<!--quoteo(post=1976477:date=Sep 13 2012, 06:55 AM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Sep 13 2012, 06:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976477"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find it hilarious that you doubt that it was changed. Go look in the lau next time.
The lerk is far from from perfect, but I'd rather do a small amount of changes and see how they go before changing it more. Also only 2-3 people are even able to give any sort of feedback for the lerk, so it's hard to work out values. You're welcome to do that yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know the numbers of lerk players in testing is low but thank you guys for continuing to push (must feel a little outnumbered in the balance discussion with only 3 actually playing lerk).
The recent changes are starting to get the lerk to a usable point, well compared to a couple of builds ago it is playable. But compared to where it needs to be there is still some work needed...which I am sure the lerk'ers would agree.
The lerk is useless once exo's are out. Onos, Fade, skulk...heck even gorges do damage to exo's..lerks are too fragile and lack manouverability up close in battle to be any good against exo's. Sitting back with Umbra does not really help if marines are doing the right thing and healing the exo's. Giving the lerk a way to help break up the numbers of marines around an exo will provide it a nice little slot in the late game for aliens. Would be good to be able to force marines to choose between healing exo and living, sure a lerk might get 1 pass now but thats not really enough to do any good. Really he needs to be able to stay sporing for 1-2 minutes of the battle. Dive bombing wont allow for this so some form of ranged spore needs to be considered.
I also think the flap mechanic costing energy blows..despite my best efforts I still end up flat footed in the middle of a battle at times...sure it may be my lack of awareness but it seems like a huge penalty for a fragile lifeform.
Anyway keep up the good the fight for the lerk your efforts are appreciated :D
Can someone explain to me why the lerk changed so much from NS1? I really don't get the new direction for the lerk, at all. I imagine copying and pasting the lerk from NS1 into NS2 and fail to understand why it wouldn't work. (if that ###### worked my job would be so much easier!)
<!--quoteo(post=1976604:date=Sep 12 2012, 07:36 PM:name=[R8]DJBourgeoisie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([R8]DJBourgeoisie @ Sep 12 2012, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976604"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Can someone explain to me why the lerk changed so much from NS1? I really don't get the new direction for the lerk, at all. I imagine copying and pasting the lerk from NS1 into NS2 and fail to understand why it wouldn't work. (if that ###### worked my job would be so much easier!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A bunch of whiners didn't like having to move out of spore clouds and find the lerk shooting them. They also found that when lerks were fast in NS2, their bullets mysteriously couldn't hit them.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1976604:date=Sep 12 2012, 07:36 PM:name=[R8]DJBourgeoisie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([R8]DJBourgeoisie @ Sep 12 2012, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976604"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Can someone explain to me why the lerk changed so much from NS1? I really don't get the new direction for the lerk, at all. I imagine copying and pasting the lerk from NS1 into NS2 and fail to understand why it wouldn't work. (if that ###### worked my job would be so much easier!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerk has been very challenging to balance primarily because of performance. I doubt we've seen the last of the changes, either
I still think that they need to swap spores and spikes back, that or give spikes some actual damage. Their supposed to be a shotgun style risk/reward, get in close for damage but expose yourself to easy damage. However even right next to someone they do pittiful damage and your tiny health pool makes you very easy to take out even whilst dodging around.
Spores and umbra are in a good place but spikes and the general health/mobility balance feel... off.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1976681:date=Sep 12 2012, 05:33 PM:name=RobustPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobustPenguin @ Sep 12 2012, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976681"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still think that they need to swap spores and spikes back, that or give spikes some actual damage. Their supposed to be a shotgun style risk/reward, get in close for damage but expose yourself to easy damage. However even right next to someone they do pittiful damage and your tiny health pool makes you very easy to take out even whilst dodging around.
Spores and umbra are in a good place but spikes and the general health/mobility balance feel... off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats because the lerk has been recently changed into more of a combat role than the harasser/support role so that it works better in higher levels of play.. sooo its going to go through more growing pains in the last hour before 1.0
I obviously agree with your suggestion regarding spores (as do a lot in this thread it seems) but i dont think we can convince UWE after these current changes were insisted on so strongly already... :-/ We'll just have to wait and see
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1976600:date=Sep 12 2012, 07:33 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Sep 12 2012, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976600"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also think the flap mechanic costing energy blows..despite my best efforts I still end up flat footed in the middle of a battle at times...sure it may be my lack of awareness but it seems like a huge penalty for a fragile lifeform.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can't balance HP/AP until performance has plateaued a bit first. Makes it impossible to do so before then.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I obviously agree with your suggestion regarding spores (as do a lot in this thread it seems) but i dont think we can convince UWE after these current changes were insisted on so strongly already... :-/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1976798:date=Sep 13 2012, 01:44 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Sep 13 2012, 01:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976798"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can't balance HP/AP until performance has plateaued a bit first. Makes it impossible to do so before then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed, but those should be subtle tweaks anyway and are not whats limiting the lerk currently. Flapping and energy I thinks broken, I also think the flight mechanics changed again slightly for lerk I swear the camera angle or collision boxes have changed.
The lerk is not meant to get into the heat of a battle late game, well that or there is a hell of a lot of buffing that he needs. I dont think the lerk needs to be buffed heavily with armour and HP...more than happy for his role to be more standoff'ish.
Currently though he either sits back with spikes (default ability) or risks suicide by trying to spore.
Similar to a gorge...lerks never want to venture into the heat of the battle but sit back slightly as they dont have the ability to deal enough damage against what they will soak up. Lerks are ok up to mid game before exo's come out, once they come out lerks are in trouble. W3 hurt lerks a lot..shotties are nightmare material...and exo's may as well be the living dead to a lerk.
Give him back ranged spores and umbra (simply combine these two back I reckon)...but at the very least give him ranged spores back. Umbra is defensive...not offensive, so does nothing to motivate marines not to be in welding distance of exo's.
Right now lerk is perfect as long as the following criteria are satisfied.
Regen, Adrenaline and spores are researched.
When I have those 3, I find it nearly impossible to die and I have probably died 3 times in the last 10 games I played as lerk with those upgrades.
I think the real problem is the use of lerks without the tri-force of upgrades. I never even consider going lerk without the trinity, I mean spikes don't really do that much damage, and vs marines with shotguns bite is asking to have your face blown off.
I would like it if lerks had spores early games that were weaker, but had the ability to upgrade spore damage once the second hive is down. The current 20/dmg spores are extremely powerful and will wipe out entire squads of marines if they are not careful. We cannot have that in 1 hive. But the current spike/bite lerk at 1 hive is borderline useless. And a lerk without adrenaline/regen is pretty much asking to die.
What do I suggest? A change in spikes, make them a support ability, make them not have to rely on constantly shooting marines for peanuts. How?
A few ideas.
Add a poison effect to spikes that only effects armor. Add a short snare effect to spikes. Bring spores to T1, naturally increase their damage per hive down (could be represented by gas colour) or add rank level upgrades to spores based off hives. Make spikes do anything besides flat damage really.
I really think the lerk is perfect for 2+ hives, assuming you go craig/shift which everyone does since shade has been outclassed. But 1 hive lerks are pretty much useless to be honest.
We should define some basic design goals, imo the main ones would be :
1) A lerk should be better than a skulk (30 res vs 0) 2) A lerk should beat a vanilla marine more than often (30 res vs 0) 3) A lerk should have enough energy to perform usual actions (engage 1-2 marines) and fly away, with some margin for small mistakes. 4) A lerk shouldn't be one shotted by a shotgun (no hard counter).
I think 3) is mainly fine now I think. I'm not sure about the other ones. Can you get one shotted by a shotgun? Do spikes out-dps rifles ? How does lerk bite dps compare to the skulk ?
<!--quoteo(post=1976939:date=Sep 13 2012, 07:59 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Sep 13 2012, 07:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976939"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We should define some basic design goals, imo the main ones would be :
1) A lerk should be better than a skulk (30 res vs 0) 2) A lerk should beat a vanilla marine more than often (30 res vs 0) 3) A lerk should have enough energy to perform usual actions (engage 1-2 marines) and fly away, with some margin for small mistakes. 4) A lerk shouldn't be one shotted by a shotgun (no hard counter).
I think 3) is mainly fine now I think. I'm not sure about the other ones. Can you get one shotted by a shotgun? Do spikes out-dps rifles ? How does lerk bite dps compare to the skulk ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nicely summed up. If spike spread was reduced you would be tackling problems 1, 2, 3, 4 imo. Not necessarily solving them fully but it'd be a small step with a large direct impact unlike buffing hps/armours and causing ripple imbalances.
<!--quoteo(post=1976950:date=Sep 13 2012, 11:46 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Sep 13 2012, 11:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nicely summed up. If spike spread was reduced you would be tackling problems 1, 2, 3, 4 imo. Not necessarily solving them fully but it'd be a small step with a large direct impact unlike buffing hps/armours and causing ripple imbalances.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm still a little skeptical about spikelerking, especially with the NS2 res model. Basically what I see problematic:
<ul>1. The res model allows high lerk count without heavy commitment from the team. 2. The lerk's superior mobility allows it to pick the fights and firing angles it wants and as a result they rarely die unless the player makes a bigger mistake.</li></ul>
What I fear is that the marine team will spend the vast majority of time fighting aliens they really can't kill. It kind of happened in NS1 2.0 versions where the lerk had spikes and a flight model that wasn't really suited for biting. In NS2 res model and modern server size expectations we are talking about much bigger flock of lerks and much less commitment from the alien team though.
At this point some kind of spike oriented lerk might still be the best call, it's not like we've got too much time to figure out the major outlines.
Step in the right direction but I'd still like spores back as a first ability. If it's overpowered, like someone else said, nerf early 1 hive spores and have improved spores as a second hive ability.
My issue with Lerk right now is hardly anyone researches spores, by the time they do, exos/jps are rolling out and the usefulness drops significantly.
As the exalted originator of this thread, I feel it necessary to state that I am foursquare against ranged spores. In my opinion, the gameplay created by the current spores is invaluable, and should be balanced around, rather than balanced out.
On to something I dislike; Umbra's duration. Because it lasts for such a short time, a lerks entire purpose is consumed by Umbra at the moment. It isn't really feasible to use Umbra AND spores, for example, though you would be able to use bite/spikes and spores without much problem. I think it would be highly beneficial if the travel speed of the Umbra cloud was increased by quite a lot, and its duration was increased by about 150%. The area of effect could then be reduced by about 25%. This way, the Lerk could choose to either to go full time Umbra, carpeting entire rooms in the stuff, while being unable to do anything else, or he could choose to use Umbra and more offensive abilities, though he would then need greater strategic placement of Umbra, and his teammates would need to actively fight from within cover.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited September 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1976955:date=Sep 13 2012, 04:10 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Sep 13 2012, 04:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm still a little skeptical about spikelerking, especially with the NS2 res model. Basically what I see problematic:
<ul>1. The res model allows high lerk count without heavy commitment from the team. 2. The lerk's superior mobility allows it to pick the fights and firing angles it wants and as a result they rarely die unless the player makes a bigger mistake.</li></ul>
What I fear is that the marine team will spend the vast majority of time fighting aliens they really can't kill. It kind of happened in NS1 2.0 versions where the lerk had spikes and a flight model that wasn't really suited for biting. In NS2 res model and modern server size expectations we are talking about much bigger flock of lerks and much less commitment from the alien team though.
At this point some kind of spike oriented lerk might still be the best call, it's not like we've got too much time to figure out the major outlines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yup.. This is one of my major concerns with turning the lerk into this combat role instead of harasser & support - the soft RPS mechanics are lost as his specialization is removed and thus so is ineffectiveness when mass lerking occurs. Now you will see teams of cheap killers.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My issue with Lerk right now is hardly anyone researches spores, by the time they do, exos/jps are rolling out and the usefulness drops significantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The same can be said with spikes on hive two.
While switching spores back to hive one might "improve" lerks support role better, spores still becomes a death sentence by late game. And spikes do paltry damage by mid to late game (when they would have been researched on hive two), so spikes are not any better at keeping lerks relevant as the game progresses. By the time you have hive two, you should have near enough or close to enough resources to go fades anyway so there is absolutely no reason to dump 30 resources in a life form that's half as effective as skulks or fades in killing structures/marines.
The majority of the problems lerk has stems from its tech. It's horrible. Two close combat abilities and one semi-ranged ability that doesn't do anything effectively. Either spikes or bite needs to be cut and it's tech line improved.
Spikes and trail spores(that gasses a short distance in front of the lerk) or Bite and ranged spores on hive one. Umbra on hive two to give lerk its much needed support ability to flesh into the support/harasser mid game. Primal scream on hive three so that lerks can fall comfortably into a support role late game when spikes and spores can no longer effectively pressure marines and doing so usually means death.
Like I said before lerks were PERFECT the build where they had spores early on. Spikes were researched to give lerks more utility and they were decent against jetpacks. The path that they have taken the lerk down is horrible. UWE just wants to make him a flying skulk with a ranged attack. That's basically how he plays now, not a support role. Spikes don't always need to always be a must. Lerks don't need buffs so that people will use them instead of fades. Revert lerks back to how they were when they had spores starting out, just make spike spread tighter.
<!--quoteo(post=1977111:date=Sep 13 2012, 01:17 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Sep 13 2012, 01:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977111"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like I said before lerks were PERFECT the build where they had spores early on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. They were far from perfect. Just because people were happy sporing away doesn't mean lerks were effective or useful. Lerks still have a problem with mediocre abilities and a horrible techline.
So instead of trying to shoot for an "okay" early game lifeform, how about we brainstorm actually ways fix the lifeform so that it is usable throughout the entire course of a match.
<!--quoteo(post=1977126:date=Sep 13 2012, 01:36 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Sep 13 2012, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mediocre? You clearly have not seen the casted match where we went for a full lerk rush. It was very effective even with unbuffed spikes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I assume that it was a 6v6 match? Played by people in a clan or of having decent knowledge of each other?
So a group of skulks in a premade match couldn't have done the same thing as a full lerk rush using the same teamwork and communication?
<!--quoteo(post=1976955:date=Sep 13 2012, 09:10 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Sep 13 2012, 09:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm still a little skeptical about spikelerking, especially with the NS2 res model. Basically what I see problematic:
<ul>1. The res model allows high lerk count without heavy commitment from the team. 2. The lerk's superior mobility allows it to pick the fights and firing angles it wants and as a result they rarely die unless the player makes a bigger mistake.</li></ul>
What I fear is that the marine team will spend the vast majority of time fighting aliens they really can't kill. It kind of happened in NS1 2.0 versions where the lerk had spikes and a flight model that wasn't really suited for biting. In NS2 res model and modern server size expectations we are talking about much bigger flock of lerks and much less commitment from the alien team though.
At this point some kind of spike oriented lerk might still be the best call, it's not like we've got too much time to figure out the major outlines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup this is a real problem agreed - i should have been more specific. The lerk needs an effective ranged attack of some sort (ranged spores or spikes) otherwise we get the shotgun hard counter problem. For whatever reason UWE have decided it best to have melee spores which leaves us with effective ranged spikes as our only option.
I meant reduced spike spread just by itself. The actual dps or damage per spike can easily be tuned after to make sure lerk doesn't end up as some ranged killing monster but plays more like a harasser.
The main point behind reducing spread is that you can then keep a flap energy system as spike energy usage to damage becomes more tied to skill. e.g. If i ran out of energy i would feel like my aim was bad instead of feeling like i got cheated by unlucky spread. Lerk players now have a goal they can work towards instead of expending vast ammounts of energy spamming spike and hoping for hits. It becomes reliable supporting damage akin to a ranged spore cloud (only this one requires you to keep tracking the marine).
Basically, assuming both models did the same effective dps over extended periods, i would rather lerk spike have low spread and do say 5 damage instead of a high spread that does the 10 per spike as currently.
What I remembered yesterday in a match against some Exos was that the ns1 lerk spores were really "annoying" in a positive way and that it was an area denial weapon. In some matches there were spores everywhere so the rines had to wait for HAs to assault a hive. But even then the spores would keep the light marines away from the HAs and they had to weld/protect each other alone. I would love to see this tactic revived. All it takes now to kill 40 aliens in a row is 1 Exo threatening the hive and shooting at everything that moves (with its heavenly unlimited ammo rampage) and 1 JP welder with a shotgun that snipes away every enemy at the Exos feet for support/repairs. I would like to have a weapon that forces the light marine to retreat as mentioned before.
I know there are tons of tactics to defeat an Exo in theory, but in a real match it seems very difficult. The Onos is useless despite the fact that it costs a lot. The bilebomb gorge is a nice choice, but depending on what I have seen so far the now a days research is roughly: fast second hive, cara, leap, adrenaline, blink, maybe bilebomb... As I see it, the focus goes to skulks and then directly to fades. Spores or umbra are late till too late abilities concerning research order. Can't we just get the lerk back with spores on right click and bite on left click from the start? What was wrong with spikes for middle game research?
Having research options is nice, but as I see it right now, there is never enough time or res to get the 219 lerk to what it should be in the early game. Support for the skulks and a slow down unit for enemy movements. I hope Lerk and Onos will get back their old glory as long as the Exo stays the way it is now.
Long distance spores like in NS1 would be nice, but i doubt they will be seen in NS2 soon or at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1977812:date=Sep 15 2012, 07:40 AM:name=[AwE]Sentinel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([AwE]Sentinel @ Sep 15 2012, 07:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> What I remembered yesterday in a match against some Exos was that the ns1 lerk spores were really "annoying" in a positive way and that it was an area denial weapon. In some matches there were spores everywhere so the rines had to wait for HAs to assault a hive. But even then the spores would keep the light marines away from the HAs and they had to weld/protect each other alone. I would love to see this tactic revived. All it takes now to kill 40 aliens in a row is 1 Exo threatening the hive and shooting at everything that moves (with its heavenly unlimited ammo rampage) and 1 JP welder with a shotgun that snipes away every enemy at the Exos feet for support/repairs. I would like to have a weapon that forces the light marine to retreat as mentioned before.
I know there are tons of tactics to defeat an Exo in theory, but in a real match it seems very difficult. The Onos is useless despite the fact that it costs a lot. The bilebomb gorge is a nice choice, but depending on what I have seen so far the now a days research is roughly: fast second hive, cara, leap, adrenaline, blink, maybe bilebomb... As I see it, the focus goes to skulks and then directly to fades. Spores or umbra are late till too late abilities concerning research order. Can't we just get the lerk back with spores on right click and bite on left click from the start? What was wrong with spikes for middle game research?
Having research options is nice, but as I see it right now, there is never enough time or res to get the 219 lerk to what it should be in the early game. Support for the skulks and a slow down unit for enemy movements. I hope Lerk and Onos will get back their old glory as long as the Exo stays the way it is now.
Long distance spores like in NS1 would be nice, but i doubt they will be seen in NS2 soon or at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have been asking for ranged spores with the above reason since the release of the exo.
Currently marines hump the exo's and its impossible to do much damage to exo's as they simply have too many marines welding them
Ranged spores seem to tie in nicely if left as 2nd hive ability as they hit the field not long before we could start seeing exo's.
If I recall correctly spores dont hurt the exo...just the marines trying to weld so would be a GREAT SUPPORT weapon in taking down exo's.
maybe have spores by default again, and ranged spores as an upgrade? Or maybe lerks start with both gas and umbra since umbra is underused, neither being ranged, then there is an upgrade to make both of them ranged? idk, that could mean that you have 2 upgrades for lerk, spikes and ranged gas. I still think it's okay to have lerk gas being dropped instead of ranged, it works until shotguns with upgrades/jetpacks or exosuits. If exosuits were better than they are now the counter to them would be an attack with skulks and umbra.
<!--quoteo(post=1977951:date=Sep 15 2012, 12:54 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Sep 15 2012, 12:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977951"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->maybe have spores by default again, and ranged spores as an upgrade? Or maybe lerks start with both gas and umbra since umbra is underused, neither being ranged, then there is an upgrade to make both of them ranged? idk, that could mean that you have 2 upgrades for lerk, spikes and ranged gas. I still think it's okay to have lerk gas being dropped instead of ranged, it works until shotguns with upgrades/jetpacks or exosuits. If exosuits were better than they are now the counter to them would be an attack with skulks and umbra.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But with spores being hive 2 by the time its researched they have Shotguns, JP's or Exo's at which point strafing gas is suicidal a lot of the time.
I think the idea of having dropped by default and ranged as an upgrade is interesting way of approaching the issue.
Comments
1) momentum-based ranged spores
2) spore-spike spores
3) distance:damage ratio based spores
4) finite range spores
5) standard ranged spores
...and tada(ish)!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the first one! you can hack it together in LUA in like 5 minutes.
The lerk is far from from perfect, but I'd rather do a small amount of changes and see how they go before changing it more. Also only 2-3 people are even able to give any sort of feedback for the lerk, so it's hard to work out values. You're welcome to do that yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know the numbers of lerk players in testing is low but thank you guys for continuing to push (must feel a little outnumbered in the balance discussion with only 3 actually playing lerk).
The recent changes are starting to get the lerk to a usable point, well compared to a couple of builds ago it is playable.
But compared to where it needs to be there is still some work needed...which I am sure the lerk'ers would agree.
The lerk is useless once exo's are out.
Onos, Fade, skulk...heck even gorges do damage to exo's..lerks are too fragile and lack manouverability up close in battle to be any good against exo's.
Sitting back with Umbra does not really help if marines are doing the right thing and healing the exo's.
Giving the lerk a way to help break up the numbers of marines around an exo will provide it a nice little slot in the late game for aliens.
Would be good to be able to force marines to choose between healing exo and living, sure a lerk might get 1 pass now but thats not really enough to do any good. Really he needs to be able to stay sporing for 1-2 minutes of the battle. Dive bombing wont allow for this so some form of ranged spore needs to be considered.
I also think the flap mechanic costing energy blows..despite my best efforts I still end up flat footed in the middle of a battle at times...sure it may be my lack of awareness but it seems like a huge penalty for a fragile lifeform.
Anyway keep up the good the fight for the lerk your efforts are appreciated :D
Can someone explain to me why the lerk changed so much from NS1? I really don't get the new direction for the lerk, at all. I imagine copying and pasting the lerk from NS1 into NS2 and fail to understand why it wouldn't work. (if that ###### worked my job would be so much easier!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A bunch of whiners didn't like having to move out of spore clouds and find the lerk shooting them.
They also found that when lerks were fast in NS2, their bullets mysteriously couldn't hit them.
Can someone explain to me why the lerk changed so much from NS1? I really don't get the new direction for the lerk, at all. I imagine copying and pasting the lerk from NS1 into NS2 and fail to understand why it wouldn't work. (if that ###### worked my job would be so much easier!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerk has been very challenging to balance primarily because of performance. I doubt we've seen the last of the changes, either
Spores and umbra are in a good place but spikes and the general health/mobility balance feel... off.
Spores and umbra are in a good place but spikes and the general health/mobility balance feel... off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats because the lerk has been recently changed into more of a combat role than the harasser/support role so that it works better in higher levels of play.. sooo its going to go through more growing pains in the last hour before 1.0
I obviously agree with your suggestion regarding spores (as do a lot in this thread it seems) but i dont think we can convince UWE after these current changes were insisted on so strongly already... :-/
We'll just have to wait and see
Can't balance HP/AP until performance has plateaued a bit first. Makes it impossible to do so before then.
:/
Agreed, but those should be subtle tweaks anyway and are not whats limiting the lerk currently.
Flapping and energy I thinks broken, I also think the flight mechanics changed again slightly for lerk I swear the camera angle or collision boxes have changed.
The lerk is not meant to get into the heat of a battle late game, well that or there is a hell of a lot of buffing that he needs.
I dont think the lerk needs to be buffed heavily with armour and HP...more than happy for his role to be more standoff'ish.
Currently though he either sits back with spikes (default ability) or risks suicide by trying to spore.
Similar to a gorge...lerks never want to venture into the heat of the battle but sit back slightly as they dont have the ability to deal enough damage against what they will soak up. Lerks are ok up to mid game before exo's come out, once they come out lerks are in trouble.
W3 hurt lerks a lot..shotties are nightmare material...and exo's may as well be the living dead to a lerk.
Give him back ranged spores and umbra (simply combine these two back I reckon)...but at the very least give him ranged spores back.
Umbra is defensive...not offensive, so does nothing to motivate marines not to be in welding distance of exo's.
Regen, Adrenaline and spores are researched.
When I have those 3, I find it nearly impossible to die and I have probably died 3 times in the last 10 games I played as lerk with those upgrades.
I think the real problem is the use of lerks without the tri-force of upgrades. I never even consider going lerk without the trinity, I mean spikes don't really do that much damage, and vs marines with shotguns bite is asking to have your face blown off.
I would like it if lerks had spores early games that were weaker, but had the ability to upgrade spore damage once the second hive is down. The current 20/dmg spores are extremely powerful and will wipe out entire squads of marines if they are not careful. We cannot have that in 1 hive. But the current spike/bite lerk at 1 hive is borderline useless. And a lerk without adrenaline/regen is pretty much asking to die.
What do I suggest? A change in spikes, make them a support ability, make them not have to rely on constantly shooting marines for peanuts. How?
A few ideas.
Add a poison effect to spikes that only effects armor.
Add a short snare effect to spikes.
Bring spores to T1, naturally increase their damage per hive down (could be represented by gas colour) or add rank level upgrades to spores based off hives.
Make spikes do anything besides flat damage really.
I really think the lerk is perfect for 2+ hives, assuming you go craig/shift which everyone does since shade has been outclassed. But 1 hive lerks are pretty much useless to be honest.
1) A lerk should be better than a skulk (30 res vs 0)
2) A lerk should beat a vanilla marine more than often (30 res vs 0)
3) A lerk should have enough energy to perform usual actions (engage 1-2 marines) and fly away, with some margin for small mistakes.
4) A lerk shouldn't be one shotted by a shotgun (no hard counter).
I think 3) is mainly fine now I think. I'm not sure about the other ones. Can you get one shotted by a shotgun? Do spikes out-dps rifles ? How does lerk bite dps compare to the skulk ?
1) A lerk should be better than a skulk (30 res vs 0)
2) A lerk should beat a vanilla marine more than often (30 res vs 0)
3) A lerk should have enough energy to perform usual actions (engage 1-2 marines) and fly away, with some margin for small mistakes.
4) A lerk shouldn't be one shotted by a shotgun (no hard counter).
I think 3) is mainly fine now I think. I'm not sure about the other ones. Can you get one shotted by a shotgun? Do spikes out-dps rifles ? How does lerk bite dps compare to the skulk ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nicely summed up. If spike spread was reduced you would be tackling problems 1, 2, 3, 4 imo. Not necessarily solving them fully but it'd be a small step with a large direct impact unlike buffing hps/armours and causing ripple imbalances.
I'm still a little skeptical about spikelerking, especially with the NS2 res model. Basically what I see problematic:
<ul>1. The res model allows high lerk count without heavy commitment from the team.
2. The lerk's superior mobility allows it to pick the fights and firing angles it wants and as a result they rarely die unless the player makes a bigger mistake.</li></ul>
What I fear is that the marine team will spend the vast majority of time fighting aliens they really can't kill. It kind of happened in NS1 2.0 versions where the lerk had spikes and a flight model that wasn't really suited for biting. In NS2 res model and modern server size expectations we are talking about much bigger flock of lerks and much less commitment from the alien team though.
At this point some kind of spike oriented lerk might still be the best call, it's not like we've got too much time to figure out the major outlines.
My issue with Lerk right now is hardly anyone researches spores, by the time they do, exos/jps are rolling out and the usefulness drops significantly.
On to something I dislike; Umbra's duration. Because it lasts for such a short time, a lerks entire purpose is consumed by Umbra at the moment. It isn't really feasible to use Umbra AND spores, for example, though you would be able to use bite/spikes and spores without much problem. I think it would be highly beneficial if the travel speed of the Umbra cloud was increased by quite a lot, and its duration was increased by about 150%. The area of effect could then be reduced by about 25%. This way, the Lerk could choose to either to go full time Umbra, carpeting entire rooms in the stuff, while being unable to do anything else, or he could choose to use Umbra and more offensive abilities, though he would then need greater strategic placement of Umbra, and his teammates would need to actively fight from within cover.
<ul>1. The res model allows high lerk count without heavy commitment from the team.
2. The lerk's superior mobility allows it to pick the fights and firing angles it wants and as a result they rarely die unless the player makes a bigger mistake.</li></ul>
What I fear is that the marine team will spend the vast majority of time fighting aliens they really can't kill. It kind of happened in NS1 2.0 versions where the lerk had spikes and a flight model that wasn't really suited for biting. In NS2 res model and modern server size expectations we are talking about much bigger flock of lerks and much less commitment from the alien team though.
At this point some kind of spike oriented lerk might still be the best call, it's not like we've got too much time to figure out the major outlines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup.. This is one of my major concerns with turning the lerk into this combat role instead of harasser & support - the soft RPS mechanics are lost as his specialization is removed and thus so is ineffectiveness when mass lerking occurs. Now you will see teams of cheap killers.
Shotguns can come out before lerks, no?
The same can be said with spikes on hive two.
While switching spores back to hive one might "improve" lerks support role better, spores still becomes a death sentence by late game. And spikes do paltry damage by mid to late game (when they would have been researched on hive two), so spikes are not any better at keeping lerks relevant as the game progresses. By the time you have hive two, you should have near enough or close to enough resources to go fades anyway so there is absolutely no reason to dump 30 resources in a life form that's half as effective as skulks or fades in killing structures/marines.
The majority of the problems lerk has stems from its tech. It's horrible. Two close combat abilities and one semi-ranged ability that doesn't do anything effectively. Either spikes or bite needs to be cut and it's tech line improved.
Spikes and trail spores(that gasses a short distance in front of the lerk) or Bite and ranged spores on hive one.
Umbra on hive two to give lerk its much needed support ability to flesh into the support/harasser mid game.
Primal scream on hive three so that lerks can fall comfortably into a support role late game when spikes and spores can no longer effectively pressure marines and doing so usually means death.
I disagree. They were far from perfect. Just because people were happy sporing away doesn't mean lerks were effective or useful. Lerks still have a problem with mediocre abilities and a horrible techline.
So instead of trying to shoot for an "okay" early game lifeform, how about we brainstorm actually ways fix the lifeform so that it is usable throughout the entire course of a match.
I assume that it was a 6v6 match? Played by people in a clan or of having decent knowledge of each other?
So a group of skulks in a premade match couldn't have done the same thing as a full lerk rush using the same teamwork and communication?
<ul>1. The res model allows high lerk count without heavy commitment from the team.
2. The lerk's superior mobility allows it to pick the fights and firing angles it wants and as a result they rarely die unless the player makes a bigger mistake.</li></ul>
What I fear is that the marine team will spend the vast majority of time fighting aliens they really can't kill. It kind of happened in NS1 2.0 versions where the lerk had spikes and a flight model that wasn't really suited for biting. In NS2 res model and modern server size expectations we are talking about much bigger flock of lerks and much less commitment from the alien team though.
At this point some kind of spike oriented lerk might still be the best call, it's not like we've got too much time to figure out the major outlines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup this is a real problem agreed - i should have been more specific. The lerk needs an effective ranged attack of some sort (ranged spores or spikes) otherwise we get the shotgun hard counter problem. For whatever reason UWE have decided it best to have melee spores which leaves us with effective ranged spikes as our only option.
I meant reduced spike spread just by itself. The actual dps or damage per spike can easily be tuned after to make sure lerk doesn't end up as some ranged killing monster but plays more like a harasser.
The main point behind reducing spread is that you can then keep a flap energy system as spike energy usage to damage becomes more tied to skill. e.g. If i ran out of energy i would feel like my aim was bad instead of feeling like i got cheated by unlucky spread. Lerk players now have a goal they can work towards instead of expending vast ammounts of energy spamming spike and hoping for hits. It becomes reliable supporting damage akin to a ranged spore cloud (only this one requires you to keep tracking the marine).
Basically, assuming both models did the same effective dps over extended periods, i would rather lerk spike have low spread and do say 5 damage instead of a high spread that does the 10 per spike as currently.
I know there are tons of tactics to defeat an Exo in theory, but in a real match it seems very difficult. The Onos is useless despite the fact that it costs a lot. The bilebomb gorge is a nice choice, but depending on what I have seen so far the now a days research is roughly: fast second hive, cara, leap, adrenaline, blink, maybe bilebomb... As I see it, the focus goes to skulks and then directly to fades. Spores or umbra are late till too late abilities concerning research order. Can't we just get the lerk back with spores on right click and bite on left click from the start? What was wrong with spikes for middle game research?
Having research options is nice, but as I see it right now, there is never enough time or res to get the 219 lerk to what it should be in the early game. Support for the skulks and a slow down unit for enemy movements. I hope Lerk and Onos will get back their old glory as long as the Exo stays the way it is now.
Long distance spores like in NS1 would be nice, but i doubt they will be seen in NS2 soon or at all.
What I remembered yesterday in a match against some Exos was that the ns1 lerk spores were really "annoying" in a positive way and that it was an area denial weapon. In some matches there were spores everywhere so the rines had to wait for HAs to assault a hive. But even then the spores would keep the light marines away from the HAs and they had to weld/protect each other alone. I would love to see this tactic revived. All it takes now to kill 40 aliens in a row is 1 Exo threatening the hive and shooting at everything that moves (with its heavenly unlimited ammo rampage) and 1 JP welder with a shotgun that snipes away every enemy at the Exos feet for support/repairs. I would like to have a weapon that forces the light marine to retreat as mentioned before.
I know there are tons of tactics to defeat an Exo in theory, but in a real match it seems very difficult. The Onos is useless despite the fact that it costs a lot. The bilebomb gorge is a nice choice, but depending on what I have seen so far the now a days research is roughly: fast second hive, cara, leap, adrenaline, blink, maybe bilebomb... As I see it, the focus goes to skulks and then directly to fades. Spores or umbra are late till too late abilities concerning research order. Can't we just get the lerk back with spores on right click and bite on left click from the start? What was wrong with spikes for middle game research?
Having research options is nice, but as I see it right now, there is never enough time or res to get the 219 lerk to what it should be in the early game. Support for the skulks and a slow down unit for enemy movements. I hope Lerk and Onos will get back their old glory as long as the Exo stays the way it is now.
Long distance spores like in NS1 would be nice, but i doubt they will be seen in NS2 soon or at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have been asking for ranged spores with the above reason since the release of the exo.
Currently marines hump the exo's and its impossible to do much damage to exo's as they simply have too many marines welding them
Ranged spores seem to tie in nicely if left as 2nd hive ability as they hit the field not long before we could start seeing exo's.
If I recall correctly spores dont hurt the exo...just the marines trying to weld so would be a GREAT SUPPORT weapon in taking down exo's.
But with spores being hive 2 by the time its researched they have Shotguns, JP's or Exo's at which point strafing gas is suicidal a lot of the time.
I think the idea of having dropped by default and ranged as an upgrade is interesting way of approaching the issue.