<!--quoteo(post=1948132:date=Jul 1 2012, 02:58 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 1 2012, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948132"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I get where you're going with this Misternubs, and i've come to this conclusion before many times in my own head.. but then i always remember that lifeforms are supposed to fill this role. I.e. whereas marines get armor and weapons, aliens get lifeforms which are supposed to equal said tier levels as well as Alien upgrades and alien abilities (i.e. blink, BB etc) which obviously are the "bonus" to this to ensure that it scales better than vanilla life forms as the game goes on..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought marine weapons + jetpacks/exo = alien lifeforms + abilities?
-Both unlock with tres, then players purchase with pres -Progression through both has a clear upgrade path but also involves situational tradeoffs meaning the team makes a strategic choice about which path to research first
The marine weapon/armor upgrade system is like an overlay on that system that makes marines scale in general effectiveness as the game progresses (provided they have the tres to spend), regardless of which strategic choices they've made in which weapons and equipment research path they take.
I get that you're saying that something like an Onos should basically be the equivalent of a JP marine with a GL and weapons/armor level 2 or 3 - that the alien lifeform progression is supposed to account for the marines slow scaling both from pres-purchased technology and from arms lab upgrades.
The problem is that under that system the earlier alien lifeforms are unavoidably useless late game, as they have to be balanced against an early game marine strength of weapons/armor level 0/1. A rifle marine isn't as useless late game, as they've scaled with arms lab upgrades.
An alternative is to be slightly more symmetrical:
- Both sides have a flavour/strategy choice about what to unlock and in what order. This is tres unlock/pres purchase. For marines this is weapons and other tech like JP/exo. For aliens it is lifeforms/abilities and upgrade chambers and the abilities they provide.
- Both sides have a general upgrade system that increases their effectiveness with time + tres. For marines this is arms lab upgrades, for aliens it is....?
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2012
The current carapace gives a much too large bonus to armor. Skulks with 50 armor and lerks with 100 armor is ridiculous.
Relevant crosspost:
<!--quoteo(post=1948857:date=Jul 4 2012, 01:40 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 4 2012, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's pretty much how defense chambers worked in NS1, and it worked great. Defense chambers had the most universally powerful upgrades, but the movement and sensory chambers had much more powerful abilities. That helped balance the chambers to the point where they were all equally "good" during NS1 version 3.2 (although movement chamber was the most common starting chamber because it was the easiest to use efficiently on all maps).
That was a much better way to balance the chambers than the current attempts at giving the defense chamber upgrades "downsides".
I don't understand why the devs keep trying to reinvent the wheel, instead of using the lessons learnt during 8 years of iterative NS1 updates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The chamber abilties in NS1 were:
(1) Defense chamber: Passive health regeneration field. (2) Movement chamber: Passive energy regeneration field and player activated self-teleportation to hives. (3) Sensory chamber: Passive cloaking field for structures and players, and passive "hive sight"/"scent of fear" field.
The abilities and upgrades don't need to be the same as they were in NS1, but the principle remains: If one chamber has very powerful upgrades, you balance it by giving the other chambers comparatively more powerful abilities.
I also want to just throw this out there: The motion blur effect inferred by celerity in NS2 is unbelievably obnoxious, to the point where I sometimes don't even evolve it even though it is available and I have free upgrade slots.
Thanks Shad3r. You've managed to put it better than I in a cleaner form.
<i>- Both sides have a general upgrade system that increases their effectiveness with time + tres. For marines this is arms lab upgrades, for aliens it is....? </i>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Both sides have a general upgrade system that increases their effectiveness with time + tres. For marines this is arms lab upgrades, for aliens it is....?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 to this.
Also, B214 - a comeback for aliens is almost impossible once marines have JP and have killed the second hive since skulks no longer have leap... might as well have given JPers god mode or ended the game right away.
<!--quoteo(post=1949100:date=Jul 5 2012, 12:52 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jul 5 2012, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949100"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks Shad3r. You've managed to put it better than I in a cleaner form.
<i>- Both sides have a general upgrade system that increases their effectiveness with time + tres. For marines this is arms lab upgrades, for aliens it is....? </i>
Ostensibly, the answer is tier 2/3 abilities such as leap or umbra. Whether or not the two systems actually maintain balance throughout the game is debatable though.
<!--quoteo(post=1951438:date=Jul 13 2012, 07:00 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Jul 13 2012, 07:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951438"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ostensibly, the answer is tier 2/3 abilities such as leap or umbra. Whether or not the two systems actually maintain balance throughout the game is debatable though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens' tier abilities can no longer be compared to armor/weapon upgrades when jet packs are now officially the equivalent of the tech point requirement system. <i> Blink is now equal to jet packs.</i> What is now missing is what do fades get that is comparable to marines' armor and weapon upgrades.
Carapace doesn't cut it late game and the slow causes major problems with some lifeforms, and there are no ability that increases damage currently (ns1 had focus).
<!--quoteo(post=1951451:date=Jul 13 2012, 09:02 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jul 13 2012, 09:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens' tier abilities can no longer be compared to armor/weapon upgrades when jet packs are now officially the equivalent of the tech point requirement system. <i> Blink is now equal to jet packs.</i> What is now missing is what do fades get that is comparable to marines' armor and weapon upgrades.
Carapace doesn't cut it late game and the slow causes major problems with some lifeforms, and there are no ability that increases damage currently (ns1 had focus).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The discussion here is parity between the free units on both sides. In that context, weapon/armor (and motion tracking for that matter) are the equivalent of leap, xenocide, and chamber upgrades (now that the are free again).
Skulks are pretty usefull now with cara, regen and adrenalin. I often do kill more JPs as a skulk than as a fade, because i dont care if i die as a skulk but i often have to retreat as a fade without landing the final hit. Expecially in siege situation, where the marines have an armory, it makes a big difference that u can be greedy as a skulk but u cant be greedy as a fade.
<!--quoteo(post=1951537:date=Jul 14 2012, 10:18 AM:name=Kasperle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kasperle @ Jul 14 2012, 10:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks are pretty usefull now with cara, regen and adrenalin. I often do kill more JPs as a skulk than as a fade, because i dont care if i die as a skulk but i often have to retreat as a fade without landing the final hit. Expecially in siege situation, where the marines have an armory, it makes a big difference that u can be greedy as a skulk but u cant be greedy as a fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's still problematic that the skulk can die through one grenade and i don't know what to do about it. It's not like a standard marine can die through one attack and the grenade is also a ranged "ability". And we still have the no res while dead problem. The skulk is encouraged to risk a lot and even use xenocide but doing this will result in staying longer as a skulk and lengthen the time required to be able to become a higher lifeform.
<!--quoteo(post=1951531:date=Jul 14 2012, 11:39 AM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Jul 14 2012, 11:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The discussion here is parity between the free units on both sides. In that context, weapon/armor (and motion tracking for that matter) are the equivalent of leap, xenocide, and chamber upgrades (now that the are free again).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's obvious. Free units means that late game marines > late game skulks.
<!--quoteo(post=1951550:date=Jul 14 2012, 07:26 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 14 2012, 07:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's still problematic that the skulk can die through one grenade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grenades (when not a direct-hit) should do nearly no damage to life forms or they will be spammed. Spammed on team mates, spammed on ARCs, spammed on choke-points. It is just to easy to use them as area-denial (a job, that would fit the flamethrower way better) and this without the slightest bit of skill.
So why do they actually do so much damage to lifeforms? If you want to make them viable against an onos, keep the full-damage on direct hits. Skillful players could still use them against other life forms if they can hit, but they would be less annoying.
<!--quoteo(post=1951764:date=Jul 16 2012, 06:49 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jul 16 2012, 06:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951764"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's obvious. Free units means that late game marines > late game skulks.
Marines scale better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not only is this a complete fallacy but the opposite is true.
<u><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Absolute Power scaling</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u> Assume evolving an alien upgrade is essentially free (1 pres is inconsequential and cara is generally taken anyway) <img src="http://i.imgur.com/ABuls.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> So we see that skulks actually <b>scale better</b> than marines with an INCREASE in the bullet to bite ratio from 3 to 3.5. Speed loss of cara is negligible due to leap (0 pres), and this is only taking into account leap and cara. When we factor in all other alien upgrades we see that the general trend is that skulks actually scale better than marines when talking about absolute points of early and late game.
<u><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Res cost scaling</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u> The next question which is equally important is how much res does each team require to reach their respective minimum 'late game point'? If you had bothered to do the math you would realise that alien's have the advantage here as well with cara leap being 1.4:1. <img src="http://i.imgur.com/HVmtF.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Ever since cara was buffed to 50, this thread needed to die. When its reduced back to a normal value like 30 this topic could have interesting discussion.
<!--quoteo(post=1951996:date=Jul 16 2012, 10:59 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jul 16 2012, 10:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not only is this a complete fallacy but the opposite is true.
Ever since cara was buffed to 50, this thread needed to die. When its reduced back to a normal value like 30 this topic could have interesting discussion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your post is to theory based. You completely left medpack and nano shield out of your calculation. Also that the marines spawn with their upgrades other than the aliens.
One of the arguments was that the standard LMG scales better than the skulk. The topic afaik created before 212 so the carapace buff wasn't live. But it wasn't the only argument. The skulk can die through 1 grenade, the marine can't. Aliens spawn obviously as a skulk can therefore way easier be spawn killed than marines. The aliens can't pick up anything of died comrades therefor they need more res than the marines to be more viable in combat again. So the aliens need to stay longer in their default lifeform than the marines. Which is even more penalized by the fact that you don't get res while dead.
This are just some things i wrote down within 5min while eating my diner. You see this thread still needs to stay alive.
<!--quoteo(post=1951997:date=Jul 17 2012, 03:25 AM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 17 2012, 03:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951997"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your post is to theory based. You completely left medpack and nano shield out of your calculation. Also that the marines spawn with their upgrades other than the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Medpack and nano are available in both early and late game. The issue is <b>scaling</b> and as such these are irrelevant. So is the need to evolve the upgrades as alien. The whole issue of spawn camping is a problem with the egg system and a design decision that requires you to spend time evolving upgrades. It is entirely unrelated to skulk power scaling.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The skulk can die through 1 grenade, the marine can't. ... The aliens can't pick up anything of died comrades therefor they need more res than the marines to be more viable in combat again. So the aliens need to stay longer in their default lifeform than the marines. Which is even more penalized by the fact that you don't get res while dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-Typhon+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The discussion here is parity between the free units on both sides. In that context, weapon/armor (and motion tracking for that matter) are the equivalent of leap, xenocide, and chamber upgrades (now that the are free again).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-Misternubs+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Misternubs)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's obvious. Free units means that late game marines > late game skulks. Marines scale better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>Free units</b>
This isn't just a 'theoretical arguement'. This is an ingame parity limitation on the level you need to consider when designing a game that will be played by many people with many different skill levels.
Well this maybe your opinion but there are a lot of other people here which have a other opinion to this. Nothing you said changes my mind that the marines profit way more of their upgrades than the alien and makes the default marine more useful in the late game than the skulk.
Since upgrades doesn't cost the player anything, why not have the player spawn with pre-selected upgrades (the upgrades the player had at death or those picked during the spawn countdown). Since Skulks die a lot and more so during the late game and there are more upgrades at late game, this change would benefit Skulks. It would also make it less tedious to play as Skulk...
<!--quoteo(post=1951996:date=Jul 16 2012, 12:59 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jul 16 2012, 12:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not only is this a complete fallacy but the opposite is true.
<u><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Absolute Power scaling</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u> Assume evolving an alien upgrade is essentially free (1 pres is inconsequential and cara is generally taken anyway)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1 res is not free, and 3 res (assuming 3 hives vs teched up marines) is DEFINITELY not free. also upgrades after cara have a significantly lesser effect on skulk survivability so assuming a linear increase with each 1 res spent by a skulk is a fallacy.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><img src="http://i.imgur.com/ABuls.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> So we see that skulks actually <b>scale better</b> than marines with an INCREASE in the bullet to bite ratio from 3 to 3.5. Speed loss of cara is negligible due to leap (0 pres), and this is only taking into account leap and cara. When we factor in all other alien upgrades we see that the general trend is that skulks actually scale better than marines when talking about absolute points of early and late game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> not true at all. we all know that hit registration gets increasingly worse as the speed of the lifeform increases, therefore you must account for the extra hits registered on slower skulks. Also, lowering the speed lowers the skill level required for marines to track skulks, which means skulks will soak more shots per encounter on average against the same players. how are you going to quantify that? Also I like how you ignored that cara is generally available at/before the point weapons get a1/w1, in which skulks take a whopping 16 bullets to kill, but by the time marines get w3, it goes down to 14. oh yeah. uncara'd skulk vs w3 marine? 7 bullets to kill. that's 1.75 bullets/bite.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Res cost scaling</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u> The next question which is equally important is how much res does each team require to reach their respective minimum 'late game point'? If you had bothered to do the math you would realise that alien's have the advantage here as well with cara leap being 1.4:1. <img src="http://i.imgur.com/HVmtF.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Ever since cara was buffed to 50, this thread needed to die. When its reduced back to a normal value like 30 this topic could have interesting discussion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the problem with cara being buffed to 50 is that skulks become very powerful vs t1/t2 marines, then slowly fade back into not-very-useful vs t3. maybe this is intended behavior, idk, but it seems like this railroads cara into being 1st choice. also, once marines get jetpacks, it's very easy for marines to fly into the hive and snipe upgrade chambers.
<!--quoteo(post=1952035:date=Jul 17 2012, 09:02 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jul 17 2012, 09:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952035"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Absolutely, largely agree with you except that leap and celerity negate cara speed loss, and hit reg isn't exactly something that should be a determining factor in 'balance' discussions. The game either has reliable enough hit reg that it's no longer something you balance around, or it has horribly unreliable hit reg such that no-one bothers playing anyway.
I think you've misunderstood me and my approach to the problem though. Yes, relative skulk power spikes early-mid and levels out in the end (agree this is a big problem but not related to skulk late game scaling!). I was specifically addressing misternubs point that 'marines scale better than skulks' in the context of absolute skulk late game usefullness. All you need to do to evaluate this is take a sample of the very beginning and the very end to see that overall, skulks scale better.
You could very well skew it by taking a high point of cara (16 bullets) as the beginning point and conclude that skulks scale worse than marines as a result. What this does however is implicitly assume that cara is not a scaling factor in and of itself - which i think it is. Again, yes the timings of relative power do not increase linearly, nor does every additional upgrade evolved (i didn't make this assumption, only left it open to interpretation past cara/leap), but at the end of the day skulks are relatively better than marines compared to game start.
In regard to the upgrades costing 1pres, well, you need to start somewhere realistic when trying to compare scaling of free units and i didn't think it was as disruptive as factoring in 20res+ weapons! We could very well define 'free units' strictly and come to the conclusion that skulks scale horrendously compared to marines, but this isn't exactly very practical nor very helpful when thinking about the issue. I guess you could try to compare skulk vs marine scaling and factor in relative pres outlays but it would imo be overly complex with probably not much difference in the conclusion.
*edit* blah, i hadn't realised personal upgrades are back to 0 pres so the whole assumption was unnecessary anyway lol ><.
<!--quoteo(post=1952039:date=Jul 16 2012, 07:54 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jul 16 2012, 07:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*edit* blah, i hadn't realised personal upgrades are back to 0 pres so the whole assumption was unnecessary anyway lol ><.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ohwhat, they are? wtf. well, ok i guess?
Comments
I thought marine weapons + jetpacks/exo = alien lifeforms + abilities?
-Both unlock with tres, then players purchase with pres
-Progression through both has a clear upgrade path but also involves situational tradeoffs meaning the team makes a strategic choice about which path to research first
The marine weapon/armor upgrade system is like an overlay on that system that makes marines scale in general effectiveness as the game progresses (provided they have the tres to spend), regardless of which strategic choices they've made in which weapons and equipment research path they take.
I get that you're saying that something like an Onos should basically be the equivalent of a JP marine with a GL and weapons/armor level 2 or 3 - that the alien lifeform progression is supposed to account for the marines slow scaling both from pres-purchased technology and from arms lab upgrades.
The problem is that under that system the earlier alien lifeforms are unavoidably useless late game, as they have to be balanced against an early game marine strength of weapons/armor level 0/1. A rifle marine isn't as useless late game, as they've scaled with arms lab upgrades.
An alternative is to be slightly more symmetrical:
- Both sides have a flavour/strategy choice about what to unlock and in what order. This is tres unlock/pres purchase. For marines this is weapons and other tech like JP/exo. For aliens it is lifeforms/abilities and upgrade chambers and the abilities they provide.
- Both sides have a general upgrade system that increases their effectiveness with time + tres. For marines this is arms lab upgrades, for aliens it is....?
Relevant crosspost:
<!--quoteo(post=1948857:date=Jul 4 2012, 01:40 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 4 2012, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's pretty much how defense chambers worked in NS1, and it worked great. Defense chambers had the most universally powerful upgrades, but the movement and sensory chambers had much more powerful abilities. That helped balance the chambers to the point where they were all equally "good" during NS1 version 3.2 (although movement chamber was the most common starting chamber because it was the easiest to use efficiently on all maps).
That was a much better way to balance the chambers than the current attempts at giving the defense chamber upgrades "downsides".
I don't understand why the devs keep trying to reinvent the wheel, instead of using the lessons learnt during 8 years of iterative NS1 updates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The chamber abilties in NS1 were:
(1) Defense chamber: Passive health regeneration field.
(2) Movement chamber: Passive energy regeneration field and player activated self-teleportation to hives.
(3) Sensory chamber: Passive cloaking field for structures and players, and passive "hive sight"/"scent of fear" field.
The abilities and upgrades don't need to be the same as they were in NS1, but the principle remains: If one chamber has very powerful upgrades, you balance it by giving the other chambers comparatively more powerful abilities.
I also want to just throw this out there: The motion blur effect inferred by celerity in NS2 is unbelievably obnoxious, to the point where I sometimes don't even evolve it even though it is available and I have free upgrade slots.
<i>- Both sides have a general upgrade system that increases their effectiveness with time + tres. For marines this is arms lab upgrades, for aliens it is....? </i>
Exactly this.
+1 to this.
Also, B214 - a comeback for aliens is almost impossible once marines have JP and have killed the second hive since skulks no longer have leap... might as well have given JPers god mode or ended the game right away.
<i>- Both sides have a general upgrade system that increases their effectiveness with time + tres. For marines this is arms lab upgrades, for aliens it is....? </i>
Exactly this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ostensibly, the answer is tier 2/3 abilities such as leap or umbra. Whether or not the two systems actually maintain balance throughout the game is debatable though.
Aliens' tier abilities can no longer be compared to armor/weapon upgrades when jet packs are now officially the equivalent of the tech point requirement system.
<i>
Blink is now equal to jet packs.</i> What is now missing is what do fades get that is comparable to marines' armor and weapon upgrades.
Carapace doesn't cut it late game and the slow causes major problems with some lifeforms, and there are no ability that increases damage currently (ns1 had focus).
<i>
Blink is now equal to jet packs.</i> What is now missing is what do fades get that is comparable to marines' armor and weapon upgrades.
Carapace doesn't cut it late game and the slow causes major problems with some lifeforms, and there are no ability that increases damage currently (ns1 had focus).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The discussion here is parity between the free units on both sides. In that context, weapon/armor (and motion tracking for that matter) are the equivalent of leap, xenocide, and chamber upgrades (now that the are free again).
It's still problematic that the skulk can die through one grenade and i don't know what to do about it. It's not like a standard marine can die through one attack and the grenade is also a ranged "ability". And we still have the no res while dead problem. The skulk is encouraged to risk a lot and even use xenocide but doing this will result in staying longer as a skulk and lengthen the time required to be able to become a higher lifeform.
It's obvious. Free units means that late game marines > late game skulks.
Marines scale better.
Grenades (when not a direct-hit) should do nearly no damage to life forms or they will be spammed. Spammed on team mates, spammed on ARCs, spammed on choke-points. It is just to easy to use them as area-denial (a job, that would fit the flamethrower way better) and this without the slightest bit of skill.
So why do they actually do so much damage to lifeforms? If you want to make them viable against an onos, keep the full-damage on direct hits. Skillful players could still use them against other life forms if they can hit, but they would be less annoying.
Marines scale better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not only is this a complete fallacy but the opposite is true.
<u><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Absolute Power scaling</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u>
Assume evolving an alien upgrade is essentially free (1 pres is inconsequential and cara is generally taken anyway)
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/ABuls.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
So we see that skulks actually <b>scale better</b> than marines with an INCREASE in the bullet to bite ratio from 3 to 3.5. Speed loss of cara is negligible due to leap (0 pres), and this is only taking into account leap and cara. When we factor in all other alien upgrades we see that the general trend is that skulks actually scale better than marines when talking about absolute points of early and late game.
<u><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Res cost scaling</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u>
The next question which is equally important is how much res does each team require to reach their respective minimum 'late game point'? If you had bothered to do the math you would realise that alien's have the advantage here as well with cara leap being 1.4:1.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/HVmtF.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Ever since cara was buffed to 50, this thread needed to die. When its reduced back to a normal value like 30 this topic could have interesting discussion.
Ever since cara was buffed to 50, this thread needed to die. When its reduced back to a normal value like 30 this topic could have interesting discussion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your post is to theory based. You completely left medpack and nano shield out of your calculation. Also that the marines spawn with their upgrades other than the aliens.
One of the arguments was that the standard LMG scales better than the skulk. The topic afaik created before 212 so the carapace buff wasn't live. But it wasn't the only argument. The skulk can die through 1 grenade, the marine can't. Aliens spawn obviously as a skulk can therefore way easier be spawn killed than marines.
The aliens can't pick up anything of died comrades therefor they need more res than the marines to be more viable in combat again. So the aliens need to stay longer in their default lifeform than the marines. Which is even more penalized by the fact that you don't get res while dead.
This are just some things i wrote down within 5min while eating my diner. You see this thread still needs to stay alive.
Medpack and nano are available in both early and late game. The issue is <b>scaling</b> and as such these are irrelevant. So is the need to evolve the upgrades as alien. The whole issue of spawn camping is a problem with the egg system and a design decision that requires you to spend time evolving upgrades. It is entirely unrelated to skulk power scaling.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The skulk can die through 1 grenade, the marine can't.
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The aliens can't pick up anything of died comrades therefor they need more res than the marines to be more viable in combat again. So the aliens need to stay longer in their default lifeform than the marines. Which is even more penalized by the fact that you don't get res while dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Typhon+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The discussion here is parity between the free units on both sides. In that context, weapon/armor (and motion tracking for that matter) are the equivalent of leap, xenocide, and chamber upgrades (now that the are free again).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Misternubs+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Misternubs)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's obvious. Free units means that late game marines > late game skulks.
Marines scale better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Free units</b>
This isn't just a 'theoretical arguement'. This is an ingame parity limitation on the level you need to consider when designing a game that will be played by many people with many different skill levels.
<u><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Absolute Power scaling</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u>
Assume evolving an alien upgrade is essentially free (1 pres is inconsequential and cara is generally taken anyway)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1 res is not free, and 3 res (assuming 3 hives vs teched up marines) is DEFINITELY not free. also upgrades after cara have a significantly lesser effect on skulk survivability so assuming a linear increase with each 1 res spent by a skulk is a fallacy.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><img src="http://i.imgur.com/ABuls.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
So we see that skulks actually <b>scale better</b> than marines with an INCREASE in the bullet to bite ratio from 3 to 3.5. Speed loss of cara is negligible due to leap (0 pres), and this is only taking into account leap and cara. When we factor in all other alien upgrades we see that the general trend is that skulks actually scale better than marines when talking about absolute points of early and late game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not true at all. we all know that hit registration gets increasingly worse as the speed of the lifeform increases, therefore you must account for the extra hits registered on slower skulks. Also, lowering the speed lowers the skill level required for marines to track skulks, which means skulks will soak more shots per encounter on average against the same players. how are you going to quantify that? Also I like how you ignored that cara is generally available at/before the point weapons get a1/w1, in which skulks take a whopping 16 bullets to kill, but by the time marines get w3, it goes down to 14. oh yeah. uncara'd skulk vs w3 marine? 7 bullets to kill. that's 1.75 bullets/bite.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Res cost scaling</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u>
The next question which is equally important is how much res does each team require to reach their respective minimum 'late game point'? If you had bothered to do the math you would realise that alien's have the advantage here as well with cara leap being 1.4:1.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/HVmtF.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Ever since cara was buffed to 50, this thread needed to die. When its reduced back to a normal value like 30 this topic could have interesting discussion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the problem with cara being buffed to 50 is that skulks become very powerful vs t1/t2 marines, then slowly fade back into not-very-useful vs t3. maybe this is intended behavior, idk, but it seems like this railroads cara into being 1st choice. also, once marines get jetpacks, it's very easy for marines to fly into the hive and snipe upgrade chambers.
Absolutely, largely agree with you except that leap and celerity negate cara speed loss, and hit reg isn't exactly something that should be a determining factor in 'balance' discussions. The game either has reliable enough hit reg that it's no longer something you balance around, or it has horribly unreliable hit reg such that no-one bothers playing anyway.
I think you've misunderstood me and my approach to the problem though. Yes, relative skulk power spikes early-mid and levels out in the end (agree this is a big problem but not related to skulk late game scaling!). I was specifically addressing misternubs point that 'marines scale better than skulks' in the context of absolute skulk late game usefullness. All you need to do to evaluate this is take a sample of the very beginning and the very end to see that overall, skulks scale better.
You could very well skew it by taking a high point of cara (16 bullets) as the beginning point and conclude that skulks scale worse than marines as a result. What this does however is implicitly assume that cara is not a scaling factor in and of itself - which i think it is. Again, yes the timings of relative power do not increase linearly, nor does every additional upgrade evolved (i didn't make this assumption, only left it open to interpretation past cara/leap), but at the end of the day skulks are relatively better than marines compared to game start.
In regard to the upgrades costing 1pres, well, you need to start somewhere realistic when trying to compare scaling of free units and i didn't think it was as disruptive as factoring in 20res+ weapons! We could very well define 'free units' strictly and come to the conclusion that skulks scale horrendously compared to marines, but this isn't exactly very practical nor very helpful when thinking about the issue. I guess you could try to compare skulk vs marine scaling and factor in relative pres outlays but it would imo be overly complex with probably not much difference in the conclusion.
*edit* blah, i hadn't realised personal upgrades are back to 0 pres so the whole assumption was unnecessary anyway lol ><.
ohwhat, they are? wtf. well, ok i guess?
<!--quoteo(post=1952042:date=Jul 17 2012, 02:34 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jul 17 2012, 02:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ohwhat, they are? wtf. well, ok i guess?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol. :b
Play the game too sometimes, sillies. :3