You can not make ppl use the minimap less by making it annoying to use. => Ppl still use it as much as ever. (with the little twist, that they are now filled with a bit of rage everytime they open it)
Fana made a suggestion that reduces information to field players => reducing the urge/requirement to look at it every few seconds you have time. (this is uwes goal, they dont want you to have to look at the minimap all the time)
There are not too many solutions to this problem other than reducing information on the map to fieldplayers (with the added benefit of enriching the commanders role a bit more - since he will still be able to see LOS stuff => can communicate it to his troops)
I think it could work fine, even tho it would be weird at first that you cant see the same stuff that the commander sees on the minimap.
edit: ofc there is also the option to just make a proper mini-minimap and hivesight? that actually gives useful information => there is less need to open the big map. (i.e. all i use it for is to look for spawning eggs while egg locking aliens)
(maybe also remove the 3s visibility after stuff went out of Los etc. to have less wtf moments - were you(or somebody else for you) see things that you didnt know were there.)
<!--quoteo(post=1967171:date=Aug 27 2012, 06:23 PM:name=Jaweese)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jaweese @ Aug 27 2012, 06:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967171"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and modify that list to display what he thinks you want to <b>REMOVE</b>.
But he mistakenly thinks that you want to remove e) and f).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah, thank you Jaweese. I'm thinking I was only confused on F though right? Fanatic did include scans in an FPS player's view, but not what is in range of an observatory.
Regardless, my point from the beginning was simply that I think all this information is important for the whole team to have. I do agree that just being in LOS of an enemy shouldn't permit seeing them on the map, they should literally be seen by a friendly (or parasited, or touching a friendly structure, etc.). But as I said, this is a fairly minor issue that may require more programming than its worth.
Again let me stress, I'm talking about PUB games only. This may very well work in clan matches, and may even work well. But in my opinion, this would drastically hurt PUB gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1967233:date=Aug 28 2012, 12:21 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Aug 28 2012, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967233"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ah, thank you Jaweese. I'm thinking I was only confused on F though right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Right, my mistake.
On the topic of visibility, how do you feel about the first person blink / cloaking / celerity effects? To me, those can be just as bad. Also, the "fake" gorge spit first person effect (ugh).
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1966661:date=Aug 25 2012, 02:39 PM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Aug 25 2012, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->d) The position and type of any enemy player touching a friendly structure (typically because they are attacking that structure).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1963025:date=Aug 14 2012, 11:16 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 14 2012, 11:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963025"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->d) An indicator showing you which friendly structures are under attack (with a more clear indication that the structure is under attack than the current blinking icon) (for clarity; it should not show what is attacking the structure, just that the structure is under attack).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1967495:date=Aug 28 2012, 04:56 PM:name=Jaweese)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jaweese @ Aug 28 2012, 04:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967495"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the topic of visibility, how do you feel about the first person blink / cloaking / celerity effects? To me, those can be just as bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, post updated.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
I actually disagree with that. I think if something is attacking a friendly player/structure they should show up both on the minimap and in comm view. One of the frustrating parts of comming is the fact that there is frequently 'invisible' aliens attacking structures. The whole limited vision system for the comm, while necessary to minimize impact on the FPS portion of the game, is thoroughly confusing for any RTS players (i.e. why can't I see the skulk that is attacking my RT?)
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1967599:date=Aug 28 2012, 07:38 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 28 2012, 07:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I actually disagree with that. I think if something is attacking a friendly player/structure they should show up both on the minimap and in comm view. One of the frustrating parts of comming is the fact that there is frequently 'invisible' aliens attacking structures. The whole limited vision system for the comm, while necessary to minimize impact on the FPS portion of the game, is thoroughly confusing for any RTS players (i.e. why can't I see the skulk that is attacking my RT?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've never said comms shouldn't be able to see the aliens/marines attacking their buildings.
<!--quoteo(post=1967599:date=Aug 28 2012, 08:38 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 28 2012, 08:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I actually disagree with that. I think if something is attacking a friendly player/structure they should show up both on the minimap and in comm view. One of the frustrating parts of comming is the fact that there is frequently 'invisible' aliens attacking structures. The whole limited vision system for the comm, while necessary to minimize impact on the FPS portion of the game, is thoroughly confusing for any RTS players (i.e. why can't I see the skulk that is attacking my RT?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i never noticed that in com-view, on the other hand i dont play much com. anyway, im certain, that fana never sayed anything about carrying over the minimap restrictions to the commander-view. im not even sure the minimap-restrictions are ment to carry over to the commanders minimap.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2012
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>4. The Lerk</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>4.1 The current situation</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
As of B217, the lerk has the following weapon configuration:
The major change in B217 from previous builds, was that the T1 alternate weapon (previously spores) was switched with the T2 weapon (previously spikes). The reason for this change was to give lerks the ability to combat shotguns before the second hive is up. Here's me quoting myself explaining why this change was necessary when I made the suggestion to swap the attacks:
<!--QuoteBegin-Fana+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fana)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My issue with the lerk, is that it becomes exceedingly difficult to play once the marines have shotguns. At 1 hive, the lerk only has access to two weapons, bite and spores, which are currently both melee weapons. Since both of the lerk's weapons are melee weapons, that means he has no other choice than to get into melee range if he wants to deal any damage. The problem with that is that shotguns are, naturally, very powerful in melee range.
Currently, the marines can get shotguns before any one alien can get enough res to go lerk, meaning that, potentially, the marine team could be kitted out with shotguns by the time the aliens get lerks. Since good commanders know this, a very common strategy is to upgrade shotguns quickly. In effect, that almost makes 1 hive lerks obsolete -- you're better off saving for fade than spending your res on getting a lerk, unless you significantly outskill the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Some pertinent facts: * The bite attack is 50 damage + <x> damage over time. * The spike attack has a max range of "30". * The spore attack is "crop duster" style -- melee range. * The umbra attack is a slow moving ranged cloud projectile. * Flapping your wings as Lerk (spacebar) currently uses a certain amount of energy (haven't checked the exact number in this build, but it was 3 in previous builds).
First off, we must define some basic principles regarding lerk gameplay, that irrevocably lead to certain conclusions and limit lerk weapon and movement design: 1. The lerk is a fast moving, agile and vulnerable lifeform. 2. The lerk should not be hard countered (or effectively hard countered) by any marine research or weapons. 3. The lerk is the alien "bridge class" between skulks and fades, giving it an important role in boosting alien efficiency in the early game, at the cost of not being able to field as many fades in the mid game or oni in the late game. 4. The lerk should, together with the gorge, in part serve as an alien support class. It shouldn't be solely support, but it should have a support function together with its other functions.
To comply with point 2, the lerk needs to have one melee attack and one ranged attack on tier1. That is the only way to avoid marine shotguns effectively being a hard counter to lerks. This limits the choices for lerk t1 attacks to the following combinations:
Option A: melee bite and ranged spikes. Option B: melee bite and ranged spores. Option C: ranged spikes and melee spores. Option D: melee spikes (shotgun/burstfire) and ranged spores.
In order to comply with point 4, one of the t1 attacks should ideally be a support attack, but giving the lerk support attacks on t2 and t3 will at least fulfill this principle for parts of most rounds.
<!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>4.3 The problem</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The lerk is currently a very inefficient lifeform. Players and teams who are "playing to win" have no reason to evolve lerk instead of saving for fade. Even without the possibility of a fade on the horizon, it is doubtful if evolving lerk is a net benefit -- even good lerk players will likely contribute more to the team as a skulk, provided they are also good at playing skulk.
The cause for the lerk inefficiency is easy to identify: Its offensive weapons deal too little damage too slowly. Because the bite has a DOT effect, its instant damage output is modest and its rate of fire is glacial. Spores are currently more or less useless: Yes, you can hinder marines and cause some economic damage, but its effects are simply not powerful enough compared to the time required to inflict them on the marines. Spikes require a more thorough explanation however.
Since the current spike model is "rapid fire hitscan" -- comparable to the marine rifle -- using it to deal damage requires that the lerk keeps the crosshair steady on the target. Doing that, however, requires the lerk to move in a certain manner for it to be possible for the lerk player to "track" the target and keep the crosshair steady on it. Since a lerk that is moving in a predictable fashion, either by going straight towards the marine, by moving slowly, by hovering or by being stationary, is a lerk that is easy to hit, there is only one effective way for lerks to move, outside of ambush situations (gliding silently behind a marine who doesn't check his six regularly): Rapid, erratic, horizontal and vertical momentum shifts. Moving in this fashion requires a lot of flapping however, which uses energy. Spikes also consume energy. At the moment, the lerk simply doesn't have enough energy to sustain any sort of effective attack, even against a solo marine.
A different issue that bears mentioning, is that having the melee attack on mouse1 (bite) and ranged attack on mouse2 (spikes) is unnatural for most players and feels awkward.
There is also the potential problem that ranged rapid fire spikes makes for combat that is too reminiscent of human vs. human shooting, which clashes with the asymmetric theme of the two teams.
Furthermore, a maximum range limitation on spikes has serious problems with player feedback. A ranged attack suddenly doing little or no damage with little or no visual indication of why, is highly unintuitive. It is confusing for the players because the reason why they aren't doing damage isn't immediately visible to them. The maximum range for spikes (30) is also, as far as I know, currently shorter than that of the shotgun (45), which potentially re-introduces the problem of the shotgun effectively being a hard counter to lerks.
<!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>4.4 The suggested solution</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
My suggestion is to change the lerk weapon configuration to the following: T1: Bite (thanks RedDragon). T1 (altfire): Spore spikes. T2: Umbra spikes. T3: Anti-armor spikes (needs a better name).
Bite: Complete redesign. In order to work as the primary damage dealing ability for the lerk, it needs a significantly higher DPS. It should have a higher ROF (slightly faster than the skulk bite) and no DOT. This would mimic the lerk gameplay from NS, but without the vent camping (due to the suggestions below) and a better flight model (the NS2 flight model is very nice, kudos UWE and twilite).
Spore spikes: Hitscan spikes are fired at a moderately fast rate of fire, with a relatively low energy cost for each spike. Each spike explodes into a small spore cloud upon impact or after a certain distance in the air. This model requires lerks to actively shoot spikes over time to cover an area with spores, which, coupled with the max range before exploding, prevents lerks from using them from the safety of vents or other hiding places. Any spore spike that hits a marine before exploding should deal direct DOT on the marine, similar to the current bite, but without any direct damage, in addition to exploding into a spore cloud.
Umbra spikes: Large projectile (non-hitscan) semi-automatic spikes are fired at a very slow rate of fire, with a high energy cost for each spike. Each spike explodes into a large umbra cloud after a set amount of time (this is effectively a maximum range limitation which prevents lerks from constantly using them while in the safety of vents or other hiding places). If the projectile hits a structure or surface before the timer runs out, it should embed itself in that surface until it explodes. If the projectile hits a marine player, it should do some instant damage to the marine (25?) and instantly explode. It should be possible for marines to shoot the spike projectile, either when it is in the air or embedded in a surface, thereby making it explode prematurely (this gives marines another opportunity to avoid the projectile and umbra, rather than simply dodging the projectile or moving out of the umbra cloud). The projectile should move slow enough that it is possible to hit it, but fast enough that it is difficult.
Anti-armor spikes: A somewhat slower ROF and slightly more accurate version of the current T1 spikes. This would be a game-ender attack that helps aliens break sieges and destroy heavy marine equipment (exos! arcs!). It should do significant DPS, especially against armor. The current spike graphics can be re-used, with some tweaks for more oomph.
<!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>4.5 The alternative "easy way out" solution</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
1. Keep the current weapon configuration. 2. Remove the flap energy cost or significantly decrease flap and spike energy costs. 3. Drastically increase bite rate of fire, remove damage over time and drastically increase bite energy cost. 4. Increase spore damage and radius.
The preferable way to limit the effective range of hitscan weapons, is to tweak their spread, not their maximum range. Ideally, there would be no maximum range, just a spread that makes the weapon inflict increasingly fewer hits the further it is from the target.
This solution would at least make the lerk worth evolving, with a minimum of development effort required, which is preferable to the way it currently is. It does taste of disappointment and missed opportunities, however. This might be the only way to make the lerk playable in time for release though, since UWE seem to be in feature lock and are desperately stretched for time. Perhaps my real suggestion can be implemented in a later patch instead; I think it would add a lot more depth and gameplay viability for the lerk than the current design.
Personally I wouldn't relegate Lerks to Support. They are less effectual at direct engagements (contrasted to Fades and Skulks), and are not as expendable as Skulks, but their harassment coupled with flying can allow them to be quite effective at hit-and-run combat. At least in NS1.
EDIT: I still have nightmares about one of my friend's ability to completely crush a squad with a focus Lerk and Spores.
I agree that in NS2 the Spikes + Flying is difficult to pull off properly. Bringing back an AoE ranged attack imo is the safest change. The rapid fire spikes you suggest would be interesting gameplaywise and give a nice mix of hitscan targetting and spray-while-flying. The slower projecticle version feels more like the NS1 format, and requires camping from range or flying overhead and dropping it into a cluster of Marines. A tried and true solution imo.
I strongly dislike removing flap energy cost. Part of the fun of learning to Lerk is to effectively mix in flaps with glides to get around the map. It's the unique aspect of the Lerk, and I'd hate to see it dimished to spam-spacebar.
I think Im missing something, spikes seem really not good at... anything. So you fly past a guy and bite him, then what? I cant hang around and spikes him because Ill get destroyed. Their only use seems to be shooting buildings from vents for tiny damage or vaguely annoying jetpackers until they spot and instakill you. For a 30 res lifeform it really feels.... just so average. I dont see why I would take it over saving for a fade, even without blink
A well worded and thoughtful analysis, Fanatic, but I just wanted to add that, while your multi-role spike idea is interesting, I don't think we should remove the Lerk's bite from the game. As you said, Lerks are very mobile, and very agile, and while I agree they are a "bridge" class, relegating them to a completely ranged role, support or otherwise, greatly diminishes the value of thier mobility.
If you can do everything from the safety of range, whats the point of being extremely mobile other than to reduce travel time?
I've always been a huge fan of the Lerk and its fast paced playstyle, but poping in and out of vents to harass things is very boring. You may recall that Bite was actually removed in NS1 for the 2.0 version of the game. It was ultimately reintroduced because a pure ranged support class isn't very interesting.
If spikes were more like harpoons, then the lerk might be more like a sniper, which would, I suppose, make more sense for the ranged attacked/support class. Mind you, I think that's a terrible idea, and I agree that its too much like human vs human fighting to be interesting. My point is only that there's no reason for it to be able to fly and travel as it does, if all it does is attack from afar. Like the skulks, speed and mobility are necessary as gap closers.
Good suggestions overall though, I like the idea of tying the other abilities to some sort of spike-like attack.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1968926:date=Aug 30 2012, 05:55 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Aug 30 2012, 05:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968926"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think we should remove the Lerk's bite from the game. As you said, Lerks are very mobile, and very agile, and while I agree they are a "bridge" class, relegating them to a completely ranged role, support or otherwise, greatly diminishes the value of thier mobility.
If you can do everything from the safety of range, whats the point of being extremely mobile other than to reduce travel time?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, this is reasonable.<strike> I, and other posters, have suggested a return of the NS lerk bite mechanic or a close range spike attack ("shotgun spikes") during previous lerk discussions, but haven't had much luck. Ideally, I would like the lerk to have one melee direct damage attack and one DOT AOE support attack on t1, but trying to convince UWE that the current lerk bite doesn't work (far too low DPS) has proven to be difficult, so spikes, which at least work, seems more likely to succeed.
I've added ""T1: Spikes" could potentially be changed to "T1: Bite" if bite went through a major revision. It would need higher ROF (slightly faster than the skulk bite), higher instant damage (60?) and no DOT. This would mimic the lerk gameplay from NS, but without the vent camping (due to the suggestions below) and a better flight model (the NS2 flight model is very nice, kudos UWE and twilite)." to the post, just below point 4.4.</strike>
EDIT: I thought about this for a while and decided to change my suggestion, thanks.
I agree that the bite could do with being more effective for the resource investment the lerk represents, as well as its being very fragile, presently the lifeform just doesnt seem to pack much of a punch.
But in all fairness, I can understand why the Devs nerfed the Lerks bite from the way it was in NS. Truth be told, I used to solo entire teams as a Lerk, using nothing but bite (and umbra if we got to late game). The only reason it wasnt a huge issue was because there were so few people who took the time to figure out how to fly as the Lerk.
But with the flying mechanic being as excellent as it is now, I can easily see how it would be easy to dominate marines with it once again. Actually, if I remember right, I think maybe you mentioned something about that being a problem in earlier versions? Or maybe someone else did. Or maybe I'm crazy. Whatever.
The point is, I agree that it seems too weak at the moment, but maybe only increasing its direct damage, and leaving the attack speed as it is would be sufficent. I think that might encourage more hit and run tactics, while still making it more meaningful to risk getting a face full of shotgun for a kill.
That, or spikes needs some tweaking so lerks can more effectively soften marines up.
Edit: Cool. Constructive Dialog is great isnt it? ;-)
<strike>Would giving the various spore projectiles timers really affect the lerk-in-the-vent problem? Most vents are quite close to where the marines want to set up shop (or are forced to in the case of spawns), so anything that allows a range of more than an onos' length seems like it'd be ineffectual - generally vent-lerks would duck behind a corner to avoid fire rather than be too far away in the first place.
I certainly don't want ventilerks back, especially since we'd need to reintroduce handgrenades just for that specific purpose...</strike>
EDIT: Oops, should have refreshed the page. Rapid-fire minispore sounds like it'd do the trick, since it would require longer exposure to be any good.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1968959:date=Aug 30 2012, 07:18 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Aug 30 2012, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968959"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rapid-fire minispore sounds like it'd do the trick, since it would require longer exposure to be any good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, that's the idea. The suggested spore spikes will not only require the lerk to go mid-range to deliver them, but it will require the lerk to stay mid-range over time, visible, to shoot the spikes around the room. This should make vent-camping suicidal, since you would have to sit in the opening over time to be able to deliver the spore spikess.
The only small issue i would have with the suggested spikes is that it might be a bit unintuitive having spore/anti-armour hitscan but umbra as projectile. Other than that, it sounds really quite nice and hopefully UWE tries it out atleast in some prototype form!
I'm curious as to what you mean exactly by the poison spikes applying a dot when hitting a marine as well. Do you mean that instead of doing say 25 damage instantly, each hit poison spike adds a separate stacking dot that ticks for 25 over a duration? Does this damage armour? Or do you mean like the poison bite dot that refreshes and bypasses armour.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1969002:date=Aug 30 2012, 09:23 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Aug 30 2012, 09:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm curious as to what you mean exactly by the poison spikes applying a dot when hitting a marine as well. Do you mean that instead of doing say 25 damage instantly, each hit poison spike adds a separate stacking dot that ticks for 25 over a duration? Does this damage armour? Or do you mean like the poison bite dot that refreshes and bypasses armour.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but much lower damage for each spike. More like five total damage over five seconds for each spike? I'm not sure about the exact number, but it should be low enough that it isn't useful for directly killing marines. The spores spikes should be a support weapon; you use it to weaken marines to make it easier for the other players to kill them and to drain the marine economy by forcing medpacks.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
i will look at the poison spike at idea from a more technical perspective. basically what this would change is reintroduce ranged spores (which afflict a dot on direct impact with a marine). there were numerous reasons to make spores the way they are right now, but i don't want to discuss those now. so for the technical side: this is not simply doable. the amount of effects, network traffic and additional cpu time would be quite big, and we are currently focusing on optimization. you would need to at least triple the amount of spore entities to make that look ok and realistic, which would be really counter productive. for prototyping this would be fine, but right now it's the wrong time to add something like this. it's not that difficult to write such a mod for testing the ideas.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1969013:date=Aug 30 2012, 09:54 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Aug 30 2012, 09:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so for the technical side: this is not simply doable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Where there's a will there's a way. If you really wanted to do it, I'm sure you would find a way. I don't actually expect any of my ideas to appear in the game, though? It would be nice, and I think gameplay would benefit from it, but I'm just a voice in the middle of a hurricane after all.
For the spike spores idea, couldnt you do it in a way similar to this:
Shooting an area without spores would create a sporecloud - depending if you shoot into this area the sporecloud would expand or shrink/disappear after X seconds? => less particle effects needed. So its kinda similar to a "gorge healing a structure"...
Also other lerks that shoot your spore cloud would contribute to it and not create an additional one (ofc it should have some maximum size)
Tho i guess its still way too much compared to the current spores, and has the potential to not be able to deliver spores precise enough to an area at every given time. (e.g. you might have wanted to create a cloud instead of contributing the an old one etc.)
edit: Tempted to delete the crap i wrote, but whatever... maybe it leads to better ideas :P
Couldnt you just adjust the spike firerate to be exactly the same as the rate of spawning new spore clouds is right now, and instead of spawning the spores from the lerk, they just spawn at the spikes impact spot.
This way you wouldnt need to add a single extra sporecloud, compared to what we have now, to make it work. Or maybe the trailing spores have some extra magic going on that helps to optimize it, i dont know.
I think this blog should expand to the topic of gorge/khamm role. It could go something like:
1. Situation and background: Khamm was introduced together with aliens tres for the game to scale better with different player numbers.
2. Problem: What a hell is the gorge supposed to do?
3. Suggestion: Make the roles more clear and obvious.
Of all of those problems you have touched so far, I for one think this is one of the most important. Talking about "<i>5. Interlude: Awards/medals</i>." seems not as important as the other things you highlighted.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1969029:date=Aug 30 2012, 05:50 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 30 2012, 05:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969029"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where there's a will there's a way. If you really wanted to do it, I'm sure you would find a way. I don't actually expect any of my ideas to appear in the game, though? It would be nice, and I think gameplay would benefit from it, but I'm just a voice in the middle of a hurricane after all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's true, and such feature would need anyway multiple iterations before you have a prototype which actually works the way you want. then you need to find a clever way to deal with the problems i described. that all takes quite some time, which i don't have, so this is something where a mod would be optimal. maybe you find somebody to code it and test it with you. before that, it's difficult to say if the gameplay part of the idea would actually work. i had dozens of ideas implemented (before i started to work for uwe), which 90% failed because of game play and technical issues. during the past 10 months i got some experience in judging features for NS2, and for this one i have already initial concerns. only with an actual implementation you can prove me wrong
Shim I liked the idea of your mod, even though it was all over the place. But putting those ideas on the same shelf as "emergency before release" input from one of the best and most experienced NS1 players is... ambitious- at best.
Tell him its too late for the suggested changes or whatever. But watching the back and forth on this thread is like watching Michael Schumacher be schooled on car driving.
<!--quoteo(post=1968891:date=Aug 30 2012, 09:43 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 30 2012, 09:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968891"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>4.5 The alternative "easy way out" solution</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
1. Keep the current weapon configuration. 2. Remove the flap energy cost or significantly decrease flap and spike energy costs. 3. Drastically increase bite rate of fire, remove damage over time and drastically increase bite energy cost. 4. Increase spore damage and radius.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would prefer to see this first, before your more radical design.
However just to keep the lerk bite interesting (I don't want skulk duplication), how about make the lerk bite into a vampire attack? Same damage as skulk, low RoF but steals health. Should give lerk more staying power instead of having to fly back to hive after every crop dust.
<!--quoteo(post=1975097:date=Sep 10 2012, 10:35 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Sep 10 2012, 10:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975097"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would prefer to see this first, before your more radical design.
However just to keep the lerk bite interesting (I don't want skulk duplication), how about make the lerk bite into a vampire attack? Same damage as skulk, low RoF but steals health. Should give lerk more staying power instead of having to fly back to hive after every crop dust.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->I don't know about the vampiric attack, it brings me back the the cringe-worthy frenzy upgrade. The rest sounds good, though I was thinking that a good idea might be to make a compromise on the old ranged spores and the god awful crop dusting. Take lerk bilebomb it used to have and have it create a large spore cloud instead, at least double the radius of the current trail. Sporebombs would keep the lerk from hiding while it spored or having to get within shotgun face removal range of a marine to spread it's spores. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Comments
=> Ppl still use it as much as ever. (with the little twist, that they are now filled with a bit of rage everytime they open it)
Fana made a suggestion that reduces information to field players => reducing the urge/requirement to look at it every few seconds you have time. (this is uwes goal, they dont want you to have to look at the minimap all the time)
There are not too many solutions to this problem other than reducing information on the map to fieldplayers (with the added benefit of enriching the commanders role a bit more - since he will still be able to see LOS stuff => can communicate it to his troops)
I think it could work fine, even tho it would be weird at first that you cant see the same stuff that the commander sees on the minimap.
edit: ofc there is also the option to just make a proper mini-minimap and hivesight? that actually gives useful information => there is less need to open the big map.
(i.e. all i use it for is to look for spawning eggs while egg locking aliens)
(maybe also remove the 3s visibility after stuff went out of Los etc. to have less wtf moments - were you(or somebody else for you) see things that you didnt know were there.)
But he mistakenly thinks that you want to remove e) and f).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, thank you Jaweese. I'm thinking I was only confused on F though right? Fanatic did include scans in an FPS player's view, but not what is in range of an observatory.
Regardless, my point from the beginning was simply that I think all this information is important for the whole team to have. I do agree that just being in LOS of an enemy shouldn't permit seeing them on the map, they should literally be seen by a friendly (or parasited, or touching a friendly structure, etc.). But as I said, this is a fairly minor issue that may require more programming than its worth.
Again let me stress, I'm talking about PUB games only. This may very well work in clan matches, and may even work well. But in my opinion, this would drastically hurt PUB gameplay.
Right, my mistake.
On the topic of visibility, how do you feel about the first person blink / cloaking / celerity effects? To me, those can be just as bad. Also, the "fake" gorge spit first person effect (ugh).
<!--quoteo(post=1963025:date=Aug 14 2012, 11:16 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 14 2012, 11:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963025"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->d) An indicator showing you which friendly structures are under attack (with a more clear indication that the structure is under attack than the current blinking icon) (for clarity; it should not show what is attacking the structure, just that the structure is under attack).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1967495:date=Aug 28 2012, 04:56 PM:name=Jaweese)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jaweese @ Aug 28 2012, 04:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967495"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the topic of visibility, how do you feel about the first person blink / cloaking / celerity effects? To me, those can be just as bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, post updated.
I've never said comms shouldn't be able to see the aliens/marines attacking their buildings.
i never noticed that in com-view, on the other hand i dont play much com.
anyway, im certain, that fana never sayed anything about carrying over the minimap restrictions to the commander-view.
im not even sure the minimap-restrictions are ment to carry over to the commanders minimap.
<!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>4.1 The current situation</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
As of B217, the lerk has the following weapon configuration:
T1: Bite.
T1 (altfire): Spikes.
T2: Spores.
T3: Projectile umbra.
The major change in B217 from previous builds, was that the T1 alternate weapon (previously spores) was switched with the T2 weapon (previously spikes). The reason for this change was to give lerks the ability to combat shotguns before the second hive is up. Here's me quoting myself explaining why this change was necessary when I made the suggestion to swap the attacks:
<!--QuoteBegin-Fana+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fana)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My issue with the lerk, is that it becomes exceedingly difficult to play once the marines have shotguns. At 1 hive, the lerk only has access to two weapons, bite and spores, which are currently both melee weapons. Since both of the lerk's weapons are melee weapons, that means he has no other choice than to get into melee range if he wants to deal any damage. The problem with that is that shotguns are, naturally, very powerful in melee range.
Currently, the marines can get shotguns before any one alien can get enough res to go lerk, meaning that, potentially, the marine team could be kitted out with shotguns by the time the aliens get lerks. Since good commanders know this, a very common strategy is to upgrade shotguns quickly. In effect, that almost makes 1 hive lerks obsolete -- you're better off saving for fade than spending your res on getting a lerk, unless you significantly outskill the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some pertinent facts:
* The bite attack is 50 damage + <x> damage over time.
* The spike attack has a max range of "30".
* The spore attack is "crop duster" style -- melee range.
* The umbra attack is a slow moving ranged cloud projectile.
* Flapping your wings as Lerk (spacebar) currently uses a certain amount of energy (haven't checked the exact number in this build, but it was 3 in previous builds).
<!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>4.2 Clarifications</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
First off, we must define some basic principles regarding lerk gameplay, that irrevocably lead to certain conclusions and limit lerk weapon and movement design:
1. The lerk is a fast moving, agile and vulnerable lifeform.
2. The lerk should not be hard countered (or effectively hard countered) by any marine research or weapons.
3. The lerk is the alien "bridge class" between skulks and fades, giving it an important role in boosting alien efficiency in the early game, at the cost of not being able to field as many fades in the mid game or oni in the late game.
4. The lerk should, together with the gorge, in part serve as an alien support class. It shouldn't be solely support, but it should have a support function together with its other functions.
To comply with point 2, the lerk needs to have one melee attack and one ranged attack on tier1. That is the only way to avoid marine shotguns effectively being a hard counter to lerks. This limits the choices for lerk t1 attacks to the following combinations:
Option A: melee bite and ranged spikes.
Option B: melee bite and ranged spores.
Option C: ranged spikes and melee spores.
Option D: melee spikes (shotgun/burstfire) and ranged spores.
In order to comply with point 4, one of the t1 attacks should ideally be a support attack, but giving the lerk support attacks on t2 and t3 will at least fulfill this principle for parts of most rounds.
<!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>4.3 The problem</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The lerk is currently a very inefficient lifeform. Players and teams who are "playing to win" have no reason to evolve lerk instead of saving for fade. Even without the possibility of a fade on the horizon, it is doubtful if evolving lerk is a net benefit -- even good lerk players will likely contribute more to the team as a skulk, provided they are also good at playing skulk.
The cause for the lerk inefficiency is easy to identify: Its offensive weapons deal too little damage too slowly. Because the bite has a DOT effect, its instant damage output is modest and its rate of fire is glacial. Spores are currently more or less useless: Yes, you can hinder marines and cause some economic damage, but its effects are simply not powerful enough compared to the time required to inflict them on the marines. Spikes require a more thorough explanation however.
Since the current spike model is "rapid fire hitscan" -- comparable to the marine rifle -- using it to deal damage requires that the lerk keeps the crosshair steady on the target. Doing that, however, requires the lerk to move in a certain manner for it to be possible for the lerk player to "track" the target and keep the crosshair steady on it. Since a lerk that is moving in a predictable fashion, either by going straight towards the marine, by moving slowly, by hovering or by being stationary, is a lerk that is easy to hit, there is only one effective way for lerks to move, outside of ambush situations (gliding silently behind a marine who doesn't check his six regularly): Rapid, erratic, horizontal and vertical momentum shifts. Moving in this fashion requires a lot of flapping however, which uses energy. Spikes also consume energy. At the moment, the lerk simply doesn't have enough energy to sustain any sort of effective attack, even against a solo marine.
A different issue that bears mentioning, is that having the melee attack on mouse1 (bite) and ranged attack on mouse2 (spikes) is unnatural for most players and feels awkward.
There is also the potential problem that ranged rapid fire spikes makes for combat that is too reminiscent of human vs. human shooting, which clashes with the asymmetric theme of the two teams.
Furthermore, a maximum range limitation on spikes has serious problems with player feedback. A ranged attack suddenly doing little or no damage with little or no visual indication of why, is highly unintuitive. It is confusing for the players because the reason why they aren't doing damage isn't immediately visible to them. The maximum range for spikes (30) is also, as far as I know, currently shorter than that of the shotgun (45), which potentially re-introduces the problem of the shotgun effectively being a hard counter to lerks.
<!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>4.4 The suggested solution</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
My suggestion is to change the lerk weapon configuration to the following:
T1: Bite (thanks RedDragon).
T1 (altfire): Spore spikes.
T2: Umbra spikes.
T3: Anti-armor spikes (needs a better name).
Bite: Complete redesign. In order to work as the primary damage dealing ability for the lerk, it needs a significantly higher DPS. It should have a higher ROF (slightly faster than the skulk bite) and no DOT. This would mimic the lerk gameplay from NS, but without the vent camping (due to the suggestions below) and a better flight model (the NS2 flight model is very nice, kudos UWE and twilite).
Spore spikes: Hitscan spikes are fired at a moderately fast rate of fire, with a relatively low energy cost for each spike. Each spike explodes into a small spore cloud upon impact or after a certain distance in the air. This model requires lerks to actively shoot spikes over time to cover an area with spores, which, coupled with the max range before exploding, prevents lerks from using them from the safety of vents or other hiding places. Any spore spike that hits a marine before exploding should deal direct DOT on the marine, similar to the current bite, but without any direct damage, in addition to exploding into a spore cloud.
Umbra spikes: Large projectile (non-hitscan) semi-automatic spikes are fired at a very slow rate of fire, with a high energy cost for each spike. Each spike explodes into a large umbra cloud after a set amount of time (this is effectively a maximum range limitation which prevents lerks from constantly using them while in the safety of vents or other hiding places). If the projectile hits a structure or surface before the timer runs out, it should embed itself in that surface until it explodes. If the projectile hits a marine player, it should do some instant damage to the marine (25?) and instantly explode. It should be possible for marines to shoot the spike projectile, either when it is in the air or embedded in a surface, thereby making it explode prematurely (this gives marines another opportunity to avoid the projectile and umbra, rather than simply dodging the projectile or moving out of the umbra cloud). The projectile should move slow enough that it is possible to hit it, but fast enough that it is difficult.
Anti-armor spikes: A somewhat slower ROF and slightly more accurate version of the current T1 spikes. This would be a game-ender attack that helps aliens break sieges and destroy heavy marine equipment (exos! arcs!). It should do significant DPS, especially against armor. The current spike graphics can be re-used, with some tweaks for more oomph.
<!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>4.5 The alternative "easy way out" solution</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
1. Keep the current weapon configuration.
2. Remove the flap energy cost or significantly decrease flap and spike energy costs.
3. Drastically increase bite rate of fire, remove damage over time and drastically increase bite energy cost.
4. Increase spore damage and radius.
The preferable way to limit the effective range of hitscan weapons, is to tweak their spread, not their maximum range. Ideally, there would be no maximum range, just a spread that makes the weapon inflict increasingly fewer hits the further it is from the target.
This solution would at least make the lerk worth evolving, with a minimum of development effort required, which is preferable to the way it currently is. It does taste of disappointment and missed opportunities, however. This might be the only way to make the lerk playable in time for release though, since UWE seem to be in feature lock and are desperately stretched for time. Perhaps my real suggestion can be implemented in a later patch instead; I think it would add a lot more depth and gameplay viability for the lerk than the current design.
EDIT: I still have nightmares about one of my friend's ability to completely crush a squad with a focus Lerk and Spores.
I agree that in NS2 the Spikes + Flying is difficult to pull off properly. Bringing back an AoE ranged attack imo is the safest change. The rapid fire spikes you suggest would be interesting gameplaywise and give a nice mix of hitscan targetting and spray-while-flying. The slower projecticle version feels more like the NS1 format, and requires camping from range or flying overhead and dropping it into a cluster of Marines. A tried and true solution imo.
I strongly dislike removing flap energy cost. Part of the fun of learning to Lerk is to effectively mix in flaps with glides to get around the map. It's the unique aspect of the Lerk, and I'd hate to see it dimished to spam-spacebar.
If you can do everything from the safety of range, whats the point of being extremely mobile other than to reduce travel time?
I've always been a huge fan of the Lerk and its fast paced playstyle, but poping in and out of vents to harass things is very boring. You may recall that Bite was actually removed in NS1 for the 2.0 version of the game. It was ultimately reintroduced because a pure ranged support class isn't very interesting.
If spikes were more like harpoons, then the lerk might be more like a sniper, which would, I suppose, make more sense for the ranged attacked/support class. Mind you, I think that's a terrible idea, and I agree that its too much like human vs human fighting to be interesting. My point is only that there's no reason for it to be able to fly and travel as it does, if all it does is attack from afar. Like the skulks, speed and mobility are necessary as gap closers.
Good suggestions overall though, I like the idea of tying the other abilities to some sort of spike-like attack.
If you can do everything from the safety of range, whats the point of being extremely mobile other than to reduce travel time?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, this is reasonable.<strike> I, and other posters, have suggested a return of the NS lerk bite mechanic or a close range spike attack ("shotgun spikes") during previous lerk discussions, but haven't had much luck. Ideally, I would like the lerk to have one melee direct damage attack and one DOT AOE support attack on t1, but trying to convince UWE that the current lerk bite doesn't work (far too low DPS) has proven to be difficult, so spikes, which at least work, seems more likely to succeed.
I've added ""T1: Spikes" could potentially be changed to "T1: Bite" if bite went through a major revision. It would need higher ROF (slightly faster than the skulk bite), higher instant damage (60?) and no DOT. This would mimic the lerk gameplay from NS, but without the vent camping (due to the suggestions below) and a better flight model (the NS2 flight model is very nice, kudos UWE and twilite)." to the post, just below point 4.4.</strike>
EDIT: I thought about this for a while and decided to change my suggestion, thanks.
EDIT2: Unified the spore spike/umbra suggestions.
But in all fairness, I can understand why the Devs nerfed the Lerks bite from the way it was in NS. Truth be told, I used to solo entire teams as a Lerk, using nothing but bite (and umbra if we got to late game). The only reason it wasnt a huge issue was because there were so few people who took the time to figure out how to fly as the Lerk.
But with the flying mechanic being as excellent as it is now, I can easily see how it would be easy to dominate marines with it once again. Actually, if I remember right, I think maybe you mentioned something about that being a problem in earlier versions? Or maybe someone else did. Or maybe I'm crazy. Whatever.
The point is, I agree that it seems too weak at the moment, but maybe only increasing its direct damage, and leaving the attack speed as it is would be sufficent. I think that might encourage more hit and run tactics, while still making it more meaningful to risk getting a face full of shotgun for a kill.
That, or spikes needs some tweaking so lerks can more effectively soften marines up.
Edit: Cool. Constructive Dialog is great isnt it? ;-)
I certainly don't want ventilerks back, especially since we'd need to reintroduce handgrenades just for that specific purpose...</strike>
EDIT: Oops, should have refreshed the page.
Rapid-fire minispore sounds like it'd do the trick, since it would require longer exposure to be any good.
Yeah, that's the idea. The suggested spore spikes will not only require the lerk to go mid-range to deliver them, but it will require the lerk to stay mid-range over time, visible, to shoot the spikes around the room. This should make vent-camping suicidal, since you would have to sit in the opening over time to be able to deliver the spore spikess.
I'm curious as to what you mean exactly by the poison spikes applying a dot when hitting a marine as well. Do you mean that instead of doing say 25 damage instantly, each hit poison spike adds a separate stacking dot that ticks for 25 over a duration? Does this damage armour? Or do you mean like the poison bite dot that refreshes and bypasses armour.
Also agree with quick fix solution.
Yes, but much lower damage for each spike. More like five total damage over five seconds for each spike? I'm not sure about the exact number, but it should be low enough that it isn't useful for directly killing marines. The spores spikes should be a support weapon; you use it to weaken marines to make it easier for the other players to kill them and to drain the marine economy by forcing medpacks.
Where there's a will there's a way. If you really wanted to do it, I'm sure you would find a way. I don't actually expect any of my ideas to appear in the game, though? It would be nice, and I think gameplay would benefit from it, but I'm just a voice in the middle of a hurricane after all.
Shooting an area without spores would create a sporecloud - depending if you shoot into this area the sporecloud would expand or shrink/disappear after X seconds? => less particle effects needed. So its kinda similar to a "gorge healing a structure"...
Also other lerks that shoot your spore cloud would contribute to it and not create an additional one (ofc it should have some maximum size)
Tho i guess its still way too much compared to the current spores, and has the potential to not be able to deliver spores precise enough to an area at every given time. (e.g. you might have wanted to create a cloud instead of contributing the an old one etc.)
edit: Tempted to delete the crap i wrote, but whatever... maybe it leads to better ideas :P
This way you wouldnt need to add a single extra sporecloud, compared to what we have now, to make it work. Or maybe the trailing spores have some extra magic going on that helps to optimize it, i dont know.
1. Situation and background:
Khamm was introduced together with aliens tres for the game to scale better with different player numbers.
2. Problem:
What a hell is the gorge supposed to do?
3. Suggestion:
Make the roles more clear and obvious.
Of all of those problems you have touched so far, I for one think this is one of the most important. Talking about "<i>5. Interlude: Awards/medals</i>." seems not as important as the other things you highlighted.
that's true, and such feature would need anyway multiple iterations before you have a prototype which actually works the way you want. then you need to find a clever way to deal with the problems i described. that all takes quite some time, which i don't have, so this is something where a mod would be optimal. maybe you find somebody to code it and test it with you. before that, it's difficult to say if the gameplay part of the idea would actually work. i had dozens of ideas implemented (before i started to work for uwe), which 90% failed because of game play and technical issues. during the past 10 months i got some experience in judging features for NS2, and for this one i have already initial concerns. only with an actual implementation you can prove me wrong
Tell him its too late for the suggested changes or whatever. But watching the back and forth on this thread is like watching Michael Schumacher be schooled on car driving.
1. Keep the current weapon configuration.
2. Remove the flap energy cost or significantly decrease flap and spike energy costs.
3. Drastically increase bite rate of fire, remove damage over time and drastically increase bite energy cost.
4. Increase spore damage and radius.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would prefer to see this first, before your more radical design.
However just to keep the lerk bite interesting (I don't want skulk duplication), how about make the lerk bite into a vampire attack? Same damage as skulk, low RoF but steals health. Should give lerk more staying power instead of having to fly back to hive after every crop dust.
However just to keep the lerk bite interesting (I don't want skulk duplication), how about make the lerk bite into a vampire attack? Same damage as skulk, low RoF but steals health. Should give lerk more staying power instead of having to fly back to hive after every crop dust.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->I don't know about the vampiric attack, it brings me back the the cringe-worthy frenzy upgrade. The rest sounds good, though I was thinking that a good idea might be to make a compromise on the old ranged spores and the god awful crop dusting. Take lerk bilebomb it used to have and have it create a large spore cloud instead, at least double the radius of the current trail. Sporebombs would keep the lerk from hiding while it spored or having to get within shotgun face removal range of a marine to spread it's spores. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->