Fade Land
Sherwood
Join Date: 2012-09-04 Member: 157696Members
Join Date: 2012-09-04 Member: 157696Members
<div class="IPBDescription">A Disccussion about the enevitabilty Fades ruining the game</div>I have been playing NS1 since it was released so long ago, I always had fun playing the game even if it was a bit buggy and would often crash/cause my whole gamma scale on my pc to turn extremely white.
Moral of the story is Fades are just as Overpowered a Class as they were in NS1, They have too much health, and too many ways to evade attacks. Combine that with a very powerful swipe attack and the built in feature to auto turn to the marine you blink next to, it makes for a very game imbalancing class.
All it takes is one person who's either really skilled or cheating to play fade in a server and the entire game is messed up.
This game relies on unit movement much the same way a RTS relies on it, except in an RTS when 5 units attack 5 units 3-4 of either side will die, and one side will lose everything. However in NS2 if one person like explained in the above exists on the opposing team the entire troop movement of 5 can be killed by 1 over and over and over. preventing the placing of Extractors, powernodes, command chairs, ect ,ect
I have played on many different servers and already I have encountered exactly the same thing that made me stop playing ns1, Unkillable, Unstoppable, Marauding fades. Within a 30 min game the fade will have a 70-4 kill death ratio, the 4 deaths he has are from when he was a skulk. I watch as the fade waltz's into a collum of 8 marines and he kills all of them.
The balance of this game is too easily swayed by fades, and i am not talking about all fades. Because I watch fades die all the time, its the ones who script and cheat that ruin every game.
I am sure I will get the standard troll replies but in the end even the trolls see the effects when one of these people joins a server.
The games start out fun competitive and mostly even. As soon as one of these people joins the server it turns into boredom on the team with the cheating fade, and frustration on the side against. I understand this is just beta but I watch those same cheaters play skulks, lurks, and onos's and they do eventually die, but the powers of a fade give these people essential invulnerability.
I really don't want this game to just become another Fade Land like NS1
I really hope the developers see that and take appropriate counter measures.
I am far from an expert on these things but just some possible counter measures that popped into my head while writing this are.
#1 Make Fades Larger, I.E. increase the size of there model and as a result the size of there hitbox's.
As it is right now the fades blink ability allows them to essentially never die and always get away if they are smart. Before I get the standard replies of I kill fades in 1v1's all the timezorz!111! Let it be said that a fade who uses blink properly will never die, A fade who does not use it properly will die all the time. It is honestly not all that hard to use blink to never die, using crags/hive/gorges for regen.
#2 I offer as another counter that when a fade is hit while blinking that it should temporarily cancel his blink and force him to recast it. No delay on the recast but simply a break in the fades concentration to maintain it through multiple bullets piercing his armor.
#3 Slow down the fades blink speed, not even a jet-packer at current can maintain the speed needed to hunt down a fade who is fleeing using blink. Certainly not an exo-suit which people say is supposed to be comparable to fades. In my opinion a Jetpacker with a shotgun + at least w2 armor 2 is the closest comparable unit to a fade in terms of an answer to the problem. But a shotgun Jper will never be able to "catch" and kill a fade Because the endurance and speed of blink is just far past anything else in the game.
#4 Remove the auto-turn to marine function of blink. Blink is incredibly overpowered as it is, it doesn't need an auto aim feature built in as well.
#5 Blink needs to be less fluid, as it is now the blink feature pretty much bounces your character around/over anything in your way. The marines only option to killing a fade sometimes is to use there own bodies to block the path of the escaping fade to try to get a few more hits in. Yet I watch time and time again as the fade literally Does a upside down U right over the head of a marine. The fade needs to get stuck as a natural result of his foolish blinking habits, Not encouraged to blink into every wall corner and building and get away with it.
#6 You finally kill a fade yay, oh wait he's just feigning death, when any of the other class's feign you have a chance to kill them if your careful, yet fades for some reason can use the shift speed boost while feigned to get away. They are already hard enough to kill without this advantage they shouldn't be allowed the shift speed boost while feigned.
I like this game, I preordered got my black armor and i am hoping for a great polished game outcome. But as of right now The fade class is making it look like call of duty style play.
Moral of the story is Fades are just as Overpowered a Class as they were in NS1, They have too much health, and too many ways to evade attacks. Combine that with a very powerful swipe attack and the built in feature to auto turn to the marine you blink next to, it makes for a very game imbalancing class.
All it takes is one person who's either really skilled or cheating to play fade in a server and the entire game is messed up.
This game relies on unit movement much the same way a RTS relies on it, except in an RTS when 5 units attack 5 units 3-4 of either side will die, and one side will lose everything. However in NS2 if one person like explained in the above exists on the opposing team the entire troop movement of 5 can be killed by 1 over and over and over. preventing the placing of Extractors, powernodes, command chairs, ect ,ect
I have played on many different servers and already I have encountered exactly the same thing that made me stop playing ns1, Unkillable, Unstoppable, Marauding fades. Within a 30 min game the fade will have a 70-4 kill death ratio, the 4 deaths he has are from when he was a skulk. I watch as the fade waltz's into a collum of 8 marines and he kills all of them.
The balance of this game is too easily swayed by fades, and i am not talking about all fades. Because I watch fades die all the time, its the ones who script and cheat that ruin every game.
I am sure I will get the standard troll replies but in the end even the trolls see the effects when one of these people joins a server.
The games start out fun competitive and mostly even. As soon as one of these people joins the server it turns into boredom on the team with the cheating fade, and frustration on the side against. I understand this is just beta but I watch those same cheaters play skulks, lurks, and onos's and they do eventually die, but the powers of a fade give these people essential invulnerability.
I really don't want this game to just become another Fade Land like NS1
I really hope the developers see that and take appropriate counter measures.
I am far from an expert on these things but just some possible counter measures that popped into my head while writing this are.
#1 Make Fades Larger, I.E. increase the size of there model and as a result the size of there hitbox's.
As it is right now the fades blink ability allows them to essentially never die and always get away if they are smart. Before I get the standard replies of I kill fades in 1v1's all the timezorz!111! Let it be said that a fade who uses blink properly will never die, A fade who does not use it properly will die all the time. It is honestly not all that hard to use blink to never die, using crags/hive/gorges for regen.
#2 I offer as another counter that when a fade is hit while blinking that it should temporarily cancel his blink and force him to recast it. No delay on the recast but simply a break in the fades concentration to maintain it through multiple bullets piercing his armor.
#3 Slow down the fades blink speed, not even a jet-packer at current can maintain the speed needed to hunt down a fade who is fleeing using blink. Certainly not an exo-suit which people say is supposed to be comparable to fades. In my opinion a Jetpacker with a shotgun + at least w2 armor 2 is the closest comparable unit to a fade in terms of an answer to the problem. But a shotgun Jper will never be able to "catch" and kill a fade Because the endurance and speed of blink is just far past anything else in the game.
#4 Remove the auto-turn to marine function of blink. Blink is incredibly overpowered as it is, it doesn't need an auto aim feature built in as well.
#5 Blink needs to be less fluid, as it is now the blink feature pretty much bounces your character around/over anything in your way. The marines only option to killing a fade sometimes is to use there own bodies to block the path of the escaping fade to try to get a few more hits in. Yet I watch time and time again as the fade literally Does a upside down U right over the head of a marine. The fade needs to get stuck as a natural result of his foolish blinking habits, Not encouraged to blink into every wall corner and building and get away with it.
#6 You finally kill a fade yay, oh wait he's just feigning death, when any of the other class's feign you have a chance to kill them if your careful, yet fades for some reason can use the shift speed boost while feigned to get away. They are already hard enough to kill without this advantage they shouldn't be allowed the shift speed boost while feigned.
I like this game, I preordered got my black armor and i am hoping for a great polished game outcome. But as of right now The fade class is making it look like call of duty style play.
Comments
whoa, theres an auto-aim?
The new blink is much more predictable and the fact that they're no longer invincible while blinking helps a lot.
I don't see a big issue with them currently.
The new blink is much more predictable and the fact that they're no longer invincible while blinking helps a lot.
I don't see a big issue with them currently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only issue is that a khaamander can give out fade eggs like candy.
The new blink is much more predictable and the fact that they're no longer invincible while blinking helps a lot.
I don't see a big issue with them currently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Under current build I still watch the fades destroy every player on the server, on multiple servers. Just today I have already seen 7 different named fades with scores around 70-4 on multiple servers.
Lol I thought that too. So I just have to blink near a marine and swipe and the game aims for me? That doesn't sound right, I'll have to test it.
Also to the OP, I agree that it can be frustrating to play against the really good competitive players, but the solution is NOT to dumb down or smack the fade with the nerfbat, cause as it is now it is quite fun to play. If you are on a server with one of these guys then just switch server or take a break. And I think you're exaggerating quite a bit as well. I very rarely see fades with e.g. 70-4 and I play almost every day. Sure a good fade will most likely get 30-40 kills, but I just think that's part of the game. If they get a higher KD than that it's usually because the marine team don't know what they are doing and can't aim, especially if you have a scenario where 8 freaking marines die to one fade.
<!--quoteo(post=1971012:date=Sep 4 2012, 09:12 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 09:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971012"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Under current build I still watch the fades destroy every player on the server, on multiple servers. Just today I have already seen 7 different named fades with scores around 70-4 on multiple servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you recall their names and what servers do you play in? I am seriously doubting this is true.
EDIT: Btw I believe I have heard that UWE plans to take out feign death. Can someone confirm this? Cause I agree it is annoying especially on fades.
The only times that fades completely dominate is when the game is already lost, resource wise and upgrade wise.
That's because the people they are fighting suck.
It's Exo madness right now, all the newbies want to rush onto Marines to play with the new toys. Against a decently equipped T2 team who actually knows how to aim, fades have a real struggle on their hands. Shotguns do enormous burst damage the second a Fade blinks into combat, well-armored marines make even a single kill take a salvo of successful swipes as his health is blown away chuck by chunk, and even if he manages to run away, the Marines are more than capable of just chasing him down and finishing him off (unless he blinks all the way back to the hive, and in that case, he's taking so long to attack he'd probably be better off as a skulk).
Fades, like all Kharaa, are powerful when supported and used in strategically appropriate situations. That doesn't make them broken. If you want to see fades getting less kills, then learn to fight them. This thread is like hearing Skulks complain about how hard to kill Exosuits are.
This doesn't even exist. It's hard to take a complaint thread seriously when it's built on a completely wrong premise.
Good fades dominate midgame much like good marines dominate early game. What you're seeing on pubs is a good fade dominating bad a lot of bad marines. Now this isn't to say fades are fine. I think they're either slightly too powerful or far too plentiful this build. With 30 tres fade eggs, losing a fade is rather meaningless. If you lost your fade in previous builds then you were stuck skulk for the next 5 or 10 minutes. Now your comm just drops a fade egg and you instantly evolve.
As to your numbered suggestions, I think #5 and #6 have merit. The rest are bad.
#5 - I think fades should be easier to block for marines. This would give a greater chance to interrupt their escapes by body blocking.
#6 - I think feign death should spit you out starting at 0 energy. This would mean it would take fades a half second or so to get enough energy for a short blink.
This is only issue with fades. All other issues relate to people being terrible.
Good fades dominate midgame much like good marines dominate early game. What you're seeing on pubs is a good fade dominating bad a lot of bad marines. Now this isn't to say fades are fine. I think they're either slightly too powerful or far too plentiful this build. With 30 tres fade eggs, losing a fade is rather meaningless. If you lost your fade in previous builds then you were stuck skulk for the next 5 or 10 minutes. Now your comm just drops a fade egg and you instantly evolve.
As to your numbered suggestions, I think #5 and #6 have merit. The rest are bad.
#5 - I think fades should be easier to block for marines. This would give a greater chance to interrupt their escapes by body blocking.
#6 - I think feign death should spit you out starting at 0 energy. This would mean it would take fades a half second or so to get enough energy for a short blink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am referring to the ability of fades to shift speed while in the dead/feign mode
<!--quoteo(post=1971022:date=Sep 4 2012, 02:24 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Sep 4 2012, 02:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971022"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Issue is less that fades are op, but that we don't do any type of skill-based matchmaking. In effect, (to use SC2 terms) we regularly have platinum and master level NS2 players playing against bronze and silver level NS2 players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I Really don't belive that there is that much of a skill gap that causes fades to be unkillable. I watch marines that go 40-10 get murdered by these fades over and over.
I'm guessing all the fades you've encountered with very high KD ratios are competitive players. Just switch to a different server if you find them obnoxious.
<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->
Did you pull that from an old wiki..? They haven't done that since blink was actually a teleport in early alpha. And it was actually terrible and made the whole teleportation process disorienting to an even further degree than it already was.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
half the map? lol I can do laps on the map with adrenaline loaded
<!--quoteo(post=1971026:date=Sep 4 2012, 02:32 PM:name=KaptajnKLO)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KaptajnKLO @ Sep 4 2012, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971026"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm guessing all the fades you've encountered with very high KD ratios are competitive players. Just switch to a different server if you find them obnoxious.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's funny how when these same "competitve" players are using a different class they suck. I don't think it is just coincidence that all the competitive players choose to play fades. They know fades are overpowered and choose them accordingly, it's not different then the flavor of the month in mmo's where everyone plays a particular class because there powerful then switch just because they are nerfed to normal.
Lerks can fly through all of the map, and Marines can freaking teleport.
It's not just about how you get there, it's what you do when you arrive. And against a prepared Marine team, the answer for fades is often "lose 50 res".
I encourage you to play a <a href="http://www.ensl.org/gathers/5268" target="_blank">gather</a> to change your mind.
...me?
edited ;)
Sounds like you're making ###### up.
<!--quoteo(post=1971037:date=Sep 4 2012, 09:43 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 09:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971037"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They know fades are overpowered and choose them accordingly, it's not different then the flavor of the month in mmo's where everyone plays a particular class because there powerful then switch just because they are nerfed to normal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades are easier to kill than ever before. They are not overpowered if the marines work together and can aim.
Wunderbar =P
Saying Fades are imbalanced because they kill marines is like saying Exos are imbalanced because they have so much health. When you are fighting them, that's all you see. You don't see the negative side.
if by "suck" you mean go 25-4 instead of 40-0
His actual melee attacking speed is faster than any other life form.. Which is odd imo for a class whose role is "the surgical striker". He even attacks faster than the skulk - no matter the armor level a fade can kill a marine before he finishes reloading most weapons. (hes godly with enzymes)
I know this was done to create the scenario of keeping the fade out of blink and vulnerable for x duration.. But I have simply found it to be unlike his role and allowing for that op fade.
You see, the fade will use the same amount of energy getting into and out of rooms regardless if you change attack speed, however, if it is lowered he will either remain in the room longer (more likely to die) or the more likely scenario, (and fitting his role) have to exit the room and re enter repeatedly , making him less effective as hes not so much of a killer with med packs and the added time.
I'm not suggesting increasing his damage from swipe, either, that creates binary, frustrating play similar to whats occurring now.
The hardest strategy game balancing act ever is to have a 'balanced' game where one side which is composed of all one unit type can defeat a powerful mix of unit types.
That may read odd, but remember the game is 'balanced' ... so the other side should be able to de-versify it's unit structure and be able to effectively return to combat.
This of course usually leads to one type of super unit ... thats the hard part, no super unit, but no all powerful cookie cutter mix of units either.
Personally, I think the Fade is in a great spot, I'm happy when I have the chance to go Fade as aliens, yet I'm scared of 2 shotgun wielding marines whilst doing so. And a team of Fades has the chance to turn any game. Which for a 12 person team is 600 res yeah? 600 resouces reserved for a final last ditch attempt to turn a game had better damn well have a chance of working.
And in all honesty, it's a slim chance at that. If you're loosing, you're probably not winning in res. If you're not winning in res, Marines have upgrades. If marines have upgrades, they can just about 1v1 you with a shotgun. If they can just about 1v1 you with a shotgun, your fades are gonna have a bad time.
Fades are easier to kill than ever before. They are not overpowered if the marines work together and can aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it really is; I'm going to throw a name under the bus but [Inv]Joe managed to get 138-8 as a Fade simply by spamming Blink and swipe (though his aim is 'great.') As a Skulk he isn't nearly as good and you notice he'll go Fade as soon as he can. Obviously the worst part of that game was the 3-4 Fades that swarmed with him.
Fades are very spongy as of late but seem to take a noticeable amount of damage compared to the days when I could solo an average Fade player with a shotgun in the Builds of delayed swipes and invulnerable blinks. Don't get me wrong; I don't think it should be 1vs1 Marine win situations unless the Fade is really bad but having 4-6 Fades on a team really destroys the game.