Spikes

1dominator1 · June 2012

<div class="IPBDescription">What happened to them?</div>I dont know what happened, but since b112 they seem incapable of hitting marines at anything but point blank range. I would be chasing a marine down as lerk flying maybe 5 metres behind him as he is running away and tracking the center of his back and yet would only score 1 hit every 2-4 sec (this was not a one time occurance but would happen every time I tried using spikes). Considering how fast they fire this seems to me absurd. Considering spikes is the only hope lerks have against shotguns. What exactly changed this build?

MisterNubs · June 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>-Lerk spikes changed to more of a shotgun type spread.</div>

Not sure if the damaged was upped with this change or not, but this would explain why using spikes at a distance sucks now. Can't have ranged aliens, no sir.

XeiZ · June 2012

Ryne and me tested it using trace bullets command, they seem even worse than shotgun spread now.

Wheeee · June 2012

that's pretty unacceptable considering shotguns do about 3-4x dps of lerk spikes.

ellnic · June 2012

I am not to keen with this either. Spike damage has already been reduced and to make them less accurate is a bit drastic.

Ryne · June 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ellnic @ Jun 30 2012, 05:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948093"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I am not to keen with this either. Spike damage has already been reduced and to make them less accurate is a bit drastic.</div>

Yeah it is really not a good system if you thin about it...

A shotgun has multiple pellets that cover a spread. If you aim at something, you are going to hit it with some of the pellets.

With spikes having a spread but being single projectile (albeit rapid fire), you arent going to always hit something you are DIRECTLY aiming at.....this just isnt how it should be for an FPS.

ellnic · June 2012

Yes I agree. If this is the way it is going to be, then at least make it more accurate then a shotgun. Spikes are one on very few ranged weapons that aliens posses so to have them as they are is a step in the wrong direction. Maybe have them so over distance they lose accuracy and they drop a quite a fair bit and at close range they are accurate

Cee Colon Slash · June 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryne @ Jun 30 2012, 10:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948099"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>With spikes having a spread but being single projectile (albeit rapid fire), you arent going to always hit something you are DIRECTLY aiming at.....this just isnt how it should be for an FPS.</div>

+1.

IronHorse · June 2012

I'm actually with you guys on this one... especially after the really cool semi automatic shotgun stuff that we were playing around with, it was far more suited to deal with <i>groups of marines</i>.. you know, how you typically stumble upon them?

Lets get some more +1s here to get this changed :)

twiliteblue · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 30 2012, 08:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm actually with you guys on this one... especially after the really cool semi automatic shotgun stuff that we were playing around with, it was far more suited to deal with <i>groups of marines</i>.. you know, how you typically stumble upon them?

Lets get some more +1s here to get this changed :)</div>

I would love to see the return of full automatic Shotgun Spikes (which was tested recently). It doesn't need to have high DPS, but some (half?) of the spikes fired should stay near the crosshair (using the shotgun pattern design), so it is useful for harassing from medium (10-15m) range.

1dominator1 · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 30 2012, 11:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm actually with you guys on this one... especially after the really cool semi automatic shotgun stuff that we were playing around with, it was far more suited to deal with <i>groups of marines</i>.. you know, how you typically stumble upon them?

Lets get some more +1s here to get this changed :)</div>

Does this look like a democracy to you?

Angelusz · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Jun 30 2012, 11:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948131"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Does this look like a democracy to you?</div>

There's no need to be snide. It's not a democracy, but the devs definitely take what is posted here to heart.

---

I'm giving this my +1 as well. Reduced damage would be a better solution than reduced accuracy - it's just annoying to shoot right at things without hitting them.

DrFlammable · July 2012

i think reducing the spread anymore than it currently is will make the lerk too powerful. i'm having no issues killing marines with lerk in 212. swoop in for a bite then finish them off with spikes while the poison DoT goes. trying to fly evasively while spiking a marine isn't going to allow you to be perfectly accurate with a reduced-spread spikegun anyways. the current effective spike range has me flying safely outside of the deadly 1 to 2 shot shotgun death range which is fine. if anything i think the additional armor they put on cara for the lerk is a little too powerful.

TimMc · July 2012

I've seen far more spike kills since this change than before. Far more lerk deaths though, since they have to get so close.

Since the spikes do so little damage compared to shotguns, it would be nice if they had a secondary effect - such as slowing down the marine to keep him in your gas cloud?

Xarius · July 2012

I don't know why they need shotgun type spike, the old ones were more or less fine but just needed some improving. Now the gorge's spit, that should be turned into a proper 'shotgun type' weapon, as it would actually fit with its combat engineer role and give marines a reason to stay away. But instead, he has to have this ###### inaccurate spit that really isn't worthy for a 'combat engineer'.

bily · July 2012

Spikes seem to do a lot more damage now if you can land them reliably, like against buildings for instance. I'm not sure if its due to some damage increase or the attack speed, but spikes seem to be far more effective against buildings than in recent builds which they just melt through currently. My biggest problem with the changes in 212 is how drastic the cara slowdown seems to be on the lerk especially with shotguns the way that they are and everywhere.

elmo9000 · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 1 2012, 01:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948160"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't know why they need shotgun type spike, the old ones were more or less fine but just needed some improving. Now the gorge's spit, that should be turned into a proper 'shotgun type' weapon, as it would actually fit with its combat engineer role and give marines a reason to stay away. But instead, he has to have this ###### inaccurate spit that really isn't worthy for a 'combat engineer'.</div>

How can you call gorge spit inaccurate when it has perfect accuracy? The reason why its so hard to hit is because it leaves so far ahead of the gorge that it goes through close marines, and the hitreg is so bad. Lerk spikes should of gone back to the old shotgun spikes instead on rapid fire spikes with ridiculous spread.

Xarius · July 2012

Inaccurate wasn't the right word, but you know what I mean.

tux77 · July 2012

Did i am the only one think spikes is more powerfull now lol ( interrogation dot my touch dont work on my keybord sry)

I think now when you see group of marine your more powerfull by sporing biting them comeback finish whit spike and for killing rt its better in my mind.

Im a lerk who only use bite but sometime from long range where i know if i go even whit evasive movement i will get sg lvl3 killed; spike are welcome :) and i think thyey do a great job now ; but maybe its just an illusion amked by the new song who is more strong/louder :D .

Tux

fanatic · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Jul 1 2012, 12:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948171"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Lerk spikes should of gone back to the old shotgun spikes instead on rapid fire spikes with ridiculous spread.</div>
I'm all for shotgun spikes (or preferably burst fire with wide spread), but there's one caveat: you also have to change the spores from the "crop duster" model to a ranged model.

The reason why is pretty obvious; if the lerk has no medium+ range attack options, the shotgun will, in reality, be a hard counter to lerks.

The argument should be; either:

A. Melee range spores and medium+ range spikes (current lerk)

or

B. Medium+ range spores and melee range spikes

Smasher · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 1 2012, 12:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948206"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>...</div>
^That is a valid point.

Deadzone · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 1 2012, 11:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948206"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>The argument should be; either:

A. Melee range spores and medium+ range spikes (current lerk)

or

B. Medium+ range spores and melee range spikes</div>

Sounds fair to me. The lerk in NS1 used to be a RANGED harasser with a MELEE finishing attack. I'm not too concerned if they flipped it to cropdusting + ranged spikes, though, since I find the cropdusting pretty interesting.

MisterNubs · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 1 2012, 12:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948206"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>A. Melee range spores and medium+ range spikes (current lerk)

or

B. Medium+ range spores and melee range spikes</div>

Inb4 "Range too annoying as marine, make them melee range so I can one shot them with a shotgun".

I'm for B, since poison bite is pitiful and cropdusting spores is suicidal vs shotguns.

bily · July 2012

I feel there is definitely a need for ranged dot especially since once marines get weapons 3, crop dusting lerk is suicidal. One of the problems is alien armor doesn't scale and cara slowdown really hampers those first couple flaps that decide whether you get away or just stall in midair and get shotgunned.

elmo9000 · July 2012

Yeah i agree that the spores should be reverted to ranged. Not only will it make the spores more useful for the lerk, and we can get rid of their vision impairing properties. To my logic most of the abilites seem just "backwards". All the DoT effects are on lowrange abilities and the direct raw damage on the ranged. Imo it should be exactly the different way around. If i commit myself all the way to melee range i want to deal raw damage so i can kill the target and get out quick before im shot down, not to make some DoT that is so slow that you are required to stay there doing it over and over again if you want to kill. That is the (ranged)spores job, to make DoT that can be negated with a medpack but it doesnt require the lerk to suicide to be effective.

Kurrine · July 2012

<span style="color:#9ACD32">+1 for ranged spores back as well. Trails were pretty cool looking and the visual obstruction is a perhaps overly synergistic with skulks, but in late-game practice it's a bit high risk low reward.

If it had a similar visual effect and range of Umbra currently It'd also feel quite a bit more organic than the old unnatural NS1 ranged gas bubble it was before.

I also thought shotgun spike was a step towards a decent and flexible ability, though the old damage was too high and the energy drain insane for what is at least supposed to be a general support class. Right now aside from spore sometimes and umbra.. I'm getting more of a less defined hit and run assassin class feel.</span>

IronHorse · July 2012

Guys we tried this for the better part of a year , over many different iterations, <b>it did not work.</b>
It is not in line with what the devs want for the class. Moreover, with some minor adjustments such as additional initial coverage of the spores, Mixed with faster lerk speeds, I believe it will work out just fine.
Search the forums for more in depth explanations on what went wrong, if you'd like.

internetexplorer · July 2012

Ranged spores were tried when the game was in its infancy - the majority of the mechanics that are in it now were not in it then. So much is different, and people still identify the same core design flaws that are tied to cropduster spores. Are all of them wrong just because you had ranged spores when there was no onos in the game and there was 1 map?

IronHorse · July 2012

The core design isn't an issue, it's the lack of adjustments to it like I mentioned above.

And to answer your question directly: yes. The onos not being implemented or whatever feature that wasn't present has no bearing on the reason why it was removed - it purely had to do with lerk to marine interaction.
I know I've explained exactly what this was to you in the past, Internet explorer, so searching for that discussion again will be easy :-)

internetexplorer · July 2012

Link me to it :)

bily · July 2012

I agree with elmo, it feels like spikes being burst and bite being dot even sounds backwards. I personally would like to see how lerk plays with a burst bite and accurate ranged dot spikes with minor burst damage, without changing cropdusting except for possibly a larger intial area. I think this will give the lerk more flexibility throughout the match. With a burst bite and cropdusting, the lerk can be more directly involved in influencing battles in the early stages and be able to clean up its own mess without depending on spikes or skulks (as a thirty res lifeform ought to be able to). Then, later game when the marines have weapons 3 and cropdusting is suicidal, the lerk can still be a factor with ranged spike dots and umbra. By simply switching the mechanics of the bite and spike I feel that the lerk has more options to harass throughout a game, being able to go toe to toe with unupgraded marines early game and then drifting back to be more of a support/harass class late with its ranged attacks.

Spikes

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