<!--quoteo(post=1964677:date=Aug 18 2012, 04:14 PM:name=EgoGamer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EgoGamer @ Aug 18 2012, 04:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964677"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree, 4 hives should be the clincher. I actually lost a game as aliens with 4 hives because we got so bored bombarding the marine turtle that we f4ed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the very reason why I think limiting the upgrades per chamber to one was a bad idea. Seems to me that it caused more of those boring stalemates where marines just tech up and steamroll everything with JP shotgunners (read: opgunners) accompanied with an ARC train. Just like they did in NS1 with Heavies. So, if we're not going to have cara + rege again with 2 hives, I atleast think we should get 4th upgrade with 4th hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1965087:date=Aug 20 2012, 04:45 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Aug 20 2012, 04:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even the battle between Cara and Regen is kinda one-sided, since in a game where you can get one-shotted by a couple of marines as pretty much any lifeform, you will always, ALWAYS want extra tanking power. True, some Fades are taking regen, but I doubt that's just on pubs. When marines have decent aim, a weapon level or two and shotguns, you can't really afford the luxury of regen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think cara should be replaced with a passive armor bonus that increases with each hive. Exactly like it did up to three DCs in NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=1965203:date=Aug 20 2012, 11:20 AM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Aug 20 2012, 11:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965203"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what do you want to say with this comment?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i havent played since earlier alpha and im waiting for the final release so i can try again, im also an old school player from ns1 1.04
its funny because i didnt play this or folow the updates/builds for about 4-5 months and now i see this, 4 hives? seriously?
<!--quoteo(post=1965252:date=Aug 20 2012, 01:32 PM:name=riner)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (riner @ Aug 20 2012, 01:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i havent played since earlier alpha and im waiting for the final release so i can try again, im also an old school player from ns1 1.04
its funny because i didnt play this or folow the updates/builds for about 4-5 months and now i see this, 4 hives? seriously?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure why not? I still don't get it why this surprises you so much. This is possible since the first releases of the beta. If the map has enough tech points you can even have more hives.
<!--quoteo(post=1964684:date=Aug 18 2012, 03:40 PM:name=Angry Hillbilly 2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angry Hillbilly 2 @ Aug 18 2012, 03:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964684"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien Superweapon: Hyper-agressive Infestation (or some other way more imaginative name): basically infestation rushes into the enemy base like the clappers but it is poisonus and damages buildings (rather like the tenticle fields in tiberian sun :P )
Marrine Superweapon: Toxin of some sort that again poisons the aliens in the most grusome discintigration coolest way possible for a final hurrah! :P
Hey they are on the spot ideas but an endgame device is definatly needed i think<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this sounds awesome. Marine superweapon could just be that the whole map gets powered and starts damaging aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1965252:date=Aug 20 2012, 02:32 PM:name=riner)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (riner @ Aug 20 2012, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i havent played since earlier alpha and im waiting for the final release so i can try again, im also an old school player from ns1 1.04
its funny because i didnt play this or folow the updates/builds for about 4-5 months and now i see this, 4 hives? seriously?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you can build as many hives as there are free tech points, on a map with 10 tech points you could get 9 hives.
You could build 4 hives in NS1 too if there were enough hive spawn points placed in by the mapper. NS2 just has more than 3(+1 for marines) as standard in its maps, I forget why.
<!--quoteo(post=1965305:date=Aug 20 2012, 05:36 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Aug 20 2012, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965305"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could build 4 hives in NS1 too if there were enough hive spawn points placed in by the mapper. NS2 just has more than 3(+1 for marines) as standard in its maps, I forget why.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
how about the ability to use both types of one class of upgrade if you have 4 hives? Or maybe even if you have 3 hives you can get regen and cara OR adren and celerity etc. but no other upgrades
This might be a good place to break from NS1 tradition. Perhaps gorges can have their build limit uncapped.
<!--quoteo(post=1965305:date=Aug 20 2012, 05:36 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Aug 20 2012, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965305"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could build 4 hives in NS1 too if there were enough hive spawn points placed in by the mapper. NS2 just has more than 3(+1 for marines) as standard in its maps, I forget why.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But the game was more or less designed around 3, which is I imagine why all the stock maps had 3 (or at least all that I ever played on).
<!--quoteo(post=1965087:date=Aug 19 2012, 09:45 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Aug 19 2012, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even the battle between Cara and Regen is kinda one-sided, since in a game where you can get one-shotted by a couple of marines as pretty much any lifeform, you will always, ALWAYS want extra tanking power. True, some Fades are taking regen, but I doubt that's just on pubs. When marines have decent aim, a weapon level or two and shotguns, you can't really afford the luxury of regen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not once you have leap, gorilla warfare becomes much easier then.
<!--quoteo(post=1965326:date=Aug 20 2012, 06:08 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Aug 20 2012, 06:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965326"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not once you have leap, gorilla warfare becomes much easier then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorilla warfare is impossible against marines with armouries. Carapace is required because you have to stay till you get a kill, you can't hit and run as they just get full health / armour again.
<!--quoteo(post=1965357:date=Aug 21 2012, 10:51 AM:name=spawneh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spawneh @ Aug 21 2012, 10:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965357"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorilla warfare is impossible against marines with armouries. Carapace is required because you have to stay till you get a kill, you can't hit and run as they just get full health / armour again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You (edit: and most of the other NS players <i>ever</i>) need to take off your deathmatch helmet for a second and think about the RTS elements of the game.
Just get rid of the dumb "only one ability per hive type" crap... it's probably the worst change I've seen to NS2 yet. Unintuitive and confusing to players, makes no sense, punishes new commanders, makes getting more than 1 upgrade per hive basically worthless, and to top it all off it doesn't even fix what (I assume) it's trying to solve: balancing the evolutions out. If the evolutions are unbalanced... <i>balance them</i>
<!--quoteo(post=1965371:date=Aug 21 2012, 12:53 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Aug 21 2012, 12:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965371"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You (edit: and most of the other NS players <i>ever</i>) need to take off your deathmatch helmet for a second and think about the RTS elements of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry but I think armouries healing armour is broken and gives marines too much of an edge.
If aliens cant have Cara and Regen than armouries should not heal health and armour as that is doing the same thing for marines as what cara and regen did for aliens.
Simple fix really is that armouries revert back to how they where in 215, only healing health. This means marines need another marine (or Mac) to interact with to get full healed.
Too often a forward armoury in say reactor outside of atrium can cause aliens to concede that res point even when atrium is primary hive. Allow health to heal and give them more ammo etc, but if they want to heal armour they need a welder, mac or perhaps an upgraded advanced armoury (ie after you upgrade to advanced armoury you then have to select armour healing for that armoury or all (would need to be costly if all))
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1965352:date=Aug 21 2012, 10:27 AM:name=ellnic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ellnic @ Aug 21 2012, 10:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965352"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Balance is one reason they stoped this. An alien with Cara and Regen is a deadly combo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes but i you look at most map layouts, if aliens can get a 4th hive, you wouldn't be worried about balance or it being a deadly combo, you'd want the obvious winners to win, correct?
Hakenspit the purpose of reverting the armories to heal armor again was a simple thing of marines couldn't win at all last game unless aliens were drunk or just new (namely biscuit skulks, srsly guiz) But the problem is, they NERFED aliens too much so that the balance swang too much in marine favor. So it's a case of 2 needed changes at 2 very bad times.
@hackenspit From a design principle, I'm ok with changing the armouries back to 215 model. The 216 "energy" model is so generous that I've found it indistinguishable from the 214 model (bug?) and even if it worked as intended marines have the option of building redundant armouries for pretty cheep. That said, b216 is one of the most balanced builds I've seen. Team stacking and map design/starting points seems to to have more influence over who's likely to win. So while I'd be happy to see the 215 armoury model come back it seems the aliens would also need a nerf to maintain the balance.
<!--quoteo(post=1965371:date=Aug 20 2012, 09:53 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Aug 20 2012, 09:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965371"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You (edit: and most of the other NS players <i>ever</i>) need to take off your deathmatch helmet for a second and think about the RTS elements of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless you completely wipe the marines from an area, they just repair / heal and re arm. Having carapace gives you extra time to make the kills to clear an area. You cannot clear an area by hitting and retreating as all damage you do will be undone before you return (usually).
Basically if you don't kill a marine in one assault, he's at full health / armour when you return to try again. Therefore they hold that location, RTS fail.
<!--quoteo(post=1965401:date=Aug 21 2012, 03:23 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Aug 21 2012, 03:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965401"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@hackenspit From a design principle, I'm ok with changing the armouries back to 215 model. The 216 "energy" model is so generous that I've found it indistinguishable from the 214 model (bug?) and even if it worked as intended marines have the option of building redundant armouries for pretty cheep. That said, b216 is one of the most balanced builds I've seen. Team stacking and map design/starting points seems to to have more influence over who's likely to win. So while I'd be happy to see the 215 armoury model come back it seems the aliens would also need a nerf to maintain the balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agree map design, starting locations and team stacking both have significant balance impacts currently (do love those sneaky marine victories when aliens destroy their one and only comm chair).
The energy model I agree does not work, from what I have seen in practice it makes no difference and I can still heal and armour up nice and quick. This is where I think that the games not balanced currently, I think that before aliens are nerfed we see how no cara and regen plays against no armour healing. I actually think these two changes would balance of nicely (as no cara and regen is MAJOR issue for fades, lerks and Onos (though Onos are just currently lame)). I think even half way skilled alien teams struggle against a similarly skilled marine team, carapace is needed once shotguns are out (say 2-3 min in) and this give aliens about 3-5 minutes before marines get enough weapon/armour upgrades to render carapace useless again (generally by the 9 min mark from my experience). Marines are definately stronger than aliens this patch...the fact I get some decent scores as marine is a clear indicator of the bias...I suck yet SG's against non cara or late game skulks is sadism.
The bigger change (atleast for skulks) will be the hit cone being replaced with a straight cylinder type shape which will mean skulks should again be something feared when they get up close. But as that will only impact skulk and not other aliens (assumption as was not indicated) its a minor tweak.
The forward armouries when coupled with a PG can give marines the sort of early game map mobility and dominance aliens can only dream about, they dont need to go back to base to heal and have a huge edge over aliens who has to return to spawn to heal (or a team member has to sacrifice combat efficiency and go gorge).
<!--quoteo(post=1965407:date=Aug 21 2012, 03:03 PM:name=spawneh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spawneh @ Aug 21 2012, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unless you completely wipe the marines from an area, they just repair / heal and re arm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sometimes it seems this way but it's actually not as easy as that for marines. If the aliens continuously assault the one area marines get familiar with it and get better at reacting automatically. A guerrilla warfare stratetegy would be about making irregular attacks and allowing the marines the oportunity to forget to repair something.
<!--quoteo(post=1965407:date=Aug 21 2012, 03:03 PM:name=spawneh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spawneh @ Aug 21 2012, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having carapace gives you extra time to make the kills to clear an area.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wouldn't debate the effectiveness of carapace for achieving a goal like that. What I would debate is the effectiveness of the goal itself. Sometimes you have to ask effective is it to kill a marine who's standing near an armoury? If the marine will drop his weapon (if he has one) somewhere that's easy for him or his teammates to pick up (is it in the marine's base or near a phase gate?). The marine is basically assured of respawning in under 10 seconds so there's almost no lost pRes income, definately no effect on tRes. It also risks a lot for the aliens with the current respawn wave mechanics. The alien stands to lose not only his own pRes but also create a burden on the alien respawn wave which can affect other people's pRes income.
All too often it's easy for aliens to go after kills when it's of little to no consequence to the game outcome. Despite being accutely aware of it I fall for this trap.
<!--quoteo(post=1965407:date=Aug 21 2012, 03:03 PM:name=spawneh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spawneh @ Aug 21 2012, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You cannot clear an area by hitting and retreating as all damage you do will be undone before you return (usually).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You absolutely can. The thing is you won't get an immediate and quantitative result and that's what makes it seem less effective.
<!--quoteo(post=1965407:date=Aug 21 2012, 03:03 PM:name=spawneh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spawneh @ Aug 21 2012, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically if you don't kill a marine in one assault, he's at full health / armour when you return to try again. Therefore they hold that location, RTS fail.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Firstly, unlike the aliens, marines have no viable static defence. So if the aliens go where the marines aren't, they'll have free range. If the marines spread out and try to defend everything, the aliens can group up and assault anything they want en mass. Secondly, the 'RTS fail' scenario you mention doesn't happen unless the marines hold more res points than the aliens. The former point makes that extremely difficult for marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1965385:date=Aug 21 2012, 06:12 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Aug 21 2012, 06:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965385"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Simple fix really is that armouries revert back to how they where in 215, only healing health. This means marines need another marine (or Mac) to interact with to get full healed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just a quick note on MACs. A squadron of them is highly exploitable; They weld stuff and rebuild power nodes insanely fast. They need something like this: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Heal spray no longer builds structures at a simple fixed rate of .6. It now adds .25 + a scalar between .25 and .7, depending on the last time it was sprayed. This makes multiple Gorges helpful, but increasingly less effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1965424:date=Aug 21 2012, 04:42 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Aug 21 2012, 04:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sometimes it seems this way but it's actually not as easy as that for marines. If the aliens continuously assault the one area marines get familiar with it and get better at reacting automatically. A guerrilla warfare stratetegy would be about making irregular attacks and allowing the marines the oportunity to forget to repair something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, you can theorise all you want. Simple fact is aliens have three choices.
1. all-in and clear the 4-5 marines + armoury 2. All-in against the marine base 3. loose their spawn RT and get spawn locked
It's a thousand times worse when you spawn close positions, cause they can just setup straight up again.
@hackenspit Yeah the marines have unprecedented mobility. Sprint, jetpacks & phasegates. Unfortunately the nerfing of sentries has made that mobility mandatory for defensive purposes. The problem is it also works as an offensive advantage. As for whether the game is balanced or not, well I guess we'll just have to disagree. But the stats are on my side hehe
<!--quoteo(post=1965429:date=Aug 21 2012, 04:51 PM:name=mf-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mf- @ Aug 21 2012, 04:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965429"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, you can theorise all you want. Simple fact is aliens have three choices.
1. all-in and clear the 4-5 marines + armoury 2. All-in against the marine base 3. loose their spawn RT and get spawn locked
It's a thousand times worse when you spawn close positions, cause they can just setup straight up again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You mistook my considered opinion for theory. Worse, you did it deliberately to try and devalue my post.
What you've described is relevant to short games on docking where marines start in terminal and aliens start in tram hub, and only because aliens haven't yet developed a game plan to deal with that specific and pretty atypical scenario (in the grander scheme of things).
As I said in my last post (but after your one), I think there is a problem with marine mobility and I'd agree that it is having a bad effect on close spawn scenarios, but it's not nearly as black and white as you're suggesting.
<!--quoteo(post=1965427:date=Aug 21 2012, 05:49 PM:name=iKossu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iKossu @ Aug 21 2012, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965427"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just a quick note on MACs. A squadron of them is highly exploitable; They weld stuff and rebuild power nodes insanely fast. They need something like this:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes thats a good point must admit most pub comms ignore macs..but have seen them used well and thehy can repair things very quickly.
<!--quoteo(post=1965431:date=Aug 21 2012, 05:56 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Aug 21 2012, 05:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@hackenspit Yeah the marines have unprecedented mobility. Sprint, jetpacks & phasegates. Unfortunately the nerfing of sentries has made that mobility mandatory for defensive purposes. The problem is it also works as an offensive advantage. As for whether the game is balanced or not, well I guess we'll just have to disagree. But the stats are on my side hehe<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well sentries are a joke...even as a player who likes to play aliens...I no longer fear them at all. I would rather see sentries back to how they used to be and not have marines with mobility that used to be the domain of aliens. Hard cap on sentries (similar to the limit that used to be applied to TF's in ns1) along with a decent buff for them is needed.
I like your chuckle at the end....I dont think either of us would try to say game stats really are showing much ;) Always fun when marines pwn the aliens yet when the game ends you get the aliens win sequence....aaah good times. Games are perhaps ore balanced but I would say marines have the edge now and it takes a very organized alien team to win....where marines now have it a lot easier. Heck the fact I can actually kill things as a marine in this patch says to me there is something wrong...I am sh1t and old...nerves shot reflexes gone...yet I can easily break even on kill death as a marine (which is about 75% more kills than I deserve). Its good to see the games heading in teh right direction, roll out exo....then we can really start arguing balance.
<!--quoteo(post=1965389:date=Aug 21 2012, 04:39 AM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Aug 21 2012, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965389"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes but i you look at most map layouts, if aliens can get a 4th hive, you wouldn't be worried about balance or it being a deadly combo, you'd want the obvious winners to win, correct?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I think the 4 hive should stay as it is. Also if marines do a final push hoping to take down a hive and then they succeed in doing so, they may lose upgrades so the 4th hive can be a backup hive to quckly regain those upgrades and not wait for a new hive to grow.
<!--quoteo(post=1965827:date=Aug 22 2012, 06:33 AM:name=ellnic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ellnic @ Aug 22 2012, 06:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965827"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, I think the 4 hive should stay as it is. Also if marines do a final push hoping to take down a hive and then they succeed in doing so, they may lose upgrades so the 4th hive can be a backup hive to quckly regain those upgrades and not wait for a new hive to grow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's why i like the idea of evolving it to a 2nd crag hive for access to regen and carapace. If you want celerity and adrenaline you would have to get a 2nd shift hive. The only two questions would be if you are allowed to build a 2nd hive of a type before you have built the other 2 types. And if you are allowed to keep 2 crag hive abilities if you don't have 4 hives anymore.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
It should definately be implemented, but only as a fourth hive option, otherwise we'd have early game cara + regen or feign + camo or silence or celerity + adren early on, and that would be painful for a low level marine team to counter, only if it's late game should it be considered. and by late game, i mean aliens have all the hives, and the marines are too freaking stubborn to just play hide and seek, and prolong it forever, which happens ALL THE TIME this build, especialy vs good marines who, no matter how good they were, just couldn't win. that second or third rt for long enough to get some better upgrades.
Comments
This is the very reason why I think limiting the upgrades per chamber to one was a bad idea. Seems to me that it caused more of those boring stalemates where marines just tech up and steamroll everything with JP shotgunners (read: opgunners) accompanied with an ARC train. Just like they did in NS1 with Heavies. So, if we're not going to have cara + rege again with 2 hives, I atleast think we should get 4th upgrade with 4th hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1965087:date=Aug 20 2012, 04:45 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Aug 20 2012, 04:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even the battle between Cara and Regen is kinda one-sided, since in a game where you can get one-shotted by a couple of marines as pretty much any lifeform, you will always, ALWAYS want extra tanking power. True, some Fades are taking regen, but I doubt that's just on pubs. When marines have decent aim, a weapon level or two and shotguns, you can't really afford the luxury of regen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think cara should be replaced with a passive armor bonus that increases with each hive. Exactly like it did up to three DCs in NS1.
omg...
omg...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what do you want to say with this comment?
i havent played since earlier alpha and im waiting for the final release so i can try again, im also an old school player from ns1 1.04
its funny because i didnt play this or folow the updates/builds for about 4-5 months and now i see this, 4 hives? seriously?
its funny because i didnt play this or folow the updates/builds for about 4-5 months and now i see this, 4 hives? seriously?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure why not? I still don't get it why this surprises you so much. This is possible since the first releases of the beta. If the map has enough tech points you can even have more hives.
Marrine Superweapon: Toxin of some sort that again poisons the aliens in the most grusome discintigration coolest way possible for a final hurrah! :P
Hey they are on the spot ideas but an endgame device is definatly needed i think<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this sounds awesome. Marine superweapon could just be that the whole map gets powered and starts damaging aliens.
its funny because i didnt play this or folow the updates/builds for about 4-5 months and now i see this, 4 hives? seriously?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you can build as many hives as there are free tech points, on a map with 10 tech points you could get 9 hives.
multiple comms
<!--quoteo(post=1965305:date=Aug 20 2012, 05:36 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Aug 20 2012, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965305"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could build 4 hives in NS1 too if there were enough hive spawn points placed in by the mapper. NS2 just has more than 3(+1 for marines) as standard in its maps, I forget why.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But the game was more or less designed around 3, which is I imagine why all the stock maps had 3 (or at least all that I ever played on).
<!--quoteo(post=1965087:date=Aug 19 2012, 09:45 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Aug 19 2012, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even the battle between Cara and Regen is kinda one-sided, since in a game where you can get one-shotted by a couple of marines as pretty much any lifeform, you will always, ALWAYS want extra tanking power. True, some Fades are taking regen, but I doubt that's just on pubs. When marines have decent aim, a weapon level or two and shotguns, you can't really afford the luxury of regen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not once you have leap, gorilla warfare becomes much easier then.
Gorilla warfare is impossible against marines with armouries. Carapace is required because you have to stay till you get a kill, you can't hit and run as they just get full health / armour again.
You (edit: and most of the other NS players <i>ever</i>) need to take off your deathmatch helmet for a second and think about the RTS elements of the game.
Sorry but I think armouries healing armour is broken and gives marines too much of an edge.
If aliens cant have Cara and Regen than armouries should not heal health and armour as that is doing the same thing for marines as what cara and regen did for aliens.
Simple fix really is that armouries revert back to how they where in 215, only healing health. This means marines need another marine (or Mac) to interact with to get full healed.
Too often a forward armoury in say reactor outside of atrium can cause aliens to concede that res point even when atrium is primary hive.
Allow health to heal and give them more ammo etc, but if they want to heal armour they need a welder, mac or perhaps an upgraded advanced armoury (ie after you upgrade to advanced armoury you then have to select armour healing for that armoury or all (would need to be costly if all))
Yes but i you look at most map layouts, if aliens can get a 4th hive, you wouldn't be worried about balance or it being a deadly combo, you'd want the obvious winners to win, correct?
Hakenspit the purpose of reverting the armories to heal armor again was a simple thing of marines couldn't win at all last game unless aliens were drunk or just new (namely biscuit skulks, srsly guiz)
But the problem is, they NERFED aliens too much so that the balance swang too much in marine favor.
So it's a case of 2 needed changes at 2 very bad times.
Also kyron stop teasing spawneh. :P
Unless you completely wipe the marines from an area, they just repair / heal and re arm. Having carapace gives you extra time to make the kills to clear an area. You cannot clear an area by hitting and retreating as all damage you do will be undone before you return (usually).
Basically if you don't kill a marine in one assault, he's at full health / armour when you return to try again. Therefore they hold that location, RTS fail.
Agree map design, starting locations and team stacking both have significant balance impacts currently (do love those sneaky marine victories when aliens destroy their one and only comm chair).
The energy model I agree does not work, from what I have seen in practice it makes no difference and I can still heal and armour up nice and quick.
This is where I think that the games not balanced currently, I think that before aliens are nerfed we see how no cara and regen plays against no armour healing. I actually think these two changes would balance of nicely (as no cara and regen is MAJOR issue for fades, lerks and Onos (though Onos are just currently lame)).
I think even half way skilled alien teams struggle against a similarly skilled marine team, carapace is needed once shotguns are out (say 2-3 min in) and this give aliens about 3-5 minutes before marines get enough weapon/armour upgrades to render carapace useless again (generally by the 9 min mark from my experience).
Marines are definately stronger than aliens this patch...the fact I get some decent scores as marine is a clear indicator of the bias...I suck yet SG's against non cara or late game skulks is sadism.
The bigger change (atleast for skulks) will be the hit cone being replaced with a straight cylinder type shape which will mean skulks should again be something feared when they get up close. But as that will only impact skulk and not other aliens (assumption as was not indicated) its a minor tweak.
The forward armouries when coupled with a PG can give marines the sort of early game map mobility and dominance aliens can only dream about, they dont need to go back to base to heal and have a huge edge over aliens who has to return to spawn to heal (or a team member has to sacrifice combat efficiency and go gorge).
Sometimes it seems this way but it's actually not as easy as that for marines. If the aliens continuously assault the one area marines get familiar with it and get better at reacting automatically. A guerrilla warfare stratetegy would be about making irregular attacks and allowing the marines the oportunity to forget to repair something.
<!--quoteo(post=1965407:date=Aug 21 2012, 03:03 PM:name=spawneh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spawneh @ Aug 21 2012, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having carapace gives you extra time to make the kills to clear an area.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't debate the effectiveness of carapace for achieving a goal like that. What I would debate is the effectiveness of the goal itself. Sometimes you have to ask effective is it to kill a marine who's standing near an armoury? If the marine will drop his weapon (if he has one) somewhere that's easy for him or his teammates to pick up (is it in the marine's base or near a phase gate?). The marine is basically assured of respawning in under 10 seconds so there's almost no lost pRes income, definately no effect on tRes. It also risks a lot for the aliens with the current respawn wave mechanics. The alien stands to lose not only his own pRes but also create a burden on the alien respawn wave which can affect other people's pRes income.
All too often it's easy for aliens to go after kills when it's of little to no consequence to the game outcome. Despite being accutely aware of it I fall for this trap.
<!--quoteo(post=1965407:date=Aug 21 2012, 03:03 PM:name=spawneh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spawneh @ Aug 21 2012, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You cannot clear an area by hitting and retreating as all damage you do will be undone before you return (usually).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You absolutely can. The thing is you won't get an immediate and quantitative result and that's what makes it seem less effective.
<!--quoteo(post=1965407:date=Aug 21 2012, 03:03 PM:name=spawneh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spawneh @ Aug 21 2012, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically if you don't kill a marine in one assault, he's at full health / armour when you return to try again. Therefore they hold that location, RTS fail.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly, unlike the aliens, marines have no viable static defence. So if the aliens go where the marines aren't, they'll have free range. If the marines spread out and try to defend everything, the aliens can group up and assault anything they want en mass. Secondly, the 'RTS fail' scenario you mention doesn't happen unless the marines hold more res points than the aliens. The former point makes that extremely difficult for marines.
Just a quick note on MACs. A squadron of them is highly exploitable; They weld stuff and rebuild power nodes insanely fast. They need something like this:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Heal spray no longer builds structures at a simple fixed rate of .6. It now adds .25 + a scalar between .25 and .7, depending on the last time it was sprayed. This makes multiple Gorges helpful, but increasingly less effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, you can theorise all you want. Simple fact is aliens have three choices.
1. all-in and clear the 4-5 marines + armoury
2. All-in against the marine base
3. loose their spawn RT and get spawn locked
It's a thousand times worse when you spawn close positions, cause they can just setup straight up again.
1. all-in and clear the 4-5 marines + armoury
2. All-in against the marine base
3. loose their spawn RT and get spawn locked
It's a thousand times worse when you spawn close positions, cause they can just setup straight up again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mistook my considered opinion for theory. Worse, you did it deliberately to try and devalue my post.
What you've described is relevant to short games on docking where marines start in terminal and aliens start in tram hub, and only because aliens haven't yet developed a game plan to deal with that specific and pretty atypical scenario (in the grander scheme of things).
As I said in my last post (but after your one), I think there is a problem with marine mobility and I'd agree that it is having a bad effect on close spawn scenarios, but it's not nearly as black and white as you're suggesting.
Yes thats a good point must admit most pub comms ignore macs..but have seen them used well and thehy can repair things very quickly.
<!--quoteo(post=1965431:date=Aug 21 2012, 05:56 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Aug 21 2012, 05:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@hackenspit Yeah the marines have unprecedented mobility. Sprint, jetpacks & phasegates. Unfortunately the nerfing of sentries has made that mobility mandatory for defensive purposes. The problem is it also works as an offensive advantage. As for whether the game is balanced or not, well I guess we'll just have to disagree. But the stats are on my side hehe<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well sentries are a joke...even as a player who likes to play aliens...I no longer fear them at all.
I would rather see sentries back to how they used to be and not have marines with mobility that used to be the domain of aliens.
Hard cap on sentries (similar to the limit that used to be applied to TF's in ns1) along with a decent buff for them is needed.
I like your chuckle at the end....I dont think either of us would try to say game stats really are showing much ;)
Always fun when marines pwn the aliens yet when the game ends you get the aliens win sequence....aaah good times.
Games are perhaps ore balanced but I would say marines have the edge now and it takes a very organized alien team to win....where marines now have it a lot easier.
Heck the fact I can actually kill things as a marine in this patch says to me there is something wrong...I am sh1t and old...nerves shot reflexes gone...yet I can easily break even on kill death as a marine (which is about 75% more kills than I deserve).
Its good to see the games heading in teh right direction, roll out exo....then we can really start arguing balance.
No, I think the 4 hive should stay as it is. Also if marines do a final push hoping to take down a hive and then they succeed in doing so, they may lose upgrades so the 4th hive can be a backup hive to quckly regain those upgrades and not wait for a new hive to grow.
That's why i like the idea of evolving it to a 2nd crag hive for access to regen and carapace. If you want celerity and adrenaline you would have to get a 2nd shift hive.
The only two questions would be if you are allowed to build a 2nd hive of a type before you have built the other 2 types. And if you are allowed to keep 2 crag hive abilities if you don't have 4 hives anymore.
get my meaning?