<!--quoteo(post=1966801:date=Aug 26 2012, 03:13 PM:name=Zomb3h)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zomb3h @ Aug 26 2012, 03:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966801"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 without power nodes = more turtling waiting to be invited.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simple, increase marine spawn time back to normal levels.
<!--quoteo(post=1966741:date=Aug 25 2012, 04:17 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Aug 25 2012, 04:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966741"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Watching that predicament replay a few times I think I would say the loss was much more due to human error and less due to game balance revolving around p-nodes. Not trying to knock you guys at all, but that is what I see looking at it objectively.
It's at 2:43 ish on <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/329919238" target="_blank">this video</a> if anyone wants to rewatch that moment btw.
If anything I think one thing that would be worth trying for marines is to be able to buy an upgrade for a power node to make it either more damage resistant or something similar to the NS1 Electrify RT (electrify p-node?). But I would say that a CC has to be present in a room to be able to upgrade a p-node... that would make marine main base more resistant to surprise rushes like this, especially when alien khams start getting better at using Enzyme with these 3-4 skulk rushes marines will have possibly too little time to react.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd have to disagree. Realistically if you count communication and response time, even with nano shield the beacon wouldn't have finished in time.
<!--quoteo(post=1966779:date=Aug 25 2012, 07:04 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Aug 25 2012, 07:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, when I say 'exciting', I don't mean to imply that any player with an ounce of competitive experience likes defending a win-button made out of glass.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah it's funny. I saw the more knowledgeable people in the twitch chat talking about win buttons, and then all the randoms saying how power node gameplay is great because of things like this.
<!--quoteo(post=1966796:date=Aug 25 2012, 09:12 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Aug 25 2012, 09:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most spectators lack any insight how the game progresses and put very little value to gradual little things that add up and evolve into a key moments.
So pretty much everything is up to caster hype and when the caster is clueless the spectators are...
Powernodes add very little to the game and most of it is garbage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. Most of these casters have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and some of the things they say make you wanna facepalm. On top of that add in the missing of important moments due to random chatter and you get an already boring game even worse.
<!--quoteo(post=1966744:date=Aug 26 2012, 12:45 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 26 2012, 12:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was definitely our own fault for allowing it to happen. I just think that the consequences are too harsh and too easy to bring about -- you make a few small errors and suddenly that's it, GG, almost no chance of recovery. It's not a new observation, since the powernodes have been like this for a while now, but it always leaves a sour taste in my mouth when it happens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the whole pnode issue bears a lot of similarity to why a lot of BW and WC3 veterans find SC2 a rather dull experience.
In SC2 Blizzard wanted everyone to be able to deal 'terrible, terrible damage'. Creating and moving around huge armies is extremely easy, so huge maxed out armies clash at each other and massive damage is dealt. However, it means that getting caught at a wrong angle in one 2 second moment of a 25 minute round can absolutely make or break the game. It's totally out of proportions how single engagement angle or small unit count committed elsewhere can decide the whole game.
Two things that happen are:
1.) Passive play. In case of doubt, just defend. Everything else is too risky. In NS2 way this probably means that you can very rarely have all your marines being active on the map, someone has to secure the pnode. No matter if you're in the lead, someone needs to sit back and shut down the enemy instawin button.
2.) Time wasted on unsatisfying gameplay. In SC2 you're going through way too many 'Huh, that's it?' moments. Losing because of one bad angle in a 20 minute game is frustrating. Winning because your enemy got the bad angle feels indifferent and doesn't give much thrill of winning.
Obviously SC2 is still a decent game with ridiculous amount of depth, but it also has a huge issue with wins and losses being feeling just indifferent. Winning or losing because a small mistake snowballs out of control makes the game far less satisfying to play.
If the amount of health that it has was higher so that a powernode that was powering a command centre made it so that it would take the same amount of time to chew through a observatory + CC, would powernodes still be a good thing in NS2 and be balanced?
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
The only viable gameplay mechanic currently housed by the power nodes is its function as a light switch. It is a purely "hey that's cool" function for new players, but at least it has some value. The rest are pure contrivances and trying to balance them by tweaking health values and what not is a waste of time. This should be pretty obvious once you look back at all the different iterations and tweaks the power nodes have gone through without it really making things any better, just less apparent.
i like the power mechanics. it's just that very few people actually use power packs as backup e.g. for the obs. 15 res is not that cheap, but if you compare it to your entire base going down... and even with the current mechanics, aliens can have a hard time finishing off the marines as it is.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1966848:date=Aug 26 2012, 01:13 PM:name=Laosh'Ra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laosh'Ra @ Aug 26 2012, 01:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966848"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->aliens can have a hard time finishing off the marines as it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is mostly caused by (1) fast marine spawn times, (2) ip pushback, and (3) armories restoring health/armor, though.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited August 2012
Everyone always forgets (4) GL player damage [from spamming the entrances] and (5) recycling weapons
and i know with #5 most ns1 vets will defend, but from an objective standpoint you cant tell me that while simply observing a marine turtle you wont see 70% of the weapons recycled in base, constantly negating any loss in tech despite their failure. Just compare it to rushing an alien base - do skulks get to keep picking up that fade again and again to defend base? A simple "can only recycle once" mechanic would go a long way..
As for power nodes, they need a lot of work, but a quick and easy method could simply be to just not have them be in techpoint rooms, and have the Command chairs that are <i>self sustaining</i> power the nearby structures.
<!--quoteo(post=1966932:date=Aug 26 2012, 05:36 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Aug 26 2012, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for power nodes, they need a lot of work, but a quick and easy method could simply be to just not have them be in techpoint rooms, and have the Command chairs that are <i>self sustaining</i> power the nearby structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> IRONGORGE
If removing power to anywhere but the techpoints, then what's the point of attacking the power anyway if everyone should be focusing on the tech-point bases on turtle-scenarios?
Turtling from previous builds is what kept me playing the game. I don't find this idea attractive at all babby.
<!--quoteo(post=1966801:date=Aug 26 2012, 07:13 AM:name=Zomb3h)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zomb3h @ Aug 26 2012, 07:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966801"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 without power nodes = more turtling waiting to be invited.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Only because average human is stupid enough not to block powernode if they wanted to turtle, then again intellengent people do not turtle thus the dilemma.
Most of you would agree that people are not stupid enough to let this go on for extended period no?
Pardon me if I sound ignorant, but I haven't been following the entire discussion. I notice, however, that people seem to be complaining about the perceived vulnerability of power nodes. I thought this was quite comprehensively dealt with by power packs to be honest. Its a mechanic that scales indefinitely with res. If you want something to maintain power badly enough, you can connect as many power packs as you like to it. Every 15 res you make can go directly towards building more power packs.
If you don't want to spend that 15 res, well then, that's your choice, and you need to accept the consequence.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1966796:date=Aug 25 2012, 09:12 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Aug 25 2012, 09:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Powernodes add very little to the game and most of it is garbage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My understanding of the powernodes is that the intent was to create very defined marine/alien/neither territories in conjunction with infestation. Unfortunately, it's turned out to be an alien win button. That's really not a bad thing except that marine have no equivalent (i.e. something like a core cyst that if killed, causes all the infestation in a room to die).
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing command stations having an emergency power function, in which it can supply power to structures within the IP radius for a certain period of time (say 60s), if the room's powernode is killed.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=NS2 twitter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2 twitter)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@festafiesta365 Yes, <b>in the not too distant future</b> NS2 will be available for pre-order on the Steam store.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm with Imbalanxd on this one. You can't complain that a game mechanic is the cause of your loss, when you clearly forgot to use one of the counters to that. Since JPs need a second CC there is also the possibility of a backup base in late game if that 15 res power pack does not please you.
So you need to wait 10 additional minutes just to drop extra powerpacks on everything, before you can safely push into the completely locked down hive to meet the victory condition on a game that ended long time ago.
Its just ridiculous how big of an impact such a weak and statically placed building has on the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1966990:date=Aug 27 2012, 11:46 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Aug 27 2012, 11:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966990"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you need to wait 10 additional minutes just to drop extra powerpacks on everything, before you can safely push into the completely locked down hive to meet the victory condition on a game that ended long time ago.
Its just ridiculous how big of an impact such a weak and statically placed building has on the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like whip placement 10 minutes before you've even heard a grenade launcher go off because you are going to wait 10 minute before they mature.
On that note, was the mature requirement for hitting grenades away removed? Or maybe some servers removed it? I swear some of my immature whips have been doing it.
<!--quoteo(post=1966999:date=Aug 27 2012, 01:53 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Aug 27 2012, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966999"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sounds like whip placement 10 minutes before you've even heard a grenade launcher go off because you are going to wait 10 minute before they mature.
On that note, was the mature requirement for hitting grenades away removed? Or maybe some servers removed it? I swear some of my immature whips have been doing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No idea how that relates to powernodes being a bad mechanic, but i do agree that whips are quite silly.
<!--quoteo(post=1966943:date=Aug 27 2012, 12:12 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 27 2012, 12:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966943"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My understanding of the powernodes is that the intent was to create very defined marine/alien/neither territories in conjunction with infestation. Unfortunately, it's turned out to be an alien win button. That's really not a bad thing except that marine have no equivalent (i.e. something like a core cyst that if killed, causes all the infestation in a room to die).
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing command stations having an emergency power function, in which it can supply power to structures within the IP radius for a certain period of time (say 60s), if the room's powernode is killed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Infestation is enough to distinguish between alien territory and marine territory. There was never any need to demarcate marine areas, especially when maps are so overwhelmingly marine-ish anyway but even if they weren't, one visual indicator is enough. Yuuki illustrated this very well with a picture that showed how much distinction you can have with only two colours (in this case, default vs infestation).
Also, It just *is* a bad thing and giving aliens there own equivalent win button would only make matters worse. The rejection of this mechanic has got nothing to do with balance but, rather, how silly and frustrating it is to have to look after a super-fragile win-button throughout a game. I don't really want to go into detail about why exactly power is bad as I've done that a thousand times but I just wanted to rebuke the notion that power is bad only because of its effects on overall balance.
I don't see why this win button has to be symmetric for both teams? Turtling aliens was never a problem. Turtling marines were. Having one fragile building that you need to defend isn't that unbalanced. If it would be like that, you would see literally every comp match ending in an alien rush to the node. But obviously that isn't the case. It sure is used to end games, but thats a total different thing. Because it is mostly used to end games that are already won by the aliens. The few occasions that the aliens could manage to use the power point mechanic to win a game that they were loosing, was always the fault of the marines, that had enough res, (because they were winning) but didn't spent only 15 res to get another IP or Obs on their second CC, or a power pack on the Obs in base.
Kotaku: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->40,000 was a great start, but once they launch, <u>they'll have to sell at least a few hundred thousand copies of the game to stay alive</u>, Jeremy says. They haven't finalized a price yet, but Jeremy promises that Natural Selection 2 will sell for under $35.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1967631:date=Aug 28 2012, 02:39 PM:name=VoodooHex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VoodooHex @ Aug 28 2012, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The patch is coming out and I'm stuck down here with this damn hurricane?! Noooooooooooooo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
Simple, increase marine spawn time back to normal levels.
It's at 2:43 ish on <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/329919238" target="_blank">this video</a> if anyone wants to rewatch that moment btw.
If anything I think one thing that would be worth trying for marines is to be able to buy an upgrade for a power node to make it either more damage resistant or something similar to the NS1 Electrify RT (electrify p-node?). But I would say that a CC has to be present in a room to be able to upgrade a p-node... that would make marine main base more resistant to surprise rushes like this, especially when alien khams start getting better at using Enzyme with these 3-4 skulk rushes marines will have possibly too little time to react.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd have to disagree. Realistically if you count communication and response time, even with nano shield the beacon wouldn't have finished in time.
<!--quoteo(post=1966779:date=Aug 25 2012, 07:04 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Aug 25 2012, 07:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, when I say 'exciting', I don't mean to imply that any player with an ounce of competitive experience likes defending a win-button made out of glass.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah it's funny. I saw the more knowledgeable people in the twitch chat talking about win buttons, and then all the randoms saying how power node gameplay is great because of things like this.
<!--quoteo(post=1966796:date=Aug 25 2012, 09:12 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Aug 25 2012, 09:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most spectators lack any insight how the game progresses and put very little value to gradual little things that add up and evolve into a key moments.
So pretty much everything is up to caster hype and when the caster is clueless the spectators are...
Powernodes add very little to the game and most of it is garbage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. Most of these casters have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and some of the things they say make you wanna facepalm. On top of that add in the missing of important moments due to random chatter and you get an already boring game even worse.
I think the whole pnode issue bears a lot of similarity to why a lot of BW and WC3 veterans find SC2 a rather dull experience.
In SC2 Blizzard wanted everyone to be able to deal 'terrible, terrible damage'. Creating and moving around huge armies is extremely easy, so huge maxed out armies clash at each other and massive damage is dealt. However, it means that getting caught at a wrong angle in one 2 second moment of a 25 minute round can absolutely make or break the game. It's totally out of proportions how single engagement angle or small unit count committed elsewhere can decide the whole game.
Two things that happen are:
1.) Passive play. In case of doubt, just defend. Everything else is too risky. In NS2 way this probably means that you can very rarely have all your marines being active on the map, someone has to secure the pnode. No matter if you're in the lead, someone needs to sit back and shut down the enemy instawin button.
2.) Time wasted on unsatisfying gameplay. In SC2 you're going through way too many 'Huh, that's it?' moments. Losing because of one bad angle in a 20 minute game is frustrating. Winning because your enemy got the bad angle feels indifferent and doesn't give much thrill of winning.
Obviously SC2 is still a decent game with ridiculous amount of depth, but it also has a huge issue with wins and losses being feeling just indifferent. Winning or losing because a small mistake snowballs out of control makes the game far less satisfying to play.
Powernodes could have a bit more hp though.
Interesting comparison, Bacillus.
This is mostly caused by (1) fast marine spawn times, (2) ip pushback, and (3) armories restoring health/armor, though.
and i know with #5 most ns1 vets will defend, but from an objective standpoint you cant tell me that while simply observing a marine turtle you wont see 70% of the weapons recycled in base, constantly negating any loss in tech despite their failure. Just compare it to rushing an alien base - do skulks get to keep picking up that fade again and again to defend base? A simple "can only recycle once" mechanic would go a long way..
As for power nodes, they need a lot of work, but a quick and easy method could simply be to just not have them be in techpoint rooms, and have the Command chairs that are <i>self sustaining</i> power the nearby structures.
IRONGORGE
If removing power to anywhere but the techpoints, then what's the point of attacking the power anyway if everyone should be focusing on the tech-point bases on turtle-scenarios?
Turtling from previous builds is what kept me playing the game. I don't find this idea attractive at all babby.
Only because average human is stupid enough not to block powernode if they wanted to turtle, then again intellengent people do not turtle thus the dilemma.
Most of you would agree that people are not stupid enough to let this go on for extended period no?
If you don't want to spend that 15 res, well then, that's your choice, and you need to accept the consequence.
My understanding of the powernodes is that the intent was to create very defined marine/alien/neither territories in conjunction with infestation. Unfortunately, it's turned out to be an alien win button. That's really not a bad thing except that marine have no equivalent (i.e. something like a core cyst that if killed, causes all the infestation in a room to die).
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing command stations having an emergency power function, in which it can supply power to structures within the IP radius for a certain period of time (say 60s), if the room's powernode is killed.
Next Sunday?
Its just ridiculous how big of an impact such a weak and statically placed building has on the game.
Its just ridiculous how big of an impact such a weak and statically placed building has on the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like whip placement 10 minutes before you've even heard a grenade launcher go off because you are going to wait 10 minute before they mature.
On that note, was the mature requirement for hitting grenades away removed? Or maybe some servers removed it? I swear some of my immature whips have been doing it.
On that note, was the mature requirement for hitting grenades away removed? Or maybe some servers removed it? I swear some of my immature whips have been doing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No idea how that relates to powernodes being a bad mechanic, but i do agree that whips are quite silly.
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing command stations having an emergency power function, in which it can supply power to structures within the IP radius for a certain period of time (say 60s), if the room's powernode is killed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Infestation is enough to distinguish between alien territory and marine territory. There was never any need to demarcate marine areas, especially when maps are so overwhelmingly marine-ish anyway but even if they weren't, one visual indicator is enough. Yuuki illustrated this very well with a picture that showed how much distinction you can have with only two colours (in this case, default vs infestation).
Also, It just *is* a bad thing and giving aliens there own equivalent win button would only make matters worse. The rejection of this mechanic has got nothing to do with balance but, rather, how silly and frustrating it is to have to look after a super-fragile win-button throughout a game. I don't really want to go into detail about why exactly power is bad as I've done that a thousand times but I just wanted to rebuke the notion that power is bad only because of its effects on overall balance.
Turtling aliens was never a problem. Turtling marines were. Having one fragile building that you need to defend isn't that unbalanced. If it would be like that, you would see literally every comp match ending in an alien rush to the node. But obviously that isn't the case. It sure is used to end games, but thats a total different thing. Because it is mostly used to end games that are already won by the aliens. The few occasions that the aliens could manage to use the power point mechanic to win a game that they were loosing, was always the fault of the marines, that had enough res, (because they were winning) but didn't spent only 15 res to get another IP or Obs on their second CC, or a power pack on the Obs in base.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->40,000 was a great start, but once they launch, <u>they'll have to sell at least a few hundred thousand copies of the game to stay alive</u>, Jeremy says. They haven't finalized a price yet, but Jeremy promises that Natural Selection 2 will sell for under $35.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No pressure...
Prepare to be blown away!
;)
BTW has UWE though of doing a kickstarter? is it too late? :s