<!--quoteo(post=1971199:date=Sep 4 2012, 06:16 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 4 2012, 06:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971199"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The people whom you complain about in your original post would be completely unaffected by this change. This is why I am sceptical about your opinions, they are not very consistent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea i just realized that too lol the invincble fades would be completely unaffected ;/
they might not be able to "run" as far but the result would be the same.
Fades are fine, <u><b>tres purchasing on eggs is the problem + life form explosion.</b></u>
@op, your obviously new to the game. The fades your encountering have been playing ns1 at high-level comp for 7 years, you have no chance no matter what you do. When the game is 1.0, there will be more players your skill level. Just hold out mate... Current beta players are the die-hard fans
I just want to point out that, since I started playing Natural Selection 10 years ago, I have gone fade, in either NS1 or NS2, less than 10 times. Ever.
<!--quoteo(post=1971201:date=Sep 4 2012, 06:21 PM:name=mf-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mf- @ Sep 4 2012, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971201"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades are fine, <u><b>tres purchasing on eggs is the problem.</b></u>
@op, your obviously new to the game. The fades your encountering have been playing ns1 at high-level comp for 7 years, you have no chance no matter what you do. When the game is 1.0, there will be more players your skill level. Just hold out mate... Current beta players are the die-hard fans<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As i said at the start of the thread I have played ns1 since the beginning. I have also played CS, CS:S, pretty much every fps game made from 1990-2012, even the crap cod series before it turned into modern warfare. I am no newb to fps gameplay nor NS1 or 2, fades were more op in NS1 then they are in NS2. I also was pretty heavy into RTS games like warcraft, civiliation, ect, ect, there is no end to the list of rts's especially command and conquer which has an almost endless number of titles/exp packs.
<!--quoteo(post=1971191:date=Sep 4 2012, 04:02 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 4 2012, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think a LOT of you are missing the point he is making.. and just trying to tell him he is wrong because your experiences do not match up with him or you simply have not observed what he has observed: this does not mean it did not happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a thread full of anecdotes. I don't think it's our job to provide the numbers and proof. OP's post is based on encouraging an indefinite amount of change to yet to be defined numbers and triggers. They're just vague claims that anybody could provide. Which we are. Sherwood was actually coherent at the beginning of the thread, but now it's all devolved to "I saw this", which I can (and did) contribute to.
I frankly think this discussion should be moved to the Ideas and Suggestions forum where actual numbers can be detailed and hammered out. It might actually productive instead of a bunch of people saying this and that. Otherwise it's the same old.
<!--quoteo(post=1971207:date=Sep 4 2012, 06:25 PM:name=Heyman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heyman @ Sep 4 2012, 06:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a thread full of anecdotes. I don't think it's our job to provide the numbers and proof. OP's post is based on encouraging an indefinite amount of change to yet to be defined numbers and triggers. They're just vague claims that anybody could provide. Which we are. Sherwood was actually coherent at the beginning of the thread, but now it's all devolved to "I saw this", which I can (and did) contribute.
I frankly think this discussion should be moved to the Ideas and Suggestions forum where actual numbers can be detailed and hammered out. It might actually productive instead of a bunch of people saying this and that. Otherwise it's the same old.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact is quite simple there is no limit to the fades capability at all.
^ that is the underlying problem in its whole design
<!--quoteo(post=1971205:date=Sep 4 2012, 04:24 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971205"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As i said at the start of the thread I have played ns1 since the beginning. I have also played CS, CS:S, pretty much every fps game made from 1990-2012, even the crap cod series before it turned into modern warfare. I am no newb to fps gameplay nor NS1 or 2, fades were more op in NS1 then they are in NS2. I also was pretty heavy into RTS games like warcraft, civiliation, ect, ect, there is no end to the list of rts's especially command and conquer which has an almost endless number of titles/exp packs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
your relative skill in FPS not ns1 or ns2 is irrelevant. We are talking about players who may have devoted 90% of their free time to ns1 for 5+ years. You are being out played. The K:Ds you are talking about don't happen when the skill levels of the teams are even.
NS1 is pretty well balanced at this point, and I wouldn't say fades where OP in ns1, but they were much more rare. Killing a fade in ns1 was a big deal, depending on when it happens, it can win you the game. Killing a fade in ns2 doesn't effect the game a lot of the time because the can just fade again, or there are 3+ on the battle field.
If you're trying to face down 3-5 fades (depending on team sizes) with blink at around the 4-5:00 mark and you don't have a whole mess of shotguns to do it with, it's because you lost the early game resource war. I'm seeing all these complaints about SWARMS OF FADES and stuff, and I see them in-game too, when I'm playing on a marine team that never even entered LOS of an alien RT in the first three minutes.
If you're not putting pressure on alien RTs within the first 120 seconds of the game, you're already at a disadvantage. Don't be surprised if that advantage gets pressed.
Edit: tres-purchased fades may be an issue in 6v6 competitive play? I have no idea. In the casts of competitive games I've watched though, I've been able to call the outcome within the first two minutes.
It'd be really interesting to see some of these pub games people are complaining about from the POV of a spectator with the spectating mod Ryne uses, so you can see that one side or the other is 250 resources ahead (or more).
<!--quoteo(post=1971215:date=Sep 4 2012, 06:53 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Sep 4 2012, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971215"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->your relative skill in FPS not ns1 or ns2 is irrelevant. We are talking about players who may have devoted 90% of their free time to ns1 for 5+ years. You are being out played. The K:Ds you are talking about don't happen when the skill levels of the teams are even.
NS1 is pretty well balanced at this point, and I wouldn't say fades where OP in ns1, but they were much more rare. Killing a fade in ns1 was a big deal, depending on when it happens, it can win you the game. Killing a fade in ns2 doesn't effect the game a lot of the time because the can just fade again, or there are 3+ on the battle field.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When one player is responsible for winning a game that is based on teamwork something is wrong. These are the players your describing.
<!--quoteo(post=1971210:date=Sep 4 2012, 04:32 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 04:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971210"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact is quite simple there is no limit to the fades capability at all.
^ that is the underlying problem in its whole design<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fade+skill level = whatever the persons skill level/cheating ability is
If hes good maybe he gets 40 kills for the game if he sucks he dies and loses his fade But if he is either a diehard fade from ns1 superskilled/cheater theres no actual limit to how many times he can swipe/blink/regen
marines have to reload fades don't marines run out of jp fuel, faded almost never run out of adrenaline in a situation that matters Marines can buy exo's and can't easily get back to a repair bay, fades can and very easily I might add Exo's can't chase down a fade and kill it, but fades can chase down an exo. Jp's can't chase down a fade but fades can chase down a jper
The skill level of the player is supposed to augment the abilitys of the class not turn it into godmode
<!--quoteo(post=1971222:date=Sep 4 2012, 07:12 PM:name=Heyman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heyman @ Sep 4 2012, 07:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All I see are claims.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know what I see, A champion for the fade class, you see what you want to see because its the class you choose to play.
<!--quoteo(post=1971227:date=Sep 4 2012, 07:17 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 07:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971227"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know what I see, A champion for the fade class, you see what you want to see because its the class you choose to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I said: then do it.
Post the screenshots and the video. Let's see your K:D ratio. I want to see you single-handedly winning games as a fade. And I especially want to see you do it consistently vs. marine teams that are successfully applying pressure to alien RTs and keeping your team to 1-2 nodes most of the time.
<!--quoteo(post=1971236:date=Sep 4 2012, 07:21 PM:name=paella)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paella @ Sep 4 2012, 07:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like I said: then do it.
Post the screenshots and the video. Let's see your K:D ratio. I want to see you single-handedly winning games as a fade. And I especially want to see you do it consistently vs. marine teams that are successfully applying pressure to alien RTs and keeping your team to 1-2 nodes most of the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no intention of cheating to achieve the level of play these fades do. You can observe them in many of the servers currently open if you wait long enough. One of them will eventually log in and ruin that servers gameplay til he logs off. One of them was the admin of the server all in #2 name humm
Another was on a euro server went by the name draco
I watched 2 very skilled players on the nexil gaming server do the same, and win with a 10 marines 7 alien disadvantage.
I will however attempt to take a video of them while doing it, more often then now however whenever you go to spectate around one of these guys, they take measures against being detected.
One of them simply sat in spawn the entire time while i was in spectate, the admin went to the rr and threatened to boot me to which he got vehamet protests by the entire server. he then proceeded to do the same thing as the other guy sit in spawn until i left spectate.
one of them sat in spawn from start of the game to finish and ended with a 54-3 death ratio.
Wait, I thought fades were unbalanced? If they're cheating then that's hardly a balance problem.
Anyway, I didn't tell you to cheat, I told you to do it. If they're OP and unbalanced then you should be able to do the sorts of things that you're saying are easy. If it's <i>hard</i> to be a good fade, then that's not a balance issue either, good players should beat worse players, especially when the good player is piloting a 50-res lifeform.
If you personally can't do it, then you're blowing hot air.
p.s.: I basically ignore every accusation of "cheating" without a demo or video, having been accused of aimbotting and (more often) wallhacking back in the ns1 days, and that's with there having been a huge skill gulf between me and the very best players.
You can't nerf life forms just because new players have no chance against good players who have played this game for 3 years now.
There is plenty of things you can do against fades:
- MAC emp killing his energy - flame thrower slowing his energy regen - shotguns - blocking his escape paths - nano shield a marine (so the fade needs 8 hits without medspam) etc.
I was friendly at first, but you obviously have no damn clue.
You are a troll.
ps: no ###### way you played competitive level ns1 since 1.04. Someone with that level of experience would have more of a clue. More likely you played as a casual ns1 player on and off.
Did you know its 2-3 shotguns shots to kill a fade? If two marines can't land this, its a problem with aim.
<!--quoteo(post=1971220:date=Sep 4 2012, 05:06 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971220"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When one player is responsible for winning a game that is based on teamwork something is wrong. These are the players your describing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS has always been a game where teamwork and individual skill are equally important. It can't be a competitive game unless this is the case.
You are playing with people who are way above the average skill level of the server.
Imagine if you and your friends tried to play soccer with even a single pro-player. That one person could steam roll every one on your team for free... it would be a massacre. Would that be a problem with soccer as a game, or a problem with the meta-game surrounding that particular match?
Well the Fade is very bery powefull in the hands of a good player. F.e. when I am Fade I just blink in Swipe once get out regen a bit and redo it, till the Armory has no more energy and 4 rines are sitting around to get armor back -> time to pick em off. Fades always go for the weakest/fleeing Marine.
Well we wont start to talk about K/D if the Marines have A0 and are a 2 swipekill for any Fade, that happens alot on Pub these days.
They are not Killing machines they just pick one player out of those 4-5 Marines and only attack this guy till he is down, Fade needs alot of brain to play, 1 fault, 1 marine around the wrong corner or just a Nade/Mine in the escaperoute and the Fade is gone! Nah he isn't! There is still feign death....
The OP doesn't know how much time some players spended on just playing/training 1 Lifeform. I can remember those loong nights just training on the Skulkjumpmap or 1on1 on the private Servers.
The only real problem we have now is the skilldifference, I bet I can survive longer as Skulk in a full Marinebase than you as Fade/Onos would. The goal is to get in get 1 bite down and distract the whole team and the regenerate to repeat that.
The problematic with the Fade is his Shadowstep combined with blink. You can f.e. blink up and shadowstep down to the Marine, or even fleeing is great with this combo the speed boost when a shadowstep starts after a blink is enormous but needs alot of practise. And the whole blinkmechanic is now almost identical to NS1 just do a short klick fir blink and get adre back instead of holding blink for 3s.
Can't wait for October with the big crowd whining around that those Black Armor Guys are cheaters! All of them! They are from the dark side!
<!--quoteo(post=1971227:date=Sep 4 2012, 08:17 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 08:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971227"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But if he is either a diehard fade from ns1 superskilled/cheater theres no actual limit to how many times he can swipe/blink/regen<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not even gonna bother re-quoting all of your (Sherwood) baseless claims.
All of your ideas of nerfing the Fade revolve around one cause: the skilled player.
Making the hitboxes bigger? You can't be serious LOL!
Seriously, I've never been so pissed off at someone wanting to nerf a class because of people who actually know how to play the game are at the top of their game.
The fade right now is probably the most balanced I've seen, especially in the face of Jetpacks. Not so much against Exo's.
And no, Fades in NS1 were far more formidable to their NS2 counter-parts.
<!--quoteo(post=1971399:date=Sep 4 2012, 08:50 PM:name=Zomb3h)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zomb3h @ Sep 4 2012, 08:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971399"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not even gonna bother re-quoting all of your (Sherwood) baseless claims.
All of your ideas of nerfing the Fade revolve around one cause: the skilled player.
Making the hitboxes bigger? You can't be serious LOL!
Seriously, I've never been so pissed off at someone wanting to nerf a class because of people who actually know how to play the game are at the top of their game.
The fade right now is probably the most balanced I've seen, especially in the face of Jetpacks. Not so much against Exo's.
And no, Fades in NS1 were far more formidable to their NS2 counter-parts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am pretty sure i said the fades in ns1 were worse you can go find the quote if you want.
I am not trolling I can assure you, and I am very serious.
There is apparently no way to explain to a fade how ridiculous the fade class is in general play. Probably because most diehard fades only play alien. because the moment someone says anything about fades as a class the whole fade army rises up to defend there exploitation of the class.
Don't worry I fully expected plenty of trolling of the thread before I ever posted it. People get the same thing when they speak up on a server with a 70-4 fade. But no yea it should totally be possible for someone to go 70-4 on a server or 140-8. Because that is the way game desiners make games right? with possibilitys for one person to crush an entire team. I don't belive it's skill alone I belive the fade class as a whole is broken to the point where it can ruin a game just by being played by a person with intimate knowledge of the class. Can you say the same for any other class in NS2?
Go fade with Joe or Lockleer on the marine team and then tell me their over powered.
You are abosolutely over generalizing your anecdotal accounts of encountering Fades. I for one am one of those people who often gets some kind of absurd KDR while playing as a Fade (and as a skulk for that matter). And the reason I know you're over generalizing is because I've actually played games where I went 80-7 as a Fade, AND LOST.
Just because you have one unkillable rambo Fade by no means gurentees your victory. Likewise, a Team of average Fades does not spell Doom for the marines. It take 4 swipes to kill a single marine when they have full upgrades, and just 2 full on blasts from a leveled shotgun to kill a Fade without Carapace (and most of us take Regen).
The only reason a Fade can kill marines like it does is because it is so incredibly mobile. What you've failed to consider in your arguement is that there is no other Lifeform available to the Aliens that serves as a midgame deterent for the marines. As the marines begin getting upgrades, skulks get 1 shot by shotguns, and die in moments to LMG fire. It takes skill and patience to beat them, and while yes, it is much easier on a Fade, it is by no means a guarenteed thing.
I do not object to a discussion about whether or not the Fade is balanced, I object to your gross misrepresentation of their effect on gameplay. You are entitled to your opinion, but your suggestions impose nothing but limitations to the Alien gameplay, and do nothing to account for their need to deal with rapidly upgrading marine opponents.
You feel like Fades are over powered? Great, I'm glad you have an opinion and want to make a difference. But don't go basing everything you have to say on just your personal experiences. For as many times as you've lost to Aliens because of an excellent Fade player, I've been that Excellent Fade player and had my butt handed to my by a well coordinated marine team.
My Anecdotes are just as valid as yours, which is why both are equally meaningless when used to discuss mechanics.
I liked how OP fades were in NS1, and I like how OP they are in NS2. They cost 50 res and are damn well meant to be terrifying for marines. The problem imo is that there is too many of them in ns2, in ns1 even on 32 player servers one would rarely see more than 4 or 5. In ns2 even on 18 player servers you see that many. I think this is probably due to the new res system (which I also do not like). The only salvation is that most of these fades are playing nowhere near the fade's potential, but that is bound to change.
<!--quoteo(post=1971431:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:09 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 4 2012, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Go fade with Joe or Lockleer on the marine team and then tell me their over powered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Go marine with Joe and Locklear as fades and tell me theyre not OP.
<!--quoteo(post=1971431:date=Sep 4 2012, 09:09 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 4 2012, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Go fade with Joe or Lockleer on the marine team and then tell me their over powered.
You are abosolutely over generalizing your anecdotal accounts of encountering Fades. I for one am one of those people who often gets some kind of absurd KDR while playing as a Fade (and as a skulk for that matter). And the reason I know you're over generalizing is because I've actually played games where I went 80-7 as a Fade, AND LOST.
Just because you have one unkillable rambo Fade by no means gurentees your victory. Likewise, a Team of average Fades does not spell Doom for the marines. It take 4 swipes to kill a single marine when they have full upgrades, and just 2 full on blasts from a leveled shotgun to kill a Fade without Carapace (and most of us take Regen).
The only reason a Fade can kill marines like it does is because it is so incredibly mobile. What you've failed to consider in your arguement is that there is no other Lifeform available to the Aliens that serves as a midgame deterent for the marines. As the marines begin getting upgrades, skulks get 1 shot by shotguns, and die in moments to LMG fire. It takes skill and patience to beat them, and while yes, it is much easier on a Fade, it is by no means a guarenteed thing.
I do not object to a discussion about whether or not the Fade is balanced, I object to your gross misrepresentation of their effect on gameplay. You are entitled to your opinion, but your suggestions impose nothing but limitations to the Alien gameplay, and do nothing to account for their need to deal with rapidly upgrading marine opponents.
You feel like Fades are over powered? Great, I'm glad you have an opinion and want to make a difference. But don't go basing everything you have to say on just your personal experiences. For as many times as you've lost to Aliens because of an excellent Fade player, I've been that Excellent Fade player and had my butt handed to my by a well coordinated marine team.
My Anecdotes are just as valid as yours, which is why both are equally meaningless when used to discuss mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Straight from the horses mouth of a fade admitting to 80-7 games. I read your post I am not ignoring it but it becomes rather anecdotal and meaningless when you tell us you are one of the fades I am talking about.
Just for a second lets theorize 80 kills lets say half of those had weapons shotty, gl, flame, split em up by a 60(480 res on shotguns)/20(200 res on gls)/20(240res on flamethrowers) split and probably at least 20x10 people with jp thats 200 more res.
So you as a single player probably got rid of over 1120 pres. Gratz your not op at all
<!--quoteo(post=1971434:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:11 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971434"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Straight from the horses mouth of a fade admitting to 80-7 games. I read your post I am not ignoring it but it becomes rather anecdotal and meaningless when you tell us you are one of the fades I am talking about.
Just for a second lets theorize 80 kills lets say half of those had weapons shotty, gl, flame, split em up by a 60(480 res on shotguns)/20(200 res on gls)/20(240res on flamethrowers) split and probably at least 20x10 people with jp thats 200 more res.
So you as a single player probably got rid of over 1120 pres. Gratz your not op at all<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1971442:date=Sep 4 2012, 09:15 PM:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum @ Sep 4 2012, 09:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971442"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->he's obviously trolling<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Trolling would imply I don't care about the topic Trust me I do
<!--quoteo(post=1971438:date=Sep 4 2012, 09:14 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 4 2012, 09:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971438"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did you actually read my post then? Because if you had you might notice the parts where I mention that my team still loses despite my meaningless KDR.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I did you lost the game, marines can sometimes win just by a lucky and strong push into a hive when the enemy isn't ready I wouldn't call that evidence of anything other then you probably weren't where you were supposed to be at the right time. No doubt high on the euphoria of all the people you were killing to pay attention to the hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1971444:date=Sep 4 2012, 09:20 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 4 2012, 09:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gratz, my team still lost. Whats your point?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point is I am pretty sure you ruined the game for just about every marine on the enemy team.
If you go back a couple pages you will see the whole fun - antifun topic its pretty interesting for someone who probably just joined the thread an hour ago.
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited September 2012
Fades having ridiculous KDR is actually a conscious design decision. Let's compare 1 fade to 2 marines with Shotguns (they are equal on certain skill levels). A Fade costs 50 res which is definitely lost when he dies. Two shotguns cost 40 res and can in many cases be recovered from the ground after death, let's say on average about once per shotgun bought, so two shotguns cost 40 res total and last through 1 deaths each, while 1 Fade costs 50 and is completely gone after death.
This means that of course a good Fade will not die often. If Fades would die more often, they would not be worth their resource cost and Aliens would lose the game.
The best competitive games also never had artificial skill caps unless necessary and were never possible to be played to absolute perfection.
There may be balance problems on public games with some weapons or lifeforms, but that is to be expected in an asymmetric game. You cannot make every single lifeform, ability and weapon have exactly the same scaling with skill. It's just not possible.
I've also had 81-7 scores as a marine. Does that make marines OP?
Comments
Yea i just realized that too lol the invincble fades would be completely unaffected ;/
they might not be able to "run" as far but the result would be the same.
@op, your obviously new to the game. The fades your encountering have been playing ns1 at high-level comp for 7 years, you have no chance no matter what you do. When the game is 1.0, there will be more players your skill level. Just hold out mate... Current beta players are the die-hard fans
Thank you, that is all.
@op, your obviously new to the game. The fades your encountering have been playing ns1 at high-level comp for 7 years, you have no chance no matter what you do. When the game is 1.0, there will be more players your skill level. Just hold out mate... Current beta players are the die-hard fans<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As i said at the start of the thread I have played ns1 since the beginning. I have also played CS, CS:S, pretty much every fps game made from 1990-2012, even the crap cod series before it turned into modern warfare. I am no newb to fps gameplay nor NS1 or 2, fades were more op in NS1 then they are in NS2. I also was pretty heavy into RTS games like warcraft, civiliation, ect, ect, there is no end to the list of rts's especially command and conquer which has an almost endless number of titles/exp packs.
This is a thread full of anecdotes. I don't think it's our job to provide the numbers and proof. OP's post is based on encouraging an indefinite amount of change to yet to be defined numbers and triggers. They're just vague claims that anybody could provide. Which we are. Sherwood was actually coherent at the beginning of the thread, but now it's all devolved to "I saw this", which I can (and did) contribute to.
I frankly think this discussion should be moved to the Ideas and Suggestions forum where actual numbers can be detailed and hammered out. It might actually productive instead of a bunch of people saying this and that. Otherwise it's the same old.
I frankly think this discussion should be moved to the Ideas and Suggestions forum where actual numbers can be detailed and hammered out. It might actually productive instead of a bunch of people saying this and that. Otherwise it's the same old.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact is quite simple there is no limit to the fades capability at all.
^ that is the underlying problem in its whole design
your relative skill in FPS not ns1 or ns2 is irrelevant. We are talking about players who may have devoted 90% of their free time to ns1 for 5+ years. You are being out played. The K:Ds you are talking about don't happen when the skill levels of the teams are even.
NS1 is pretty well balanced at this point, and I wouldn't say fades where OP in ns1, but they were much more rare. Killing a fade in ns1 was a big deal, depending on when it happens, it can win you the game. Killing a fade in ns2 doesn't effect the game a lot of the time because the can just fade again, or there are 3+ on the battle field.
If you're not putting pressure on alien RTs within the first 120 seconds of the game, you're already at a disadvantage. Don't be surprised if that advantage gets pressed.
Edit: tres-purchased fades may be an issue in 6v6 competitive play? I have no idea. In the casts of competitive games I've watched though, I've been able to call the outcome within the first two minutes.
It'd be really interesting to see some of these pub games people are complaining about from the POV of a spectator with the spectating mod Ryne uses, so you can see that one side or the other is 250 resources ahead (or more).
NS1 is pretty well balanced at this point, and I wouldn't say fades where OP in ns1, but they were much more rare. Killing a fade in ns1 was a big deal, depending on when it happens, it can win you the game. Killing a fade in ns2 doesn't effect the game a lot of the time because the can just fade again, or there are 3+ on the battle field.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When one player is responsible for winning a game that is based on teamwork something is wrong. These are the players your describing.
^ that is the underlying problem in its whole design<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I see are claims.
Class+Skill level =(not to exceed X limit)
Fade+skill level = whatever the persons skill level/cheating ability is
If hes good maybe he gets 40 kills for the game
if he sucks he dies and loses his fade
But if he is either a diehard fade from ns1 superskilled/cheater theres no actual limit to how many times he can swipe/blink/regen
marines have to reload fades don't
marines run out of jp fuel, faded almost never run out of adrenaline in a situation that matters
Marines can buy exo's and can't easily get back to a repair bay, fades can and very easily I might add
Exo's can't chase down a fade and kill it, but fades can chase down an exo.
Jp's can't chase down a fade but fades can chase down a jper
The skill level of the player is supposed to augment the abilitys of the class not turn it into godmode
<!--quoteo(post=1971222:date=Sep 4 2012, 07:12 PM:name=Heyman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heyman @ Sep 4 2012, 07:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All I see are claims.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know what I see, A champion for the fade class, you see what you want to see because its the class you choose to play.
Like I said: then do it.
Post the screenshots and the video. Let's see your K:D ratio. I want to see you single-handedly winning games as a fade. And I especially want to see you do it consistently vs. marine teams that are successfully applying pressure to alien RTs and keeping your team to 1-2 nodes most of the time.
Post the screenshots and the video. Let's see your K:D ratio. I want to see you single-handedly winning games as a fade. And I especially want to see you do it consistently vs. marine teams that are successfully applying pressure to alien RTs and keeping your team to 1-2 nodes most of the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no intention of cheating to achieve the level of play these fades do. You can observe them in many of the servers currently open if you wait long enough. One of them will eventually log in and ruin that servers gameplay til he logs off. One of them was the admin of the server all in #2 name humm
Another was on a euro server went by the name draco
I watched 2 very skilled players on the nexil gaming server do the same, and win with a 10 marines 7 alien disadvantage.
I will however attempt to take a video of them while doing it, more often then now however whenever you go to spectate around one of these guys, they take measures against being detected.
One of them simply sat in spawn the entire time while i was in spectate, the admin went to the rr and threatened to boot me to which he got vehamet protests by the entire server. he then proceeded to do the same thing as the other guy sit in spawn until i left spectate.
one of them sat in spawn from start of the game to finish and ended with a 54-3 death ratio.
Anyway, I didn't tell you to cheat, I told you to do it. If they're OP and unbalanced then you should be able to do the sorts of things that you're saying are easy. If it's <i>hard</i> to be a good fade, then that's not a balance issue either, good players should beat worse players, especially when the good player is piloting a 50-res lifeform.
If you personally can't do it, then you're blowing hot air.
p.s.: I basically ignore every accusation of "cheating" without a demo or video, having been accused of aimbotting and (more often) wallhacking back in the ns1 days, and that's with there having been a huge skill gulf between me and the very best players.
You can't nerf life forms just because new players have no chance against good players who have played this game for 3 years now.
There is plenty of things you can do against fades:
- MAC emp killing his energy
- flame thrower slowing his energy regen
- shotguns
- blocking his escape paths
- nano shield a marine (so the fade needs 8 hits without medspam)
etc.
Fades don't win you the game, team play does.
You are a troll.
ps: no ###### way you played competitive level ns1 since 1.04. Someone with that level of experience would have more of a clue. More likely you played as a casual ns1 player on and off.
Did you know its 2-3 shotguns shots to kill a fade? If two marines can't land this, its a problem with aim.
NS has always been a game where teamwork and individual skill are equally important. It can't be a competitive game unless this is the case.
You are playing with people who are way above the average skill level of the server.
Imagine if you and your friends tried to play soccer with even a single pro-player. That one person could steam roll every one on your team for free... it would be a massacre. Would that be a problem with soccer as a game, or a problem with the meta-game surrounding that particular match?
F.e. when I am Fade I just blink in Swipe once get out regen a bit and redo it, till the Armory has no more energy and 4 rines are sitting around to get armor back -> time to pick em off. Fades always go for the weakest/fleeing Marine.
Well we wont start to talk about K/D if the Marines have A0 and are a 2 swipekill for any Fade, that happens alot on Pub these days.
They are not Killing machines they just pick one player out of those 4-5 Marines and only attack this guy till he is down, Fade needs alot of brain to play, 1 fault, 1 marine around the wrong corner or just a Nade/Mine in the escaperoute and the Fade is gone! Nah he isn't! There is still feign death....
The OP doesn't know how much time some players spended on just playing/training 1 Lifeform. I can remember those loong nights just training on the Skulkjumpmap or 1on1 on the private Servers.
The only real problem we have now is the skilldifference, I bet I can survive longer as Skulk in a full Marinebase than you as Fade/Onos would. The goal is to get in get 1 bite down and distract the whole team and the regenerate to repeat that.
The problematic with the Fade is his Shadowstep combined with blink.
You can f.e. blink up and shadowstep down to the Marine, or even fleeing is great with this combo the speed boost when a shadowstep starts after a blink is enormous but needs alot of practise. And the whole blinkmechanic is now almost identical to NS1 just do a short klick fir blink and get adre back instead of holding blink for 3s.
Can't wait for October with the big crowd whining around that those Black Armor Guys are cheaters! All of them! They are from the dark side!
Can't argue with that logic.
All of your ideas of nerfing the Fade revolve around one cause: the skilled player.
Making the hitboxes bigger? You can't be serious LOL!
Seriously, I've never been so pissed off at someone wanting to nerf a class because of people who actually know how to play the game are at the top of their game.
The fade right now is probably the most balanced I've seen, especially in the face of Jetpacks. Not so much against Exo's.
And no, Fades in NS1 were far more formidable to their NS2 counter-parts.
All of your ideas of nerfing the Fade revolve around one cause: the skilled player.
Making the hitboxes bigger? You can't be serious LOL!
Seriously, I've never been so pissed off at someone wanting to nerf a class because of people who actually know how to play the game are at the top of their game.
The fade right now is probably the most balanced I've seen, especially in the face of Jetpacks. Not so much against Exo's.
And no, Fades in NS1 were far more formidable to their NS2 counter-parts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am pretty sure i said the fades in ns1 were worse you can go find the quote if you want.
I am not trolling I can assure you, and I am very serious.
There is apparently no way to explain to a fade how ridiculous the fade class is in general play. Probably because most diehard fades only play alien. because the moment someone says anything about fades as a class the whole fade army rises up to defend there exploitation of the class.
Don't worry I fully expected plenty of trolling of the thread before I ever posted it. People get the same thing when they speak up on a server with a 70-4 fade. But no yea it should totally be possible for someone to go 70-4 on a server or 140-8. Because that is the way game desiners make games right? with possibilitys for one person to crush an entire team. I don't belive it's skill alone I belive the fade class as a whole is broken to the point where it can ruin a game just by being played by a person with intimate knowledge of the class. Can you say the same for any other class in NS2?
You are abosolutely over generalizing your anecdotal accounts of encountering Fades. I for one am one of those people who often gets some kind of absurd KDR while playing as a Fade (and as a skulk for that matter). And the reason I know you're over generalizing is because I've actually played games where I went 80-7 as a Fade, AND LOST.
Just because you have one unkillable rambo Fade by no means gurentees your victory. Likewise, a Team of average Fades does not spell Doom for the marines. It take 4 swipes to kill a single marine when they have full upgrades, and just 2 full on blasts from a leveled shotgun to kill a Fade without Carapace (and most of us take Regen).
The only reason a Fade can kill marines like it does is because it is so incredibly mobile. What you've failed to consider in your arguement is that there is no other Lifeform available to the Aliens that serves as a midgame deterent for the marines. As the marines begin getting upgrades, skulks get 1 shot by shotguns, and die in moments to LMG fire. It takes skill and patience to beat them, and while yes, it is much easier on a Fade, it is by no means a guarenteed thing.
I do not object to a discussion about whether or not the Fade is balanced, I object to your gross misrepresentation of their effect on gameplay. You are entitled to your opinion, but your suggestions impose nothing but limitations to the Alien gameplay, and do nothing to account for their need to deal with rapidly upgrading marine opponents.
You feel like Fades are over powered? Great, I'm glad you have an opinion and want to make a difference. But don't go basing everything you have to say on just your personal experiences. For as many times as you've lost to Aliens because of an excellent Fade player, I've been that Excellent Fade player and had my butt handed to my by a well coordinated marine team.
My Anecdotes are just as valid as yours, which is why both are equally meaningless when used to discuss mechanics.
<!--quoteo(post=1971431:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:09 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 4 2012, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Go fade with Joe or Lockleer on the marine team and then tell me their over powered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Go marine with Joe and Locklear as fades and tell me theyre not OP.
You are abosolutely over generalizing your anecdotal accounts of encountering Fades. I for one am one of those people who often gets some kind of absurd KDR while playing as a Fade (and as a skulk for that matter). And the reason I know you're over generalizing is because I've actually played games where I went 80-7 as a Fade, AND LOST.
Just because you have one unkillable rambo Fade by no means gurentees your victory. Likewise, a Team of average Fades does not spell Doom for the marines. It take 4 swipes to kill a single marine when they have full upgrades, and just 2 full on blasts from a leveled shotgun to kill a Fade without Carapace (and most of us take Regen).
The only reason a Fade can kill marines like it does is because it is so incredibly mobile. What you've failed to consider in your arguement is that there is no other Lifeform available to the Aliens that serves as a midgame deterent for the marines. As the marines begin getting upgrades, skulks get 1 shot by shotguns, and die in moments to LMG fire. It takes skill and patience to beat them, and while yes, it is much easier on a Fade, it is by no means a guarenteed thing.
I do not object to a discussion about whether or not the Fade is balanced, I object to your gross misrepresentation of their effect on gameplay. You are entitled to your opinion, but your suggestions impose nothing but limitations to the Alien gameplay, and do nothing to account for their need to deal with rapidly upgrading marine opponents.
You feel like Fades are over powered? Great, I'm glad you have an opinion and want to make a difference. But don't go basing everything you have to say on just your personal experiences. For as many times as you've lost to Aliens because of an excellent Fade player, I've been that Excellent Fade player and had my butt handed to my by a well coordinated marine team.
My Anecdotes are just as valid as yours, which is why both are equally meaningless when used to discuss mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Straight from the horses mouth of a fade admitting to 80-7 games. I read your post I am not ignoring it but it becomes rather anecdotal and meaningless when you tell us you are one of the fades I am talking about.
Just for a second lets theorize 80 kills lets say half of those had weapons shotty, gl, flame, split em up by a 60(480 res on shotguns)/20(200 res on gls)/20(240res on flamethrowers) split and probably at least 20x10 people with jp thats 200 more res.
So you as a single player probably got rid of over 1120 pres. Gratz your not op at all
Just for a second lets theorize 80 kills lets say half of those had weapons shotty, gl, flame, split em up by a 60(480 res on shotguns)/20(200 res on gls)/20(240res on flamethrowers) split and probably at least 20x10 people with jp thats 200 more res.
So you as a single player probably got rid of over 1120 pres. Gratz your not op at all<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gratz, my team still lost. Whats your point?
Trolling would imply I don't care about the topic Trust me I do
<!--quoteo(post=1971438:date=Sep 4 2012, 09:14 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 4 2012, 09:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971438"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did you actually read my post then? Because if you had you might notice the parts where I mention that my team still loses despite my meaningless KDR.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I did you lost the game, marines can sometimes win just by a lucky and strong push into a hive when the enemy isn't ready I wouldn't call that evidence of anything other then you probably weren't where you were supposed to be at the right time. No doubt high on the euphoria of all the people you were killing to pay attention to the hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1971444:date=Sep 4 2012, 09:20 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 4 2012, 09:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gratz, my team still lost. Whats your point?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point is I am pretty sure you ruined the game for just about every marine on the enemy team.
If you go back a couple pages you will see the whole fun - antifun topic its pretty interesting for someone who probably just joined the thread an hour ago.
This means that of course a good Fade will not die often. If Fades would die more often, they would not be worth their resource cost and Aliens would lose the game.
The best competitive games also never had artificial skill caps unless necessary and were never possible to be played to absolute perfection.
There may be balance problems on public games with some weapons or lifeforms, but that is to be expected in an asymmetric game. You cannot make every single lifeform, ability and weapon have exactly the same scaling with skill. It's just not possible.
I've also had 81-7 scores as a marine. Does that make marines OP?