4 Tech Point maps and late game discussion
Rubilac
Join Date: 2011-09-18 Member: 121881Members
Join Date: 2011-09-18 Member: 121881Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Discussion showcasing the shortcomings of 4 tech point maps late game</div>Apologies if this topic has already been discussed and resolved. If so, please point me to the thread and close this one.
Maps with 4 tech points inherently remove any chance of late game max tiered fighting, as the 5th tech point does not exist and either marine OR alien can get their tech up. Now being one tech point down affects marine far more than alien. Alien still gets blink/leap and 2/3 of their upgrades/enhancements. Marine on the other hand gets armour/weap 1, shotties, welders and pg. No JP/Exo's to handle blink fades.
I understand most of the 4 tech point maps(4TP) are community created and may or may not be the intended gameplay. The fact is that they are there. Fundamentally this adds a new gamestyle, which will tend towards the mid game. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Having maps which all tend to the late game will become tedious over time.
The real question is: With 4 tech points, is there a way to reach a balance?
Assume late game scenarios:
Case 1: 1 Base each - Early Game, not on topic
Case 2: 2 Bases each - Marines with dual minigun, jp, 3/3 and a full tech tree VERSUS aliens with 2/3 hives lacking an upgrade path. Aliens, imo, harshly disadvantaged.
Case 3: 1 Base marine VS 2 Base Alien, competing for 4TP - Aliens with blink/leap/stomp and 2 tech paths vs marines with 1/1, PG, shotgun etc.
Case 4: 1 Base marine VS 3 Base Alien - Not worth discussing, GG.
So you can argue in Case 2 that alien must not let marine get that 2nd comm. Valid argument, BUT, that removes the marine late game tech, and begins favouring alien again.
In Case 3, you can also argue that, don't let aliens get a 2nd hive. Again early game play, no late game full tech possibility.
I welcome any arguments or proposals to counter my cases. I am aware that the battle for the 2nd marine, or even 2nd hive, is a viable gamestyle, and may well be competitive, but in the bigger picture, the swing is too big from one side to another.
Arguments based on NS1 are also not all too valid as there was no 2 Comm. chair requirements for any upgrades, and the marines could get a full tech tree off one comm. chair.
To be clear. I am NOT denouncing the use of 4TP maps. I am merely stating the tech upgrade requirements scale hugely after the mid game. This can result in the game between to equal teams being fundamentally over going into the late game as one team will not be able to reach a full tech path.
Is this an intended gamestyle? Is it viable to compete on a map with no late game balanced potential?
I may be underestimating a 1 base marine team, or a 2 base alien team vs a 2 base marine team. If you honestly think 2 equally skilled sides, both with 2 bases, that the aliens will win 50% of the time, then I would like to see myself proved wrong.
Maps with 4 tech points inherently remove any chance of late game max tiered fighting, as the 5th tech point does not exist and either marine OR alien can get their tech up. Now being one tech point down affects marine far more than alien. Alien still gets blink/leap and 2/3 of their upgrades/enhancements. Marine on the other hand gets armour/weap 1, shotties, welders and pg. No JP/Exo's to handle blink fades.
I understand most of the 4 tech point maps(4TP) are community created and may or may not be the intended gameplay. The fact is that they are there. Fundamentally this adds a new gamestyle, which will tend towards the mid game. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Having maps which all tend to the late game will become tedious over time.
The real question is: With 4 tech points, is there a way to reach a balance?
Assume late game scenarios:
Case 1: 1 Base each - Early Game, not on topic
Case 2: 2 Bases each - Marines with dual minigun, jp, 3/3 and a full tech tree VERSUS aliens with 2/3 hives lacking an upgrade path. Aliens, imo, harshly disadvantaged.
Case 3: 1 Base marine VS 2 Base Alien, competing for 4TP - Aliens with blink/leap/stomp and 2 tech paths vs marines with 1/1, PG, shotgun etc.
Case 4: 1 Base marine VS 3 Base Alien - Not worth discussing, GG.
So you can argue in Case 2 that alien must not let marine get that 2nd comm. Valid argument, BUT, that removes the marine late game tech, and begins favouring alien again.
In Case 3, you can also argue that, don't let aliens get a 2nd hive. Again early game play, no late game full tech possibility.
I welcome any arguments or proposals to counter my cases. I am aware that the battle for the 2nd marine, or even 2nd hive, is a viable gamestyle, and may well be competitive, but in the bigger picture, the swing is too big from one side to another.
Arguments based on NS1 are also not all too valid as there was no 2 Comm. chair requirements for any upgrades, and the marines could get a full tech tree off one comm. chair.
To be clear. I am NOT denouncing the use of 4TP maps. I am merely stating the tech upgrade requirements scale hugely after the mid game. This can result in the game between to equal teams being fundamentally over going into the late game as one team will not be able to reach a full tech path.
Is this an intended gamestyle? Is it viable to compete on a map with no late game balanced potential?
I may be underestimating a 1 base marine team, or a 2 base alien team vs a 2 base marine team. If you honestly think 2 equally skilled sides, both with 2 bases, that the aliens will win 50% of the time, then I would like to see myself proved wrong.
Comments
Not IMO the case. Aliens may miss the Shift hive ability (not important at all) and Vortex, Xenocide, Umbra and Stomp. Most of those are gimmicky, plain bad, useful only against marines on foot (meaning only one CC) or rarely used. At 2 hives aliens get the actually important abilities: Bile bomb, Leap and Blink.
MY SOLUTION:
Make it so upgrades are all avaliable at one hive (WAIT)
BUT
Make them EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE Like (leap 70 and bilebomb 80)
then reduce the price a smidgeon when you get a second hive! Wabadamding, and it becomes tactical choices again!
The major difference in 4 tech nodes vs 5 tech nodes are: Tech node lockdowns are easier and more fatal to pull of, losing tech nodes and failing to reclaim them shortly after is more fatal and it is harder to keep your lead, as you can not get up a back-up hive/CC. Not having that back-up tech node means, that any successful attack by the opposing team may well be the beginning of the end, whereas in Summit you can more easily "trade hives" by waiting for opponent to commit to an attack and then rushing their other positions while sacrificing that hive/CC.
For me, 5TP's is easy mode, 4TP's is where the real gameplay lies. In NS1, marines almost always tried to lock down a hive, but they got no benefit, other than denying third tier tech to Aliens, now the need to lock a 2nd hive makes the battles on 4TP maps, much more important.
That is my opinion anyway. I really do feel we need more NS1 style 4TP maps.
The most enjoy-able matches are those, where both teams have equally teched and don't have an unfair advantage over the other team.
So in my opinion it should be this way:<ul><li>1 Marine Base, 1 Hive is equal in the early game. (While marines getting slowly better by teching up, aliens can only compete with one tech-branch and need a second hive when entering mid game.)</li><li>1 Marine Base, 2 Hives is equal in mid game. (While marines could tech further than aliens with one hive, they should be equal in mid game again when aliens have two hives.)</li><li>2 Marine Bases, 3 Hives is equal in end game. (End-tech for both sides. Only that marines get their end-tech with the 2nd CC and aliens get theirs with the 3rd hive.)</li></ul>
While trying to maintain a mostly equal and fair battle over the whole game, the skill of the players and coms decide who wins the game. Not a boring mechanic like: Get X and you will get a huge advantage over the enemy team.
So yes, I would like a standard of 5 Tech points per map. Otherwise late-game-tech will only be seen, when one team has already won the game.
I feel that Veil currently favours Marines, mainly due to early Phase Gates. Aliens usually manage to even the odds by rushing for a second Hive, which is very popular on all maps. But that may change, hopefully, as I dislike the lack of variety in viable strategies.
IF 4TP maps are not intended for late game play, and rather focus on early/mid game play that is also fine, but surely there will need to be some balance tweaks in the tech paths?
The more dynamic the map pool the better imo. I really like the fact that there are 4TP and 5TP maps, but we cannot have the same gametype expectation. Maybe my expectation is unrealistic and I may be missing some fundamental principal. Even if a 2base alien can win against a 2base marine team with a 1:1 ratio. Doesnt that automatically make a 3base alien better than a 2base marine?
The more dynamic the map pool the better imo. I really like the fact that there are 4TP and 5TP maps, but we cannot have the same gametype expectation. Maybe my expectation is unrealistic and I may be missing some fundamental principal. Even if a 2base alien can win against a 2base marine team with a 1:1 ratio. Doesnt that automatically make a 3base alien better than a 2base marine?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Currently the alien 3rd hive abilites are not all that advantageous, which is really an issue with the abilities themselves and possibly with the Shade upgrade path. We are not missing out on much else than Stomp and Umbra, which the aliens can well do without. Usually the only real effect of the 3rd hive is Feign Death, which by the way should be removed or strongly modified. In my opinion, rigth now the most important function of the 3rd alien hive is to secure the alien win by providing a backup that allows 2nd hive abilities to be used even when marines can rush down one hive.
The problem is, aliens primarily win by "underhanded" methods, which require the marines to make a mistake (losing power node, can't beacon heavies, ect). Because these require massive oversights from the marine team, I'm going to omit them, and say that the only valid way for aliens to win against marines is in glorious head to head combat. Unfortunately, 2 hive aliens will never beat 2 tech point marines head to head. Marines are simply too powerful. In fact even 3 hive aliens can and have lost comprehensively to 2 tech point marines.
Marine tech is simply too powerful at the moment I'm afraid. They completely stomp everything.
But it's true, it's too biased towards veil at the moment, veil sucks imho because the outcome is just too predictable. I'd love to see some servers with eclipse and see how eclipse works out in this build, but nobody is playing gathers any more nor do servers have the map :(
On a side note, I think it would be more intesesting if you can get jetpacks with 1 CC, it gives you a possibility to push without exos without being completly screwed if you end up in a 3v1 situation (though aliens are equally screwed with just one hive, but I think aliens have an easier time to get the 2nd hive going then marines have to get a 2nd cc)
The problem is, aliens primarily win by "underhanded" methods, which require the marines to make a mistake (losing power node, can't beacon heavies, ect). Because these require massive oversights from the marine team, I'm going to omit them, and say that the only valid way for aliens to win against marines is in glorious head to head combat. Unfortunately, 2 hive aliens will never beat 2 tech point marines head to head. Marines are simply too powerful. In fact even 3 hive aliens can and have lost comprehensively to 2 tech point marines.
Marine tech is simply too powerful at the moment I'm afraid. They completely stomp everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. It simply is not true on competitive level, and even on public, it fails to take into account most of the game. I strongly disagree.
The earliest time the second CC is necessary for marines is somewhere around 7-8 minutes, and even that usually means that the comm is skimping on necessary upgrades. Even going for a quick jetpack rush can usually be done no sooner than at the 15 min mark, and that is in no way a guaranteed success of any sort. Please keep in mind that fades come out roughly at the same time, and are usually effective at limiting marine map control and thus delay marine upgrades and equipment.
After evenly matched 20 minutes, both teams can have most upgrades out and then the marines often have an advantage on 2 CC vs 2 hive, as their endgame tech actually does work, where the alien tech is not up to the par.
You could maybe look up some of the recent casted matches and see just how OP the 2nd chair is?
<u><b>Case 1</b></u>
<b>GIVEN</b>
4 Tech point map AND
Equally skilled marine and alien teams (or something close to it) AND
Marine team on 2 bases with full tech tree dual miniguns, shotgun/grenade JP, 3/3 and welders AND
Alien team with full 2 hives worth of tech with onos(no stomp), fade(blink), gorge(bilebomb), lerk(spores) and skulk(leap)
<b>WHEN</b>
Marine and Alien teams engage in battle
<b>THEN</b>
How many times out of a hundred do Aliens win?
<b><u>Case 2</u></b>
<b>GIVEN</b>
5 Tech point map AND
Equally skilled marine and alien teams (or something close to it) AND
Marine team on 2 bases with full tech tree dual miniguns, shotgun/grenade JP, 3/3 and welders AND
Alien team with full 3 hives worth of tech with onos(stomp), fade(blink+vortex), gorge(bilebomb), lerk(spores+umbra) and skulk(leap+xeno)
<b>WHEN</b>
Marine and Alien teams engage in battle
<b>THEN</b>
How many times out of a hundred do Aliens win?
If your answer in the first case is close to 50:50, how can your answer be the same in the second case?
IF 4TP maps are not intended for late game play, and rather focus on early/mid game play that is also fine, but surely there will need to be some balance tweaks in the tech paths?
The more dynamic the map pool the better imo. I really like the fact that there are 4TP and 5TP maps, but we cannot have the same gametype expectation. Maybe my expectation is unrealistic and I may be missing some fundamental principal. Even if a 2base alien can win against a 2base marine team with a 1:1 ratio. Doesnt that automatically make a 3base alien better than a 2base marine?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would agree there still needs to be balance tweaks in the tech paths anyway, regardless of whether there becomes a standard of 4 or 5TPs.
Preference of 4TP or 5TP maps will always be down to the individual, because they produce a very different experience.
In my experience, 5TP maps leads to less confrontation, as the teams seek to tech before starting big pushes on the enemy. With 4TP maps, big team pushes are required much earlier, to prevent the other team teching. This leads, in my experience, to more intense combat, which for me personally is a good thing.
It all depends on how you think the game is supposed to be played. If you think everyone has the right to fully tech up and stand a chance in toe-to-toe battles, then you will prefer 5TP maps. If you think, as I do, that teams should earn the right to tech up by winning and holding the ground, then you will prefer the gameplay of 4TP maps.
I don't think there should be a standard figure. But it is pretty clear at the moment, that the 6TP map I started developing in 2010 has no place in the current game.
However, and this will make this whole argument moot considering how long it takes to make a map, if UWE add a 4th Hive type, as alluded to by Charlie in the latest Developer Q&A, then we will be discussing should there be 4TP, 5TP or 6TP maps. Again, this will then be about gameplay styles as to which you will prefer, and again, all will be valid, because there will be a gameplay type for everyone, just from the variations of maps available.
I also like the fact that a different number of TPs makes you think differently about your strategy as a commander, surely more variation is always better?
The issue isn't really about the number of tech points, it's more about making the tech tree more efficient and balanced, a standard number of TPs in a map, will just limit the gameplay experience, and at the end of the day, UWE want to provide as varied an experience as possible to the gamers.
That, however, is all my subjective opinion..
<u><b>Case 1</b></u>
<b><u>Case 2</u></b>
<b>WHEN</b>
Marine and Alien teams engage in battle
<b>THEN</b>
How many times out of a hundred do Aliens win?
If your answer in the first case is close to 50:50, how can your answer be the same in the second case?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright, I'll bite!
Cases do not describe for RTS, tres, pres or map control. I will assume tres and pres are somewhat plentiful and that map control is even.
Before reaching either situation (2-2 tech nodes, full upgrades), it is likely that the game has been going on for 25 minutes or more and that fades and earlier jetpackers haven't had a serious impact on the other teams tech nodes. Since the fades are the apex lifeform right now and since the fades have not turned the tide during 10-25 min, we can assume, that the marines are in a position where they have the upper hand at this point. It is now just a matter of getting arcs and or dual exos and not losing important bases.
Should the aliens have a third hive, they might try and trade a hive for a marine base. This I consider somewhat advantageous and a possible strategy, though looking at the cases, in both cases the aliens most likely have lost.
Case 1: Marines can make mistakes and lose, but will win roughly 75% of the games.
Case 2: Marines can make mistakes and lose, but aliens have an extra hive to sacrifice with allows for better counter-attacks, so the marines win 70% of the games.
...
Marine domination in these cases however do not mean that "2nd CC is OP" as some posters have said, as the cases describe only the endgame. Due to the asymmetry of the game, there is a rather long (15-20min) period in the game where marines do often have 2nd CC but are not yet in the end-game. Sure, the lack of alien end-game tech is a problem, but it is currently a problem separate from the 3rd tech point.
>implying stomp is not essential for an onos
>implying umbra is not considered extremely powerful
>implying vortex is not great for high level play
I think its unfair for aliens to be forced into 3 hives while marines only need 2. If they want to slow down tech explosion, then they should add long research (like adv armoury) and build trees to aliens.
Also everyone goes shift hive, then crag hive. No 3rd hive usually means no shade. Not a tragic loss, but losing the class abilities is.
100% agree with you on this. The variety between the two is great. I also really enjoy the 4TP maps. The intensity and urgency leads to awesome team aggression. 5TP allows for more passiveness and generally tends to a big clash in the late game.
<!--quoteo(post=1977594:date=Sep 14 2012, 08:26 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Sep 14 2012, 08:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977594"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The issue isn't really about the number of tech points, it's more about making the tech tree more efficient and balanced, a standard number of TPs in a map, will just limit the gameplay experience, and at the end of the day, UWE want to provide as varied an experience as possible to the gamers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is really what I am getting at! The number of tech points is the catalyst that sets off, what I can only describe as, weighted tech paths and requirements, for either team, but more so for marine.
I don't think getting rid of 4TP is in any way an answer. The difference in style that it allows for is important. However, there is certain tech requirements and weighting in the tech trees/path. But, again, this also can add certain timings to the strategy pool.
Case 2: Marines can make mistakes and lose, but aliens have an extra hive to sacrifice with allows for better counter-attacks, so the marines win 70% of the games.
...
Marine domination in these cases however do not mean that "2nd CC is OP" as some posters have said, as the cases describe only the endgame. Due to the asymmetry of the game, there is a rather long (15-20min) period in the game where marines do often have 2nd CC but are not yet in the end-game. Sure, the lack of alien end-game tech is a problem, but it is currently a problem separate from the 3rd tech point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do not think 2nd CC is OP, although if by virtue of a 2nd CC, Aliens are unable to catchup, the snowball effect is natively going to favour marines. Your answer here does lend itself towards my original idea that 4TP maps will be early/mid game maps as the late game.
MY SOLUTION:
Make it so upgrades are all avaliable at one hive (WAIT)
BUT
Make them EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE Like (leap 70 and bilebomb 80)
then reduce the price a smidgeon when you get a second hive! Wabadamding, and it becomes tactical choices again!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no
There seems to be a vague consensus in this thread that the high-level tech of both marines and aliens should only be accessible once 3TPs are held. As much as this does strike me as a sensible symmetry to have, I wonder if an asymmetry would be more appropriate. As an example, where aliens need to hold the majority of the TPs on a map to dominate, perhaps marines should need to hold the majority of the res nodes to dominate.
Great performance from both teams, and this just convinces me even more that all my future maps (at least until UWE add a 4th Alien Tech Tree) will be 4TP maps :)
EDIT----
I'm a Numpty, got the teams the wrong way round..
There seems to be a vague consensus in this thread that the high-level tech of both marines and aliens should only be accessible once 3TPs are held. As much as this does strike me as a sensible symmetry to have, I wonder if an asymmetry would be more appropriate. As an example, where aliens need to hold the majority of the TPs on a map to dominate, perhaps marines should need to hold the majority of the res nodes to dominate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. Because res nodes are not something that you need to hold forever. If you lose a tech point, you lose the tech. If you lose res nodes, then it does not matter as long as you've started the research.
We need symmetry on tech point control for tech. Either both sides need to require 2 for endgame tech, or require 3 for endgame.
So two options:
<ol type='1'><li>Make 3 hive lifeform research require only 2 mature hives instead. Slow down hive maturity, so second hive drop will give access to teir 2 upgrades and teir 3 in ~5 minutes. Or make hive maturity an upgrade so commander has some control over it coming sooner or later.</li><li>Make marine jetpack improvements and dual weapon exo's require 3 CCs.</li></ol>
I guess the 4TP maps promote and accommodate the awesome early/mid game and we don't really need the late game. Although the balance for 12vs12 on the 4TP late game will be snowball'ish, I assume this is not the intention of how 4TP's are meant to be played.
Was awesome watching the Wasabi Cup this weekend. Gave me a great look at how intense the game can be when teams adapt and react.