<!--quoteo(post=1951025:date=Jul 12 2012, 01:02 PM:name={GGs} Chicken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ({GGs} Chicken @ Jul 12 2012, 01:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951025"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh my god yes. Hitreg is absolutely terrible this build(more than usual), moreso with the shotgun, but even with LMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yup, several times have i put 3 shotgun blasts into a skulk without the kill.
<!--quoteo(post=1950946:date=Jul 12 2012, 08:43 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 12 2012, 08:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950946"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe I'm just bad at wall jump but I was only able to get up to maybe 9-9.5 if I did everything right. The maps are already poorly setup for it geometry wise, it just seems like it takes 2 full rooms just to achieve a mere 1-2 speed increase and if you mess up or get unlucky once and hit some wonky geometry you lose all speed. Wall jumping seems as dead as it's ever been, but again maybe I'm just bad.
Wall jump seems overly punishing to vanilla skulk and hugely rewarding to leap skulk. I feel it should be the other way around..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
walljumping was kinda OP in 210 (i think? maybe 209) but i thought the mechanics were perfect. i think it was just the top speed that was too high? i used to wall jump all the time and ever since 212 i dont even bother really, it's more of a habit now than thinking "if i walljump i'll have some kind of advantage." it's now too cumbersome of a system for the insignificant advantage you're getting. you'll waste more time getting to good geometry to jump off of than just running straight to wherever you need to go.
<!--quoteo(post=1951028:date=Jul 12 2012, 01:14 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 12 2012, 01:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951028"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now what other movement-mechanic _does_ work using just the floor... hmmm...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1951004:date=Jul 12 2012, 09:38 AM:name=Shaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shaker @ Jul 12 2012, 09:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951004"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you play against any decent to good player they will literally never die with feign death as a fade. You can just spam shift/blink and as soon as you pop out of feign, youre out of the room. Its a nice upgrade for a gorge that isn't game-breaking, but they aren't exactly a marine slaughtering nearly unkillable alien like a fade that can retreat in a second. As a skulk you can use those 3-4 seconds to actually walk, invincible, up to a person or structure and spam bite, immediately damaging them when you come out - I don't really think this is how its supposed to work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah after playing a few games where aliens were spamming Feint I can see what you mean. If you know what exit they are probably going for and a timed shotty shot or LMG fire can easily gib them. But if they have somewhere safe to retreat to like a lame wall or something they can quickly LoS on they will never die.
On one side that is kind of lame, but on the other if they nerf feint much more I think it would be worthless. I think Regen timer should not kick in until after the Feint effect wears off also (I think it starts ticking when your in feint currently?). Only other nerf I can think of is to have the upgrade have a "spin up" time before it activates. I.e. once you hit 15% hp or w/e it is the Feint effect takes .5 or 1 second to kick in, maybe they can up the HP% at which it kicks in. So that if you're factanking a lot of damage you will die before Feint kicks in. I think that is how Redemption worked in NS1..? I would say Fade is the only one that has this problem though due to blink..
edit: also you have to realize that Feint upgrade takes the place of regen or celerity or adrenaline, that's a decent sacrifice and personally I would never choose Feint over any of those. In abortion games where aliens have 3-4 hives it can be kinda dumb, yes, but in mid game or early late game where Alien don't have a Crag/whip base around every corner I think it's a tradeoff.
<!--quoteo(post=1951032:date=Jul 12 2012, 01:28 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 12 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah after playing a few games where aliens were spamming Feint I can see what you mean. If you know what exit they are probably going for and a timed shotty shot or LMG fire can easily gib them. But if they have somewhere safe to retreat to like a lame wall or something they can quickly LoS on they will never die.
On one side that is kind of lame, but on the other if they nerf feint much more I think it would be worthless. I think Regen timer should not kick in until after the Feint effect wears off also (I think it starts ticking when your in feint currently?). Only other nerf I can think of is to have the upgrade have a "spin up" time before it activates. I.e. once you hit 15% hp or w/e it is the Feint effect takes .5 or 1 second to kick in, maybe they can up the HP% at which it kicks in. So that if you're factanking a lot of damage you will die before Feint kicks in. I think that is how Redemption worked in NS1..? I would say Fade is the only one that has this problem though due to blink..
edit: also you have to realize that Feint upgrade takes the place of regen or celerity or adrenaline, that's a decent sacrifice and personally I would never choose Feint over any of those. In abortion games where aliens have 3-4 hives it can be kinda dumb, yes, but in mid game or early late game where Alien don't have a Crag/whip base around every corner I think it's a tradeoff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Totally agree with you. I like the idea of it being similar to redemption, where a heavy chunk of damage can actually skip the feign's ability and kill them. It does add an interesting mechanic to the game. Like someone commented in games last night, it was really cool to hear all the team chatter "IS IT DEAD??" and how reward it is to snipe the retreating alien by guessing their escape route correctly.
<!--quoteo(post=1951033:date=Jul 12 2012, 12:39 PM:name=Shaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shaker @ Jul 12 2012, 12:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951033"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Totally agree with you. I like the idea of it being similar to redemption, where a heavy chunk of damage can actually skip the feign's ability and kill them. It does add an interesting mechanic to the game. Like someone commented in games last night, it was really cool to hear all the team chatter "IS IT DEAD??" and how reward it is to snipe the retreating alien by guessing their escape route correctly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nobody liked Redemption in NS1 exactly because of this mechanic - it sucks to use an upgrade slot on it and then always be rolling the dice as to whether or not it's actually going to do anything.
<!--quoteo(post=1951035:date=Jul 12 2012, 01:43 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jul 12 2012, 01:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951035"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nobody liked Redemption in NS1 exactly because of this mechanic - it sucks to use an upgrade slot on it and then always be rolling the dice as to whether or not it's actually going to do anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, it wasn't one I would have preferred. The current version is completely on the other end of the scale, though, where it is 100% and can pretty much make you immortal unless you make a drastically stupid mistake. I think we need a middle ground.
Cloak is hopelessly bugged, when aliens are moving they become covered with green splotches the colour of the death animation (the corpse decay). They actually become EASIER to see than regular aliens.
Also phase gates continue working as long as the model is in the game, even with no power or when the PG is dead.
<!--quoteo(post=1950986:date=Jul 12 2012, 10:49 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 12 2012, 10:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950986"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro--><b>-</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->Prototype lab takes nearly as long as a Hive to heal up (but has only half the HP of one), was that a bug? I like the idea of the change but I feel like it's just too much time to sit there and weld. :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait, wait, wait, WHAT? Are you seriously implying that the Hive only has 2x more health than the protolab, one of the weakest marine buildings? If so, WHAT THE ######!?!?!?!
On that note, It does not seem fair to me that aliens loose all their tier 2 abilities when they loose the 2nd hive (abilities that they need to fight JPs) while marines can still buy JPs if they've bought the PL and upgraded them even if they loose their second chair. Makes games in which you get pushed down to 1 hive extremely frustrating and feel very cheap.
aliens are again way stronger, aliens already got upperhand and now its even worse.
I dont mind to die, but when I hit lvl 3 shotgun in a face of fade twice and does not die its kinda frustrating, while you die in 1 or 2 hits of fade, there fast, hard to hit and when you hit them hard they just wont die.
Lerks, whel speed buff for them is nice, armore is weaker dunno know its enough, 2 hard hits with shotty and still flew away, but might be my aim, gues need more luck on hitting them.
Overal I kinda like the idea more stuff going to be tied to hive 2 and 3 same with Marines. this brings back early mid and end game so far avalible.
Though would like to see this for entire game for both sides.
aliens upgrades should be 3 tech lvled, carapace lvl 1 with 1 hive lvl 2 with 2 hives ect ect. Forms 1 hive skulks gorge and lerk, second hive fade (there very powerfull if you ask me) 3 hive a onos, kinda fear fade more then onos.
Marines. Weapon and lvl upgrades 1 lvl per CC, 1 CC lvl 1, 2 CC lvl 2 ect ect. Weapons 1 CC just current basic armory, when have 2 CC upgrade to advance armory and protolab with JP, 3 CC, upgrade for JP and exo.
Why would this be beter?
Frist you can balance early game, both side got tier 1 tech and easy to balance, same for tier 2 and 3, game would be more intresting in team play and protection of what you got, losing a hive/CC or possible hive CC location will cripple your advancement in getting beter, preventing other team and gain your self would boost you cripple enemy, this way both team need to work more together, because it will hurt you if you lose second hive or CC not only in weapons and life form also your tier lvl will be lowerd.
end game, strongest team will have it easier, they might be 1 or 2 tier lvls higher, it will end the endless missery of turtling ######, one with last hive or CC standing will be max tier 1 and will get hard time get out of it, other team will be easier to finish it off.
Also could work with Defenses, turrets and hydra, whips ect. Tier 1 will be prety useless like now, if get second hive or CC turrets ect ect will have increase health, range, reaction, accuracy and damage, this will give them also a perpose of defense back, you cant defend all sides with just people and ofc should not able to stop a attacking horde, but should make them harder to breach as team get stronger.
I think this would make game fun in all three phases of the game and if balanced all right on each tier then its just matter of who is beter, wich commander makes the right choise, what team worked beter together.
<!--quoteo(post=1951045:date=Jul 12 2012, 11:56 AM:name=Security)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Security @ Jul 12 2012, 11:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why is it that the changelog is always missing a lot of important changes?
For example:
- Leap now requires 2 Hives - Healing Bed and Bacterial Receptors have been removed
(On by default? Completely removed? Whats going on? :P)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, this has been going on for a while now. The changelogs will have about 50 items, but missing some of the biggest changes. O_o
<!--quoteo(post=1951040:date=Jul 12 2012, 12:15 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Jul 12 2012, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait, wait, wait, WHAT? Are you seriously implying that the Hive only has 2x more health than the protolab, one of the weakest marine buildings? If so, WHAT THE ######!?!?!?!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was changed this patch- Proto now has 3.2k HP and 400 armor (compare to 4khp 750 armor on newborn hive - 6k hp / 1.4k armor mature)
Jeez, just tested it. To fully heal a proto lab you must sit there and left click for <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->164 seconds<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> (2min 44s). Compare to <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=119271&view=findpost&p=1949004" target="_blank">gorge healing</a> a hive to full: <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->148 seconds <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> (2min 28s). It actually takes <b>LONGER</b> to heal the proto than it does to heal a hive. Both are extremely boring gameplay UWE. :/
I believe hit detection with Fades is weird now also. It's like sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
I used to be able to scare a Fade off with 2 full hits with a shotgun with his blink onto me and then again if makes another run at me. Now he just doesn't give a crap and keeps coming at me for the finish even with successive shots after the first 2.
Sometimes partial hits I admit but client side I'm seeing at least 3 full weps3 rounds into Fades sometimes without them even really giving two craps. They either finish me or escape without issue. I know it's an issue to be improved in time with performance of the server to client communication on that.. but it was actually bearable last build to fight Fades on the ground with shotguns.. now it feels like I can't even scare them with a point blank shot. Reminds me of the Fade reveal video ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1951057:date=Jul 12 2012, 03:46 PM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Jul 12 2012, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951057"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe hit detection with Fades is weird now also. It's like sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
I used to be able to scare a Fade off with 2 full hits with a shotgun with his blink onto me and then again if makes another run at me. Now he just doesn't give a crap and keeps coming at me for the finish even with successive shots after the first 2.
Sometimes partial hits I admit but client side I'm seeing at least 3 full weps3 rounds into Fades sometimes without them even really giving two craps. They either finish me or escape without issue. I know it's an issue to be improved in time with performance of the server to client communication on that.. but it was actually bearable last build to fight Fades on the ground with shotguns.. now it feels like I can't even scare them with a point blank shot. Reminds me of the Fade reveal video ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the entire game. The hitreg problems are insane at high speeds. I'd guesstimate that 25 - 50% of your hits just disappear at speeds over 10 (base skulk is ~7, lerk is now 13, fade blink is usually 20+). I tested this for a while with rantology on a private server. It was 1v1, we both had 10-15 ping and 70+ FPS. The server was a constant 30 tickrates. Basically, it was the max server and client performance possible. I turned on "hitreg" via the console and we tested shotgun vs skulk, vs lerk, etc. For this patch we tried out shotgun vs fade blink. On an average hit on her blink that wasn't directly at or away from me, I'd hit 2-3 pellets that counted (red lines via hitreg command) and 2-3 that should have counted but didn't (blue lines). It was exceptionally bad with sudden movements. The fade blink is so fast that if you shoot right after your opponent strafes, you can have entire volleys show up as blue lines (ie hit on your client, but didn't count on the server).
Yea hit detection is still pretty meh but last build i would almost always oneshot skulks without carapace. This build that same skulk can take 2 or 3 shots, and fades are even wierder. Something changed this build that caused the detection to be worse than previously.
Also the whole blue/red/yellow line thing with hitreg I am not completely sure that blue means a miss that should have hit, i think it just means there is a mismatch (client/server information differs)
<!--quoteo(post=1951070:date=Jul 12 2012, 04:20 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jul 12 2012, 04:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951070"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yea hit detection is still pretty meh but last build i would almost always oneshot skulks without carapace. This build that same skulk can take 2 or 3 shots, and fades are even wierder. Something changed this build that caused the detection to be worse than previously.
Also the whole blue/red/yellow line thing with hitreg I am not completely sure that blue means a miss that should have hit, i think it just means there is a mismatch (client/server information differs)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't had a chance to play this build much, so I can't really comment on it yet.
I think you're right, but that's what I'm talking about when I say a hit that should have counted. On my screen, it was a hit. When you shoot with hitreg on, it takes a snapshot of your target at the moment you fire. You'll frequently see blue lines intersecting with the model of that snapshot. Other times you'll see blue lines missing the snapshot's model completely. You see these discrepancies much, much more when a) speeds increase and b) movement becomes erratic.
Free hydras are worse than ever since medpacks and ammos cost tres. Before killing hydra was useless now it's really bad for the team economy.
<i>Never attack hydras.</i>
<b>Stuff that prevent your screen to display the game</b>
Played a game against shade tech, damn that's annoying, fight against cloaked everything + ink cloud + lerk spore + low health blur + image distortion. And if you manage to kill a skulk he's not even dead because of feint.
<i>Please turn off your screen and save the planet.</i>
<!--quoteo(post=1951045:date=Jul 12 2012, 11:56 AM:name=Security)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Security @ Jul 12 2012, 11:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why is it that the changelog is always missing a lot of important changes?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is not automatic. We have to remember to add something to the change log when we check in. So we mess up.
Also, sometimes we are changing something just as a temporary test and then it ends up going into the patch and enough time has passed that we forget it wasn't in the previous patch. We would rather focus on the game than having a perfect change log honestly.
It is just a bunch of humans doing it, so there are mistakes. Look at all those things we remembered to put into the change log :D Pretty neat.
Think of it like a "Where's Waldo?" for video game changes maybe?
<!--quoteo(post=1951052:date=Jul 12 2012, 03:35 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 12 2012, 03:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951052"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It actually takes <b>LONGER</b> to heal the proto than it does to heal a hive. Both are extremely boring gameplay<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Definitely need a button lock setting so we can at least let go of the mouse while we're healing.
I don't like the new build. The balance seems to be off, especially in the late game.
Carapace became pretty useless as first hive. You are as "fast" as a turtle if you pick carapace and get killed to easy. Leap which would help (212 made cara/leap very strong) comes in way to late in my eyes for a ability that has to be used with the starting alien lifeform. Jetpack is as strong as it was in 212 and arrives at nearly the same time. It became a bit easier to fight them as skulk but it still sucks that every marine has always a jetpack on his back. It's just impossible to defend a hive with a lot space around it against several jetpackers. Atrium or Warehouse is just horrible. Requiring the 2nd CC for it did buff the marines in my eyes, since nearly no marine comm did set up a 2nd CC. Now the hive locations are way better defended and are way more difficult to take by the aliens. They also can use the obs at the 2nd CC way more effective, if the comms did place it in previous builds it was only used for motion tracking, but now there's always a beacon ready. Is there any reason why healing bed has been removed? It is really expensive to place everywhere crags if you want to provide basic healing. The onos is still as useless as in previous builds, it can only be used if you attack a base with several aliens at once. If i compare it to a flamethrower jetpacker which cost even less than half of a onos but is way more effective as a onos i make a sad face. He still can't escape from a jetpacker, who paid 10pres to be able to kill a onos easily... The phasegate knockback which has been in for a while is really nasty, i agree with it that it is cool when you are standing in front of the phasegate but on side it just feels wrong and makes it way to easy to defend bases without having to be there. You can phase nearly save through and kill whoever is there. It also feels like the alien spawnrate decreased even more with 214. I just spend 15 sec death before a timer showed up though we had way than more enough eggs.
If the aliens "allow" the marines to reach mid game they have pretty much lost already.
I really hope you are hiding something from us for the aliens. Aliens already have a nearly non existent late game, and marines will receive the exo skeleton... And i really hope that we will see the comeback of the acid rocket or something similar. It's just plane stupid that marines can stick together and shoot everything that comes in sight and aliens have nearly nothing to counter them, or at least nothing that is as easy to use as the marines ranged combat.
Sorry if i sound like i'm raging or i just blame you and say everything sucks, but seeing how easy it is currently as a marine once you reach mid game and how difficult it is as aliens and marines are still missing their teeth... I like the improved performance, the improved alien gui, i like feint though i feel it could become op. I like that marines now actually need to advance and can't bunker this much anymore.
@MurphyIdiot I don't want to sound like a smart ass but don't you have a to do list what to next? I'm a Game developer myself, when i have to fix bugs i have them in the mantis bugtracker where i set them to resolved once they are fixed. And if we are working on new stuff i have a task in a different program.
<!--quoteo(post=1951107:date=Jul 12 2012, 03:09 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 12 2012, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't want to sound like a smart ass but don't you have a to do list what to next? I'm a Game developer myself, when i have to fix bugs i have them in the mantis bugtracker where i set them to resolved once they are fixed. And if we are working on new stuff i have a task in a different program.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have many to do lists. We use Mantis for bug reports. But many of the bugs we fix are "in between" bugs. The bugs aren't in the current Steam release so it wouldn't make sense to put them in the change log.
And for things like features or optimization, we sometimes forget to mark it as in the change log when we submit to SVN or it is something we aren't sure will go into the next Steam release.
the new build is awesome for public games right now. Havent played gathers yet though. I never went for shade hive but managed to win almost every round with crag hive. As soon as all the marines figure out how to notice feign death on their HUD-minimap (u can even see them moving while "dead"), it wont be used anymore :D . Second shift hive seems to be a must have as long as u dont have a good mapcontrol. Skulks and Fades with adrenalin are so more effective. Thats the reason, why i never go shade hive first. It totally messes up your higher lifeforms, when u play an even match.
One thing though... in my opinion the shadowstep should cost some energy. Fades are hard to kill, which is fine but it is just emberassing when u survived several attacks as a marine and the fade can still retreat easily afterall. I experienced encounters that lastet over a minute, fade blinking shadowsteping all the time with several attempts to hit and me emptying several SG-Clips. In the end, the fade had no problems to retreat. Its like a loose loose situation, no gain for either side in that situations. It did happen more than once.
Shadowstep costing no energy at all is slightly overpowered, because a skilled fade will use that ability to avoid deadly shots while regarging their energy for the retreat or next few attacks. Their are like a cold fusion reactor, i swear !
Lerk and skulk with carapace still very hard to kill with the lmg...This new carapace is just ridiculous (50 armor for a skulk oO), i think the lmg need to be up. I prefer see the old walljump back without this carapace for the skulk.. now the game in marine side is "if u want kill something buy a shotgun !"
I always stand by that this game blows BF3 out of the water by a longshot, but playing a few games against the new fades showed me that, yes, <b>hit reg absolutely needs work</b>. Counter-Strike Source had a similar problem early on, and if I recall, they finagled some sort of fix by making the hitbox snap to the player model to count a hit when there should have been a hit. Before that, the player model would lag behind the actual hitbox, and that seems to be what's happening here.
I appreciate the change that fades take full damage while blinking, but unless we can actually hit them, it doesn't mean much. I think all the balancing work you guys are doing makes sense, but fixing the hit reg may completely change the way the game is played versus fast-moving targets, and thus would also change what needs to be balanced. I think that should come first, and then balance should come after.
EDIT: This also works for aliens. Against jetpackers, with proper hit reg, balancing measures would be a LOT different.
Just wanted to post that i like the new Alien Vision changes. I think it is a step in the right direction.
AV has changed to a tool that is used to target marines at a distance or in the dark, rather than up-close combat. However if you do use it in combat, you cannot spam attacks, which i find to be a challenging/satisfying mechanic. Some people are still try to toggle it on and off in combat hoping the old AV will come back. I don't agree with AV on 24/7, but I can't fault these players either since AV was first introduced with no tradeoffs more than a year ago. That is a long time to default to it, and get used to fighting with it on. I wonder when in combat, if people play with AV off for a month, will they become better players in general?
<!--quoteo(post=1951549:date=Jul 14 2012, 10:24 AM:name=Kiai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiai @ Jul 14 2012, 10:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951549"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just wanted to post that i like the new Alien Vision changes. I think it is a step in the right direction.
AV has changed to a tool that is used to target marines at a distance or in the dark, rather than up-close combat. However if you do use it in combat, you cannot spam attacks, which i find to be a challenging/satisfying mechanic. Some people are still try to toggle it on and off in combat hoping the old AV will come back. I don't agree with AV on 24/7, but I can't fault these players either since AV was first introduced with no tradeoffs more than a year ago. That is a long time to default to it, and get used to fighting with it on. I wonder when in combat, if people play with AV off for a month, will they become better players in general?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->It's been a lot longer than that if we're counting NS1, which happily lived with it's alien flashlight for years, so I'm a bit bugged yes.
And no, honestly I don't think they'll be better, they'll either be worse or the same accounting for normal gains from practice, it's simply easier to track with AV. Playing without it you'll either adjust to tracking without and play the same or play worse.
This also makes playing lerk worse since they're now blinding themselves or screwing themselves out of much needed adrenaline just to see through the still obscuring spores. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Hey, good job for pushing out the builds at a decent pace guys, it's really starting to shape up! I have however, one major complaint that I need to get out of my system: the hit registration is just awful. I have the impression that at the start of the beta it was near impossible to shoot a skulk, then it became easier, and now it has become very hard again. Skulks are warping all over the place when they run toward you, and shots that are on target on my end (showing blood coming from the skulk) don't seem to register at all. Combined with the skinny skulk model and dark skin you need to have superior FPS skills to even stand a chance. It's not welcoming for new players, and frustrating for experienced players.
I realize that writing good netcode is hard, and deciding to write your own engine means you have to deal with this challenge. But <b>please</b> improve the hit registration and netcode of the game! I want this game to succeed, and this part of the game really needs some love.
Comments
yup, several times have i put 3 shotgun blasts into a skulk without the kill.
Wall jump seems overly punishing to vanilla skulk and hugely rewarding to leap skulk. I feel it should be the other way around..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
walljumping was kinda OP in 210 (i think? maybe 209) but i thought the mechanics were perfect. i think it was just the top speed that was too high? i used to wall jump all the time and ever since 212 i dont even bother really, it's more of a habit now than thinking "if i walljump i'll have some kind of advantage." it's now too cumbersome of a system for the insignificant advantage you're getting. you'll waste more time getting to good geometry to jump off of than just running straight to wherever you need to go.
time to nerf bellyslide.
Yeah after playing a few games where aliens were spamming Feint I can see what you mean. If you know what exit they are probably going for and a timed shotty shot or LMG fire can easily gib them. But if they have somewhere safe to retreat to like a lame wall or something they can quickly LoS on they will never die.
On one side that is kind of lame, but on the other if they nerf feint much more I think it would be worthless. I think Regen timer should not kick in until after the Feint effect wears off also (I think it starts ticking when your in feint currently?). Only other nerf I can think of is to have the upgrade have a "spin up" time before it activates. I.e. once you hit 15% hp or w/e it is the Feint effect takes .5 or 1 second to kick in, maybe they can up the HP% at which it kicks in. So that if you're factanking a lot of damage you will die before Feint kicks in. I think that is how Redemption worked in NS1..? I would say Fade is the only one that has this problem though due to blink..
edit: also you have to realize that Feint upgrade takes the place of regen or celerity or adrenaline, that's a decent sacrifice and personally I would never choose Feint over any of those. In abortion games where aliens have 3-4 hives it can be kinda dumb, yes, but in mid game or early late game where Alien don't have a Crag/whip base around every corner I think it's a tradeoff.
On one side that is kind of lame, but on the other if they nerf feint much more I think it would be worthless. I think Regen timer should not kick in until after the Feint effect wears off also (I think it starts ticking when your in feint currently?). Only other nerf I can think of is to have the upgrade have a "spin up" time before it activates. I.e. once you hit 15% hp or w/e it is the Feint effect takes .5 or 1 second to kick in, maybe they can up the HP% at which it kicks in. So that if you're factanking a lot of damage you will die before Feint kicks in. I think that is how Redemption worked in NS1..? I would say Fade is the only one that has this problem though due to blink..
edit: also you have to realize that Feint upgrade takes the place of regen or celerity or adrenaline, that's a decent sacrifice and personally I would never choose Feint over any of those. In abortion games where aliens have 3-4 hives it can be kinda dumb, yes, but in mid game or early late game where Alien don't have a Crag/whip base around every corner I think it's a tradeoff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Totally agree with you. I like the idea of it being similar to redemption, where a heavy chunk of damage can actually skip the feign's ability and kill them. It does add an interesting mechanic to the game. Like someone commented in games last night, it was really cool to hear all the team chatter "IS IT DEAD??" and how reward it is to snipe the retreating alien by guessing their escape route correctly.
Nobody liked Redemption in NS1 exactly because of this mechanic - it sucks to use an upgrade slot on it and then always be rolling the dice as to whether or not it's actually going to do anything.
True, it wasn't one I would have preferred. The current version is completely on the other end of the scale, though, where it is 100% and can pretty much make you immortal unless you make a drastically stupid mistake. I think we need a middle ground.
Also phase gates continue working as long as the model is in the game, even with no power or when the PG is dead.
<!--quoteo(post=1950986:date=Jul 12 2012, 10:49 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 12 2012, 10:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950986"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro--><b>-</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->Prototype lab takes nearly as long as a Hive to heal up (but has only half the HP of one), was that a bug? I like the idea of the change but I feel like it's just too much time to sit there and weld. :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait, wait, wait, WHAT? Are you seriously implying that the Hive only has 2x more health than the protolab, one of the weakest marine buildings? If so, WHAT THE ######!?!?!?!
On that note, It does not seem fair to me that aliens loose all their tier 2 abilities when they loose the 2nd hive (abilities that they need to fight JPs) while marines can still buy JPs if they've bought the PL and upgraded them even if they loose their second chair. Makes games in which you get pushed down to 1 hive extremely frustrating and feel very cheap.
For example:
- Leap now requires 2 Hives
- Healing Bed and Bacterial Receptors have been removed
(On by default? Completely removed? Whats going on? :P)
I dont mind to die, but when I hit lvl 3 shotgun in a face of fade twice and does not die its kinda frustrating, while you die in 1 or 2 hits of fade, there fast, hard to hit and when you hit them hard they just wont die.
Lerks, whel speed buff for them is nice, armore is weaker dunno know its enough, 2 hard hits with shotty and still flew away, but might be my aim, gues need more luck on hitting them.
Overal I kinda like the idea more stuff going to be tied to hive 2 and 3 same with Marines. this brings back early mid and end game so far avalible.
Though would like to see this for entire game for both sides.
aliens upgrades should be 3 tech lvled, carapace lvl 1 with 1 hive lvl 2 with 2 hives ect ect.
Forms 1 hive skulks gorge and lerk, second hive fade (there very powerfull if you ask me) 3 hive a onos, kinda fear fade more then onos.
Marines.
Weapon and lvl upgrades 1 lvl per CC, 1 CC lvl 1, 2 CC lvl 2 ect ect.
Weapons 1 CC just current basic armory, when have 2 CC upgrade to advance armory and protolab with JP, 3 CC, upgrade for JP and exo.
Why would this be beter?
Frist you can balance early game, both side got tier 1 tech and easy to balance, same for tier 2 and 3, game would be more intresting in team play and protection of what you got, losing a hive/CC or possible hive CC location will cripple your advancement in getting beter, preventing other team and gain your self would boost you cripple enemy, this way both team need to work more together, because it will hurt you if you lose second hive or CC not only in weapons and life form also your tier lvl will be lowerd.
end game, strongest team will have it easier, they might be 1 or 2 tier lvls higher, it will end the endless missery of turtling ######, one with last hive or CC standing will be max tier 1 and will get hard time get out of it, other team will be easier to finish it off.
Also could work with Defenses, turrets and hydra, whips ect.
Tier 1 will be prety useless like now, if get second hive or CC turrets ect ect will have increase health, range, reaction, accuracy and damage, this will give them also a perpose of defense back, you cant defend all sides with just people and ofc should not able to stop a attacking horde, but should make them harder to breach as team get stronger.
I think this would make game fun in all three phases of the game and if balanced all right on each tier then its just matter of who is beter, wich commander makes the right choise, what team worked beter together.
just my idea, not that anyone will agree or care.
For example:
- Leap now requires 2 Hives
- Healing Bed and Bacterial Receptors have been removed
(On by default? Completely removed? Whats going on? :P)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, this has been going on for a while now. The changelogs will have about 50 items, but missing some of the biggest changes. O_o
It was changed this patch- Proto now has 3.2k HP and 400 armor (compare to 4khp 750 armor on newborn hive - 6k hp / 1.4k armor mature)
Jeez, just tested it. To fully heal a proto lab you must sit there and left click for <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->164 seconds<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> (2min 44s). Compare to <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=119271&view=findpost&p=1949004" target="_blank">gorge healing</a> a hive to full: <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->148 seconds <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> (2min 28s). It actually takes <b>LONGER</b> to heal the proto than it does to heal a hive. Both are extremely boring gameplay UWE. :/
I used to be able to scare a Fade off with 2 full hits with a shotgun with his blink onto me and then again if makes another run at me. Now he just doesn't give a crap and keeps coming at me for the finish even with successive shots after the first 2.
Sometimes partial hits I admit but client side I'm seeing at least 3 full weps3 rounds into Fades sometimes without them even really giving two craps. They either finish me or escape without issue. I know it's an issue to be improved in time with performance of the server to client communication on that.. but it was actually bearable last build to fight Fades on the ground with shotguns.. now it feels like I can't even scare them with a point blank shot. Reminds me of the Fade reveal video ;)
I used to be able to scare a Fade off with 2 full hits with a shotgun with his blink onto me and then again if makes another run at me. Now he just doesn't give a crap and keeps coming at me for the finish even with successive shots after the first 2.
Sometimes partial hits I admit but client side I'm seeing at least 3 full weps3 rounds into Fades sometimes without them even really giving two craps. They either finish me or escape without issue. I know it's an issue to be improved in time with performance of the server to client communication on that.. but it was actually bearable last build to fight Fades on the ground with shotguns.. now it feels like I can't even scare them with a point blank shot. Reminds me of the Fade reveal video ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the entire game. The hitreg problems are insane at high speeds. I'd guesstimate that 25 - 50% of your hits just disappear at speeds over 10 (base skulk is ~7, lerk is now 13, fade blink is usually 20+). I tested this for a while with rantology on a private server. It was 1v1, we both had 10-15 ping and 70+ FPS. The server was a constant 30 tickrates. Basically, it was the max server and client performance possible. I turned on "hitreg" via the console and we tested shotgun vs skulk, vs lerk, etc. For this patch we tried out shotgun vs fade blink. On an average hit on her blink that wasn't directly at or away from me, I'd hit 2-3 pellets that counted (red lines via hitreg command) and 2-3 that should have counted but didn't (blue lines). It was exceptionally bad with sudden movements. The fade blink is so fast that if you shoot right after your opponent strafes, you can have entire volleys show up as blue lines (ie hit on your client, but didn't count on the server).
Also the whole blue/red/yellow line thing with hitreg I am not completely sure that blue means a miss that should have hit, i think it just means there is a mismatch (client/server information differs)
Also the whole blue/red/yellow line thing with hitreg I am not completely sure that blue means a miss that should have hit, i think it just means there is a mismatch (client/server information differs)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't had a chance to play this build much, so I can't really comment on it yet.
I think you're right, but that's what I'm talking about when I say a hit that should have counted. On my screen, it was a hit. When you shoot with hitreg on, it takes a snapshot of your target at the moment you fire. You'll frequently see blue lines intersecting with the model of that snapshot. Other times you'll see blue lines missing the snapshot's model completely. You see these discrepancies much, much more when a) speeds increase and b) movement becomes erratic.
Free hydras are worse than ever since medpacks and ammos cost tres. Before killing hydra was useless now it's really bad for the team economy.
<i>Never attack hydras.</i>
<b>Stuff that prevent your screen to display the game</b>
Played a game against shade tech, damn that's annoying, fight against cloaked everything + ink cloud + lerk spore + low health blur + image distortion. And if you manage to kill a skulk he's not even dead because of feint.
<i>Please turn off your screen and save the planet.</i>
It is not automatic. We have to remember to add something to the change log when we check in. So we mess up.
Also, sometimes we are changing something just as a temporary test and then it ends up going into the patch and enough time has passed that we forget it wasn't in the previous patch. We would rather focus on the game than having a perfect change log honestly.
It is just a bunch of humans doing it, so there are mistakes. Look at all those things we remembered to put into the change log :D Pretty neat.
Think of it like a "Where's Waldo?" for video game changes maybe?
Definitely need a button lock setting so we can at least let go of the mouse while we're healing.
Carapace became pretty useless as first hive. You are as "fast" as a turtle if you pick carapace and get killed to easy. Leap which would help (212 made cara/leap very strong) comes in way to late in my eyes for a ability that has to be used with the starting alien lifeform. Jetpack is as strong as it was in 212 and arrives at nearly the same time. It became a bit easier to fight them as skulk but it still sucks that every marine has always a jetpack on his back. It's just impossible to defend a hive with a lot space around it against several jetpackers. Atrium or Warehouse is just horrible.
Requiring the 2nd CC for it did buff the marines in my eyes, since nearly no marine comm did set up a 2nd CC. Now the hive locations are way better defended and are way more difficult to take by the aliens. They also can use the obs at the 2nd CC way more effective, if the comms did place it in previous builds it was only used for motion tracking, but now there's always a beacon ready.
Is there any reason why healing bed has been removed? It is really expensive to place everywhere crags if you want to provide basic healing.
The onos is still as useless as in previous builds, it can only be used if you attack a base with several aliens at once. If i compare it to a flamethrower jetpacker which cost even less than half of a onos but is way more effective as a onos i make a sad face. He still can't escape from a jetpacker, who paid 10pres to be able to kill a onos easily...
The phasegate knockback which has been in for a while is really nasty, i agree with it that it is cool when you are standing in front of the phasegate but on side it just feels wrong and makes it way to easy to defend bases without having to be there. You can phase nearly save through and kill whoever is there.
It also feels like the alien spawnrate decreased even more with 214. I just spend 15 sec death before a timer showed up though we had way than more enough eggs.
If the aliens "allow" the marines to reach mid game they have pretty much lost already.
I really hope you are hiding something from us for the aliens. Aliens already have a nearly non existent late game, and marines will receive the exo skeleton... And i really hope that we will see the comeback of the acid rocket or something similar. It's just plane stupid that marines can stick together and shoot everything that comes in sight and aliens have nearly nothing to counter them, or at least nothing that is as easy to use as the marines ranged combat.
Sorry if i sound like i'm raging or i just blame you and say everything sucks, but seeing how easy it is currently as a marine once you reach mid game and how difficult it is as aliens and marines are still missing their teeth...
I like the improved performance, the improved alien gui, i like feint though i feel it could become op. I like that marines now actually need to advance and can't bunker this much anymore.
@MurphyIdiot
I don't want to sound like a smart ass but don't you have a to do list what to next? I'm a Game developer myself, when i have to fix bugs i have them in the mantis bugtracker where i set them to resolved once they are fixed. And if we are working on new stuff i have a task in a different program.
We have many to do lists. We use Mantis for bug reports. But many of the bugs we fix are "in between" bugs. The bugs aren't in the current Steam release so it wouldn't make sense to put them in the change log.
And for things like features or optimization, we sometimes forget to mark it as in the change log when we submit to SVN or it is something we aren't sure will go into the next Steam release.
I never went for shade hive but managed to win almost every round with crag hive. As soon as all the marines figure out how to notice feign death on their HUD-minimap (u can even see them moving while "dead"), it wont be used anymore :D .
Second shift hive seems to be a must have as long as u dont have a good mapcontrol. Skulks and Fades with adrenalin are so more effective. Thats the reason, why i never go shade hive first. It totally messes up your higher lifeforms, when u play an even match.
One thing though... in my opinion the shadowstep should cost some energy. Fades are hard to kill, which is fine but it is just emberassing when u survived several attacks as a marine and the fade can still retreat easily afterall. I experienced encounters that lastet over a minute, fade blinking shadowsteping all the time with several attempts to hit and me emptying several SG-Clips. In the end, the fade had no problems to retreat. Its like a loose loose situation, no gain for either side in that situations. It did happen more than once.
Shadowstep costing no energy at all is slightly overpowered, because a skilled fade will use that ability to avoid deadly shots while regarging their energy for the retreat or next few attacks. Their are like a cold fusion reactor, i swear !
My 2 cent
I appreciate the change that fades take full damage while blinking, but unless we can actually hit them, it doesn't mean much. I think all the balancing work you guys are doing makes sense, but fixing the hit reg may completely change the way the game is played versus fast-moving targets, and thus would also change what needs to be balanced. I think that should come first, and then balance should come after.
EDIT: This also works for aliens. Against jetpackers, with proper hit reg, balancing measures would be a LOT different.
AV has changed to a tool that is used to target marines at a distance or in the dark, rather than up-close combat. However if you do use it in combat, you cannot spam attacks, which i find to be a challenging/satisfying mechanic. Some people are still try to toggle it on and off in combat hoping the old AV will come back. I don't agree with AV on 24/7, but I can't fault these players either since AV was first introduced with no tradeoffs more than a year ago. That is a long time to default to it, and get used to fighting with it on. I wonder when in combat, if people play with AV off for a month, will they become better players in general?
AV has changed to a tool that is used to target marines at a distance or in the dark, rather than up-close combat. However if you do use it in combat, you cannot spam attacks, which i find to be a challenging/satisfying mechanic. Some people are still try to toggle it on and off in combat hoping the old AV will come back. I don't agree with AV on 24/7, but I can't fault these players either since AV was first introduced with no tradeoffs more than a year ago. That is a long time to default to it, and get used to fighting with it on. I wonder when in combat, if people play with AV off for a month, will they become better players in general?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->It's been a lot longer than that if we're counting NS1, which happily lived with it's alien flashlight for years, so I'm a bit bugged yes.
And no, honestly I don't think they'll be better, they'll either be worse or the same accounting for normal gains from practice, it's simply easier to track with AV. Playing without it you'll either adjust to tracking without and play the same or play worse.
This also makes playing lerk worse since they're now blinding themselves or screwing themselves out of much needed adrenaline just to see through the still obscuring spores.
<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I realize that writing good netcode is hard, and deciding to write your own engine means you have to deal with this challenge. But <b>please</b> improve the hit registration and netcode of the game! I want this game to succeed, and this part of the game really needs some love.
Just my two cents