<!--quoteo(post=1976143:date=Sep 12 2012, 08:28 AM:name={GGs} Chicken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ({GGs} Chicken @ Sep 12 2012, 08:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Welp, there goes any credit your argument had.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why? Because you're whining before even trying out the new patch changes? For the record, I think adrenaline affects fades too much and it would be a good thing to remove shadow step somehow, but before coming to that I'd like to see how the gameplay currently is.
The problem I see is that fades still cost 50 res, thats the same as an exo. I don't want it to be downgraded to be an upgraded skulk. There might be ways to balance the fade by buffing other things or providing more hard counters. We'll see how the new patch plays. If UWE deem the fade to be too powerful for its cost, it will get nerfed in one of the next patches.
<!--quoteo(post=1976155:date=Sep 11 2012, 11:50 PM:name=Keldorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keldorn @ Sep 11 2012, 11:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976155"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem I see is that fades still cost 50 res, thats the same as an exo. I don't want it to be downgraded to be an upgraded skulk. There might be ways to balance the fade by buffing other things or providing more hard counters. We'll see how the new patch plays. If UWE deem the fade to be too powerful for its cost, it will get nerfed in one of the next patches.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Technically Exos cost more, if you factor in the tres costs of development.
<!--quoteo(post=1976162:date=Sep 12 2012, 10:37 AM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Sep 12 2012, 10:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976162"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Technically Exos cost more, if you factor in the tres costs of development.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then again, with evenly matched teams, marines will often have double the harvesters the aliens have, so even though both sides use the same measurement unit, actually an alien resource point is rarer than a marine resource point.
(Direct) team res upgrade costs:
Marine: 15 CC + 20 advanced armory + 40 proto lab + 30 exo with fist = 105 Alien: 40 hive + 30 blink = 70
With higher energy costs for blink (especially initial costs) and swipe. The fade could be balanced without making him weaker. Right now the fade is powerful AND has no need to watch its energy. Restricting its killing effectiveness with his energy would not make him less dangerous, but he couldn't last as long in battles as now and failures by the player would be punished harder. (No energy to blink out = death)
<!--quoteo(post=1976170:date=Sep 12 2012, 01:07 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Sep 12 2012, 01:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976170"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then again, with evenly matched teams, marines will often have double the harvesters the aliens have, so even though both sides use the same measurement unit, actually an alien resource point is rarer than a marine resource point.
(Direct) team res upgrade costs:
Marine: 15 CC + 20 advanced armory + 40 proto lab + 30 exo with fist = 105 Alien: 40 hive + 30 blink = 70<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exos cost 40 tres to research now, and you can't count Blink. If you count Blink, then you have to count at minimum the armor upgrades for Exos. The difference between a a0 Exo and a3 Exo is humungous. a3 has almost twice the 'health'.
Hi guys =) i am still watching my thread, fun reading everyones differing viewpoints I only wanted to step in for a second to point out some minor details. I do like reading all the many varied statements, special thanks to people who actually posted supporting comments about things I posted.
Oh yea I stopped posting because well... there always comes a time when one persons viewpoint isn't enough and you have to step back and let other people express there viewpoints. I was kinda surprised at how many people chose to do just that.
<!--quoteo(post=1974979:date=Sep 10 2012, 08:31 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Sep 10 2012, 08:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974979"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remove shadowstep and then the fade will be fixed... Either the fade needs some changes to prevent spam of its abilities, adrenaline needs changes to prevent spam, or shadowstep should probably just be axed in favor of 1 hive blink.
Mass lifeforms is inherent to the resource system, and i do not think at this stage that anything would be changed there.
There doesnt need to be a direct downside to going fade, you are spending 50 resources to do that... Diversity should be (and is) ecouraged via roles that each lifeform fit<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As most of you have pointed out fades are a 50 res life form, but what you are not taking into account is how marines spend pres to upgrade themselves, and how marines also obtain upgrades through the com.
A base marine with Armor 0 and weapon 0 is a lifeform worth 0 res same as a skulk, But when he obtains weapon 3 and armor 3 what res lifeform is he then? The dmg and survivability of the marine goes up just like when a alien transforms into a onos or fade.
Point number two, 10 res jetpacks are always lost on death, and weapons are almost always lost on death. Sure some weapons do get picked up again but a lot of them are lost in areas too far away for retrieval I know because I have often tried to retrieve weapons I have died holding only to watch them disappear as i get there.
So you have a marine with armor 3 weapons 3 a jet pack, and a flamethrower what res life form is he supposed to be? In pres it cost him 40 to become a jet packer with a flamethrower.
I am not insinuating anything nor do I really have a point to prove in this specific post. Just merely that I don't think that assertions of fade being a 50 res lifeform is enough to justify anything by itself, when there are so many forms a marine can take which are very close to a 50 res lifeform.
Maybe if they actually made gorges, lerks and onos viable lifeforms we wouldn't see such a huge reliance on fade in any serious game.
Gorges are a joke, they're supposed to be combat engineers but can't even stand up to a single marine. Their hydras aren't that great for costing 3 p.res and since the alien commander took pretty much all the other things gorges used to be in charge of, the class is simply dull to play overall.
Lerks are laughable, as performance increases it becomes easier to track them down. Once shotguns are out you generally don't stand a chance versus a handful of marines. Lerk gas needs researching, which given it's low effectiveness is usually only done later on in the game. And the lerk with just bite and spike isn't really all that great for 30 p.res. They should be dropped to 25 p.res maybe, or bump up the effectiveness of gas and spikes at least.
Onos are still a joke, they're just big meat shields for the rest of the team really. They're rather easily focussed down, don't stand a chance against jet packers whatsoever (In NS1 you could devour them at least) and can't reliably take on more than a couple of marines at the same time. (Not to mention the movement and general escape mechanic is atrocious)
Lastly, skulks hardly scale into the lategame, meaning being stuck on that lifeform while you wait for enough p.res to go fade is quite the unsatisfying experience. (Also doesn't help that they nerfed it's movement and bite cone so much)
So before you go and nerf fades into the ground, which is undoubtedly something already set in motion, please take a look at the other lifeforms and at least fix their obvious shortcomings. Not only will that make the game A LOT more enjoyable, it'll also make the fade look less like a BEAST by comparison, the fade is simply the only lifeform on the alien side at the moment that isn't in need of some serious tweaking.
<!--quoteo(post=1978750:date=Sep 16 2012, 03:50 PM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Sep 16 2012, 03:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Kopikat, are you forgetting carapace etc? coz that evens things up again a bit...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not counting Alien or Marine upgrades, because then it would go into 'what upgrades are equivalent to w3/a3, relevant research like Welders, etc'. Purely based on tres, it's 40 tres to get a stock Fade on the field (Which isn't exactly stock even then because of Shadowstep) and 115 for Exos. And I would consider a stock Exo to be considerably weaker than a stock Fade, because the Fade still has Shadowstep. The Exo is just really squishy comparatively without armor upgrades.
But even then, it still favors the Alien side of things because you aren't putting up a second Hive just to get Fades. Putting up a second Hive opens up the whole second tier for Aliens, which is a huge deal. Exos have to be researched specifically. So nothing is lost by getting the ability to field Fades, but time and tres is lost that otherwise wouldn't have been by getting Exos out there.
<!--quoteo(post=1978786:date=Sep 16 2012, 09:52 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Sep 16 2012, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978786"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not counting Alien or Marine upgrades, because then it would go into 'what upgrades are equivalent to w3/a3, relevant research like Welders, etc'. Purely based on tres, it's 40 tres to get a stock Fade on the field (Which isn't exactly stock even then because of Shadowstep) and 115 for Exos. And I would consider a stock Exo to be considerably weaker than a stock Fade, because the Fade still has Shadowstep. The Exo is just really squishy comparatively without armor upgrades.
<b>But even then, it still favors the Alien side of things because you aren't putting up a second Hive just to get Fades</b>. Putting up a second Hive opens up the whole second tier for Aliens, which is a huge deal. Exos have to be researched specifically. So nothing is lost by getting the ability to field Fades, but time and tres is lost that otherwise wouldn't have been by getting Exos out there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, you are putting up a second hive mainly for fades. A fade without blink is even less useful than an onos. Fades are what currently end games or can help turn a game back around. The second reason is leap. Other than that, there isn't anything else really.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Yea the matches over the weekend taught me: Get a team of fades with blink and GG.
I think Xarius above nailed it. but if i had to make one tweak now to the fade it'd be "once you get blink, you lose ShadowStep. SS is 'upgraded' to blink." Because lets face it.. they just fly around.. they basically dont have to touch the ground much ever, still enter a room just fine and destroy. idk.. maybe if what Xarius says happens then only dealing with 1 or 2 wont be an issue.. but i still see it as a viable mass lifeform strat until then.
<!--quoteo(post=1976225:date=Sep 12 2012, 04:40 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Sep 12 2012, 04:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976225"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With higher energy costs for blink (especially initial costs) and swipe. The fade could be balanced without making him weaker. Right now the fade is powerful AND has no need to watch its energy. Restricting its killing effectiveness with his energy would not make him less dangerous, but he couldn't last as long in battles as now and failures by the player would be punished harder. (No energy to blink out = death)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See I don't have any qualms with this, If a marine, or an exo overextend past there territory/support of other marines they die. Overextending is a simple and understood risk based on no support. How far you can overextend safely is strictly due to how fast you move. As a fade I can overextend half the map and still be ok lol, as a marine If i over extend half a room too far I am screwed. Even a jet packer has a clear and distinct limit to how far he can overextend, based on fuel limitations.
I also tend to agree with quite a few of the other people in this post as far as the other alien class's getting very little love. My assumption on that is that fade is just too good so no one really wants to be a lerk, skulk, onos, or gorge. I can't really agree to say lerks are weak simply because I have seen too many people play lerk extremely well. Onos's however do tend to be bullet sponges but they can take it, and they have the ability to sprint away and regenerate unlike an exo. Exo's in many ways are dmg sponges that can't escape we are 100% commited when we start to push. Gorges also are pretty fun to bile bomb on =) and function as the welders do to the exo's and onos with a gorge health spraying him is pretty hard to kill.
Look fades OP I literally started playing about 17 min. ago as alien when I some how got to be a fade this is what happened.
1. miraculously took out 3 marines in one swoop (almost died)
2. went back got health from gorge
3. stood at phase gate tearing it down killing anyone who came through
4. when phase gate downed after killing 4 marines to try to get through made push through to main base
5. slaughtered everyone with mostly team doing work taking out base and that was gg.
now I am one of those people who does nothing all day and plays games and watches videos of said games, but when I played as fade it was OP. Just saying my opinion may be different, but after that c'mon.
I think it's too early (ok, it's quite in gold state, but, ok, it can be refined), but I have just a suggestion: give shotties a stopping power. I mean: if you are moving and the shotties hit you, you get a slight movement in direction of the shot. So, if you are blinking towards a marine with a shotgun, you are slowed or stopped. If you are moving trasversial, your direction will be affected (so for example a good hit can bring a fade blinking against a wall instead of towards an opening).
Give that only to shotguns, as could be overpowered, and probably different from aline form to alien form (not so strong against skulks, probably)
<!--quoteo(post=1980130:date=Sep 19 2012, 11:49 AM:name=B1lly)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (B1lly @ Sep 19 2012, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it's too early (ok, it's quite in gold state, but, ok, it can be refined), but I have just a suggestion: give shotties a stopping power. I mean: if you are moving and the shotties hit you, you get a slight movement in direction of the shot. So, if you are blinking towards a marine with a shotgun, you are slowed or stopped. If you are moving trasversial, your direction will be affected (so for example a good hit can bring a fade blinking against a wall instead of towards an opening).
Give that only to shotguns, as could be overpowered, and probably different from aline form to alien form (not so strong against skulks, probably)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think shotguns have too much utility already, honestly. It might not even be required with the adrenaline change since this patch.
Comments
Welp, there goes any credit your argument had.
Why? Because you're whining before even trying out the new patch changes? For the record, I think adrenaline affects fades too much and it would be a good thing to remove shadow step somehow, but before coming to that I'd like to see how the gameplay currently is.
Technically Exos cost more, if you factor in the tres costs of development.
Then again, with evenly matched teams, marines will often have double the harvesters the aliens have, so even though both sides use the same measurement unit, actually an alien resource point is rarer than a marine resource point.
(Direct) team res upgrade costs:
Marine: 15 CC + 20 advanced armory + 40 proto lab + 30 exo with fist = 105
Alien: 40 hive + 30 blink = 70
(Direct) team res upgrade costs:
Marine: 15 CC + 20 advanced armory + 40 proto lab + 30 exo with fist = 105
Alien: 40 hive + 30 blink = 70<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exos cost 40 tres to research now, and you can't count Blink. If you count Blink, then you have to count at minimum the armor upgrades for Exos. The difference between a a0 Exo and a3 Exo is humungous. a3 has almost twice the 'health'.
Oh yea I stopped posting because well... there always comes a time when one persons viewpoint isn't enough and you have to step back and let other people express there viewpoints. I was kinda surprised at how many people chose to do just that.
<!--quoteo(post=1974979:date=Sep 10 2012, 08:31 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Sep 10 2012, 08:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974979"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remove shadowstep and then the fade will be fixed...
Either the fade needs some changes to prevent spam of its abilities, adrenaline needs changes to prevent spam, or shadowstep should probably just be axed in favor of 1 hive blink.
Mass lifeforms is inherent to the resource system, and i do not think at this stage that anything would be changed there.
There doesnt need to be a direct downside to going fade, you are spending 50 resources to do that... Diversity should be (and is) ecouraged via roles that each lifeform fit<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As most of you have pointed out fades are a 50 res life form, but what you are not taking into account is how marines spend pres to upgrade themselves, and how marines also obtain upgrades through the com.
A base marine with Armor 0 and weapon 0 is a lifeform worth 0 res same as a skulk, But when he obtains weapon 3 and armor 3 what res lifeform is he then? The dmg and survivability of the marine goes up just like when a alien transforms into a onos or fade.
Point number two, 10 res jetpacks are always lost on death, and weapons are almost always lost on death. Sure some weapons do get picked up again but a lot of them are lost in areas too far away for retrieval I know because I have often tried to retrieve weapons I have died holding only to watch them disappear as i get there.
So you have a marine with armor 3 weapons 3 a jet pack, and a flamethrower what res life form is he supposed to be? In pres it cost him 40 to become a jet packer with a flamethrower.
I am not insinuating anything nor do I really have a point to prove in this specific post. Just merely that I don't think that assertions of fade being a 50 res lifeform is enough to justify anything by itself, when there are so many forms a marine can take which are very close to a 50 res lifeform.
Gorges are a joke, they're supposed to be combat engineers but can't even stand up to a single marine. Their hydras aren't that great for costing 3 p.res and since the alien commander took pretty much all the other things gorges used to be in charge of, the class is simply dull to play overall.
Lerks are laughable, as performance increases it becomes easier to track them down. Once shotguns are out you generally don't stand a chance versus a handful of marines. Lerk gas needs researching, which given it's low effectiveness is usually only done later on in the game. And the lerk with just bite and spike isn't really all that great for 30 p.res. They should be dropped to 25 p.res maybe, or bump up the effectiveness of gas and spikes at least.
Onos are still a joke, they're just big meat shields for the rest of the team really. They're rather easily focussed down, don't stand a chance against jet packers whatsoever (In NS1 you could devour them at least) and can't reliably take on more than a couple of marines at the same time. (Not to mention the movement and general escape mechanic is atrocious)
Lastly, skulks hardly scale into the lategame, meaning being stuck on that lifeform while you wait for enough p.res to go fade is quite the unsatisfying experience.
(Also doesn't help that they nerfed it's movement and bite cone so much)
So before you go and nerf fades into the ground, which is undoubtedly something already set in motion, please take a look at the other lifeforms and at least fix their obvious shortcomings. Not only will that make the game A LOT more enjoyable, it'll also make the fade look less like a BEAST by comparison, the fade is simply the only lifeform on the alien side at the moment that isn't in need of some serious tweaking.
Not counting Alien or Marine upgrades, because then it would go into 'what upgrades are equivalent to w3/a3, relevant research like Welders, etc'. Purely based on tres, it's 40 tres to get a stock Fade on the field (Which isn't exactly stock even then because of Shadowstep) and 115 for Exos. And I would consider a stock Exo to be considerably weaker than a stock Fade, because the Fade still has Shadowstep. The Exo is just really squishy comparatively without armor upgrades.
But even then, it still favors the Alien side of things because you aren't putting up a second Hive just to get Fades. Putting up a second Hive opens up the whole second tier for Aliens, which is a huge deal. Exos have to be researched specifically. So nothing is lost by getting the ability to field Fades, but time and tres is lost that otherwise wouldn't have been by getting Exos out there.
<b>But even then, it still favors the Alien side of things because you aren't putting up a second Hive just to get Fades</b>. Putting up a second Hive opens up the whole second tier for Aliens, which is a huge deal. Exos have to be researched specifically. So nothing is lost by getting the ability to field Fades, but time and tres is lost that otherwise wouldn't have been by getting Exos out there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, you are putting up a second hive mainly for fades. A fade without blink is even less useful than an onos. Fades are what currently end games or can help turn a game back around. The second reason is leap. Other than that, there isn't anything else really.
I think Xarius above nailed it. but if i had to make one tweak now to the fade it'd be "once you get blink, you lose ShadowStep. SS is 'upgraded' to blink." Because lets face it.. they just fly around.. they basically dont have to touch the ground much ever, still enter a room just fine and destroy. idk.. maybe if what Xarius says happens then only dealing with 1 or 2 wont be an issue.. but i still see it as a viable mass lifeform strat until then.
See I don't have any qualms with this, If a marine, or an exo overextend past there territory/support of other marines they die. Overextending is a simple and understood risk based on no support. How far you can overextend safely is strictly due to how fast you move. As a fade I can overextend half the map and still be ok lol, as a marine If i over extend half a room too far I am screwed. Even a jet packer has a clear and distinct limit to how far he can overextend, based on fuel limitations.
I also tend to agree with quite a few of the other people in this post as far as the other alien class's getting very little love. My assumption on that is that fade is just too good so no one really wants to be a lerk, skulk, onos, or gorge. I can't really agree to say lerks are weak simply because I have seen too many people play lerk extremely well. Onos's however do tend to be bullet sponges but they can take it, and they have the ability to sprint away and regenerate unlike an exo. Exo's in many ways are dmg sponges that can't escape we are 100% commited when we start to push. Gorges also are pretty fun to bile bomb on =) and function as the welders do to the exo's and onos with a gorge health spraying him is pretty hard to kill.
1. miraculously took out 3 marines in one swoop (almost died)
2. went back got health from gorge
3. stood at phase gate tearing it down killing anyone who came through
4. when phase gate downed after killing 4 marines to try to get through made push through to main base
5. slaughtered everyone with mostly team doing work taking out base and that was gg.
now I am one of those people who does nothing all day and plays games and watches videos of said games, but when I played as fade it was OP. Just saying my opinion may be different, but after that c'mon.
give shotties a stopping power. I mean: if you are moving and the shotties hit you, you get a slight movement in direction of the shot.
So, if you are blinking towards a marine with a shotgun, you are slowed or stopped. If you are moving trasversial, your direction will be affected (so for example a good hit can bring a fade blinking against a wall instead of towards an opening).
Give that only to shotguns, as could be overpowered, and probably different from aline form to alien form (not so strong against skulks, probably)
give shotties a stopping power. I mean: if you are moving and the shotties hit you, you get a slight movement in direction of the shot.
So, if you are blinking towards a marine with a shotgun, you are slowed or stopped. If you are moving trasversial, your direction will be affected (so for example a good hit can bring a fade blinking against a wall instead of towards an opening).
Give that only to shotguns, as could be overpowered, and probably different from aline form to alien form (not so strong against skulks, probably)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think shotguns have too much utility already, honestly. It might not even be required with the adrenaline change since this patch.
Good idea on its own though.