Power Node
Death_by_bullets
Join Date: 2004-03-14 Member: 27336Members
Join Date: 2004-03-14 Member: 27336Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Something has to change</div>I've noticed a few games where the aliens send some small units to attack the power node, or in some instances, gorges have been able to vantage point bile bomb it and easily destroy it. To me, the power node is too important of structure to just be so vulnerable. I'm not concerned about defending one or two (Because I know how to use mines, turrets, ect) but when everything you have relies on them it is difficult to defend. And I think that if a power node goes down, it shouldn't immediately drop the power of structures. Because of the immediate power loss, a game can completely change in the alien favor in a matter of seconds (even is some games where marines have been doing better than Aliens).
I think that instead, when a power node goes it, it should have a small period where structures begin to power down, but don't immediately turn off. Maybe after about 10 or 15 seconds or so. This would give you time as a commander to react and prevent you from losing territory or base so easily.
Power nodes are key to holding Marine territory and because they are so easily destroyed they need to have some balance. Aliens only need to cyst things up and until the marines get flames, doesn't really make a difference because cysts can be grown so easily. I think that if there were a power node 'cooldown' or whatever to allow structures to function for a small time after a node goes down, then there would be more territory balance.
My $.02
I think that instead, when a power node goes it, it should have a small period where structures begin to power down, but don't immediately turn off. Maybe after about 10 or 15 seconds or so. This would give you time as a commander to react and prevent you from losing territory or base so easily.
Power nodes are key to holding Marine territory and because they are so easily destroyed they need to have some balance. Aliens only need to cyst things up and until the marines get flames, doesn't really make a difference because cysts can be grown so easily. I think that if there were a power node 'cooldown' or whatever to allow structures to function for a small time after a node goes down, then there would be more territory balance.
My $.02
Comments
I'm not sure whether the powernode is that much of a problem in the current games, though. Yes, during assaults the powernode is a point of focus. Yet the marines can counter an attack on it by firing a few grenades in its direction, clearing out any skulks. Add the mines and sentries you already mentioned and I think it's quite defendable.
Lets first wait and see how it balances out when the game is feature complete and the final balancing phase starts, before jumping to conclusions.
But I'm still uncertain on whether or not I like the whole powernode idea.
But then that's not really a game flaw as it is more of a commander fail, right.
I meant it as "they're so inconsequential currently that no one even bothers with them, marine or alien" so the OP is kind of completely wrong and this suggestion is silly IMO.
Sorry misread what you wrote, thought you were talking about the power pack suggestion.
But back to Power Nodes, I disagree that no one even bothers w/ them as you say. Most games I've played, the power node was usually focused upon being taken out first. But usually it's either Gorges or Onos's attacking them because they can take them down faster. On quick games w/ skulks rushings, I will agree that skulks usually ignore the PN.
Power nodes health, build time, etc. were changed a lot during the beta and always brought problems, in the current state they can mainly be ignored once built. This is probably for the best, as they have minimal negative impact on the game. The thing is power nodes are bad game play wise, you don't want to make them more relevant. I'll link some thread when I have time.
Personally I would prefer if they we just directly linked to the resnode in the area. So build the resnode -> powernode is on, destroy the resnode -> powernode goes off. I thought for a while if powernodes should cost res, but I think this is the better/more convenient solution.
Personally I would prefer if they we just directly linked to the resnode in the area. So build the resnode -> powernode is on, destroy the resnode -> powernode goes off. I thought for a while if powernodes should cost res, but I think this is the better/more convenient solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds like a good way to simplify the game. Although it would eliminate the possibility of Marines securing a room (with Phase Gate or Sentries) prior to building a Harvester. I imagine Power Nodes would continue to exist in rooms without resource nodes, to power them.
I thought that's why power-packs were implemented in the game?!
Ive seen plenty of games be decided by the powernode, considering it is one structure that can disable a whole marine base for 15+ seconds as well as render the lightning way more alien friendly.
<!--quoteo(post=1951592:date=Jul 14 2012, 07:59 PM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ Jul 14 2012, 07:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really like the idea of RTs controlling lighting/power status in rooms. Given that res nodes are highly contested throughout games, this change will really let the lighting system shine (instead of being an occasional 'thing'). In fact, it actually buffs ninja Phase Gates since the unbuilt Power Node won't pop up and ruin the surprise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a good idea, power nodes have always felt extraneous and tacked on to me.
They are free for marines to rebuild, aliens have no incentive to destroy them, infact they are a time sink for aliens to destroy, and they leave you vulnerable when you are chomping them down because you are usually a sitting duck facing a wall.
1) Regions that are under the control of power nodes are defined by a box in the map. There is all kind of problems at the boundary of two boxes, because it is unclear which power node is powering the area, if any. This also constrain severely map design, phase gate placement and creativity in general
This is a fundamental problem with power nodes, and cannot be solved without changing completely the way they work.
2) Power nodes accumulate a lot of different function. Light switch, turret factory and "win button" in marine base, etc. These different functions require mutually exclusive balance; for example to work well as a turret factory (being able to disable turrets in a turret spammed area) the power node need to have relatively low hp. But then the "win button" in marine base become problematic.
Worse, some of the functions are bad. A weak point in turret spamed area is desirable but the utility of a win button in marine base is disputable, and power nodes close to RTs are useless at best.
A solution is to split the power node in their different function. Droppable lights by the commander, power packs as turret factory, big red win button in marine base, etc. So they can be balanced separately.
I'm not saying that the map should start dark, but in terms of function, it just doesn't make sense to have powernodes that don't serve any purpose.
What about rooms/hallways without res nodes?
Also, I've always thought that this would be a good use for structure energy. Structure regen energy whenever they are powered, loss energy when unpowered, and are disabled once they finally run out of power. This would give a bit of a buffer where marine structures still work for a limited amount of time after the powernode is destroyed, and can be tailored such that certain structures continue to work for longer than others (i.e. I would give sentries/robo/arms lab a shorter time than PGs, armories, or IPs).
Also, I've always thought that this would be a good use for structure energy. Structure regen energy whenever they are powered, loss energy when unpowered, and are disabled once they finally run out of power. This would give a bit of a buffer where marine structures still work for a limited amount of time after the powernode is destroyed, and can be tailored such that certain structures continue to work for longer than others (i.e. I would give sentries/robo/arms lab a shorter time than PGs, armories, or IPs).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are several alternatives:
1) As mentioned, allow Power Nodes to remain in rooms/hallways w/o res nodes (e.g. Tram hub)
2) Extend power grid to encompass hallways from nearby res nodes
3) Res Node power grids unchanged, require Power Packs for hallways
Option 1 lets us test the theory without altering maps too much (except in res node rooms). However, as long as unbuilt Power Nodes continue to pop up when a ghost structure is placed, ninja tactics aren't as viable as they could be.
Option 2 lets us explore the possibility of overlapping power grids. For example, by removing Glass Hallway power node, it could be changed so Reactor & Data Core res nodes both provide power (Crossroad seems too far). As long as Marines can hold either room RTs, they still have power. This goes back to the original Power Grid idea where Tech Points/Res Nodes support adjacent rooms' power.
Option 3 is a simplification of the power system in previous beta builds. No more power nodes, but outside of res node rooms, Power Packs are needed (might need to tweak power pack cost/HP/# of buildings powered, etc).
As for the structure energy idea, I've always thought it should be tested. It could be a mirror mechanic to Maturity, of sorts, but not exactly the same. Would structures start out with 0% until built?
This is a fundamental problem with power nodes, and cannot be solved without changing completely the way they work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this is a problem them I guess highlighting the areas of the map to show which is powered by a power-point should help.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) A solution is to split the power node in their different function. Droppable lights by the commander, power packs as turret factory, big red win button in marine base, etc. So they can be balanced separately.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would help balancing, but I can't see that happen at this stage of the game. But I agree that that power-node being the weak-spot of a marine-base can be a real problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1952002:date=Jul 16 2012, 01:20 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jul 16 2012, 01:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about rooms/hallways without res nodes?
Also, I've always thought that this would be a good use for structure energy. Structure regen energy whenever they are powered, loss energy when unpowered, and are disabled once they finally run out of power. This would give a bit of a buffer where marine structures still work for a limited amount of time after the powernode is destroyed, and can be tailored such that certain structures continue to work for longer than others (i.e. I would give sentries/robo/arms lab a shorter time than PGs, armories, or IPs).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haven't really thought about the case that there are power-nodes without rts nearby. I think in those few cases a rt could power 2 nodes maybe ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Edit: PsiWarp was faster and actually has some ideas.
Yeah but it still limits phase gate placement and creativity.
<i>"I'm a the mapper, here I draw a rectangle to show you where you need to build your stuff!"</i>
The fact you need to provide this kind of help shows you something is wrong in the first place.
This is a fundamental problem with power nodes, and cannot be solved without changing completely the way they work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I think this is the easier one to solve. If you could connect several location entities to the same powernode (rather than the current system where only the powernode within the location entity connects), then you could make much more complex powered volumes without the unnecessary overlap.
Honestly I see this whole bit a minor issue in the game. It doesn't really make sense for Power Nodes to work as they do, but when compared to the lack of function of Clogs or the imbalance of teams or lifeforms.. its not that big a deal imo, and fixing it likely wont fix any major issues.
Perhaps they can use some more balancing - sure, that might well be. I don't really see the need for it right now. Lets see how the other aspects of the game work out first.
As for removing them, or changing RT's into the powernodes and any suggestions along that line; It's good that you try to come up with solutions, but I'm pretty sure powernodes are here to stay. 100% sure they won't be removed pre 1.0. As for post 1.0, anything can happen, but from what I read in Charlie's earlier design notes (years back), he's very fond of them as well.
EDIT: A TL;DR: If you think they're not OK now, try thinking of some changes that don't remove them, but <b>would</b> balance them better/make them more useful.
As for tactics, it subtracts from the game. It forces me to build in certain locations simply because of power rather than more interesting variables like proximity and geometry. I can no longer decide between a room that is close to an important location or one that is easily defensible because I need to build where there is power. The "win-button" element is only barely tactical - it exists to end games not to add tactical variety. In fact, charging the power in marine-start is far less strategically interesting than choosing between IPs, Proto, Arms Lab etc.
At the end of the day, I have to ask: If powernodes are here to stay because Charlie is so fond of them, why have they been marginalised to such an extent?
Having said that I agree with Tweadle that their uses seem to be rather marginalised. Once build they usually get ignored.
I also don't feel that tieing rts to powernodes is the same as removing them. It basically removes the extra building/killing chore and in return we would see their effect a lot more often again.