Probable fix for late-game-issues
_Necro_
Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">A maximum of T-Res that can be harvested per RT</div>Let me explain. Lately I played more and more games where both teams are relatively equal in skill (or noobishness if you want). As this is the preferable game, it has some side effects that cause problems right now, because this games can go on longer than the tech tree reaches. I have to admit that I only play pub-games. Comp-games may be over quicker because of better team play. So what are the problems I'm seeing with this long lasting games? In (ultra-)late-games there is:<ul><li>Spam of ARCs. (Leads to a grinding marine-win that is not really counter-able by the aliens.)</li><li>Spam of alien buildings. (That is only counter-able with ARCs.)</li><li>Spam of abilities. (No more decission-making in the use of them.)</li><li>Spam of Hives that leads to a game of tag. (or find the hives)</li><li>Spam of marine buildings (Armorys! Armorys everywhere! And wait till next build to get back turret-farms.)</li></ul>
One simple idea would fix all this problems:<ul><li><b>Give every Resource-Node a finite amount of T-Res that can be harvested from them.</b></li><li><b>After a Res-Node is depleted, it only produces 1/10 of the T-Res it normally does.</b></li><li>Show the remaining T-Res of every Resource-Node when the commander clicks the RT or the node. (Maybe even show it on the map.)</li><li>The maximum number of all T-Res that can be harvested in the map should be enough for both teams to reach the end of their tech tree, when the RTs where even split between the teams the whole round.</li><li>P-Res are not affected. (Giving RTs still a meaning in late-game.)</li></ul>
The point of this is, that both coms can build and use abilities even after the RTs are depleted, but the slower rate will compensate that there is nothing left to research.
Teams that were dominating the whole round could easier end the game, because the other team need much longer to reach the end of their tech tree.
Resource-Nodes that were to dangerous to place a RT at first, would become heavy fighting ground in the late-game. (Battle for the "last resources".) This way it introduces a new layer of possible tactics for the commanders.
It fixes all the spam-problems that we encounter in longer lasting games right now.
It doesn't touch personal resources, so you can still use all the guns / life-forms that were researched at late-game.
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro-->Edit: I want to highlight some things that have gone through unnoticed.<ul><li>Personal Resources are unaffected by this change!</li><li>Long lasting games will happen no matter what. It has nothing to do with teams that are to noobish to win!</li></ul><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
One simple idea would fix all this problems:<ul><li><b>Give every Resource-Node a finite amount of T-Res that can be harvested from them.</b></li><li><b>After a Res-Node is depleted, it only produces 1/10 of the T-Res it normally does.</b></li><li>Show the remaining T-Res of every Resource-Node when the commander clicks the RT or the node. (Maybe even show it on the map.)</li><li>The maximum number of all T-Res that can be harvested in the map should be enough for both teams to reach the end of their tech tree, when the RTs where even split between the teams the whole round.</li><li>P-Res are not affected. (Giving RTs still a meaning in late-game.)</li></ul>
The point of this is, that both coms can build and use abilities even after the RTs are depleted, but the slower rate will compensate that there is nothing left to research.
Teams that were dominating the whole round could easier end the game, because the other team need much longer to reach the end of their tech tree.
Resource-Nodes that were to dangerous to place a RT at first, would become heavy fighting ground in the late-game. (Battle for the "last resources".) This way it introduces a new layer of possible tactics for the commanders.
It fixes all the spam-problems that we encounter in longer lasting games right now.
It doesn't touch personal resources, so you can still use all the guns / life-forms that were researched at late-game.
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro-->Edit: I want to highlight some things that have gone through unnoticed.<ul><li>Personal Resources are unaffected by this change!</li><li>Long lasting games will happen no matter what. It has nothing to do with teams that are to noobish to win!</li></ul><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Comments
Definitely a good idea to consider, I'm up for trying it personally.
Skulk vs LMG is fun, but not very good at busting bases, so lots of stalemates as a result.
And I'm sure it didn't play very well, the same reason it didn't go into the game.
It would mean that if you lose your lifeforms/weapons in the lategame, it will be very hard to aquire new ones.
That causes stalemates. And it is not a great approach for a game like NS2.
The "spamming problems" we see in the end-game can be fixed by adjusting costs.
Skulk vs LMG is fun, but not very good at busting bases, so lots of stalemates as a result.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please read the post before answering.<b> P-Res is unaffected. </b>Also both teams only "run out" at the same time, when they hold the same amount of RTs the whole time. Also even after the RTs are depleted there is some slow income.
You have 7/8 rts and the opposing team has 1/8. You have an overwhelming TRes flow and should be able to capitalize on it. Take out their last RT as many times as it takes or take out the base.
I think it is just a lack of knowledgeable players that prolongs games. We have a new influx of players brand new to the NS series every event UWE does without a tutorial or much in game help (which really cant be helped without a single player or over abundance of annoying in game pop ups). A strong leader in the commander roll will fix this and of course teams who listen.
A mic should be required to comm imo.
Maybe a short intro video of what things do in a quick 5 second blurb or montage at the first start up of NS2 would be a good idea or maybe instead of those loading screens hehe. Takes forever to get into a server, why not put it to good use like MMO's do.
So would having a Nuke button appear at 15 minutes into the game. Just because it solves it doesnt mean it solves it well. Balance out Res flow per RT and strengthen Tier 3 while still having a way to bounce back. Ex. Hive 3 tech which goes away once destroyed and AA/Proto for the marine side. It worked well in NS 1 and can be improved on in NS2.
If a team is allowed to "spam" build 15 arcs then the alien team deserves to lose. The problem would be i you can spam 15 arcs before the other team has a chance to counter. When marines have a forward base with arcs pumping out that to me is a game ender and well played by the marines, not unfair. When the marines are on one node with aliens having captured every room/node except marines start and they still build 15 arcs THEN we have a problem.
Spamming in itself is a means to an end. When it is allowed shame on the other team =)
Tres only comes from resnodes.
Pres only comes from CC/Hive.
This model could allow res flow to be tweaked very easily since each structure would only allow 1 type of res. This way a limit on how much res can be gained wouldn't be required and res flow could be adjusted however its need
Tres only comes from resnodes.
Pres only comes from CC/Hive.
This model could allow res flow to be tweaked very easily since each structure would only allow 1 type of res. This way a limit on how much res can be gained wouldn't be required and res flow could be adjusted however its need<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
having pres come from a cc/hive was talked about long while ago. was it ever tried?
Leaving PRes unaffected would only make it worse. The problem is that spawning (new units) are free in NS2, such that the likely outcome of these types of games are even worse stalemates. This works in SC1/2 because all units cost resources, such that when you run out, you can't do anything except lose any of your existing units/structures.
How about every time a player dies, 1 t.res is deducted to respawn the dead player. It'll help slow down the early game even more, and it will make it near impossible for marines to turtle on 1 rt.
The RTs don't stop giving out T-Res. It is just slowed down to compensate the missing of new tech to research. It is far away from a Nuke-Button that ends the game. In reality it is the opposite. It guaranties for longer lasting balanced late-games that doesn't end into spam-partys or stalemates.
<!--quoteo(post=1950355:date=Jul 10 2012, 07:26 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Jul 10 2012, 07:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950355"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a team is allowed to "spam" build 15 arcs then the alien team deserves to lose. The problem would be i you can spam 15 arcs before the other team has a chance to counter. When marines have a forward base with arcs pumping out that to me is a game ender and well played by the marines, not unfair. When the marines are on one node with aliens having captured every room/node except marines start and they still build 15 arcs THEN we have a problem.
Spamming in itself is a means to an end. When it is allowed shame on the other team =)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is very short-sighted. You can't just paint it black or white. I don't know if you only play competitive games, but I have played many games that where actually even the whole time. Both teams could hold the half of the map. It was really fun and balanced in skill. But as soon as the tech-tree ended, the spamming begun. So again: This is not a problem of a noob team, that should have ended the game before minutes. It is a real problem in the best-case-scenario: skill-balanced-teams
<!--quoteo(post=1950384:date=Jul 10 2012, 09:03 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jul 10 2012, 09:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950384"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Leaving PRes unaffected would only make it worse. The problem is that spawning (new units) are free in NS2, such that the likely outcome of these types of games are even worse stalemates. This works in SC1/2 because all units cost resources, such that when you run out, you can't do anything except lose any of your existing units/structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't see how the problems I have described in the OP arise from the constant income of P-Res. Please explain. Leaving the P-Res unchanged is not a problem.
I'm more than willing to see this change.
Come on people. I can't see a single argument against that. Give me some critics that actually match my original post. All I got was arguments that assumed wrong initial points. I really want to discuss this idea and not an idea that cuts T-Res-income completely after depletion of the nodes or an idea that cuts P-Res-income too.
Again to all the critics I got until now: With the solution in the main post...<ul><li>...there will be no shortage of late-game-tech because P-Res-income is unaffected.</li><li>...there will be no shortage of abilities, because the T-Res-Income isn't cut completely. It's only toned down. (In respect of the fact that you reached the end of the tech-tree and there is nothing left to research.)</li><li>...you will be able to build destroyed buildings again, new ARCs etc. it will just stop the spam.</li><li>Late-game-spam is NOT a problem of noobish teams, it happens in every game that is so good skill-balanced that no team can end it easily.</li></ul>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdDvvrc5Eb8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdDvvrc5Eb8</a>
I'm sure there is cases where limited resources can do good, but it seems from this example they could also do bad.
The only way one team wins is when the other gives up from bordom.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdDvvrc5Eb8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdDvvrc5Eb8</a>
I'm sure there is cases where limited resources can do good, but it seems from this example they could also do bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have watched it now and I doubt that it would have lead to a stalemate. You could hold 5 RTs and more most of the time, while aliens only got 2. You got even enough T-Res to block the path to your base with two armories. In this map there are 9 RTs. So you would need 4.5 RTs to get to the end of your tech-tree (=enough res for all upgrades and weapons + some things like PGs, ARCs, outposts). With your 5 RTs you hadn't even reached the "depletion" before your com started building ARCs. And even than there would have been an income of 1/10. The aliens on the other side wouldn't have come even near to stomp or bilebomb. Their two RTs were toned down to 1/10 long before. Leading to a faster victory for you.
<!--quoteo(post=1950587:date=Jul 11 2012, 03:06 PM:name=Rebel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rebel @ Jul 11 2012, 03:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950587"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doesn't work as stated: what can turn a violent and vaired standoff with lots of units vying for a chink the other teams armour turns into a very VERY boring stalemate with *ABSOLUTELY* no way of ether team breaking the others base defenses.
The only way one team wins is when the other gives up from bordom.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*sigh* Again: This "depletion" does not apply to P-Res. You can buy all your weapons, lifeforms even in late-game if you have enough RTs. Only your T-Res income will be so low, that you need very long to get all the upgrades, when you are low on RTs. This will not lead to stalemates. This will bring a game faster to an end, when one team is dominating the whole round, like in the video from Yuuki. Because the difference in tech (not in weapons!) and available abilities will be higher as it is now. You won't be able to replace your static base defenses as fast as now. The game would focus of player vs player and not player vs buildings / ARCs as it is now.
In the early and mid game every team needs to spend T-Res for Upgrades and buildings. But as soon as the end of the tech-tree is reached, there is an overflow of T-Res that will be used to spam. You have to realize this fact.
I don't agree with this. The marines can tier up with 1 base. The aliens are forced to have more than 1 hive or else they can't pick more than 1 upgrade, and need 3 hives to build the 3 upgrade structures like the shell.
I dont ever consider pub games skill-balanced-teams in the case of balancing the game. If you had 8-8 of all new players this is a skill balanced game.
In your case i do not know the skill of the players but i can assume the marines had no idea what they were doing if they were allowed to reach max tech AND have an ARC train. Aliens have little to no defense against the ARCS that can fire through walls and be repaired by welders/macs.
If there is an abundance of res as you seem to want to fix then the Marine team should have been able to send a squad of 5 arcs to each hive/defensive location. Pub teams have a horrible time defending and coordinating against a multi-prong attack. (i am generalizing but only in my experience. I dont mean every game.)
In NS1 Marines were all about denial. Deny aliens hive 3/tech 3 or lose. Once aliens got that foothold it was extremely difficult to reverse the games course. Aliens in NS2 lack that Hive 3/Tech 3 advantage.
Marines in NS2 seem to have an overwhelming advantage when they are all tech'd out and the aliens fail to use the power node system to their advantage.
So in response to your OP, i believe a team at top tech with total map control should instead of being limited by a slowed res flow, be rewarded by near inf res to crush the competition. In the aliens case there is nothing like 4 Onos, 2 Lerks, 1 Fade, and 1 Gorge in MS to end a game no matter what is going on.
With the introduction of Exo you will see the Arc train end game almost become invulnerable. Feature complete seems to flip the script of NS1. It is the aliens who need to crush the marines fast or lose to overwhelming tech in end game.
The game should not be balanced around competitive play. Most of the people that play will be public games. I also think you are wrong, and I love the idea of reduced rez nodes, it would allow for more comebacks with smart teams and better streamline the whole game. But these are just my opinions on a game I will be playing for fun and not in clan matches.
Edit:
What I mean is that the vast majority of new players will not be playing in a clan match they will be playing in pugs. I think it would be a better business decision to have a more pug friendly rule set for the base game. Competitive matches could mod their games to have whatever the league rules determine are more balanced for competitive play. Most new gamers are going to run into a issue where there is spam and late game doesn't work cleanly because there is nothing left to research.
I really believe that Necro's idea is a way to make the game run more smoothly through a pug match and would create a lot more variety in what is considered important locations on the map. It would also allow for map makers to create maps that are more similar to RTS's where you see each side take their nodes until they are fighting for the ones right next to each other and/or dropping the main base. Right now the node in the main starting area is still worth the same at the end of the game when one side is trapped in their base and that just doesn't feel right to me.