just remove trail spores, completely useless once fps is improved. And if you seriously want it back, simply do this: holding right click spreads the spores behind you but clicking it, it becomes range spores. Bring back ns1 lerk would solve all of the issues, but if you're forcing trail spores to stay, the example i made might actually work for both parties.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Ranged spores didnt work during the year they were tested.
You didnt need full tech trees or performance to experience the cheese of hiding in a dark corner and sporing from a distance, never to be seen. They tweaked it for an entire year and the fundamental issue existed in that it was frustrating to not be able to fight something that can hurt/kill you. I remember staying lerk all game without even trying.
That doesnt mean that crop dusting spores dont need work, however. I'd love to see the spores shoot out in front of you for some distance, protecting your entrance into rooms and your underbelly/visibility.
Also: tier1 spikes and bite and spores. tier 2: umbra, tier 3: primal scream.
I'd like the useless spikes to be taken out of the game and replaced with some sort of ability that gives extra utility. I've done way more damage with lerk bite in my lifetime than I've ever done with spikes, unless it's a building. Lerks, however, shouldn't be attacking buildings anyways, they should be harassing marines. Perhaps an early game primal scream? Or maybe yet another type of cloud to make the lerk the ultimate supporter? Maybe umbra instead of spikes, then spores, then primal scream, almost like the NS1 lerk heh.
Spikes are just really useless. At least spore is finally useful after the buff.
<!--quoteo(post=1978309:date=Sep 16 2012, 10:07 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 16 2012, 10:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ranged spores didnt work during the year they were tested.
You didnt need full tech trees or performance to experience the cheese of hiding in a dark corner and sporing from a distance, never to be seen. They tweaked it for an entire year and the fundamental issue existed in that it was frustrating to not be able to fight something that can hurt/kill you. I remember staying lerk all game without even trying.
That doesnt mean that crop dusting spores dont need work, however. I'd love to see the spores shoot out in front of you for some distance, protecting your entrance into rooms and your underbelly/visibility.
Also: tier1 spikes and bite and spores. tier 2: umbra, tier 3: primal scream.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> To say ranged spores didn't work in the past is ignoring some major balance issues that where around at the time.
For example Exo's did not exist so marines would never be immune to the effects as they are when in an exo. Now we have exo's they dont suffer from teh Spores so its less powerful. It comes out after 2nd hive...after leap and most likely blink too...so by the time its out should be 7+ min in and marines could have exo's. We also now have tanks with miniguns for the marines to turtle around as they move from hive to hive. Aliens do not have a decent way besides suicide runs to try to break things up, the biggest issue is the marines welding. Lerks cant get close enough to an exo to drop spores....so there is nothing that discourages marines from turtling exo's with welders.
I know we all like exo's...but aliens need a counter to it...besides wasting sh1tloads of res and sacrificing lifeforms (often futile). Marines have flamers to sap gorges of energy and healing...they have GL's too. Aliens have nothing to force marines from turtling the exo's with welders (and dont say their lifeforms as thats like saying marines should take down onos with lmg only..sure is do-able but bloody hard)
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1978328:date=Sep 15 2012, 06:30 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Sep 15 2012, 06:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978328"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To say ranged spores didn't work in the past is ignoring some major balance issues that where around at the time.
Now we have exo's they dont suffer from teh Spores so its less powerful. It comes out after 2nd hive...after leap and most likely blink too...so by the time its out should be 7+ min in and marines could have exo's. We also now have tanks with miniguns for the marines to turtle around as they move from hive to hive. Aliens do not have a decent way besides suicide runs to try to break things up, the biggest issue is the marines welding. Lerks cant get close enough to an exo to drop spores....so there is nothing that discourages marines from turtling exo's with welders.
I know we all like exo's...but aliens need a counter to it...besides wasting sh1tloads of res and sacrificing lifeforms (often futile). Marines have flamers to sap gorges of energy and healing...they have GL's too. Aliens have nothing to force marines from turtling the exo's with welders (and dont say their lifeforms as thats like saying marines should take down onos with lmg only..sure is do-able but bloody hard)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <i>"For example Exo's did not exist so marines would never be immune to the effects as they are when in an exo."</i>
This is isolated from the reason why i said it didnt work. So the inclusion of exos during <i>late game</i> - when lerks aren't that useful or typically purchased anyways - have little to do with the issue : the interaction or lack thereof between non exo marines and the ranged spores.
Counter to Exo is being worked on.. (no nothing new, just tweaking variables) Flamethrowers doesn't "sap" your energy like they used to, they prevent the regeneration of your energy. Aliens have BB, umbra, enzymes , stomp (for those welders), vortex, and soon hopefully a better xenocide. There's plenty of game enders that work if done properly.. and to force the lerk back into ranged spores not only doesn't address the reason why they didn't work in the first place but doesn't solve anything here that you think needs addressing either. (just fly high and spore fast when you have support/distractions below? Duck and weave, buddy.)
<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro--> I simply don't agree with your year of testing point, the Exo point above doesn't even come into it. At the time, hitreg was god awful, the servers were barely stable with the load at the time, and everyone's framerate was so poor. Of course Lerk spores for that "year of testing" was impossible to fight against and frustrating generally, you could barely shoot them and having any sort of splash damage was going to be infinitely easier. Lerks would just spam it everywhere while randomly moving around, generally assured with the terrible performance at the time they weren't going to get killed. This wouldn't work nearly as well now that things are far more stable and many have "playable" frame rates now. This and many variables kinda make most of the testing at the time, (at least balance-wise) pretty iffy.
Someone at the very least needs to bring in ranged spores again in some way, be it a mod or a single build somewhere down the line to actually give it some real testing.
Edit: a few more thoughts: I love the look of trail spores but still realize generally that swooping in with a melee dot is mostly going to just get you face blasted a fair bit by anyone with a decent rig and a central nervous system. The payoff is just too low for the risk if it's a proper support weapon with a relatively low DOT and making it too useful damage-wise kills it's point as a support weapon.
I really don't personally see it working out in an environment of ideal frame rate across the board without turning it into an plain offensive ability instead of a support as it is. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The problem with crop dusting spores is that they require the lerk to get too close... they get focus fired or shotguned easily.
The problem with NS1 ranged spores is that a lerk can easily stay at maximum distance and spore away.
I think we need something in between. Something like a bile bomb, except it drops more and when it hits it sends out a gas cloud. Changing the drop of the projectile should help tweak it. The idea is that the lerk needs to get reasonably close to spore, but not so close that marines can easily kill him.
<!--quoteo(post=1978345:date=Sep 15 2012, 08:28 PM:name=Sling_Blade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sling_Blade @ Sep 15 2012, 08:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978345"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far as spores go, here is my suggestion:
The problem with crop dusting spores is that they require the lerk to get too close... they get focus fired or shotguned easily.
The problem with NS1 ranged spores is that a lerk can easily stay at maximum distance and spore away.
I think we need something in between. Something like a bile bomb, except it drops more and when it hits it sends out a gas cloud. Changing the drop of the projectile should help tweak it. The idea is that the lerk needs to get reasonably close to spore, but not so close that marines can easily kill him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->Hmm, not too bad an idea going that direction, actually, returning it's bombing runs. It'd keep better to the design direction they wanted for the swooping lerk too. Anything would be a better delivery method than crop dusting at this point though.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1978339:date=Sep 16 2012, 01:38 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 16 2012, 01:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978339"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>"For example Exo's did not exist so marines would never be immune to the effects as they are when in an exo."</i>
This is isolated from the reason why i said it didnt work. So the inclusion of exos during <i>late game</i> - when lerks aren't that useful or typically purchased anyways - have little to do with the issue : the interaction or lack thereof between non exo marines and the ranged spores.
Counter to Exo is being worked on.. (no nothing new, just tweaking variables)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You mean like the 2x damage bile will do to exo's? Does nothing to increase late game viability of lerk...or a real way for aliens to deal with welding marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1978339:date=Sep 16 2012, 01:38 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 16 2012, 01:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978339"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Flamethrowers doesn't "sap" your energy like they used to, they prevent the regeneration of your energy. Aliens have BB, umbra, enzymes , stomp (for those welders), vortex, and soon hopefully a better xenocide. There's plenty of game enders that work if done properly.. and to force the lerk back into ranged spores not only doesn't address the reason why they didn't work in the first place but doesn't solve anything here that you think needs addressing either. (just fly high and spore fast when you have support/distractions below? Duck and weave, buddy.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you try healing an onos when you can regen energy and he is being hit by 2-3 marines or 1 exo...flamers do a graet job at rendering any healing useless. Have you tried to avoid 3 exos as lerk plus 3-4 marines? you may make 1 pass but 2 is extremely unlikely.
You say there are plenty of alien game enders...well then why do most alien victories come from marines recycling? Obviously they dont agree that aliens have decent game enders and as such dont want to waste 10-15 minutes as aliens try to push into teh last tech point against W3 A3 marines. Spores do damage to the marines none of the suggestions you put forward do anything but stop them engaging for a short period (with exception of enzyme).
I wont disagree that in earlier builds ranged spores where a bit of an issue but there has been a lot of discussion since spores became trailing creating alternatives that are not as ranged but dont require lerks to get within suicide range. The fact we see 10 res gorges as being more valuable than 30 Res lerks late game shows there is an issue. Heck even 0 Res skulks are better value late game. Xenocide does not really help your side as you die...have random hive spawning...and possibly ending up the other side of the map to the conflict. I dont think we need spores to be any greater than what spikes are (perhaps drop to 40) but if we want to see lerks played late game they need an attack that is not suicide.
I guess if we dont mind that lerks are not used at all late game...and sparily midgame then lets leave it as is...or better yet just remove the lerk.
<!--quoteo(post=1978345:date=Sep 15 2012, 11:28 PM:name=Sling_Blade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sling_Blade @ Sep 15 2012, 11:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978345"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far as spores go, here is my suggestion:
The problem with crop dusting spores is that they require the lerk to get too close... they get focus fired or shotguned easily.
The problem with NS1 ranged spores is that a lerk can easily stay at maximum distance and spore away.
I think we need something in between. Something like a bile bomb, except it drops more and when it hits it sends out a gas cloud. Changing the drop of the projectile should help tweak it. The idea is that the lerk needs to get reasonably close to spore, but not so close that marines can easily kill him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hey look it's my exact idea from like 8 months ago!
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1978365:date=Sep 15 2012, 09:46 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Sep 15 2012, 09:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978365"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you tried to avoid 3 exos as lerk plus 3-4 marines? you may make 1 pass but 2 is extremely unlikely. I dont think we need spores to be any greater than what spikes are (perhaps drop to 40) but if we want to see lerks played late game they need an attack that is not suicide.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> See i think this is the issue right here ^ People want to act like a skulk or a fade or an onos when they lerk. That's not the role of the lerk! He is a harasser and supporter. (recent builds have made him more into combat, this is true, but if you ask me it was done wrong and won't work well like this)
So players who actually try sporing a room of 3 exos and 4 marines are simply making a bad call.. that's asinine. You wouldnt try to run through that crowd as the other support unit: the gorge, <i>would you?</i> Your job as the lerk is to coordinate your attacks with your teamates or simply follow them around. You are not a killer by design. He can be worth the 30 pres (With spores) - if you play him correctly - not as a killer but as area denial, or picking at marines and keeping them busy, or wasting ammo, or causing chaos etc etc.
And yea i think there are great ideas for spores. I'd personally like to see them take on momentum so that you can swoop into the entrance of a room, and spray while pulling a 180, throwing your gas into those welders without exposure. That will take skill at least, and include much more risk than playing peek-a-boo around a corner 50 meters away which is something that no amount of framerate can compete against.
But this wont solve your problem, still.. even getting some gas into that crowd of welders safely isn't going to be an "ender" like you want. The means to end games as aliens already exist, you just have to have teamwork and coordinate. Any gander at competitive matches will demonstrate this, clearly. They use BB, Enzymes, umbra if they have it, fades to lock down IPs.. etc etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1978530:date=Sep 16 2012, 07:14 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 16 2012, 07:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978530"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->See i think this is the issue right here ^ People want to act like a skulk or a fade or an onos when they lerk. That's not the role of the lerk! He is a harasser and supporter. (recent builds have made him more into combat, this is true, but if you ask me it was done wrong and won't work well like this)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a reoccurring problem with aliens in NS2 though. The alien lifeforms are constantly forced into encounters which they have no chance of winning. Yes, the Lerk has absolutely no chance of surviving a pass against 3 exos and 4 marines, but doing anything other than trying to make that pass renders the Lerk completely ineffective and basically ignorable.
Its power of "harassment" is an annoyance at the most, and non existent at the least.
<!--quoteo(post=1978536:date=Sep 16 2012, 06:23 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 16 2012, 06:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978536"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, the Lerk has absolutely no chance of surviving a pass against 3 exos and 4 marines, but doing anything other than trying to make that pass renders the Lerk completely ineffective and basically ignorable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Can agree here.
Also, more generally, it's a mistake to regard the ranged spore trial has conclusive given the abysmal performance at the time. If you're going down that route, the 10-year trial for ranged spores from NS1 would probably be more convincing.
It's also a mistake to ignore the variety of ranged solutions that people have proposed. The only (broken performance) testing that was done was for the NS1 spores but there has been no indication that momentum spores or any other kind of solution has ever been considered, let alone tested.
<!--quoteo(post=1978537:date=Sep 16 2012, 01:28 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Sep 16 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but there has been no indication that momentum spores or any other kind of solution has ever been considered, let alone tested.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For what it's worth, I hacked together momentum-based spores in like half an hour, in my first time looking at the ns2 game code
I dont mean to play devils advocate but spores are actually fine the way they are. After the damage buff they're quite viable. Everyone is saying that flying into a group of exos and marines is suicide as lerk but the other day I had a train of exos and welding marines approaching the crossroads hive from crevice and when they were all bunched up in the hallway about to start blasting the hive I swooped in there and gassed up the place. The marines stupidly just kept welding the exos while they died and I got four kills in just one swoop from spores without dying.
The inherent issue with lerks I think is spikes being useless. I almost never use them. Having to hover to line up spike fire just makes you vulnerable if attacking a marine. Their damage on structures at range due to spread is extremely low and therefore not worth your time.
Lerks need another ability instead of spikes. Perhaps another damage over time based ability to really make the lerk a DoT user?
Maybe make spikes refresh the DoT on bite? Or enhance it? Like the bite injects poison and the spikes are coated with a catalyst for that poison.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
I.E... mind linking me? I'd love to give it a go. Thanks
@Imbalanxd: playing a role outside of your given role like a fade swiping a structure or a gorge taking on 2 marines, has its inherent risks and should be avoided, yet not impossible.. also skill should close that gap too.. so like Chicken of war says above, he was able to skillfully pull it off (or the marines were just dumb, same thing) so its not always impossible.. but it should definitely be discouraged or difficult. Because fades that destroy structures ruins the soft RPS mechanics /trade-offs.
The lerk is highly useful for slowing marines down. (with spores) Through area denial, or picking at marines and keeping them busy, or wasting ammo, or causing chaos, or being a force multiplier for your teammates. etc etc.
Your response alone demonstrates my original point that people arent playing it correctly, and maybe that's a design issue that needs to be addressed. (i say a single descriptor in one word above the lifeform, i.e. "Surgical Striker" "Meat shield" "Fragile Harasser")
But the bottom line is you are not forced to play outside your role. You can, however, coordinate with your team and use your lifeform how its designed to, often to much greater effect.
But obviously i'm not saying the lerk is fine, just see my past pages of posts, and changes do need to be made. Just not changes which remove proper role usage. (hence why the lerk is doing so poorly right now)
<!--quoteo(post=1978624:date=Sep 16 2012, 10:34 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 16 2012, 10:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Imbalanxd: playing a role outside of your given role like a fade swiping a structure or a gorge taking on 2 marines, has its inherent risks and should be avoided, yet not impossible.. also skill should close that gap too.. so like Chicken of war says above, he was able to skillfully pull it off (or the marines were just dumb, same thing) so its not always impossible.. but it should definitely be discouraged or difficult. Because fades that destroy structures ruins the soft RPS mechanics /trade-offs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skill has no place in an argument of balance. If someone undertakes an action which they should not emerge victorious from, then regardless of the outcome, they are not victorious. If the marines he is flying past are just bad, then what relevance does that have to this discussion? If the Lerk is forced to perform action X, and more often than not fails to do X, then something is wrong. Everything else is irrelevant.
Reconciling melee spores - an ability that relies on sustained usage to be broadly useful - with a fragile lifeform that musn't die is bound to be stupidly difficult. If you want it to harass, don't make it facepalm into marines. If you want it to use spores more than once an encounter, don't make it facepalm into marines. If you want it be viable against people with aim, don't make it facepalm into marines.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@Tweadle: i agree.
@imbalanxd: "If the Lerk is forced to perform action X, and more often than not fails to do X, then something is wrong." He is not failing to do X.. he is failing to do Y, which was your argument last post, doing something he shouldnt be, and people not understanding his role and purpose.
And skill definitely has an argument in balance, why else do you think competitive matches show what is working and what is not? It also has a lot to do with game design and soft mechanics vs hard counters. If a gorge kills 2 marines by himself he IS victorious no matter what you think? idk what point you were trying to prove there, sorry
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->or a gorge taking on 2 marines<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Combat engineers aren't supposed to take on players? Oh, I guess that explains why the gorge is so dull to play, he isn't actually a combat engineer, AT ALL. Instead he's the same as in NS 1, minus 75% of the tasks that made him interesting to play (hive, chamber drops, team coordination)
The lerk is a different thing entirely, but it suffices to state that I rarely ever see anyone play it any more, with reason. It needs some serious addressing. Spores simply aren't worth the investment over things like leap and blink at the moment, and the lerk with just spikes and bite hardly causes more 'confusion' or 'problems' for the marines than a skulk does. The spikes could easily receive a buff, together with the bite and the fragile platform they're simply not worth the 30 p.res.
<!--quoteo(post=1978624:date=Sep 16 2012, 04:34 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 16 2012, 04:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I.E... mind linking me? I'd love to give it a go. Thanks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm looking it over and the current lerk code is different enough that it's not gonna drop in the same way. It was basically borrowing from how spores used to fall to the ground. You make something that grabs the player's velocity in CreateSporeCloud(), and then increment the cloud's position off that with each update step.
I'm sure there's a better way to do it now, but that much was really easy. I think when I left off, I needed to make it so clouds don't fly through walls in the xz plane (some kind of tracing stuff?)
<!--quoteo(post=1978624:date=Sep 16 2012, 04:34 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 16 2012, 04:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->he was able to skillfully pull it off (or the marines were just dumb, same thing)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorges and lerks are pretty combat like, clogs and hydras + spit and heal for the first (off the bat to) and spores plus like ironhorse said, chaos, for the latter ... apart from not getting kills so often, what is so wrong with them?
In a game with close starts, a single gorge can lure half a pub team of marines into wasting thier game attacking a clog wall just outside of the hive, if you don't get kills as lerk, wait untill a coordinated push on a marine spawn point and then fly around gassing, especially fun for the final/win assault, soooo much gurgling.
<!--quoteo(post=1978530:date=Sep 17 2012, 04:14 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 17 2012, 04:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978530"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->See i think this is the issue right here ^ People want to act like a skulk or a fade or an onos when they lerk. That's not the role of the lerk! He is a harasser and supporter. (recent builds have made him more into combat, this is true, but if you ask me it was done wrong and won't work well like this)
So players who actually try sporing a room of 3 exos and 4 marines are simply making a bad call.. that's asinine. You wouldnt try to run through that crowd as the other support unit: the gorge, <i>would you?</i> Your job as the lerk is to coordinate your attacks with your teamates or simply follow them around. You are not a killer by design. He can be worth the 30 pres (With spores) - if you play him correctly - not as a killer but as area denial, or picking at marines and keeping them busy, or wasting ammo, or causing chaos etc etc.
And yea i think there are great ideas for spores. I'd personally like to see them take on momentum so that you can swoop into the entrance of a room, and spray while pulling a 180, throwing your gas into those welders without exposure. That will take skill at least, and include much more risk than playing peek-a-boo around a corner 50 meters away which is something that no amount of framerate can compete against.
But this wont solve your problem, still.. even getting some gas into that crowd of welders safely isn't going to be an "ender" like you want. The means to end games as aliens already exist, you just have to have teamwork and coordinate. Any gander at competitive matches will demonstrate this, clearly. They use BB, Enzymes, umbra if they have it, fades to lock down IPs.. etc etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So after investing 30 res...best I can do as a lerk is sit in the room next to everyone and watch? flying past, as you admitted is not wise, most marines groups take out a lerk ahead of a skulk..even so I dont like being a 30 decoy.
I am not saying gas need to be an "ender" in itself but that the lerk should be able to contribute to breaking that last stronghold...currently its rare to see a lerk late game as its a waste of 30 res more often than not.
Sure by not trying to engage and harras the marines whilst my teams re-spawning/trasiting back to battle I increase my lifeexpectancy...but the marines can also heal and push easier. The limited time of a battle and the benefit spores offer is too limited.
Whether they are fully ranged, partial range or a variant of these I dont care but trailing is just stupid for hive 2 ability.
<!--quoteo(post=1978648:date=Sep 16 2012, 11:09 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 16 2012, 11:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@imbalanxd: "If the Lerk is forced to perform action X, and more often than not fails to do X, then something is wrong." He is not failing to do X.. he is failing to do Y, which was your argument last post, doing something he shouldnt be, and people not understanding his role and purpose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1978850:date=Sep 16 2012, 10:01 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Sep 16 2012, 10:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->flying past, as you admitted is not wise, most marines groups take out a lerk ahead of a skulk..even so I dont like being a 30 decoy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I see most marines dealing with skulks if i'm lerking above with spores, moving fast. But i agree about the decoy part. <!--quoteo(post=1978850:date=Sep 16 2012, 10:01 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Sep 16 2012, 10:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am not saying gas need to be an "ender" in itself but that the lerk should be able to contribute to breaking that last stronghold...currently its rare to see a lerk late game as its a waste of 30 res more often than not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> umbra is very useful. But i think i know why he doesnt work well late game: fragile lifeform gets more fragile when up against W3. While i think he needs different set of weapons/tools at different times, i dont believe that would help his life late game so much beyond obscuration. <!--quoteo(post=1978850:date=Sep 16 2012, 10:01 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Sep 16 2012, 10:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whether they are fully ranged, partial range or a variant of these I dont care but trailing is just stupid for hive 2 ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Aha so we agree, make them hive 1 and they're now worth something? Cool beans?
Comments
bite
range spores
umbra
just remove trail spores, completely useless once fps is improved. And if you seriously want it back, simply do this: holding right click spreads the spores behind you but clicking it, it becomes range spores. Bring back ns1 lerk would solve all of the issues, but if you're forcing trail spores to stay, the example i made might actually work for both parties.
You didnt need full tech trees or performance to experience the cheese of hiding in a dark corner and sporing from a distance, never to be seen. They tweaked it for an entire year and the fundamental issue existed in that it was frustrating to not be able to fight something that can hurt/kill you. I remember staying lerk all game without even trying.
That doesnt mean that crop dusting spores dont need work, however.
I'd love to see the spores shoot out in front of you for some distance, protecting your entrance into rooms and your underbelly/visibility.
Also: tier1 spikes and bite and spores. tier 2: umbra, tier 3: primal scream.
Spikes are just really useless. At least spore is finally useful after the buff.
You didnt need full tech trees or performance to experience the cheese of hiding in a dark corner and sporing from a distance, never to be seen. They tweaked it for an entire year and the fundamental issue existed in that it was frustrating to not be able to fight something that can hurt/kill you. I remember staying lerk all game without even trying.
That doesnt mean that crop dusting spores dont need work, however.
I'd love to see the spores shoot out in front of you for some distance, protecting your entrance into rooms and your underbelly/visibility.
Also: tier1 spikes and bite and spores. tier 2: umbra, tier 3: primal scream.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To say ranged spores didn't work in the past is ignoring some major balance issues that where around at the time.
For example Exo's did not exist so marines would never be immune to the effects as they are when in an exo.
Now we have exo's they dont suffer from teh Spores so its less powerful.
It comes out after 2nd hive...after leap and most likely blink too...so by the time its out should be 7+ min in and marines could have exo's.
We also now have tanks with miniguns for the marines to turtle around as they move from hive to hive.
Aliens do not have a decent way besides suicide runs to try to break things up, the biggest issue is the marines welding.
Lerks cant get close enough to an exo to drop spores....so there is nothing that discourages marines from turtling exo's with welders.
I know we all like exo's...but aliens need a counter to it...besides wasting sh1tloads of res and sacrificing lifeforms (often futile).
Marines have flamers to sap gorges of energy and healing...they have GL's too.
Aliens have nothing to force marines from turtling the exo's with welders (and dont say their lifeforms as thats like saying marines should take down onos with lmg only..sure is do-able but bloody hard)
Now we have exo's they dont suffer from teh Spores so its less powerful.
It comes out after 2nd hive...after leap and most likely blink too...so by the time its out should be 7+ min in and marines could have exo's.
We also now have tanks with miniguns for the marines to turtle around as they move from hive to hive.
Aliens do not have a decent way besides suicide runs to try to break things up, the biggest issue is the marines welding.
Lerks cant get close enough to an exo to drop spores....so there is nothing that discourages marines from turtling exo's with welders.
I know we all like exo's...but aliens need a counter to it...besides wasting sh1tloads of res and sacrificing lifeforms (often futile).
Marines have flamers to sap gorges of energy and healing...they have GL's too.
Aliens have nothing to force marines from turtling the exo's with welders (and dont say their lifeforms as thats like saying marines should take down onos with lmg only..sure is do-able but bloody hard)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>"For example Exo's did not exist so marines would never be immune to the effects as they are when in an exo."</i>
This is isolated from the reason why i said it didnt work. So the inclusion of exos during <i>late game</i> - when lerks aren't that useful or typically purchased anyways - have little to do with the issue : the interaction or lack thereof between non exo marines and the ranged spores.
Counter to Exo is being worked on.. (no nothing new, just tweaking variables)
Flamethrowers doesn't "sap" your energy like they used to, they prevent the regeneration of your energy.
Aliens have BB, umbra, enzymes , stomp (for those welders), vortex, and soon hopefully a better xenocide.
There's plenty of game enders that work if done properly.. and to force the lerk back into ranged spores not only doesn't address the reason why they didn't work in the first place but doesn't solve anything here that you think needs addressing either. (just fly high and spore fast when you have support/distractions below? Duck and weave, buddy.)
Someone at the very least needs to bring in ranged spores again in some way, be it a mod or a single build somewhere down the line to actually give it some real testing.
Edit: a few more thoughts: I love the look of trail spores but still realize generally that swooping in with a melee dot is mostly going to just get you face blasted a fair bit by anyone with a decent rig and a central nervous system. The payoff is just too low for the risk if it's a proper support weapon with a relatively low DOT and making it too useful damage-wise kills it's point as a support weapon.
I really don't personally see it working out in an environment of ideal frame rate across the board without turning it into an plain offensive ability instead of a support as it is. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The problem with crop dusting spores is that they require the lerk to get too close... they get focus fired or shotguned easily.
The problem with NS1 ranged spores is that a lerk can easily stay at maximum distance and spore away.
I think we need something in between. Something like a bile bomb, except it drops more and when it hits it sends out a gas cloud. Changing the drop of the projectile should help tweak it. The idea is that the lerk needs to get reasonably close to spore, but not so close that marines can easily kill him.
The problem with crop dusting spores is that they require the lerk to get too close... they get focus fired or shotguned easily.
The problem with NS1 ranged spores is that a lerk can easily stay at maximum distance and spore away.
I think we need something in between. Something like a bile bomb, except it drops more and when it hits it sends out a gas cloud. Changing the drop of the projectile should help tweak it. The idea is that the lerk needs to get reasonably close to spore, but not so close that marines can easily kill him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->Hmm, not too bad an idea going that direction, actually, returning it's bombing runs. It'd keep better to the design direction they wanted for the swooping lerk too. Anything would be a better delivery method than crop dusting at this point though.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This is isolated from the reason why i said it didnt work. So the inclusion of exos during <i>late game</i> - when lerks aren't that useful or typically purchased anyways - have little to do with the issue : the interaction or lack thereof between non exo marines and the ranged spores.
Counter to Exo is being worked on.. (no nothing new, just tweaking variables)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean like the 2x damage bile will do to exo's?
Does nothing to increase late game viability of lerk...or a real way for aliens to deal with welding marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1978339:date=Sep 16 2012, 01:38 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 16 2012, 01:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978339"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Flamethrowers doesn't "sap" your energy like they used to, they prevent the regeneration of your energy.
Aliens have BB, umbra, enzymes , stomp (for those welders), vortex, and soon hopefully a better xenocide.
There's plenty of game enders that work if done properly.. and to force the lerk back into ranged spores not only doesn't address the reason why they didn't work in the first place but doesn't solve anything here that you think needs addressing either. (just fly high and spore fast when you have support/distractions below? Duck and weave, buddy.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you try healing an onos when you can regen energy and he is being hit by 2-3 marines or 1 exo...flamers do a graet job at rendering any healing useless.
Have you tried to avoid 3 exos as lerk plus 3-4 marines? you may make 1 pass but 2 is extremely unlikely.
You say there are plenty of alien game enders...well then why do most alien victories come from marines recycling? Obviously they dont agree that aliens have decent game enders and as such dont want to waste 10-15 minutes as aliens try to push into teh last tech point against W3 A3 marines.
Spores do damage to the marines none of the suggestions you put forward do anything but stop them engaging for a short period (with exception of enzyme).
I wont disagree that in earlier builds ranged spores where a bit of an issue but there has been a lot of discussion since spores became trailing creating alternatives that are not as ranged but dont require lerks to get within suicide range.
The fact we see 10 res gorges as being more valuable than 30 Res lerks late game shows there is an issue.
Heck even 0 Res skulks are better value late game.
Xenocide does not really help your side as you die...have random hive spawning...and possibly ending up the other side of the map to the conflict.
I dont think we need spores to be any greater than what spikes are (perhaps drop to 40) but if we want to see lerks played late game they need an attack that is not suicide.
I guess if we dont mind that lerks are not used at all late game...and sparily midgame then lets leave it as is...or better yet just remove the lerk.
The problem with crop dusting spores is that they require the lerk to get too close... they get focus fired or shotguned easily.
The problem with NS1 ranged spores is that a lerk can easily stay at maximum distance and spore away.
I think we need something in between. Something like a bile bomb, except it drops more and when it hits it sends out a gas cloud. Changing the drop of the projectile should help tweak it. The idea is that the lerk needs to get reasonably close to spore, but not so close that marines can easily kill him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hey look it's my exact idea from like 8 months ago!
how many times does this need to be repeated?
how many times does this need to be repeated?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im surprised they never implemented that, considering how many people approved of it. At least they made spores be affected by gravity.
I dont think we need spores to be any greater than what spikes are (perhaps drop to 40) but if we want to see lerks played late game they need an attack that is not suicide.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See i think this is the issue right here ^
People want to act like a skulk or a fade or an onos when they lerk. That's not the role of the lerk! He is a harasser and supporter. (recent builds have made him more into combat, this is true, but if you ask me it was done wrong and won't work well like this)
So players who actually try sporing a room of 3 exos and 4 marines are simply making a bad call.. that's asinine. You wouldnt try to run through that crowd as the other support unit: the gorge, <i>would you?</i>
Your job as the lerk is to coordinate your attacks with your teamates or simply follow them around. You are not a killer by design.
He can be worth the 30 pres (With spores) - if you play him correctly - not as a killer but as area denial, or picking at marines and keeping them busy, or wasting ammo, or causing chaos etc etc.
And yea i think there are great ideas for spores. I'd personally like to see them take on momentum so that you can swoop into the entrance of a room, and spray while pulling a 180, throwing your gas into those welders without exposure. That will take skill at least, and include much more risk than playing peek-a-boo around a corner 50 meters away which is something that no amount of framerate can compete against.
But this wont solve your problem, still.. even getting some gas into that crowd of welders safely isn't going to be an "ender" like you want. The means to end games as aliens already exist, you just have to have teamwork and coordinate. Any gander at competitive matches will demonstrate this, clearly. They use BB, Enzymes, umbra if they have it, fades to lock down IPs.. etc etc.
People want to act like a skulk or a fade or an onos when they lerk. That's not the role of the lerk! He is a harasser and supporter. (recent builds have made him more into combat, this is true, but if you ask me it was done wrong and won't work well like this)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a reoccurring problem with aliens in NS2 though. The alien lifeforms are constantly forced into encounters which they have no chance of winning. Yes, the Lerk has absolutely no chance of surviving a pass against 3 exos and 4 marines, but doing anything other than trying to make that pass renders the Lerk completely ineffective and basically ignorable.
Its power of "harassment" is an annoyance at the most, and non existent at the least.
Can agree here.
Also, more generally, it's a mistake to regard the ranged spore trial has conclusive given the abysmal performance at the time. If you're going down that route, the 10-year trial for ranged spores from NS1 would probably be more convincing.
It's also a mistake to ignore the variety of ranged solutions that people have proposed. The only (broken performance) testing that was done was for the NS1 spores but there has been no indication that momentum spores or any other kind of solution has ever been considered, let alone tested.
Spores - 1 Hive ability
Umbra - 2 Hive ability
With Umbra at 2 hives the Lerk becomes very useful and sought after even on small maps like Veil where a 2 VS 2 tech point standoff is common.
I posted this in Ideas and Suggestions also.
For what it's worth, I hacked together momentum-based spores in like half an hour, in my first time looking at the ns2 game code
Just sayin'
The inherent issue with lerks I think is spikes being useless. I almost never use them. Having to hover to line up spike fire just makes you vulnerable if attacking a marine. Their damage on structures at range due to spread is extremely low and therefore not worth your time.
Lerks need another ability instead of spikes. Perhaps another damage over time based ability to really make the lerk a DoT user?
Maybe make spikes refresh the DoT on bite? Or enhance it? Like the bite injects poison and the spikes are coated with a catalyst for that poison.
@Imbalanxd: playing a role outside of your given role like a fade swiping a structure or a gorge taking on 2 marines, has its inherent risks and should be avoided, yet not impossible.. also skill should close that gap too.. so like Chicken of war says above, he was able to skillfully pull it off (or the marines were just dumb, same thing) so its not always impossible.. but it should definitely be discouraged or difficult. Because fades that destroy structures ruins the soft RPS mechanics /trade-offs.
The lerk is highly useful for slowing marines down. (with spores) Through area denial, or picking at marines and keeping them busy, or wasting ammo, or causing chaos, or being a force multiplier for your teammates. etc etc.
Your response alone demonstrates my original point that people arent playing it correctly, and maybe that's a design issue that needs to be addressed. (i say a single descriptor in one word above the lifeform, i.e. "Surgical Striker" "Meat shield" "Fragile Harasser")
But the bottom line is you are not forced to play outside your role.
You can, however, coordinate with your team and use your lifeform how its designed to, often to much greater effect.
But obviously i'm not saying the lerk is fine, just see my past pages of posts, and changes do need to be made. Just not changes which remove proper role usage. (hence why the lerk is doing so poorly right now)
Skill has no place in an argument of balance. If someone undertakes an action which they should not emerge victorious from, then regardless of the outcome, they are not victorious. If the marines he is flying past are just bad, then what relevance does that have to this discussion? If the Lerk is forced to perform action X, and more often than not fails to do X, then something is wrong. Everything else is irrelevant.
@imbalanxd: "If the Lerk is forced to perform action X, and more often than not fails to do X, then something is wrong."
He is not failing to do X.. he is failing to do Y, which was your argument last post, doing something he shouldnt be, and people not understanding his role and purpose.
And skill definitely has an argument in balance, why else do you think competitive matches show what is working and what is not? It also has a lot to do with game design and soft mechanics vs hard counters. If a gorge kills 2 marines by himself he IS victorious no matter what you think? idk what point you were trying to prove there, sorry
Combat engineers aren't supposed to take on players? Oh, I guess that explains why the gorge is so dull to play, he isn't actually a combat engineer, AT ALL. Instead he's the same as in NS 1, minus 75% of the tasks that made him interesting to play (hive, chamber drops, team coordination)
The lerk is a different thing entirely, but it suffices to state that I rarely ever see anyone play it any more, with reason. It needs some serious addressing. Spores simply aren't worth the investment over things like leap and blink at the moment, and the lerk with just spikes and bite hardly causes more 'confusion' or 'problems' for the marines than a skulk does. The spikes could easily receive a buff, together with the bite and the fragile platform they're simply not worth the 30 p.res.
I'm looking it over and the current lerk code is different enough that it's not gonna drop in the same way.
It was basically borrowing from how spores used to fall to the ground. You make something that grabs the player's velocity in CreateSporeCloud(), and then increment the cloud's position off that with each update step.
I'm sure there's a better way to do it now, but that much was really easy. I think when I left off, I needed to make it so clouds don't fly through walls in the xz plane (some kind of tracing stuff?)
<!--quoteo(post=1978624:date=Sep 16 2012, 04:34 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 16 2012, 04:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->he was able to skillfully pull it off (or the marines were just dumb, same thing)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a game with close starts, a single gorge can lure half a pub team of marines into wasting thier game attacking a clog wall just outside of the hive, if you don't get kills as lerk, wait untill a coordinated push on a marine spawn point and then fly around gassing, especially fun for the final/win assault, soooo much gurgling.
People want to act like a skulk or a fade or an onos when they lerk. That's not the role of the lerk! He is a harasser and supporter. (recent builds have made him more into combat, this is true, but if you ask me it was done wrong and won't work well like this)
So players who actually try sporing a room of 3 exos and 4 marines are simply making a bad call.. that's asinine. You wouldnt try to run through that crowd as the other support unit: the gorge, <i>would you?</i>
Your job as the lerk is to coordinate your attacks with your teamates or simply follow them around. You are not a killer by design.
He can be worth the 30 pres (With spores) - if you play him correctly - not as a killer but as area denial, or picking at marines and keeping them busy, or wasting ammo, or causing chaos etc etc.
And yea i think there are great ideas for spores. I'd personally like to see them take on momentum so that you can swoop into the entrance of a room, and spray while pulling a 180, throwing your gas into those welders without exposure. That will take skill at least, and include much more risk than playing peek-a-boo around a corner 50 meters away which is something that no amount of framerate can compete against.
But this wont solve your problem, still.. even getting some gas into that crowd of welders safely isn't going to be an "ender" like you want. The means to end games as aliens already exist, you just have to have teamwork and coordinate. Any gander at competitive matches will demonstrate this, clearly. They use BB, Enzymes, umbra if they have it, fades to lock down IPs.. etc etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So after investing 30 res...best I can do as a lerk is sit in the room next to everyone and watch?
flying past, as you admitted is not wise, most marines groups take out a lerk ahead of a skulk..even so I dont like being a 30 decoy.
I am not saying gas need to be an "ender" in itself but that the lerk should be able to contribute to breaking that last stronghold...currently its rare to see a lerk late game as its a waste of 30 res more often than not.
Sure by not trying to engage and harras the marines whilst my teams re-spawning/trasiting back to battle I increase my lifeexpectancy...but the marines can also heal and push easier. The limited time of a battle and the benefit spores offer is too limited.
Whether they are fully ranged, partial range or a variant of these I dont care but trailing is just stupid for hive 2 ability.
He is not failing to do X.. he is failing to do Y, which was your argument last post, doing something he shouldnt be, and people not understanding his role and purpose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ye... Failing to do Y while being forced to do X.
I see most marines dealing with skulks if i'm lerking above with spores, moving fast.
But i agree about the decoy part.
<!--quoteo(post=1978850:date=Sep 16 2012, 10:01 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Sep 16 2012, 10:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am not saying gas need to be an "ender" in itself but that the lerk should be able to contribute to breaking that last stronghold...currently its rare to see a lerk late game as its a waste of 30 res more often than not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
umbra is very useful. But i think i know why he doesnt work well late game: fragile lifeform gets more fragile when up against W3. While i think he needs different set of weapons/tools at different times, i dont believe that would help his life late game so much beyond obscuration.
<!--quoteo(post=1978850:date=Sep 16 2012, 10:01 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Sep 16 2012, 10:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whether they are fully ranged, partial range or a variant of these I dont care but trailing is just stupid for hive 2 ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aha so we agree, make them hive 1 and they're now worth something? Cool beans?