To be fair Kola, the lerk now feels alot more like NS1 lerks did, the old NS2 lerk was most certainly overpowered, and although I think the nerf may of been a bit too hard, it was warrented.
<!--quoteo(post=1960494:date=Aug 10 2012, 04:52 PM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Aug 10 2012, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960494"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be fair Kola, the lerk now feels alot more like NS1 lerks did, the old NS2 lerk was most certainly overpowered, and although I think the nerf may of been a bit too hard, it was warrented.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We can easily agree on the fact that they needed a nerf, but the nerf ruined the feel of the lerk. The over powered factor was the infinite spike spam. I think it would be better if the spikes were just increased in cost, rather than having the feel of the lerk ruined. Right now it feels more like it's better suited to wait for spikes, find a hidden place in the action, sit there and shoot spikes away, rather than promoting flight. And I think flight is essential for it.
Concerning lerks: Just don't spam flap. Hold space and glide more. I have no problems with lerking flight-wise currently, this just makes you more mindful of your energy. Though maybe they could consider the flap energy cost down to 2 instead of 3.
But gliding is not what lerk is about, it's flying. A good lerk can take on multiple enemies if he can produce a flight pattern which makes it hard to hit one self, whilst still being able to take a chunk out of the marines. If I play marine and a lerk is merely flying in a straight forward motion, I can be rendered dead within a magazine in the rifle (which it should, because obviously that lerk is not moving well). When I look at a lerk going at marines, the ferocity of which it should happen so equal piranhas (or at least hte illusion of them feasting). The lerk is all about ferocity and speed, not about gliding and easing into it.
<!--quoteo(post=1960504:date=Aug 10 2012, 03:05 PM:name=Kola)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kola @ Aug 10 2012, 03:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But gliding is not what lerk is about, it's flying. A good lerk can take on multiple enemies if he can produce a flight pattern which makes it hard to hit one self, whilst still being able to take a chunk out of the marines. If I play marine and a lerk is merely flying in a straight forward motion, I can be rendered dead within a magazine in the rifle (which it should, because obviously that lerk is not moving well). When I look at a lerk going at marines, the ferocity of which it should happen so equal piranhas (or at least hte illusion of them feasting). The lerk is all about ferocity and speed, not about gliding and easing into it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flight spamming is the result of a poor energy system in NS2, lerks managing their flight energy was the staple of lerk gameplay for nearly 10 years. NS2 does not redefine what a lerk is "all about" due to a few months of poor energy management oversight.
In fact the NS2 glide is still much more effective than the NS1 glide, lerk flying is about knowing when to glide, when to flap and managing your resources while staying afloat, of course when flying costs nothing you are going to get used to a very unbalanced flight system, but It really isn't what the lerk is about.
I agree however that it was a bit too strong of a nerf, and the energy requirement should be reduced a bit.
<!--quoteo(post=1960504:date=Aug 10 2012, 09:05 AM:name=Kola)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kola @ Aug 10 2012, 09:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But gliding is not what lerk is about, it's flying. A good lerk can take on multiple enemies if he can produce a flight pattern which makes it hard to hit one self, whilst still being able to take a chunk out of the marines. If I play marine and a lerk is merely flying in a straight forward motion, I can be rendered dead within a magazine in the rifle (which it should, because obviously that lerk is not moving well). When I look at a lerk going at marines, the ferocity of which it should happen so equal piranhas (or at least hte illusion of them feasting). The lerk is all about ferocity and speed, not about gliding and easing into it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While gliding you can still pancake and do 180 degree turns losing virtually no speed and any speed lost can be gained back in 1-2 flaps. NS2 gliding is VERY forgiving.
<!--quoteo(post=1960455:date=Aug 10 2012, 01:46 PM:name=Angelusz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Aug 10 2012, 01:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960455"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The artifacting is something we encountered in the Playtests as well - it seems to occur only for Nvidia users, so far we've seen it in the 400 and 500 series GPU's. Unfortunately it appears to be rather random at the moment, hence we've yet been unable to reproduce it. Any info you can provide on when it occurs might help.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just to clarify, I have an Nvidia 460GTX and as far as I can tell it's everytime I initially join a server. Once I alt-tab out and back in it never occurs again even on map rotation.
Well...I'm not really sure where to start. I guess I'll just go in list format.
Good: -Hit registration seems to have improved. -It seems to me that adrenaline is no longer basically infinite energy.
Bad: -Aliens have been overly nerfed. Choosing between the 3 types of upgrades seems reasonable but only if energy wasn't messed with. I'm not sure how to balance this--I just know it's broken. -Displaying hives/CCs is really annoying to look at. -Health bars are really redundant.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1960499:date=Aug 10 2012, 07:57 AM:name=Industry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Industry @ Aug 10 2012, 07:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960499"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Concerning lerks: Just don't spam flap. Hold space and glide more. I have no problems with lerking flight-wise currently, this just makes you more mindful of your energy. Though maybe they could consider the flap energy cost down to 2 instead of 3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You arent fighting with spikes often enough then. In order to survive a spike vs marine encounter you have to bob and weave *by flapping* while maintaining aim on the marine.
Also, it can suck to travel through vents with this system. Lerk in ns1 also was able to range spore, so there are some gameplay differences.
No matter what, it just feels like im being penalized for traveling.. like a skulk losing energy for running. If gliding got me everywhere and never stopped and worked in combat, and flapping was something special like "leap" or "blink" then yea ok it'd make sense.. but its not.
Well at 3 energy cost thats still 3 flaps per second... not really sure how that can limit you much TBH, the flap cost works well to reduce spamming flap to get around any kind of slowdowns from poor movement. IMO spikes shouldnt be a weapon used by the lerk to strafe around and kill marines.. its a harrasing class, you should be spiking in cojunction with other aliens attacks. Its the same with bite/spores.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1960534:date=Aug 10 2012, 05:11 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 10 2012, 05:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960534"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well at 3 energy cost thats still 3 flaps per second... not really sure how that can limit you much TBH, the flap cost works well to reduce spamming flap to get around any kind of slowdowns from poor movement. IMO spikes shouldnt be a weapon used by the lerk to strafe around and kill marines.. its a harrasing class, you should be spiking in cojunction with other aliens attacks. Its the same with bite/spores.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree in theory, but this just doesn't work with the current model of rapid-fire spikes. The only way to make the lerk gameplay you're proposing viable, is to make the spikes do burst-damage instead of the current steady-stream-damage (awful term, best I could think of right now). I should add that the current bite/spores are near hard countered by shotguns -- which marines often research within the first few minutes of the game.
I don't think anyone who's played against me will arrest me if I say that I am a very able Lerk player. So what does it say when I then tell you that I currently don't lerk unless the commander asks me very nicely? I already realized in b215 that lerking simply wasn't worth it because hive1 lerks are almost useless against shotguns and by the time you get spikes, you may as well go fade, which is a much more powerful alien class anyway. With the b216 changes to the movement (less agile) and flap costs (in actuality a big spike nerf), I don't see myself returning to the lerk anytime soon.
In this version, provided you're "playing to win" as opposed to "playing for fun", going lerk is the NS2 equivalent of flushing your money down the drain.
- So far our performance stats show a noticeable performance increase in 216. Due to the nature of perf on PC, that of course doesn't mean every single person, but as a general trend. - The Hive/CommandStation health indicator will be shrunk and made to look prettier soon. - The red Hive/CommandStation indicators will be changed to more accurately reflect your team's current knowledge of the existence of that Hive/CommandStation (ie, Cloak). But note that they don't show up until they are sighted by members of your team. I've watched tons of new players struggle with the game and not knowing where to go, that's why these were added (and I think they are working well). - Carapace (on Skulks) will be toned down for 217. - Hive sight and parasite: these are in a half-way state right now. We are redoing how alien sight works now to be much more helpful but in the meantime, Parasite doesn't help you much. Don't worry, this will be fixed shortly. This is how our open development works. - Balance has made a massive swing for the better. Some alien players will complain - all will need to adapt. It is now almost exactly 50/50, which is a HUGE improvement. We are not even close to done with balance though - there will continue to be lots of smaller changes to make sure all the tech in the game is useful and we're seeing massive diversity in play.
<!--quoteo(post=1960557:date=Aug 10 2012, 06:45 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 10 2012, 06:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think anyone who's played against me will arrest me if I say that I am a very able Lerk player. So what does it say when I then tell you that I currently don't lerk unless the commander asks me very nicely? I already realized in b215 that lerking simply wasn't worth it because hive1 lerks are almost useless against shotguns and by the time you get spikes, you may as well go fade, which is a much more powerful alien class anyway. With the b216 changes to the movement (less agile) and flap costs (in actuality a big spike nerf), I don't see myself returning to the lerk anytime soon.
In this version, provided you're "playing to win" as opposed to "playing for fun", going lerk is the NS2 equivalent of flushing your money down the drain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't entirely agree with you. in B215 it was fairly decent to be lerking with 1 hive / carapace. The carapace provided protection from the shotguns if you were unlucky to get a face-first hit, you were, however, still able to actually fight a shotgun (although proper players with great aim would be a pain). Until the marines get armor 2 the bite is still very strong, but it was only so, if you could actually use your movement to counter the power of their weapons.
I think we can all agree that a lerk dies very easily, if actually hit. It's only defense against this is it's rapid movement. When lerks tend to stay alive long (at least medio-core lerks), it's because they do a fly-by with spore, which isn't very effective anyway.
I prefer the lerk being very action minded, and it's amazing capabilities in the early/mid game. In B215 lerk/fade was very situational, but in B216 lerk is hardly every a reasonable choice, just as you say. I still think the problem that needed addressing, was the spike-spam. But instead of tweaking spikes, they made a change that impacts the entire lerk gameplay.
Edit:
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (flayra)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- The red Hive/CommandStation indicators will be changed to more accurately reflect your team's current knowledge of the existence of that Hive/CommandStation (ie, Cloak). But note that they don't show up until they are sighted by members of your team. I've watched tons of new players struggle with the game and not knowing where to go, that's why these were added (and I think they are working well).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think we all appreciate the idea behind it, but I think the problem is much the same as with the progress / health bar. The current style of it is very much interfering with your focus on the stuff ahead of you (what you can actually see on the screen). It needs to be implemented in a way such that it isn't as much a dominating piece of geometry, but a subtle, yet present, piece of information.
It's a directly adressing the learning curve for new players, but the question is if it does anything good for players who actually know the maps? Those who know how to get around, and where things are. Further in competative play, this feature is mostly, if not entirely, useless. I guess it would be worth while to discuss if it's more a 'tutorial' kind a thing, like the hints, and if it should be permanent, or should go away. Maybe it should be a toggle thing, so the experienced people can avoid the mess it makes.
<!--quoteo(post=1960560:date=Aug 10 2012, 11:53 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Aug 10 2012, 11:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960560"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Followup to some of the thoughts in here: - The red Hive/CommandStation indicators will be changed to more accurately reflect your team's current knowledge of the existence of that Hive/CommandStation (ie, Cloak). But note that they don't show up until they are sighted by members of your team. I've watched tons of new players struggle with the game and not knowing where to go, that's why these were added (and I think they are working well).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is always going to be a learning curve with everyone who plays a new game but it's getting pretty rediculous. Please stop dumbing down the game or at least make it an option to turn it off.
Also, it doesn't always help new players. Sometimes this will hurt them because they will see the hive/cc and go straight for that instead of listening to their command to attack/defend other areas that are more important at the moment.
I agree, the red CC/Hive indicator needs to have an option to disable it. It's of absolutely no help when I'm in combat and I have this gigantic red eyesore constantly in my FOV. Otherwise, I'm noticing general performance and hitreg improvements this patch, which I really like. Still get a lot of frame lag late-game where none should occur given my setup, but everything up to that point is much better.
If you plan to keep the idea that MACs can auto-weld Marines, might I suggest that they not collide with them? I died twice to aliens after the MAC blocked me from escaping.
Another big thing is there's a lot of shadow flickering on the world geometry. Might be something to keep in mind for 217.
I had no trouble playing Lerk in the game I was in, Fade felt more balanced, and shotguns felt more viable. I enjoy the lower Cyst health, and the health indicators that come up for a CC or Hive under attack.
<!--quoteo(post=1960565:date=Aug 10 2012, 09:59 AM:name=MiniH0wie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MiniH0wie @ Aug 10 2012, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960565"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is always going to be a learning curve with everyone who plays a new game but it's getting pretty rediculous. Please stop dumbing down the game or at least make it an option to turn it off.
Also, it doesn't always help new players. Sometimes this will hurt them because they will see the hive/cc and go straight for that instead of listening to their command to attack/defend other areas that are more important at the moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see it as dumbing down the game. I've always been an advocate of not appealing to the masses, simply to make a game easier and in the process screwing over your loyal fanbase. It's something I abhor, and don't support at all. They dumbed down my AVP reboot and it left a bitter taste in my mouth.
This doesn't count, imo. All it does is feed information to new players, players who may have not all their bearings when starting a new game like this. Puts them on a more even playing field, when placed alongside more experienced players. Those more experienced players will still have an advantage, but in different, more subtle packets of knowledge. They'll know tips and tricks visual cues can't really teach all that well, and just experience in general. Being able to read your map is not a skill, or at least not one to brag about. Skill comes from other aspects of the game.
It's not as if they added multiple variables that make NS more reliant on chance, rather than skill, a la Call of Duty. Now THAT is a good example of dumbing down a franchise.
The developers aren't making sweeping changes to the game so more players are able to access it....they're just feeding information, that's all. None of these changes drastically alter the game in a negative way.
With that said, the new UI changes are incredibly ugly and I agree...very obtrusive and a cluster######. That's the only real negative. However, I've heard they're only placeholder so whatever. It would also be nice to have a toggle feature for seasoned vets that don't need these visual cues.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1960560:date=Aug 10 2012, 05:53 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Aug 10 2012, 05:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960560"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- The red Hive/CommandStation indicators will be changed to more accurately reflect your team's current knowledge of the existence of that Hive/CommandStation (ie, Cloak). But note that they don't show up until they are sighted by members of your team. I've watched tons of new players struggle with the game and not knowing where to go, that's why these were added (and I think they are working well).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How does the command station/hive indicator help new players with that though? For most of the game, that's not actually where they should be going.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
I'm a bit sad that parasite no longer works on structures. I used this quite a bit and found it very effective in quickly keeping tabs on the extent of marine expansion (i.e. number of RTs, locations of PGs/Armories, whether or not they had an AA). It was also very useful for the comm because parasited structures showed up in the comm view (helping to mitigate some of the lack of FOW/comm vision issues).
I also kind of thought the B215 parasite system was working well (perma-parasite, only removed by armories).
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1960598:date=Aug 10 2012, 06:05 PM:name=spacedaniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spacedaniel @ Aug 10 2012, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->CHARLIE! If the exo is in the next patch I will buy another copy of NS2!! No BS! Gimme gimme gimme! :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The EXO is cancelled in favour of <a href="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Q6aL6jOg2cs/Te9pNEPzUeI/AAAAAAAAAMM/wtBYJ8EN2UU/s1600/Clown_Car_122860.gif" target="_blank">a car</a>, which can transport an unlimited amount on marines.
And yeah Bob, I liked the previous implementation of para as well because of that synergy you had with the commander and other players...
<!--quoteo(post=1960605:date=Aug 10 2012, 11:22 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Aug 10 2012, 11:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The EXO is cancelled in favour of <a href="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Q6aL6jOg2cs/Te9pNEPzUeI/AAAAAAAAAMM/wtBYJ8EN2UU/s1600/Clown_Car_122860.gif" target="_blank">a car</a>, which can transport an unlimited amount on marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1960560:date=Aug 10 2012, 11:53 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Aug 10 2012, 11:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960560"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Followup to some of the thoughts in here:
- The Hive/CommandStation health indicator will be shrunk and made to look prettier soon.
- The red Hive/CommandStation indicators will be changed to more accurately reflect your team's current knowledge of the existence of that Hive/CommandStation (ie, Cloak). But note that they don't show up until they are sighted by members of your team. I've watched tons of new players struggle with the game and not knowing where to go, that's why these were added (and I think they are working well).
- Hive sight and parasite: these are in a half-way state right now. We are redoing how alien sight works now to be much more helpful but in the meantime, Parasite doesn't help you much. Don't worry, this will be fixed shortly. This is how our open development works.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All Parasite needs to do, is show where something is, you can remove the +1 if you parasite something, none of us woudl care. Parasite was great so that if you saw a RT or something going up, you could parasite it and see where it was on your map or by hive sight. That way during play if you still see that parasite blip up, you would know that they've been getting a lot of resources, and if down, you know your team is doing their job and taking down the RTs. It was great for scouting.
For health indicators, what was wrong with just having a percentage? Why add a progress bar which takes up more room and just blocks more of the screen? I really find it pointless, and I know of more players who hate it, then your beloved 'new' players.
You need to stop focusing so much on the new players. Let them play the game for a while and get a feel for it, like the rest of us. When I first started playing ns1, what did I and thousands of other new players do? We played the map over and over again, and we got a feel for everything and learned what needed to be done and where to go. It isn't difficult and if a new player can't retain that information after playing the map a bunch of times, then too damn bad.
I've been playing NS for 10 years now, and I can safely say that the direction it seems to be going will hurt the game. It seems like your focusing so much on the new players, rather than listening to the more experienced players. You need to listen to both types of players, and not step down and ignore the more experienced population, which has been the case for quite a while it seems..
<!--quoteo(post=1960385:date=Aug 10 2012, 07:18 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Aug 10 2012, 07:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960385"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dunno, i feel like i get some extra graphic glitches this patch...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm using AMD/ATi and I'm getting the major flickering issues as well. It's bad enough that I've had to stop playing a few times -- way too headache inducing. Changing graphic settings does nothing. It seems to be the worst on Docking.
i5-3470 / 6850 / 8GB 1600
Was rarely present, but barely noticeable before this patch.
They are wonderful for new players. New players have such a huge learning curve. Things like the new progress bar are instantly recognizable and define right away what you're doing. Same with the Red Hive --- it shows exactly what and where it is.
For non-new players, however, it is nothing but distracting and annoying. Can't tell you how many times in the few games I've played that I've had the Red Hive right in my reticule trying to shoot a skulk, but I can't make out the skulk for the giant red hive in my way, and then I get chomped. Incredibly frustrating, especially when it isn't necessary for me.
So, I say keep the newbie UI stuff, but consolidate it all to a toggle option "training wheels" tool-tip UI where we can adjust it accordingly depending on our own playing style and familiarity with the game.
Blending the UI with the world is one thing that set NS apart from all those other trite HUD games, IMO (Read: NS1 transparent build progress bars on the floor) -- NS2 shouldn't be any different!
After playing the game again, one other thing I want to offer is that it seems like Arms Lab weapon upgrades should be scaling more for the assault rifle so it can still be viable if players lack the P-res to buy an advanced weapon. Not MUCH more, mind, but late game it becomes next to useless. I feel it should get a bit more of a boost to put it a little closer to other late-game Marine weapons, in keeping with the idea that each one fulfills a specific role.
Also, playing for a while, the CC/Hive indicator isn't THAT obstructive, but having the option to disable it would still be appreciated.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1960606:date=Aug 10 2012, 11:25 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Aug 10 2012, 11:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->PARTY VAN!!!!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe the technical term is party bus :)
<!--quoteo(post=1960560:date=Aug 10 2012, 05:53 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Aug 10 2012, 05:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960560"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- The red Hive/CommandStation indicators will be changed to more accurately reflect your team's current knowledge of the existence of that Hive/CommandStation (ie, Cloak). But note that they don't show up until they are sighted by members of your team. I've watched tons of new players struggle with the game and not knowing where to go, that's why these were added (and I think they are working well).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cmon, just delete it again!! I see you guys work on tutorials for NS2 (ingame). So why u not make an Objektiv tutorial what to do etc. And btw. new players before the "TB-Invasion" where forced to learn it alone and now they know what to do. It isnt so complicate. After 2-3 rounds you know what buildings you need to destroy. :(
<!--quoteo(post=1960634:date=Aug 10 2012, 12:18 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 10 2012, 12:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960634"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe the technical term is party bus :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1960611:date=Aug 10 2012, 05:33 PM:name=Syknik)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Syknik @ Aug 10 2012, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've been playing NS for 10 years now, and I can safely say that the direction it seems to be going will hurt the game. It seems like your focusing so much on the new players, rather than listening to the more experienced players. You need to listen to both types of players, and not step down and ignore the more experienced population, which has been the case for quite a while it seems..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
We can easily agree on the fact that they needed a nerf, but the nerf ruined the feel of the lerk. The over powered factor was the infinite spike spam. I think it would be better if the spikes were just increased in cost, rather than having the feel of the lerk ruined. Right now it feels more like it's better suited to wait for spikes, find a hidden place in the action, sit there and shoot spikes away, rather than promoting flight. And I think flight is essential for it.
Flight spamming is the result of a poor energy system in NS2, lerks managing their flight energy was the staple of lerk gameplay for nearly 10 years. NS2 does not redefine what a lerk is "all about" due to a few months of poor energy management oversight.
In fact the NS2 glide is still much more effective than the NS1 glide, lerk flying is about knowing when to glide, when to flap and managing your resources while staying afloat, of course when flying costs nothing you are going to get used to a very unbalanced flight system, but It really isn't what the lerk is about.
I agree however that it was a bit too strong of a nerf, and the energy requirement should be reduced a bit.
While gliding you can still pancake and do 180 degree turns losing virtually no speed and any speed lost can be gained back in 1-2 flaps. NS2 gliding is VERY forgiving.
Just to clarify, I have an Nvidia 460GTX and as far as I can tell it's everytime I initially join a server. Once I alt-tab out and back in it never occurs again even on map rotation.
Good:
-Hit registration seems to have improved.
-It seems to me that adrenaline is no longer basically infinite energy.
Bad:
-Aliens have been overly nerfed. Choosing between the 3 types of upgrades seems reasonable but only if energy wasn't messed with. I'm not sure how to balance this--I just know it's broken.
-Displaying hives/CCs is really annoying to look at.
-Health bars are really redundant.
You arent fighting with spikes often enough then.
In order to survive a spike vs marine encounter you have to bob and weave *by flapping* while maintaining aim on the marine.
Also, it can suck to travel through vents with this system.
Lerk in ns1 also was able to range spore, so there are some gameplay differences.
No matter what, it just feels like im being penalized for traveling.. like a skulk losing energy for running. If gliding got me everywhere and never stopped and worked in combat, and flapping was something special like "leap" or "blink" then yea ok it'd make sense.. but its not.
I agree in theory, but this just doesn't work with the current model of rapid-fire spikes. The only way to make the lerk gameplay you're proposing viable, is to make the spikes do burst-damage instead of the current steady-stream-damage (awful term, best I could think of right now). I should add that the current bite/spores are near hard countered by shotguns -- which marines often research within the first few minutes of the game.
I don't think anyone who's played against me will arrest me if I say that I am a very able Lerk player. So what does it say when I then tell you that I currently don't lerk unless the commander asks me very nicely? I already realized in b215 that lerking simply wasn't worth it because hive1 lerks are almost useless against shotguns and by the time you get spikes, you may as well go fade, which is a much more powerful alien class anyway. With the b216 changes to the movement (less agile) and flap costs (in actuality a big spike nerf), I don't see myself returning to the lerk anytime soon.
In this version, provided you're "playing to win" as opposed to "playing for fun", going lerk is the NS2 equivalent of flushing your money down the drain.
- So far our performance stats show a noticeable performance increase in 216. Due to the nature of perf on PC, that of course doesn't mean every single person, but as a general trend.
- The Hive/CommandStation health indicator will be shrunk and made to look prettier soon.
- The red Hive/CommandStation indicators will be changed to more accurately reflect your team's current knowledge of the existence of that Hive/CommandStation (ie, Cloak). But note that they don't show up until they are sighted by members of your team. I've watched tons of new players struggle with the game and not knowing where to go, that's why these were added (and I think they are working well).
- Carapace (on Skulks) will be toned down for 217.
- Hive sight and parasite: these are in a half-way state right now. We are redoing how alien sight works now to be much more helpful but in the meantime, Parasite doesn't help you much. Don't worry, this will be fixed shortly. This is how our open development works.
- Balance has made a massive swing for the better. Some alien players will complain - all will need to adapt. It is now almost exactly 50/50, which is a HUGE improvement. We are not even close to done with balance though - there will continue to be lots of smaller changes to make sure all the tech in the game is useful and we're seeing massive diversity in play.
In this version, provided you're "playing to win" as opposed to "playing for fun", going lerk is the NS2 equivalent of flushing your money down the drain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't entirely agree with you. in B215 it was fairly decent to be lerking with 1 hive / carapace. The carapace provided protection from the shotguns if you were unlucky to get a face-first hit, you were, however, still able to actually fight a shotgun (although proper players with great aim would be a pain). Until the marines get armor 2 the bite is still very strong, but it was only so, if you could actually use your movement to counter the power of their weapons.
I think we can all agree that a lerk dies very easily, if actually hit. It's only defense against this is it's rapid movement. When lerks tend to stay alive long (at least medio-core lerks), it's because they do a fly-by with spore, which isn't very effective anyway.
I prefer the lerk being very action minded, and it's amazing capabilities in the early/mid game. In B215 lerk/fade was very situational, but in B216 lerk is hardly every a reasonable choice, just as you say. I still think the problem that needed addressing, was the spike-spam. But instead of tweaking spikes, they made a change that impacts the entire lerk gameplay.
Edit:
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (flayra)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- The red Hive/CommandStation indicators will be changed to more accurately reflect your team's current knowledge of the existence of that Hive/CommandStation (ie, Cloak). But note that they don't show up until they are sighted by members of your team. I've watched tons of new players struggle with the game and not knowing where to go, that's why these were added (and I think they are working well).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think we all appreciate the idea behind it, but I think the problem is much the same as with the progress / health bar. The current style of it is very much interfering with your focus on the stuff ahead of you (what you can actually see on the screen). It needs to be implemented in a way such that it isn't as much a dominating piece of geometry, but a subtle, yet present, piece of information.
It's a directly adressing the learning curve for new players, but the question is if it does anything good for players who actually know the maps? Those who know how to get around, and where things are. Further in competative play, this feature is mostly, if not entirely, useless. I guess it would be worth while to discuss if it's more a 'tutorial' kind a thing, like the hints, and if it should be permanent, or should go away. Maybe it should be a toggle thing, so the experienced people can avoid the mess it makes.
- The red Hive/CommandStation indicators will be changed to more accurately reflect your team's current knowledge of the existence of that Hive/CommandStation (ie, Cloak). But note that they don't show up until they are sighted by members of your team. I've watched tons of new players struggle with the game and not knowing where to go, that's why these were added (and I think they are working well).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is always going to be a learning curve with everyone who plays a new game but it's getting pretty rediculous. Please stop dumbing down the game or at least make it an option to turn it off.
Also, it doesn't always help new players. Sometimes this will hurt them because they will see the hive/cc and go straight for that instead of listening to their command to attack/defend other areas that are more important at the moment.
If you plan to keep the idea that MACs can auto-weld Marines, might I suggest that they not collide with them? I died twice to aliens after the MAC blocked me from escaping.
Another big thing is there's a lot of shadow flickering on the world geometry. Might be something to keep in mind for 217.
I had no trouble playing Lerk in the game I was in, Fade felt more balanced, and shotguns felt more viable. I enjoy the lower Cyst health, and the health indicators that come up for a CC or Hive under attack.
Also, it doesn't always help new players. Sometimes this will hurt them because they will see the hive/cc and go straight for that instead of listening to their command to attack/defend other areas that are more important at the moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see it as dumbing down the game. I've always been an advocate of not appealing to the masses, simply to make a game easier and in the process screwing over your loyal fanbase. It's something I abhor, and don't support at all. They dumbed down my AVP reboot and it left a bitter taste in my mouth.
This doesn't count, imo. All it does is feed information to new players, players who may have not all their bearings when starting a new game like this. Puts them on a more even playing field, when placed alongside more experienced players. Those more experienced players will still have an advantage, but in different, more subtle packets of knowledge. They'll know tips and tricks visual cues can't really teach all that well, and just experience in general. Being able to read your map is not a skill, or at least not one to brag about. Skill comes from other aspects of the game.
It's not as if they added multiple variables that make NS more reliant on chance, rather than skill, a la Call of Duty. Now THAT is a good example of dumbing down a franchise.
The developers aren't making sweeping changes to the game so more players are able to access it....they're just feeding information, that's all. None of these changes drastically alter the game in a negative way.
With that said, the new UI changes are incredibly ugly and I agree...very obtrusive and a cluster######. That's the only real negative. However, I've heard they're only placeholder so whatever. It would also be nice to have a toggle feature for seasoned vets that don't need these visual cues.
How does the command station/hive indicator help new players with that though? For most of the game, that's not actually where they should be going.
I also kind of thought the B215 parasite system was working well (perma-parasite, only removed by armories).
The EXO is cancelled in favour of <a href="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Q6aL6jOg2cs/Te9pNEPzUeI/AAAAAAAAAMM/wtBYJ8EN2UU/s1600/Clown_Car_122860.gif" target="_blank">a car</a>, which can transport an unlimited amount on marines.
And yeah Bob, I liked the previous implementation of para as well because of that synergy you had with the commander and other players...
PARTY VAN!!!!!!
- The Hive/CommandStation health indicator will be shrunk and made to look prettier soon.
- The red Hive/CommandStation indicators will be changed to more accurately reflect your team's current knowledge of the existence of that Hive/CommandStation (ie, Cloak). But note that they don't show up until they are sighted by members of your team. I've watched tons of new players struggle with the game and not knowing where to go, that's why these were added (and I think they are working well).
- Hive sight and parasite: these are in a half-way state right now. We are redoing how alien sight works now to be much more helpful but in the meantime, Parasite doesn't help you much. Don't worry, this will be fixed shortly. This is how our open development works.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All Parasite needs to do, is show where something is, you can remove the +1 if you parasite something, none of us woudl care. Parasite was great so that if you saw a RT or something going up, you could parasite it and see where it was on your map or by hive sight. That way during play if you still see that parasite blip up, you would know that they've been getting a lot of resources, and if down, you know your team is doing their job and taking down the RTs. It was great for scouting.
For health indicators, what was wrong with just having a percentage? Why add a progress bar which takes up more room and just blocks more of the screen? I really find it pointless, and I know of more players who hate it, then your beloved 'new' players.
You need to stop focusing so much on the new players. Let them play the game for a while and get a feel for it, like the rest of us. When I first started playing ns1, what did I and thousands of other new players do? We played the map over and over again, and we got a feel for everything and learned what needed to be done and where to go. It isn't difficult and if a new player can't retain that information after playing the map a bunch of times, then too damn bad.
I've been playing NS for 10 years now, and I can safely say that the direction it seems to be going will hurt the game. It seems like your focusing so much on the new players, rather than listening to the more experienced players. You need to listen to both types of players, and not step down and ignore the more experienced population, which has been the case for quite a while it seems..
I'm using AMD/ATi and I'm getting the major flickering issues as well. It's bad enough that I've had to stop playing a few times -- way too headache inducing. Changing graphic settings does nothing. It seems to be the worst on Docking.
i5-3470 / 6850 / 8GB 1600
Was rarely present, but barely noticeable before this patch.
"Someone please parasite obs so we can find it when we rush"
"Remember to parasite rt's guys, so others can find them too"
They are wonderful for new players. New players have such a huge learning curve. Things like the new progress bar are instantly recognizable and define right away what you're doing. Same with the Red Hive --- it shows exactly what and where it is.
For non-new players, however, it is nothing but distracting and annoying. Can't tell you how many times in the few games I've played that I've had the Red Hive right in my reticule trying to shoot a skulk, but I can't make out the skulk for the giant red hive in my way, and then I get chomped. Incredibly frustrating, especially when it isn't necessary for me.
So, I say keep the newbie UI stuff, but consolidate it all to a toggle option "training wheels" tool-tip UI where we can adjust it accordingly depending on our own playing style and familiarity with the game.
Blending the UI with the world is one thing that set NS apart from all those other trite HUD games, IMO (Read: NS1 transparent build progress bars on the floor) -- NS2 shouldn't be any different!
Also, playing for a while, the CC/Hive indicator isn't THAT obstructive, but having the option to disable it would still be appreciated.
I believe the technical term is party bus :)
Cmon, just delete it again!! I see you guys work on tutorials for NS2 (ingame). So why u not make an Objektiv tutorial what to do etc. And btw. new players before the "TB-Invasion" where forced to learn it alone and now they know what to do. It isnt so complicate. After 2-3 rounds you know what buildings you need to destroy. :(
It'd be hard to fit a bus in these corridors.
Word!