AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
edited June 2012
The New menu makes more sense tbh Now you only really are able to buy something out of combat. Which discourages midcombat shotty buying and mine buying But people will try it anyway Well a few bites to them!
As to one of the posts prior to me How a bout 2 abilities per hive? that would mean you can only say get leap and spikes on your first hive. Then maybe bile bomb or blink and stomp in the second hive This gives more Reason to kill one of the two hives avaliable. Do you want less skulks leaping and no more spikes, or bilebomb/stomp/blink? Though that said, it also gives the dynamic of "WHICH HIVE IS TH STOMP OR BILE BOMB HIEV NUBS GO FIND OUT K" Commander guy. Owait that would be me. Good god did i come up with a good idea...?
I like the way of the game now.Gets much deeper gameplay wise.And for balance...its beta...much will change...every patch changes...even after 1.0 it will change...but yes we have to balance it :)
What i dont like is the gorge defensive role...hydras are just useless...plz give him 3 more upgraded (more hp/armor) hydras for every build hive or change it to a pres system...in ns1 it made just so much fun as gorge that you could build strucutures and block paths (doesnt matter if it was that usefull lategame :) )...
A question ? are the shell and spur model just placeholders or are this the finished versions ? because i think compared for example to the whip they look horrible...aweful colours and textures...
Thank you for the new alien vision its much better now but still not perfect.
-no more energy, awesome -DOCKING, sick map. Needs some tweaks but looks amazing. -the crosshair no longer moves (THANK YOUUUU) -the new shotgun is great, it has it's teeth back -overall a good patch, the directions taken are in the right stride but there are quite a few things that need ironed out
-resource economy is out of whack, both teams have an over-abundance of res -Hive maturation, Advanced Armory, Prototype Lab timings are all a joke, they are extremely fast and easy to get. 2-3 minute leap/shotty, 4-5 minute GL or JP. The early game is now extinct. -Nano construct/shield are completely out of line now (very spammable) -Vortex is a bit much. Too little warning/reaction time on the marine's part -Jetpacks are unmatched, without counter -Hydras are still free ;/ -cysts are still spammable
-Nanoconstruct bonus needs to be significantly reduced to perhaps a 50-100% speed bonus instead of a crazy 400%, the cost also perhaps needs to be increased to 3-4 t-res -NanoShield needs to be only usable on structures -Hydras need to cost p-res -Hive maturation time needs to be bumped up -tier 2 alien abilities need to be tied to the second hive, and tier 3 to the third hive -the delay on blink->swipe and leap->bite (also parasite->bite) need to be removed so that fade/skulk can effectively engage jetpacks -starting p-res needs to be 15-20 (maybe even just 10), not 25 -Fades either need to be more vulnerable when casting a Vortex, or the vortex needs a 1-2 second delay before it starts vortex'ing to allow players to be able to react -most things need their research/t-res/p-res cost increased
The gathers have been playing a modded version of the game with a lot of the things I suggested implemented and the game feels so much more balanced and paced. Economy and protecting your RTs is once again the focus of the game and the excitement and battles of trying to deny/push the 2nd hive (that is so important now) is so much more fun. There is also no more life-form tech explosions because aliens must<i></i> use the lower life-forms if they want to ensure their 2nd hive goes up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very good post. I'm supporting everything but not the pRes for Hydras and Nanoshield only for buildings. - I like the new role of the gorge and its hydras. They don't need to cost res again, but we got this argument often enough. - Nanoshield is way to strong right now, but it is fixable without banning it completely from players. For example what if Nanoshield would increase the armor of a marine by 50 for 10sec? This way it: - is not redundant with medpack - is counterable by the lerk who goes directly for health - isn't really useful against higher lifeforms - does not give a constant buff over the 10sec but more an additional hit you can endure
<!--quoteo(post=1944620:date=Jun 18 2012, 10:25 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Jun 18 2012, 10:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944620"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it ever returns to this, at least make it so marines have to research all the armslab upgrades again if they lose it. That structure used to be such a vital point and now it's generally never attacked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ THIS! It is difficult enough to get into the marine base and do actual damage to the economy. (Welders and MACs are a default. So if you can't get something broken in your first attack, you won't have a chance to finish the job later.) So if an alien can manage to get that arms lab down, it should have a real impact on the marine economy and they should be forced to research the upgrades again.
UPDATE: Xarius' post sounds also logical for me. Giving an incentive for the 2nd / 3rd hive but don't make it game deciding: <!--quoteo(post=1944690:date=Jun 19 2012, 01:42 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jun 19 2012, 01:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think the t.res/p.res res system is an issue really, but I also do not agree the game needs symmetry in terms of tech progression. Aliens having to expand to reach their lategame and marines being able to stay on one base is not necessarily unbalanced and IMO one of THE features that made NS 1 as fantastic as it was. (Not only do both sides have completely different playstyles on the FPS side of things, they also require completely different strategies from the RTS perspective...)
Since aliens HAD to expand, marines had to play offensively early on as well. So they weren't always on defense.. Currently, both sides can be pretty content with sitting on 3 - 4 RTS, both sides can play defensively and just sleepwalk into the lategame. This is INCREDIBLY dull compared to the exciting dynamic gameplay that used to be the '2nd hive denial' game.
Ideally, aliens should be able to manage even with just 1 hive, but they should have a considerably harder time when doing so. This way aliens still stand a chance even if they have their second hive denied, while at the same time marines should not automatically lose a game the moment aliens get the second hive. I.e, it's just a matter of balancing it out correctly, not a fundamental flaw in the design of the '2nd/3rd hive' gameplay. The problem really with the pre-200 builds that had this gameplay was that the second hive was too much of a game changer. (Because you needed it for lifeforms)
Here's a simple way you can make the second hive a lot more important again, without turning it into pretty much the win condition like it did mainly pre-200 (win or loss depends on 2nd hive): Require a second hive for T2 abilities. (Or make it so that T2 abilities are significantly easier/quicker/cheaper to get with/on a second hive) This way marines will play more aggressively in an attempt to lock out aliens from a second hive, while aliens will really want to get that second (and later 3rd) hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1944621:date=Jun 18 2012, 09:27 PM:name=paradoxum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paradoxum @ Jun 18 2012, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so this is why whips are entirely useless now<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed, is it possible to change this so that they do both? i.e. bat back to enemy unless there are more friendlies than enemies in that direction?
<hr />
Overall I love this build for balance and the removal of the energy as a second kind of res, I understand Charlie's reluctance to remove it but at the same time it was confusing and simplifying it in this way will make the game more accessible and less frustrating to new players while not losing much in the way of flexibility.
I have to say that I have noticed a big performance change in that the whole game seems MUCH slower in this build, I thought you guys were working on improving this not making it worse?!
Docking is an awesome map, with minor bugs, good work.
So overall good work but performance needs some focussed work.
Well the current problem with nano-shield is that it reduces all damage by 50%, and when you put that on players and spam meds on them, it makes them nearly immortal and able to tank several aliens at a time.
I'm sure there's several ways to fix it, I think structure-only is one of the better ones. That way it's still effective in the fact that you can significantly prolong somethings life with it, namely a phase gate, power node or a far RT that's going to take some time to get to. It's just OP and silly when it's cast on player at the moment, <i>especially</i> jetpackers which it really does make immortal for it's duration. I can only imagine an Exo getting nano-spammed. I see a decent marine get nano'd at the moment and I call GG and run away till it dissipates. Commanders can already drop meds, and armor upgrades are very significant in late game.. why do they need more ways to artificially prolong the TTK of players?
On the flip side things like power node/cc/obs rushes really seem like the place where nano can/should be used in it's current design. If you nerf it too much it just won't ever be used again.
Mhh... maybe you are right. But I think it should only give a little advantage that could turn a deciding battle and not a "mandatory" buff. Also when the res income is fixed, it will not be spammed like now. But it sure is overpowered and should be fixed in anyway.
Been seeing a lot more server crashed, maybe it's a coincidence though. Somehow people sometimes clip into walls/ceilings, which then crashes the server it seems.
+ New map is fun and gives us variety, though docking does feel unfinished. + Umbra and xenocide look and feel great + The jetpack is very powerful now, perhaps <i>too</i> manoeuvrable. + I really really like the new alien vision, it's so useful and looks great.
- The game progresses far too quickly there's no time to settle into a match, get to know who your enemies are, experience their tactics and fight back. It's more like the tactics are decided in the first minute (nothing wrong with that), but then the game goes supersonic and bam there are onos everywhere and the rest of the game is onos rushing in and out of marine base. - Found one serious bug where the fade swipe does about 50 attacks per second it was pretty cool lol but I couldn't replicate it. Have the playtesters found that bug? - Marine buy menu is visually hard on the eye. A step up though from the last one which looked too arcade. - Animations are off...I got killed by an Onos when it's model was no where near in contact with the marine model. Same with the skulks, they kill me when they're not even looking my way. Maybe if the rifle had a less than laser precise cone of fire it would be easier to hit aliens. I've played other FPS and even with a poor ping you can still hit stuff, not so much in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1944835:date=Jun 19 2012, 10:36 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Jun 19 2012, 10:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Animations are off...I got killed by an Onos when it's model was no where near in contact with the marine model. Same with the skulks, they kill me when they're not even looking my way. Maybe if the rifle had a less than laser precise cone of fire it would be easier to hit aliens. I've played other FPS and even with a poor ping you can still hit stuff, not so much in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, animations are out of sync/lagging behind whats actually supposed to be happening on your client. I have no technical knowledge so I wouldn't know exactly why its doing this - whether its lag compensation, prediction, or animations just being out of sync.
Another good example is the inability to tell which direction a marine is really looking in. If you get snap shotted by an sg, the marine will still be facing his original direction away from you as you register being shot and dying (model animation lagged behind). Theres no logical correlation between the model and whats actually happening which i would think is crippling on higher level play.
More importantly, animations make it nigh on impossible to track skulks face-palming spacebar near certain kinds of geometry. I would really like to get animations to a place where it doesn't feel like i'm predicting/shooting skulks on crack.
Skulk biting animation/hit reg just feels incredibly poor ever since they tweaked it several patches ago imo, I now find myself rolling my face over the keyboard, just spamming jump left and right in the odd chance I will get a kill on a marine with its narrower bite cone..
I would agree nano-shield on marines is very problematic, it needs to be put it on a cooldown of sorts or just be removed from affecting players. The biggest issue with the JP is: 1. poor performance 2. ridiculous tech speed and low p.res costs, allowing jetpacks 5 - 10 min into the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1944849:date=Jun 19 2012, 10:58 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jun 19 2012, 10:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would agree nano-shield on marines is very problematic, it needs to be put it on a cooldown of sorts or just be removed from affecting players. The biggest issue with the JP is: 1. poor performance 2. ridiculous tech speed and low p.res costs, allowing jetpacks 5 - 10 min into the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think more importantly nano shield cost kinda needs to be upped. Its way too low such that its actually more efficient to nanoshield instead of med marines from a0 up.
nanoshield = 3 meds. a0 with 3 perfectly timed meds = 4 bite a0 with nanoshield = 5 bite.
The efficiency gap gets wider for every armour upgrade.
I don't think you can really address nanoshield through cost, because you'll end up restricting its use heavily early game, while not changing it's spammability lategame, when comms are floating in T.res anyway. That is in build 210 anyway. If they upped all research costs/times, that lategame phase where both sides have nothing to spend resources on may be shorter, and as a result you would probably see less whip/arc/nano/etc spam coming in to play. (Or they can just come up with more and better lategame t.res sinks too)
I mean, If you put nanos at say 5, that's half an RT (Granted RTS are definitely too cheap at the moment) and almost more expensive than the amount you get back from recycling (making the nano structure -> recycle operation pretty pointless)
Together with increasing some of the costs on research/tech, cutting the resource gain rate would also affect nanospam later in the game, at 1res/5s lategame that res which is sunk into nanos/arcs/etc flows is MUCH faster than at the old 1/8 (exacerbating an already prominent lategame issue)
<!--quoteo(post=1944591:date=Jun 18 2012, 09:05 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jun 18 2012, 09:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944591"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-NanoShield needs to be only usable on structures<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This might be a stupid idea: why not make the nanoshield draw power out of the power node and there for be only usable in areas with an active power node?
It's just plain unbalanced on players. Either butcher the damage reduction %, or make it structure only. No amount of res cost increase is going to make it acceptable (it will always be more or less spammable, or at least liberally useable late game)
I was just in a gather where 2 skulks and 1 lerk (who were landing the majority of their bites) could not kill a lone 0/0 LMG marine with nano/med spam. We landed bites on him consistently for a good 5 seconds before he could reload, kill both skulks and drive the lerk away. That is unacceptable no matter how you look at it.
taking a look at docking and looks like a lot of fun, although there is a vent with no textures lol jus says [wall] 64x64 :P also the area thats all open with the crane, I don't get the point of that since theres an invisible ceiling thats pretty low. Just my 2 cents though.
Love the new abilities for the patch, new alien vision looks siiiick, looks kinda ghetto when you turn it off though (very abrupt)
<!--quoteo(post=1944839:date=Jun 19 2012, 10:50 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jun 19 2012, 10:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944839"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another good example is the inability to tell which direction a marine is really looking in. If you get snap shotted by an sg, the marine will still be facing his original direction away from you as you register being shot and dying (model animation lagged behind). Theres no logical correlation between the model and whats actually happening which i would think is crippling on higher level play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some of this is unavoidable given the way the lag compensation works. Other players model facing on your client will always be at least 1/2 * (their ping + your ping) behind what it is on their machine, and the facing on their machine is what is used to calculate the shot (when it gets to the server). If the server tickrate is low that introduces more delay. There is no way around this without prescience, so you may get the message that a marine is now facing you in the same network packet you get the message that he shot you, especially if one of you has a high ping.
EDIT: but faster tickrates improve it, as you get more frequent updates of other players facing direction.
Xenocide seems a bit weak. I can only kill marines with it if they were close to death anyway, in which case I could just have bit them and stayed alive to bite another one.
A powerful Xenocide would help resolve the "late game skulks are basically useless" issue. Just need to make sure it takes some time to unlock.
<!--quoteo(post=1944913:date=Jun 19 2012, 11:59 AM:name=shad3r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shad3r @ Jun 19 2012, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, while I'm posting in this thread...
Xenocide seems a bit weak. I can only kill marines with it if they were close to death anyway, in which case I could just have bit them and stayed alive to bite another one.
A powerful Xenocide would help resolve the "late game skulks are basically useless" issue. Just need to make sure it takes some time to unlock.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with this is that then 2 skulks wipe out an entire marine herd.
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<!--quoteo(post=1944911:date=Jun 20 2012, 01:53 AM:name=shad3r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shad3r @ Jun 20 2012, 01:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944911"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some of this is unavoidable given the way the lag compensation works. Other players model facing on your client will always be at least 1/2 * (their ping + your ping) behind what it is on their machine, and the facing on their machine is what is used to calculate the shot (when it gets to the server). If the server tickrate is low that introduces more delay. There is no way around this without prescience, so you may get the message that a marine is now facing you in the same network packet you get the message that he shot you, especially if one of you has a high ping.
EDIT: but faster tickrates improve it, as you get more frequent updates of other players facing direction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure i understand though. If i get the packet from the server that he shot me, why am i also not getting the packet that he was facing me or was turning to have fired that shot. Its like getting event a after event b when in actuality, event b occured after event a isnt it? For any given delay, shouldn't the events still occur in a logical sequence given 25-30 server ticks? I understand that lag compensation allows for things like 10 meter bites to happen, but isnt it different for model animations lagging behind what the server is telling your client is actually happening?
*edit* the example i experienced had us both at low pings of 20-50.
<!--quoteo(post=1944929:date=Jun 20 2012, 03:21 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jun 20 2012, 03:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944929"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure i understand though. If i get the packet from the server that he shot me, why am i also not getting the packet that he was facing me or was turning to have fired that shot. Its like getting event a after event b when in actuality, event b occured after event a isnt it? For any given delay, shouldn't the events still occur in a logical sequence given 25-30 server ticks? I understand that lag compensation allows for things like 10 meter bites to happen, but isnt it different for model animations lagging behind what the server is telling your client is actually happening?
*edit* the example i experienced had us both at low pings of 20-50.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The sequencing of events on your machine that happen close in time on the server depends on the engine, I don't know how Spark does it exactly. Probably all changes that happen in one server tick get processed and the results come to you in one bunch, meaning you might get both messages at the same time, meaning you likely won't render a frame showing him facing you before your death animation starts - so it looks like he shot you while he was looking in another direction.
Also I forgot you have to add the rendering interpolation delay to the time I quoted, which is 100 msec in Source games, probably the same in NS2 (anyone know?). The server subtracts out the interpolation time when it lag-compensates your shot, but your view of another player's facing direction will always be delayed by at least this much.
Assuming a whole server tick has to pass before it processes a players move command and sends you the message with the players new facing, then that adds another 50msec delay on a 20 tick/second server, and 100msec if the server is struggling at 10 ticks/second.
So two 50msec ping players on a 20 tick/sec server with 100msec interpolation delay gives at least 200msec unavoidable delay in your view of another player's facing direction (if my guesses about Spark's guts are right).
Still most multiplayer shooter games have the same kind of delays, so if NS2 feels wrong, and the server is running fine, then it probably is an issue with animation or something else.
- from Poland, part of Poland - using language spoken/written in Poland - cheap, improvised, low-tech
hope that helps
Thanx SHAD3R for this little course on lag compensation. I hope this will crarify a few things. I once new a Lady from Blight, who travelled quicker than light - She departed one day, in a relative way, and arrived on the previous night.
<!--quoteo(post=1944918:date=Jun 20 2012, 03:10 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 20 2012, 03:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with this is that then 2 skulks wipe out an entire marine herd.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry but I would rather see 4 marines who are huddled/herded together killed by 2 skulks xeno'ing than what happens now where I xeno within bite distance and only I die.
Xeno is stupidly weak at the moment, your unlucky if your killed by it. Which considering it kills the alien too (who will have a longer respawn time 90% of the time) is wrong, if a GL can take out 4 skulks a xeno skulk should be able to take out 4 marines in a 1-1.5m metre radius of the skulk.
You should not have to dry hump the marine to kill him with xeno, its a tier 3 ability not a default ability.
<!--quoteo(post=1946008:date=Jun 23 2012, 03:23 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jun 23 2012, 03:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946008"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry but I would rather see 4 marines who are huddled/herded together killed by 2 skulks xeno'ing than what happens now where I xeno within bite distance and only I die.
Xeno is stupidly weak at the moment, your unlucky if your killed by it. Which considering it kills the alien too (who will have a longer respawn time 90% of the time) is wrong, if a GL can take out 4 skulks a xeno skulk should be able to take out 4 marines in a 1-1.5m metre radius of the skulk.
You should not have to dry hump the marine to kill him with xeno, its a tier 3 ability not a default ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree. Xeno should be considerably more powerful than a grenade. Consider - a grenade launcher has multiple shots that can be fired from range without even a pause for reloading, but Xeno is a one-off that only works in melee range and kills the attacker, taking them completely out of action for a several seconds after.
Comments
Now you only really are able to buy something out of combat.
Which discourages midcombat shotty buying and mine buying
But people will try it anyway
Well a few bites to them!
As to one of the posts prior to me
How a bout 2 abilities per hive? that would mean you can only say get leap and spikes on your first hive.
Then maybe bile bomb or blink and stomp in the second hive
This gives more Reason to kill one of the two hives avaliable.
Do you want less skulks leaping and no more spikes, or bilebomb/stomp/blink?
Though that said, it also gives the dynamic of "WHICH HIVE IS TH STOMP OR BILE BOMB HIEV NUBS GO FIND OUT K" Commander guy.
Owait that would be me.
Good god did i come up with a good idea...?
What i dont like is the gorge defensive role...hydras are just useless...plz give him 3 more upgraded (more hp/armor) hydras for every build hive or change it to a pres system...in ns1 it made just so much fun as gorge that you could build strucutures and block paths (doesnt matter if it was that usefull lategame :) )...
A question ? are the shell and spur model just placeholders or are this the finished versions ? because i think compared for example to the whip they look horrible...aweful colours and textures...
Thank you for the new alien vision its much better now but still not perfect.
-no more energy, awesome
-DOCKING, sick map. Needs some tweaks but looks amazing.
-the crosshair no longer moves (THANK YOUUUU)
-the new shotgun is great, it has it's teeth back
-overall a good patch, the directions taken are in the right stride but there are quite a few things that need ironed out
<!--coloro:#8B0000--><span style="color:#8B0000"><!--/coloro-->criticism:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
-resource economy is out of whack, both teams have an over-abundance of res
-Hive maturation, Advanced Armory, Prototype Lab timings are all a joke, they are extremely fast and easy to get. 2-3 minute leap/shotty, 4-5 minute GL or JP. The early game is now extinct.
-Nano construct/shield are completely out of line now (very spammable)
-Vortex is a bit much. Too little warning/reaction time on the marine's part
-Jetpacks are unmatched, without counter
-Hydras are still free ;/
-cysts are still spammable
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->suggestions:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
-Nanoconstruct bonus needs to be significantly reduced to perhaps a 50-100% speed bonus instead of a crazy 400%, the cost also perhaps needs to be increased to 3-4 t-res
-NanoShield needs to be only usable on structures
-Hydras need to cost p-res
-Hive maturation time needs to be bumped up
-tier 2 alien abilities need to be tied to the second hive, and tier 3 to the third hive
-the delay on blink->swipe and leap->bite (also parasite->bite) need to be removed so that fade/skulk can effectively engage jetpacks
-starting p-res needs to be 15-20 (maybe even just 10), not 25
-Fades either need to be more vulnerable when casting a Vortex, or the vortex needs a 1-2 second delay before it starts vortex'ing to allow players to be able to react
-most things need their research/t-res/p-res cost increased
The gathers have been playing a modded version of the game with a lot of the things I suggested implemented and the game feels so much more balanced and paced. Economy and protecting your RTs is once again the focus of the game and the excitement and battles of trying to deny/push the 2nd hive (that is so important now) is so much more fun. There is also no more life-form tech explosions because aliens must<i></i> use the lower life-forms if they want to ensure their 2nd hive goes up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very good post. I'm supporting everything but not the pRes for Hydras and Nanoshield only for buildings.
- I like the new role of the gorge and its hydras. They don't need to cost res again, but we got this argument often enough.
- Nanoshield is way to strong right now, but it is fixable without banning it completely from players.
For example what if Nanoshield would increase the armor of a marine by 50 for 10sec? This way it:
- is not redundant with medpack
- is counterable by the lerk who goes directly for health
- isn't really useful against higher lifeforms
- does not give a constant buff over the 10sec but more an additional hit you can endure
<!--quoteo(post=1944620:date=Jun 18 2012, 10:25 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Jun 18 2012, 10:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944620"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it ever returns to this, at least make it so marines have to research all the armslab upgrades again if they lose it. That structure used to be such a vital point and now it's generally never attacked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ THIS! It is difficult enough to get into the marine base and do actual damage to the economy. (Welders and MACs are a default. So if you can't get something broken in your first attack, you won't have a chance to finish the job later.) So if an alien can manage to get that arms lab down, it should have a real impact on the marine economy and they should be forced to research the upgrades again.
UPDATE:
Xarius' post sounds also logical for me. Giving an incentive for the 2nd / 3rd hive but don't make it game deciding:
<!--quoteo(post=1944690:date=Jun 19 2012, 01:42 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jun 19 2012, 01:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think the t.res/p.res res system is an issue really, but I also do not agree the game needs symmetry in terms of tech progression. Aliens having to expand to reach their lategame and marines being able to stay on one base is not necessarily unbalanced and IMO one of THE features that made NS 1 as fantastic as it was. (Not only do both sides have completely different playstyles on the FPS side of things, they also require completely different strategies from the RTS perspective...)
Since aliens HAD to expand, marines had to play offensively early on as well. So they weren't always on defense.. Currently, both sides can be pretty content with sitting on 3 - 4 RTS, both sides can play defensively and just sleepwalk into the lategame. This is INCREDIBLY dull compared to the exciting dynamic gameplay that used to be the '2nd hive denial' game.
Ideally, aliens should be able to manage even with just 1 hive, but they should have a considerably harder time when doing so. This way aliens still stand a chance even if they have their second hive denied, while at the same time marines should not automatically lose a game the moment aliens get the second hive. I.e, it's just a matter of balancing it out correctly, not a fundamental flaw in the design of the '2nd/3rd hive' gameplay. The problem really with the pre-200 builds that had this gameplay was that the second hive was too much of a game changer. (Because you needed it for lifeforms)
Here's a simple way you can make the second hive a lot more important again, without turning it into pretty much the win condition like it did mainly pre-200 (win or loss depends on 2nd hive): Require a second hive for T2 abilities. (Or make it so that T2 abilities are significantly easier/quicker/cheaper to get with/on a second hive) This way marines will play more aggressively in an attempt to lock out aliens from a second hive, while aliens will really want to get that second (and later 3rd) hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, is it possible to change this so that they do both? i.e. bat back to enemy unless there are more friendlies than enemies in that direction?
<hr />
Overall I love this build for balance and the removal of the energy as a second kind of res, I understand Charlie's reluctance to remove it but at the same time it was confusing and simplifying it in this way will make the game more accessible and less frustrating to new players while not losing much in the way of flexibility.
I have to say that I have noticed a big performance change in that the whole game seems MUCH slower in this build, I thought you guys were working on improving this not making it worse?!
Docking is an awesome map, with minor bugs, good work.
So overall good work but performance needs some focussed work.
I'm sure there's several ways to fix it, I think structure-only is one of the better ones. That way it's still effective in the fact that you can significantly prolong somethings life with it, namely a phase gate, power node or a far RT that's going to take some time to get to. It's just OP and silly when it's cast on player at the moment, <i>especially</i> jetpackers which it really does make immortal for it's duration. I can only imagine an Exo getting nano-spammed. I see a decent marine get nano'd at the moment and I call GG and run away till it dissipates. Commanders can already drop meds, and armor upgrades are very significant in late game.. why do they need more ways to artificially prolong the TTK of players?
On the flip side things like power node/cc/obs rushes really seem like the place where nano can/should be used in it's current design. If you nerf it too much it just won't ever be used again.
+ Umbra and xenocide look and feel great
+ The jetpack is very powerful now, perhaps <i>too</i> manoeuvrable.
+ I really really like the new alien vision, it's so useful and looks great.
- The game progresses far too quickly there's no time to settle into a match, get to know who your enemies are, experience their tactics and fight back. It's more like the tactics are decided in the first minute (nothing wrong with that), but then the game goes supersonic and bam there are onos everywhere and the rest of the game is onos rushing in and out of marine base.
- Found one serious bug where the fade swipe does about 50 attacks per second it was pretty cool lol but I couldn't replicate it. Have the playtesters found that bug?
- Marine buy menu is visually hard on the eye. A step up though from the last one which looked too arcade.
- Animations are off...I got killed by an Onos when it's model was no where near in contact with the marine model. Same with the skulks, they kill me when they're not even looking my way. Maybe if the rifle had a less than laser precise cone of fire it would be easier to hit aliens. I've played other FPS and even with a poor ping you can still hit stuff, not so much in NS2.
Yea, animations are out of sync/lagging behind whats actually supposed to be happening on your client. I have no technical knowledge so I wouldn't know exactly why its doing this - whether its lag compensation, prediction, or animations just being out of sync.
Another good example is the inability to tell which direction a marine is really looking in. If you get snap shotted by an sg, the marine will still be facing his original direction away from you as you register being shot and dying (model animation lagged behind). Theres no logical correlation between the model and whats actually happening which i would think is crippling on higher level play.
I would agree nano-shield on marines is very problematic, it needs to be put it on a cooldown of sorts or just be removed from affecting players. The biggest issue with the JP is: 1. poor performance 2. ridiculous tech speed and low p.res costs, allowing jetpacks 5 - 10 min into the game.
I think more importantly nano shield cost kinda needs to be upped. Its way too low such that its actually more efficient to nanoshield instead of med marines from a0 up.
nanoshield = 3 meds.
a0 with 3 perfectly timed meds = 4 bite
a0 with nanoshield = 5 bite.
The efficiency gap gets wider for every armour upgrade.
I mean, If you put nanos at say 5, that's half an RT (Granted RTS are definitely too cheap at the moment) and almost more expensive than the amount you get back from recycling (making the nano structure -> recycle operation pretty pointless)
Together with increasing some of the costs on research/tech, cutting the resource gain rate would also affect nanospam later in the game, at 1res/5s lategame that res which is sunk into nanos/arcs/etc flows is MUCH faster than at the old 1/8 (exacerbating an already prominent lategame issue)
but the "ball court" / "gym" ... sorry, but that really doesn't fit in the scifi marine vs. alien theme :(
This might be a stupid idea: why not make the nanoshield draw power out of the power node and there for be only usable in areas with an active power node?
I was just in a gather where 2 skulks and 1 lerk (who were landing the majority of their bites) could not kill a lone 0/0 LMG marine with nano/med spam. We landed bites on him consistently for a good 5 seconds before he could reload, kill both skulks and drive the lerk away. That is unacceptable no matter how you look at it.
Echoed Whips do not automatically attack structures.
Turrets do not always attack cysts. (No clue why.)
Love the new abilities for the patch, new alien vision looks siiiick, looks kinda ghetto when you turn it off though (very abrupt)
Good job on the patch very awesome overall
Some of this is unavoidable given the way the lag compensation works. Other players model facing on your client will always be at least 1/2 * (their ping + your ping) behind what it is on their machine, and the facing on their machine is what is used to calculate the shot (when it gets to the server). If the server tickrate is low that introduces more delay. There is no way around this without prescience, so you may get the message that a marine is now facing you in the same network packet you get the message that he shot you, especially if one of you has a high ping.
EDIT: but faster tickrates improve it, as you get more frequent updates of other players facing direction.
Xenocide seems a bit weak. I can only kill marines with it if they were close to death anyway, in which case I could just have bit them and stayed alive to bite another one.
A powerful Xenocide would help resolve the "late game skulks are basically useless" issue. Just need to make sure it takes some time to unlock.
Xenocide seems a bit weak. I can only kill marines with it if they were close to death anyway, in which case I could just have bit them and stayed alive to bite another one.
A powerful Xenocide would help resolve the "late game skulks are basically useless" issue. Just need to make sure it takes some time to unlock.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with this is that then 2 skulks wipe out an entire marine herd.
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Oyé Oyé
Voici pour ceux qui ne comprenne pas bien l'anglais le detail du changelog en FRANCAIS : D .
Celui-ci étant assez long et Steam refusant apres un certain nombre de caractere de prendre en compte la totalité du changelog je le posterais en deux partie dont voici la première.
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Salut à tous,
Nous avons sortie la build 210 de NS2 ce vendredi dernier.Hugh est toujours en suede à la dream hack, alors nous ne passerons pas de video de démo du patch cette fois ci.Malgre tous vous pouvez avoir une idee des plus gros changements dans cette video : <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2012/6/docking_reveal" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2012/6/docking_reveal</a>
NS2 Build 210
Changement importants.
Ajout d'une nouvelle map : ns2_docking
Supressions de l'utilisation de l'energie par les structures et pour les abilités du commandeur tel que Cyst, Distress beacon, Medpack, now all of this use Tres ...
Ajout de labilite Vortex au fade en tier 3.Le fade peut désactiver des structures et des joueurs temporairement en les envoyant dans un Vortex.
Ajout d'un nouveau menu pour l'armory et le prototype lab.
Ajout d'un effet "fantome" transparent bleuté en texture des structures marines non construites.
Ajout d'u model pour les mines.
Changements et Gameplay
L'indicateur de réussite de tir disparait maintenant plus vite.
Les whip maintenant ne renvoye plus les grenades sur l'attaquant de celle-ci mais essaye des les envoyer au plus loin des structures aliens proches.
Le viseur ne bouge plus avec la camera de la vue du joueur.
Les structures non construites disparaissent si elles sont touchées par l'infestation.
Augmentation du rayon d'action des shade pour cloaker les alentours de 15 Ã 22.
Les structures non construites peuvent maintenant etre recyclées.
Recycler des structures non construites entierement ne rapporte plus l'integralité des ressources de départ et prend un certain temps à operer.
Reduction de l'éparpillement des plombs du SG légérement.
Les armes "drop" ou laissées à terres apres la mort du joueurs laisse maintenant des munitions pour les autre joueurs si ceux ci dispose de l'arme adéquate.
Fixes
Les oeufs aliens ne devrait plus spawner sur le dessus des ressource point.
Fix d'un bug dans le systeme des binds lorsque le joueurs en posséde beaucoup.
Fix d'un bug visuel ou les structures aliens avec tres peu d'HP perde du sang.
Fix d'un bug ou les hydras accrochées à des clogs tombais dans le vide de la map.
Fix d'un bug visuel ou les ressource towers ne mentionnais pas leurs niveau de construction ou leurs état.
Fix d'un bug ou le son s'arretais de jouer lors d'un changement d'armes ou d'abilités.
Fix d'un bug ou le commandant aliens pouvais voir le jetpack des marines volant sur la carte sans voir le corps de ceux ci.
Fix d'un bug ou le son de degainement se repetait plusiseurs fois apres avoir fini d'utiliser une structure.
Fix d'un bug ou l'on ne voyais l'indicateur de dommage lors de l'utilisation du welder.
Fix de l'exploit avec Hypermutation.
Fix d'un bug rare au niveau du script causer par la mort dun joueurs aliens au meme moment que le finissement de la recherche d'une abilité.
Fix du wall jump exploit.
Fix d'un bug ou l'icon du welder aparraissait sur les unités tuées.
Il n'est plus possible de changer de mode en spectateur lorsque l'ont est sur le point de respawn. Merci a Hampton.
Il est maintenant possible de spawn sur des oeufs d'un hive qui vient recemment d'etre tué.
Il est maintenant plus possible de perdre des ressources en scannant des endroits noir de la carte par erreur, ceci coutant des Tres pour rien avant.
Utiliser la cvar "kill" n'a plus aucun effet en étant spectateur.
Ameliorations
Ajout de la command console, clear_binding pour supprimer un bind console anterieur.
Les cysts et l'infestation sont maintenant cloakées si un des hives est un Shade hive et/ou qu'un shade en soit à proximité.
Les changement sur la minimap du commander ( click ..) et/ou les boutons type medpack sont ignorées si celui-ci selectione au meme moment des unités.
La publication et la mise a jour des modifications se font maintenant sous le plus haut degré de compression, ameliorant les performances. Merci à fsfod.
ns2_summit
Fix des ombres a SUB ACCES.
Fix d'un bug de blocage ( stuck bug ) Ã Computer Lab, Sub Access escaliers,
dans le couloir entre Atrium and Crevice, les chaises de Flight Control, dans les escaliers dans Summit Reception.
Changement de place du power point dans data core pres de la Ressource Tower adjacente.
Changement de place du power point dans Flight Control pres des escalier coté Comp lab.
Changement de place du power point dans Sub Access à lancienne place de la RT.
Moved Sub Access RT pres de la fosse en face du hive.
Amelioration de la circulation des joueurs dans la ready room.
SDK
Ajout de fog_area_modifier utilisé pour controlé la quantité de brouillard dans un endroit donné.
Fix d'un bug ou les textures animées ne se mette pas a jour proprement quand elle s'ont rendue graphiquement en AVI depuis le CINEMATIC EDITOR.
Traduit par Tux pour NS2France. | NS2Fra | tag on server.
<a href="http://ns2fra.free.fr" target="_blank">http://ns2fra.free.fr</a> ( French ns2 community whit Teamspeak, server, night party of ns2 etc )
<a href="http://steamcommunity.com/groups/NS2Fra" target="_blank">http://steamcommunity.com/groups/NS2Fra</a>
EDIT: but faster tickrates improve it, as you get more frequent updates of other players facing direction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure i understand though. If i get the packet from the server that he shot me, why am i also not getting the packet that he was facing me or was turning to have fired that shot. Its like getting event a after event b when in actuality, event b occured after event a isnt it? For any given delay, shouldn't the events still occur in a logical sequence given 25-30 server ticks? I understand that lag compensation allows for things like 10 meter bites to happen, but isnt it different for model animations lagging behind what the server is telling your client is actually happening?
*edit* the example i experienced had us both at low pings of 20-50.
*edit* the example i experienced had us both at low pings of 20-50.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The sequencing of events on your machine that happen close in time on the server depends on the engine, I don't know how Spark does it exactly. Probably all changes that happen in one server tick get processed and the results come to you in one bunch, meaning you might get both messages at the same time, meaning you likely won't render a frame showing him facing you before your death animation starts - so it looks like he shot you while he was looking in another direction.
Also I forgot you have to add the rendering interpolation delay to the time I quoted, which is 100 msec in Source games, probably the same in NS2 (anyone know?). The server subtracts out the interpolation time when it lag-compensates your shot, but your view of another player's facing direction will always be delayed by at least this much.
Assuming a whole server tick has to pass before it processes a players move command and sends you the message with the players new facing, then that adds another 50msec delay on a 20 tick/second server, and 100msec if the server is struggling at 10 ticks/second.
So two 50msec ping players on a 20 tick/sec server with 100msec interpolation delay gives at least 200msec unavoidable delay in your view of another player's facing direction (if my guesses about Spark's guts are right).
Still most multiplayer shooter games have the same kind of delays, so if NS2 feels wrong, and the server is running fine, then it probably is an issue with animation or something else.
- from Poland, part of Poland
- using language spoken/written in Poland
- cheap, improvised, low-tech
hope that helps
Thanx SHAD3R for this little course on lag compensation. I hope this will crarify a few things.
I once new a Lady from Blight, who travelled quicker than light - She departed one day, in a relative way, and arrived on the previous night.
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/Drakuu/2012-06-22_00003.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Hey now, give them some credit. It takes a lot of skill to hit that z key repeatedly on the robotics factory.
Sorry but I would rather see 4 marines who are huddled/herded together killed by 2 skulks xeno'ing than what happens now where I xeno within bite distance and only I die.
Xeno is stupidly weak at the moment, your unlucky if your killed by it. Which considering it kills the alien too (who will have a longer respawn time 90% of the time) is wrong, if a GL can take out 4 skulks a xeno skulk should be able to take out 4 marines in a 1-1.5m metre radius of the skulk.
You should not have to dry hump the marine to kill him with xeno, its a tier 3 ability not a default ability.
Xeno is stupidly weak at the moment, your unlucky if your killed by it. Which considering it kills the alien too (who will have a longer respawn time 90% of the time) is wrong, if a GL can take out 4 skulks a xeno skulk should be able to take out 4 marines in a 1-1.5m metre radius of the skulk.
You should not have to dry hump the marine to kill him with xeno, its a tier 3 ability not a default ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree. Xeno should be considerably more powerful than a grenade. Consider - a grenade launcher has multiple shots that can be fired from range without even a pause for reloading, but Xeno is a one-off that only works in melee range and kills the attacker, taking them completely out of action for a several seconds after.