<!--quoteo(post=1962710:date=Aug 14 2012, 09:23 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 14 2012, 09:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait. This is the issue of what? That the aliens are constantly losing?
I don't see a real problem here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1962710:date=Aug 14 2012, 08:23 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 14 2012, 08:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait. This is the issue of what? That the aliens are constantly losing?
I don't see a real problem here.
Beside that, I would love to be able to put a tf2-teleporter-like hole as the gorge. But this has to be balanced again. Right now you only have observed, that it is asymmetric. But a problem?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because one side has the win percentage advantage does not mean we should not look for potential problems on the otherside of the fence.
I've said it before, but I think the fundamental problem here has to do with the force multiplier of marines in groups. I think most people agree that a skulk versus a marine is a fairly even fight. Sure, things like lighting and surroundings come into play, but I would think the win/loss from a skulk vs marine perspective is fairly close to 50/50. The difference (see: asymmetry) is that marines in groups are far more powerful than skulks in groups. One group of 3 skulks is essentially equal in power to three individual skulks, however a group of 3 marines is much more powerful than 3 individual marines.
That isn't really a problem, its just a way that the two teams differ. The way this was approached in NS1, was that a marine had a much smaller area of influence, which is defined by the area around his current location which he can get to in a certain amount of time. So, for example, if marine A needs assistance within the next 10 seconds, and marine B is 13 seconds away, they are outside of each others area of influence, and therefore they do not gain the force multiplier of being in a group. Aliens, on the other hand, could essentially go wherever they wanted, unhindered and very quickly, to support other locations.
That was the case in NS1. In NS2 however, marine A and marine B could be in different hive rooms and still be in each others area of influence. Marines are so quick that they can move to a specific location as rapidly and unhindered as aliens, but they receive a much higher force multiplier when they do so. Marines are so fast that it has gotten to the point where a good 70-80% of the marine team have overlapping areas of influence at any one time, even when spread all across the map.
The difference this makes is quite blatant. In NS1, marines would be directed, by their commander, to a desired location. This involved the marines departing, from main base, upon an adventure to the magical waypoint. This adventure could take a while, and could take multiple tries, but every marine that didn't go was a major detriment to the mission as a whole. Now what happens is the commander essentially says "take the map". And everyone goes everywhere, taking everything. Whenever the ###### hits the fan in a specific location, so many people have that location within their area of influence that it really doesn't matter what they are doing, they can drop it and defend the crap out of that location almost immediately.
<!--quoteo(post=1962710:date=Aug 14 2012, 06:23 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 14 2012, 06:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait. This is the issue of what? That the aliens are constantly losing?
I don't see a real problem here.
Beside that, I would love to be able to put a tf2-teleporter-like hole as the gorge. But this has to be balanced again. Right now you only have observed, that it is asymmetric. But a problem?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea. Give the gorge the ability to place 2/2 movement chambers to get from point A to point B. Perhaps at the cost of personal res? Also maybe code it to where if the gorge dies, the chambers immediately despawn. Would that be too symmetric to phase gates?
Perhaps bind the movement chamber connection to the cyst pathing as well so marines have another way of stopping the transport if it is too imbalanced?
<!--quoteo(post=1962764:date=Aug 14 2012, 04:42 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Aug 14 2012, 04:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962764"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One group of 3 skulks is essentially equal in power to three individual skulks, however a group of 3 marines is much more powerful than 3 individual marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is more of a pub problem than a competitive one... In a pub you will see 3v3 that are just a random series of bullets and bites but more than likely 1 skulk will hold back and effectively allow his teammates to enter combat first and then come in to pick off the lowered hp marines while keeping his health up.
Same thing happens with Marines, depending on the attack direction (from behind or not) there will be 1 marine in a more favorable position in the back shooting that probably gets the kill and doesn't take any damage.
In competitive you will see a lot more strategy and ambushes instead of random hallway battles.
In response to the main post on marine speed, I would say leave it how it is and try implementing a sprint limit (maybe 10secs) before the marine starts walking again in the next build to see how that changes things... But as is I like it since a Marine running makes a lot more noise, and can't hear footsteps as well as a walking marine could leaving him vulnerable to ambush.
<!--quoteo(post=1962764:date=Aug 14 2012, 08:42 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Aug 14 2012, 08:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962764"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One group of 3 skulks is essentially equal in power to three individual skulks, however a group of 3 marines is much more powerful than 3 individual marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is a bit of sense I can see being a problem. Separated marines that shouldn't be separated are still able to quickly get to each other.
<!--quoteo(post=1962772:date=Aug 14 2012, 08:55 AM:name=darkfiction)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (darkfiction @ Aug 14 2012, 08:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this is more of a pub problem than a competitive one... In a pub you will see 3v3 that are just a random series of bullets and bites but more than likely 1 skulk will hold back and effectively allow his teammates to enter combat first and then come in to pick off the lowered hp marines while keeping his health up.
Same thing happens with Marines, depending on the attack direction (from behind or not) there will be 1 marine in a more favorable position in the back shooting that probably gets the kill and doesn't take any damage.
In competitive you will see a lot more strategy and ambushes instead of random hallway battles.
In response to the main post on marine speed, I would say leave it how it is and try implementing a sprint limit (maybe 10secs) before the marine starts walking again in the next build to see how that changes things... But as is I like it since a Marine running makes a lot more noise, and can't hear footsteps as well as a walking marine could leaving him vulnerable to ambush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have mostly been a in pubs. I have played a few gathers, and have yet to have a scrim. That could give some biases. I even mostly play as alien. I think a longer delay before being able to sprint sounds reasonable. It would still allow marines to travel faster, but not cross half the map sprinting.
As flipper mentioned earlier, about running from oni, I usually run when I see an onos. I get back into a better position so I can stay alive and remain helpful in taking the onos down. There is no escape from fades, but onos are something to runaway from unless you have lv3 weapons.
Speed should be either slightly less than a skulk or there should be just a lower limit on how long you can sprint for. I mean sprinting by definition isn't even meant to last very long anyway. And you would think an alien that is built for speed would be able to run faster than a human anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1962755:date=Aug 14 2012, 05:23 PM:name=Industry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Industry @ Aug 14 2012, 05:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just because one side has the win percentage advantage does not mean we should not look for potential problems on the otherside of the fence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, don't get me wrong. If something isn't fun or could be better, I'm all for change. (See alien spawn system.) But the smaller maps and high marine speed is an intentional change. It goes with the "more action"-goal. And yes, it was another mechanic in NS1 than in NS2. I think imbalanxd has made a good post about the differences.
I also can understand the argument of getting more strategic game play in exchange for less action. But I think NS2 is just fine with this more action-oriented approach. But this is just me.
PS. I play both. Aliens and marines equally.
Edit: Oh and on a side note, I have to admit that the sprinting mechanic itself feels unpolished. You can sprint for what, 15 seconds? And need 2 seconds to recover? That just don't feels right.
<!--quoteo(post=1962772:date=Aug 14 2012, 05:55 PM:name=darkfiction)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (darkfiction @ Aug 14 2012, 05:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this is more of a pub problem than a competitive one... In a pub you will see 3v3 that are just a random series of bullets and bites but more than likely 1 skulk will hold back and effectively allow his teammates to enter combat first and then come in to pick off the lowered hp marines while keeping his health up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has more to do with the LMGs range and rate of fire, and how much damage can be placed down range by increasing number of marines. The detrimental alien effect can be seen when comparing what happens to 3 aliens who are gangraping a res tower, compared to three marines. A single marine can quite effectively kill 3 aliens who focus a single target, but the same scenario with marines offers an alien skulk essentially no advantage.
But ye, the range and rate of fire is the main force multiplier for marines. For the same reason, 3 LMG marines have a greater force multiplier than 3 shotgun marines.
In patch 218 if a marine dropped his lmg and pistol and sprinting he could outrun a skulk for a limited time. Celarity and leap fixes this. In patch 219 they can't outrun a skulk at all, that being said why should a marine be able to outrun a skulk. It's a distraction, makes them mad and will follow that marine half way across the map leaving the rest of the marines to advance with very little resitance.
Right now every alien is faster than a marine, oh wait gorge, oh wait belly slide.
Sprint was probably introduced to minimise the duration of the boring A-to-B journeys that a marine might have to take. The better approach though is to make those A-to-B journeys more interesting.
To be honest, those journeys are pretty interesting anyway when skulks are playing to ambush but NS1 made them even more interesting through small skill-based gains. I'm not saying reintroduce wallwalk or wigglewalk, but it was nice to be able to improve speed by a relatively small 5% for some creative movement from airmovement jumps. Trading off that kind of skill-based movement for careful advancing is a far more interesting implementation and choice than pressing +sprint.
Comments
I don't see a real problem here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Says the Marine. ;)
I don't see a real problem here.
Beside that, I would love to be able to put a tf2-teleporter-like hole as the gorge. But this has to be balanced again. Right now you only have observed, that it is asymmetric. But a problem?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because one side has the win percentage advantage does not mean we should not look for potential problems on the otherside of the fence.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=114195" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=114195</a>
That isn't really a problem, its just a way that the two teams differ. The way this was approached in NS1, was that a marine had a much smaller area of influence, which is defined by the area around his current location which he can get to in a certain amount of time. So, for example, if marine A needs assistance within the next 10 seconds, and marine B is 13 seconds away, they are outside of each others area of influence, and therefore they do not gain the force multiplier of being in a group. Aliens, on the other hand, could essentially go wherever they wanted, unhindered and very quickly, to support other locations.
That was the case in NS1. In NS2 however, marine A and marine B could be in different hive rooms and still be in each others area of influence. Marines are so quick that they can move to a specific location as rapidly and unhindered as aliens, but they receive a much higher force multiplier when they do so. Marines are so fast that it has gotten to the point where a good 70-80% of the marine team have overlapping areas of influence at any one time, even when spread all across the map.
The difference this makes is quite blatant. In NS1, marines would be directed, by their commander, to a desired location. This involved the marines departing, from main base, upon an adventure to the magical waypoint. This adventure could take a while, and could take multiple tries, but every marine that didn't go was a major detriment to the mission as a whole.
Now what happens is the commander essentially says "take the map". And everyone goes everywhere, taking everything. Whenever the ###### hits the fan in a specific location, so many people have that location within their area of influence that it really doesn't matter what they are doing, they can drop it and defend the crap out of that location almost immediately.
I don't see a real problem here.
Beside that, I would love to be able to put a tf2-teleporter-like hole as the gorge. But this has to be balanced again. Right now you only have observed, that it is asymmetric. But a problem?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea. Give the gorge the ability to place 2/2 movement chambers to get from point A to point B. Perhaps at the cost of personal res? Also maybe code it to where if the gorge dies, the chambers immediately despawn. Would that be too symmetric to phase gates?
Perhaps bind the movement chamber connection to the cyst pathing as well so marines have another way of stopping the transport if it is too imbalanced?
I think this is more of a pub problem than a competitive one... In a pub you will see 3v3 that are just a random series of bullets and bites but more than likely 1 skulk will hold back and effectively allow his teammates to enter combat first and then come in to pick off the lowered hp marines while keeping his health up.
Same thing happens with Marines, depending on the attack direction (from behind or not) there will be 1 marine in a more favorable position in the back shooting that probably gets the kill and doesn't take any damage.
In competitive you will see a lot more strategy and ambushes instead of random hallway battles.
In response to the main post on marine speed, I would say leave it how it is and try implementing a sprint limit (maybe 10secs) before the marine starts walking again in the next build to see how that changes things... But as is I like it since a Marine running makes a lot more noise, and can't hear footsteps as well as a walking marine could leaving him vulnerable to ambush.
That is a bit of sense I can see being a problem. Separated marines that shouldn't be separated are still able to quickly get to each other.
<!--quoteo(post=1962772:date=Aug 14 2012, 08:55 AM:name=darkfiction)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (darkfiction @ Aug 14 2012, 08:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this is more of a pub problem than a competitive one... In a pub you will see 3v3 that are just a random series of bullets and bites but more than likely 1 skulk will hold back and effectively allow his teammates to enter combat first and then come in to pick off the lowered hp marines while keeping his health up.
Same thing happens with Marines, depending on the attack direction (from behind or not) there will be 1 marine in a more favorable position in the back shooting that probably gets the kill and doesn't take any damage.
In competitive you will see a lot more strategy and ambushes instead of random hallway battles.
In response to the main post on marine speed, I would say leave it how it is and try implementing a sprint limit (maybe 10secs) before the marine starts walking again in the next build to see how that changes things... But as is I like it since a Marine running makes a lot more noise, and can't hear footsteps as well as a walking marine could leaving him vulnerable to ambush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have mostly been a in pubs. I have played a few gathers, and have yet to have a scrim. That could give some biases. I even mostly play as alien. I think a longer delay before being able to sprint sounds reasonable. It would still allow marines to travel faster, but not cross half the map sprinting.
As flipper mentioned earlier, about running from oni, I usually run when I see an onos. I get back into a better position so I can stay alive and remain helpful in taking the onos down. There is no escape from fades, but onos are something to runaway from unless you have lv3 weapons.
Oh, don't get me wrong. If something isn't fun or could be better, I'm all for change. (See alien spawn system.) But the smaller maps and high marine speed is an intentional change. It goes with the "more action"-goal. And yes, it was another mechanic in NS1 than in NS2. I think imbalanxd has made a good post about the differences.
I also can understand the argument of getting more strategic game play in exchange for less action. But I think NS2 is just fine with this more action-oriented approach.
But this is just me.
PS. I play both. Aliens and marines equally.
Edit: Oh and on a side note, I have to admit that the sprinting mechanic itself feels unpolished. You can sprint for what, 15 seconds? And need 2 seconds to recover? That just don't feels right.
It has more to do with the LMGs range and rate of fire, and how much damage can be placed down range by increasing number of marines. The detrimental alien effect can be seen when comparing what happens to 3 aliens who are gangraping a res tower, compared to three marines. A single marine can quite effectively kill 3 aliens who focus a single target, but the same scenario with marines offers an alien skulk essentially no advantage.
But ye, the range and rate of fire is the main force multiplier for marines. For the same reason, 3 LMG marines have a greater force multiplier than 3 shotgun marines.
Right now every alien is faster than a marine, oh wait gorge, oh wait belly slide.
To be honest, those journeys are pretty interesting anyway when skulks are playing to ambush but NS1 made them even more interesting through small skill-based gains. I'm not saying reintroduce wallwalk or wigglewalk, but it was nice to be able to improve speed by a relatively small 5% for some creative movement from airmovement jumps. Trading off that kind of skill-based movement for careful advancing is a far more interesting implementation and choice than pressing +sprint.