map control that favor one side over the other (one side loses tech when they lose map control and the other doesnt, or one achieves map control easily but the other doesnt etc) you are giving preference to one side -<b> and then you are attempting to balance everything else around said fundamental difference.</b> (like respawn waves for only one side, or lower RT health for one side etc. etc. ad nauseam)
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->Instead of having a symmetrical (read: equal access) means of gaining map control and tech<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> which is leaps and bounds easier to balance and is far more intuitive. (aliens need techpoints for tech but marines ...dont?)
<i>But i understand everyone wants asymmetry.</i> So i ask:<b> to what degree?</b> to the point of imbalance? to the point of restricting tactics? (marines always on defense and room denial since they dont need techpoints for tech? or aliens don't need to keep similar pressure mid game, as you suggested?)
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->I say keep the asymmetry in the <b>PLAYSTYLE</b>, <i>not in the res model or requirements of gaining tech.</i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
These need to be of equal access. Hell, even SC2 with all it's budget, staff, and time has a hard time accomplishing said feat of balance, yet still has symmetrical maps/access to map control and tech. I mean, the whole reasoning behind the alien commander at all <u>was to create symmetry in the res model! </u>
TLDR: is in green.
NS1 was highly asymmetrical and none of the potential issues you suggest in your post were actual issues. Not much point arguing anything beyond that realization.
<!--quoteo(post=1944638:date=Jun 18 2012, 02:06 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 18 2012, 02:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but not only does it limit the tactics you can choose from (since as you said, they have their roles cut out for them and what their priorities are, such as perform a certain way at a certain time or else they lose) it also is a nightmare to balance properly - if at all. Thus, if you make conditions regarding obtaining map control that favor one side over the other (one side loses tech when they lose map control and the other doesnt, or one achieves map control easily but the other doesnt etc) you are giving preference to one side -<b> and then you are attempting to balance everything else around said fundamental difference.</b> (like respawn waves for only one side, or lower RT health for one side etc. etc. ad nauseam)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Assuming we both agree that NS1 was not the pinnacle of "balance", as well.
Remember that there is a difference between balanced on paper, and perceived in game balance through adjustments such as those mentioned above.
:)
Edit: miss your cat pics, Mendasp... :(
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But i understand everyone wants asymmetry. So i ask: to what degree? to the point of imbalance? to the point of restricting tactics? (marines always on defense and room denial since they dont need techpoints for tech? or aliens don't need to keep similar pressure mid game, as you suggested?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Since aliens HAD to expand, marines had to play offensively early on as well. So they weren't always on defense.. Currently, both sides can be pretty content with sitting on 3 - 4 RTS, both sides can play defensively and just sleepwalk into the lategame. This is INCREDIBLY dull compared to the exciting dynamic gameplay that used to be the '2nd hive denial' game.
Ideally, aliens should be able to manage even with just 1 hive, but they should have a considerably harder time when doing so. This way aliens still stand a chance even if they have their second hive denied, while at the same time marines should not automatically lose a game the moment aliens get the second hive. I.e, it's just a matter of balancing it out correctly, not a fundamental flaw in the design of the '2nd/3rd hive' gameplay. The problem really with the pre-200 builds that had this gameplay was that the second hive was too much of a game changer. (Because you needed it for lifeforms)
Here's a simple way you can make the second hive a lot more important again, without turning it into pretty much the win condition like it did mainly pre-200 (win or loss depends on 2nd hive): Require a second hive for T2 abilities. (Or make it so that T2 abilities are significantly easier/quicker/cheaper to get with/on a second hive) This way marines will play more aggressively in an attempt to lock out aliens from a second hive, while aliens will really want to get that second (and later 3rd) hive.
Whereas I think it's awful, just like in SC2 where terrans can turtle and be more cost efficient with zero skill investment because of MULEs and planetary fortresses.
Some of the fundamentals need to be the same or the game won't ever be an RTS in anything but the simplest contexts ("has a resource system", "has a top down view that makes stuff").
The RTS comparison is bound to fail most of the time, regardless, since resources never run out in NS2. Basically none of the pro-level SC2 games that just finished at Dreamhack would've turned out the same (or been anywhere near as good) if people could mine their first 2/3 bases forever while trading armies. It's really uncommon in general for RTS games to let you mine the same spots endlessly without<i> at least</i> a time gap where something 'regrows'.
:)
Edit: miss your cat pics, Mendasp... :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As much as theres difference between a mod made by one man and a buy2play game 7 years into the development
That would be an interesting mechanic. RTs only produce so much resources, that the commander has to repair the extractor or regrow the harvester after a certain threshold.
I still really think NS2 needs it, and NS1 needed it. It's hard to express why without just saying "Starcraft benefits from it", though..
For the 'regrow' mechanic, take a look at Populous: The Beginning. It's a really weird game as far as mechanics go, but it employs that idea all over the place.
The difference is that you can't put multiple harvesters on one res node (whereas in starcraft you can have a horde of workers on your mineral patch). The only way you're going to win on one harvester in NS2, is if the other team lets you by playing incredibly poorly. In which case you deserve to win anyway, so I fail to see the problem.
Seriously what is fun about spending the entire time trying to break through 20 turrets/whips in EACH ROOM????????????????
Its bloody tower defense. Were not killing other players, were killing buildings. I didn't come to NS2 to kill buildings I came to kill player's.
Ok people may disagree, but that's just my opinion. The game just slugs on and you spend most of it trying to clear rooms. It's boring as hell.
Please go back to lower resource's and maybe overview how you can balance the game with less.
And I love Docking, realy great map! Was getting bored playing heavy industrial maps like Mineshaft and Tram. Docking shows us that open maps with brighter colour palets work very well in NS2 as well.