<!--quoteo(post=1978887:date=Sep 17 2012, 07:10 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 17 2012, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978887"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see most marines dealing with skulks if i'm lerking above with spores, moving fast. But i agree about the decoy part.
umbra is very useful. But i think i know why he doesnt work well late game: fragile lifeform gets more fragile when up against W3. While i think he needs different set of weapons/tools at different times, i dont believe that would help his life late game so much beyond obscuration.
Aha so we agree, make them hive 1 and they're now worth something? Cool beans?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wait....what...no...agree...no...ahahah ;) seems we do *looks around nervously then books ski trip somewhere normally rather warm*
The lerks too weak late game to be using spores in the current format, it being tied to 2nd hive means we dont see it until weapon upgrades have happened. Moving it back to 1st hive would make the lerk playable early game (spikes and bite just dont seem to work as well) though still have issue with lerk late game....perhaps fully ranged umbra at 2nd hive? Allows lerk to play support late game and not suicide in doing so.
Spores as is are a waste, they are useless for 2nd hive ability unless they get ranged and the risk to the lerk is reduced. I am not saying we need full ranged spores but that we do need something other than what we have.
Imagine if you were able to actively reduce the amount of damage a marine could deal, by like, I don't know... stopping the bullets from getting to you. Then you could swoop down and put spores in the area, all the while helping your teammates as well.
I don't even understand why they put spores at T2. They should've kept it on the base lerk and severely buffed spikes to make it a worthy T2 option. It was that simple really, but somehow UWE needs to find out the hard way again. (I'm sure it'll take several more patches before this gets reverted, by then we may already be post release and the game will have had to ship with a ###### lerk in it) Experimenting is great and all, but so close to release they should really start going for what makes the most sense.
<!--quoteo(post=1979092:date=Sep 17 2012, 12:16 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Sep 17 2012, 12:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979092"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>I don't even understand why they put spores at T2.</b> They should've kept it on the base lerk and severely buffed spikes to make it a worthy T2 option. It was that simple really, but somehow UWE needs to find out the hard way again. (I'm sure it'll take several more patches before this gets reverted, by then we may already be post release and the game will have had to ship with a ###### lerk in it) <i>Experimenting is great and all, but so close to release they should really start going for what makes the most sense.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
@Bold: If you've read the thread, you would have seen where I said the reason why they made spikes baseline and spores t2 is so lerks can have a fighting chance against shotguns. The problem is spikes do nothing and spores in its current form is suicidal, making the lifeform all around a complete waste of resources.
@Italic: You mean like the NS1 Lerk, right? Because it worked there and still retained its usefulness throughout the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Bold: If you've read the thread, you would have seen where I said the reason why they made spikes baseline and spores t2 is so lerks can have a fighting chance against shotguns. The problem is spikes do nothing and spores in its current form is suicidal, making the lifeform all around a complete waste of resources.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With a fast hive and spikes unlock you could have spikes on your lerks by the time lerks become available and marines get shotguns so I'm not really following your train of thought on the matter. Spores is way more useful early on, when marines have less armour and area denial can be detrimental to early marine map control. (Provided aliens can get some fast extractors up)
<!--quoteo(post=1979144:date=Sep 17 2012, 02:06 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Sep 17 2012, 02:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With a fast hive and spikes unlock you could have spikes on your lerks by the time lerks become available and marines get shotguns so I'm not really following your train of thought on the matter. Spores is way more useful early on, when marines have less armour and area denial can be detrimental to early marine map control. (Provided aliens can get some fast extractors up)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fast hives don't always happen and spores don't do anything to armor as it bypasses it.
The problem with lerks flying through combat (imo) is that it breaks pvp combat too much. One life form I can deal with doing that (Fade) but having Skulks flying at me, Lerks flying past my head and Fades appearing behind me and it is too much in combat for me, and it sort of loses its tactical qualities. It basically gets messy.
<!--quoteo(post=1979153:date=Sep 17 2012, 06:29 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Sep 17 2012, 06:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979153"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with lerks flying through combat (imo) is that it breaks pvp combat too much. One life form I can deal with doing that (Fade) but having Skulks flying at me, Lerks flying past my head and Fades appearing behind me and it is too much in combat for me, and it sort of loses its tactical qualities. It basically gets messy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
doesn't sound like you can handle yourself very well then. Sounds more like personal, player issue rather then the game. So by what you just said, we should reduce the usefulness of the class to make it easy for personal experience? best tip I can give you? don't go "pvp" alone.
we seem to have problem here, and that is how Charlie trying to re-define the lerk class, that is the problem here. So rather then focus on how to balance things around what makes sense in charlie head, lets focus on what can work best, or has worked before. Face it, charlie trying to re-define the class has failed, adding bile bomb, removing range spores, constantly tweaking spikes every which way and can't figure out what role this class belongs to.
I've said it before, and say it again. Simply add ns1 style lerk, and we can even tweak his abilities for ns2, but leave his core abilities alone.
Ironhorse: It's still an issue if spores (as they are) are moved to tier1 to allow for early game usage. It should be of paramount design importance to create a skill that is viable throughout the entire game and that's just one reason why trailing spores are so problematic. Trail spores will only ever be consigned to a marginal survival bonus when fleeing in the late game and incredibly rare situations.
Just for some context, there is isn't a single skill that doesn't get used from NS1 at all stages of the game.
I dont see why you guys are complaining about spores and not spikes after the spore buff. It's really easy for me to lay down blankets of spores without being hit by marines. The trick is to not flap while sporing, as it depletes your energy too quickly. Just glide and quickly turn left and right in almost a zig zag motion to lay down just carpets of falling spores. I can fill an entire base full of spores that deal 20 direct DPS in seconds. It also helps to not try to fly in until after another alien has already engaged the marines. You can be in and out before they know it.
Spikes, however, are just useless as hell. They need to affect the poison dot from the bite.
<!--quoteo(post=1979443:date=Sep 18 2012, 10:42 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Sep 18 2012, 10:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979443"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont see why you guys are complaining about spores and not spikes after the spore buff. It's really easy for me to lay down blankets of spores without being hit by marines. The trick is to not flap while sporing, as it depletes your energy too quickly. Just glide and quickly turn left and right in almost a zig zag motion to lay down just carpets of falling spores. I can fill an entire base full of spores that deal 20 direct DPS in seconds. It also helps to not try to fly in until after another alien has already engaged the marines. You can be in and out before they know it.
Spikes, however, are just useless as hell. They need to affect the poison dot from the bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesn't matter how much you zig zag, gliding is infinitely more predictable than erratic movement changes while expending energy on flapping. Against half competent marines you will be blown out of the sky.
I would like a lerk with Spikes + Spores at Hive1; Umbra at Hive2; Bite at Hive3. Bite needs to be buffed than. The poison should only stop when at an armory.
You got 30res at the time shotguns come out. Spikes+Spores should be a counter to that. (Spores to cover yourself; Spikes to fight the shot gunner at range) Spikes are sadly not accurate enough. Umbra at Hive2 will keep the Lerk as support life form and increase its usefulness. (A buffed) Bite at Hive3 will finally make him to a killer if he can manage to get this close to a marine without getting seen.
<!--quoteo(post=1979519:date=Sep 18 2012, 01:27 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Sep 18 2012, 01:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979519"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like a lerk with Spikes + Spores at Hive1; Umbra at Hive2; Bite at Hive3. Bite needs to be buffed than. The poison should only stop when at an armory.
You got 30res at the time shotguns come out. Spikes+Spores should be a counter to that. (Spores to cover yourself; Spikes to fight the shot gunner at range) Spikes are sadly not accurate enough. Umbra at Hive2 will keep the Lerk as support life form and increase its usefulness. (A buffed) Bite at Hive3 will finally make him to a killer if he can manage to get this close to a marine without getting seen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can actually get shotguns out at 30 seconds in, you have the res for armoury, shotguns and 2 RTs as marines and you spawn with 20 res. If you see a lerk at any point just buy a shotgun and gg.
Swap spores and spikes back, buff spikes to actually be a T2 ability (or remove it and give us umbra at T2) so that the lerk can actually do its early game job of controlling marines in a corridor
So much moaning about nothing can kill shotguns and no chance at sporing a base. Lol. After I started playing the Lerk exclusively for a while to really get good at it I can tell you it's not so hopelessly useless as people keep trying to pass it off as since they don't want to put in the work to really get skilled at it. The extremely fast gameplay style is not for everyone and I hope they never change that aspect.
Shotguns will destroy you when you give them the opportunity, keyword opportunity. The trick is to dance around just out of deadly range, preferably popping in & out of cover trying to bait them to fire then you take advantage of the slow ROF. If spores aren't researched yet you still have a fighting chance as long as they aren't 3/3 because while he pumps for the next shot your speed allows you to swoop in, bite and hover around his blind side continually while hes trying to find you pumping spikes into his back. If he starts to track you again you simply disengage and repeat the process (the poison really shines here). When he's low HP enough you can just go balls out and start spiking him head on from a distance (Yay increased range) after you bait the shot popping out of cover every time he pumps.
Also spores are T2 because they are extremely powerful, so it's not that flawed of an idea.
Now for sporing the last stronghold, if you're coming in at max gliding speed with spores already being released your sheer speed combined with evasive flying saves you from being killed instantly. The more you saturate the area the less visible you are so again people are distorting reality here by saying it's impossible. Yes good players will be grazing you here and there but not "blow you out of the sky" if you play properly. The biggest problem for me is being killed by grenades on maps with low ceilings.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1979624:date=Sep 18 2012, 09:04 AM:name=coldsmoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (coldsmoke @ Sep 18 2012, 09:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also spores are T2 because they are extremely powerful, so it's not that flawed of an idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No offense, but it seems You've missed the major points of why they are needed/mostly useful early game, check out the previous pages. <!--quoteo(post=1979624:date=Sep 18 2012, 09:04 AM:name=coldsmoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (coldsmoke @ Sep 18 2012, 09:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes good players will be grazing you here and there but not "blow you out of the sky" if you play properly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> they actually do, good players at least. Try playing up against some competitive teams , a good shooter can take out even the best dodging and weaving lerks.
<!--quoteo(post=1979639:date=Sep 18 2012, 11:32 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 18 2012, 11:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No offense, but it seems You've missed the major points of why they are needed/mostly useful early game, check out the previous pages.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been reading but I'm simply commenting on what we already have, i'm not trying to play theorycraft.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->they actually do, good players at least. Try playing up against some competitive teams , a good shooter can take out even the best dodging and weaving lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
celerity is your friend, max gliding speed is INSANELY fast. And let's say even with that you get sniped, well that's what a skulk distraction is for until you build up the spores. Hey is there even an IRC channel for competitive NS, or is it still too small
Coldsmoke knows what he's talking about. Sometimes I take carapace and celerity as a lerk if there are really competent shotgunners on the enemy team cara to survive that first shotgun blast and celerity so I don't get too slowed down from cara. You can still spore long enough using the gliding method to fill a base with spores and if you take too much damage you can get outta there.
Lerks are the most mobile class in the game (i still prefer lerk for killing jetpackers over fade) and I just think people need to give them a bit more practice before calling down judgement. Think I'll make a video.
No one honestly cares that you can survive longer by taking celerity over adren, or just survive longer than what most people make lerks out to be in this thread. The fact is lerks don't bring anything to the plate. For 30 resources, you nerf yourself so you can become a "nuisance" for the marines. Your killing power is reduced, structure destroying power sucks, and you are barely faster than a skulk that has leap/celerity which is hardly much. I can troll all game too as a lerk against pubs, whoopdedoo, but I'm doing less overall than I do by staying a skulk. The only way to fix lerk is by bring back NS1 lerk and nothing short, until then, you're far more effective saving for a fade.
No one honestly cares that you can survive longer by taking celerity over adren, or just survive longer than what most people make lerks out to be in this thread. The fact is lerks don't bring anything to the plate. For 30 resources, you nerf yourself so you can become a "nuisance" for the marines. Your killing power is reduced, structure destroying power sucks, and you are barely faster than a skulk that has leap/celerity which is hardly much. I can troll all game too as a lerk against pubs, whoopdedoo, but I'm doing less overall than I do by staying a skulk. The only way to fix lerk is by bring back NS1 lerk and nothing short, until then, you're far more effective saving for a fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guess you didn't read my post earlier about how I killed every single normal marine welding exos in an exo rush with one lerk flyby. Spores actually do damage now. I can also kill more jetpackers as a lerk than most fades on my team, especially if they're attacking cargo hive on veil. Lerks are far more maneuverable than fades, let alone skulks even with celerity. Theres just no comparison there.
Fades are wasting time if they are killing structures as well by the way.
All lerks need is another utility ability instead of spikes or some kind of buff or reworking to spikes and they will be that much more viable. Spores, however, are fine.
Here's a friendly tip when posting in discussion forums like this one. Never try and make a point by saying how awesome you are and how one time you did a 360 no scope and hit 7 exos in the head from sub sector to pipe line. When your post count is less than 20, they are just going to think you an even bigger noob, and if you aren't a competitive player, what you say won't mean a thing. If you are a competitive player, people will just think you are pub stomping.
Long story short, don't come here to reminisce about how awesome you think you are and how great your adventures have been. No one cares about your anecdotal balance evidence that you centre around a single event.
Back to objective theory crafting rather than bringing up unrelated scenarios that may or may not have happened. The Lerk's fly speed is largely irrelevant. Due to the current setup, the only ability really worth using most of the time is bite. When you have to bite, your fly speed doesn't count for ###### because most of the time you are going to be colliding with your target then reversing, or at the very least coming in at a predictable trajectory. One shotgun shot and you are essentially dead. Over. 30 res gone. Nothing you can actively do will ensure that you won't take that single shot, other than only ever approaching marines who are distracted or looking the other way, which brings me back to the main focus of this entire thread.
The Lerk has to wait for such specific and perfect circumstances before he can make an attack which is weaker than a skulks, so why the hell go Lerk? Spores are respectable, but compared to leap, bile bomb and blink, they are the last priority.
Imbalanxd my account has existed here for nearly ten years buddy. Watch it.
I wasn't saying that lerks are perfectly balanced the way they are, I was simply stating that they aren't so bad off that they need something ridiculous like ranged spores. I was the first one to complain that the lerk nerf was going to make them useless. However after the buff if I have spores I do plenty of damage on a regular basis.
The thing useless is spikes. If the spike fire rate was reduced (to maybe about one spike a second) and the spikes had a world of warcraft style deadly poison effect (stacks up to 5 times, dealing more dps with each stack, each hit refreshes the poison if you already have 5 stacks on someone) then the lerk could be an assassin type class with an interesting DoT niche that could be an actual threat before hive 2. Maybe to prevent lerks just hanging back and getting kills this poison wouldnt actually do much damage but the lerk bite 'detonates' the stacks as a kind of finishing blow the lerk has to swoop in for.
I also saw quite a few lerks during the wasabi cup. Dont tell me they didn't know what they were doing.
It's so risky and difficult to land a bite with a lerk that I feel like it should do absolutely massive damage, perhaps 1-hit-kill on level 0 armor marines. The lerk is a mid-game lifeform anyway and needs to hold up. Perhaps 2 bites for level 1 and 2 and 3 for level 3 armor to encourage armor upgrades for marines which are currently reserved for when fades appear, mostly...
Maybe the bite can also do some kind of poison effect on the marine which does DOT? IDK.
<!--quoteo(post=1979803:date=Sep 19 2012, 12:07 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Sep 19 2012, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979803"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also saw quite a few lerks during the wasabi cup. Dont tell me they didn't know what they were doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where? I didn't see any but I was told one person went Lerk. Don't think it ended well though.
<!--quoteo(post=1979816:date=Sep 18 2012, 04:18 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 18 2012, 04:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979816"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where? I didn't see any but I was told one person went Lerk. Don't think it ended well though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Onso I believe went lerk in one of the games. Can't remember which game but it was on veil. I think they won actually, but he was the only lerk I saw in all the games. Maybe I wasn't paying attention.
I saw a fade egg in every game though ;-) ... if you know what I mean.
<!--quoteo(post=1979820:date=Sep 19 2012, 12:24 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Sep 19 2012, 12:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979820"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Onso I believe went lerk in one of the games. Can't remember which game but it was on veil. I think they won actually, but he was the only lerk I saw in all the games. Maybe I wasn't paying attention.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was probably in one of the first games as a party trick.
Mind you, the number of lifeforms seen in these tournaments doesn't mean much, or at least I really hope it doesn't. If it does, then the game is in a truly sorry state. 70% of players are skulks, 29% are fades, and the other 1% is the other 3 lifeforms. I don't think I saw a single person <b>actively </b>play gorge, that is to say remain gorge for a prolonged time or enter combat as gorge. Sure, a few went gorge for a minute or less to heal a hive or something, but nobody ever had the intention of actually playing that lifeform. Onos were basically non existent as well. I correctly predicted the imminent death of the very first Onos I saw approximately 20 seconds later.
<!--quoteo(post=1979778:date=Sep 18 2012, 04:24 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 18 2012, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979778"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When your post count is less than 20, they are just going to think you an even bigger noob, and if you aren't a competitive player, what you say won't mean a thing. If you are a competitive player, people will just think you are pub stomping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What <b>YOU </b>say doesn't mean a thing, you think because you love chatting about a video game that makes you higher than someone else, you think because you play on one laughably small competitive scene that puts you above someone else. LOL. An arrogant man is all you are.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Long story short, don't come here to reminisce about how awesome you think you are and how great your adventures have been. No one cares about your anecdotal balance evidence that you centre around a single event.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Someone's a little butthurt, and you aren't cevo p.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When you have to bite, your fly speed doesn't count for ###### because most of the time you are going to be colliding with your target then reversing, or at the very least coming in at a predictable trajectory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't put us all in the same boat because you fail at flying NEXT to someone as opposed to straight at them. Your e-peen post is fueled by tears.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->. One shotgun shot and you are essentially dead. Over. 30 res gone. Nothing you can actively do will ensure that you won't take that single shot, other than only ever approaching marines who are distracted or looking the other way,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No one cares about your anecdotal balance evidence that you centre around a single event. Sound familiar?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Lerk has to wait for such specific and perfect circumstances before he can make an attack which is weaker than a skulks, so why the hell go Lerk? Spores are respectable, but compared to leap, bile bomb and blink, they are the last priority.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being a final nail in the coffin during a prolonged siege is a good use, because you are unable to think of uses doesn't mean they don't exist.
There are no successful games designed based on anecdotes from forum posters with no tangible evidence
There ARE games designed based on analysis of dedicated players who truly understand their game and compete on a high level
NS2 wants to (and should) follow this pattern, because it's the only way (right now) that anyone can make this aspect of the game come out correctly. when someone figures out how to harness the power of casual players' forum posting, the video game industry will explode and take over every other form of media...until then you can expect us to want a bit of rigor :)
At this point in the game's life, it doesn't even matter if you're a competitive player, or if you play a LOT more than someone else...the game as a whole is still so unreliable (in terms of performance, skill gaps, map quality...etc) that video evidence isn't terribly useful. In fact, if you go back month-by-month, you can see how the design of the lerk has gone downhill as the development was geared toward flawed evidence from VERY few people in the community. It's fun!
Good theorycrafting right now relies on understanding general ideas about design, other 'high skill' games and that kind of thing...not how much you've played the ns2 beta on 10 tick servers at less than 60 fps.
Man I said it before, I'm not theorycrafting. I was just discussing because this is a general discussion forum. It should be taken for what it is, I had to make the point that tactics can change everything.
And I know what you mean i'm not new to this, been playing competitive CS since 2001.
<!--quoteo(post=1979873:date=Sep 18 2012, 07:57 PM:name=coldsmoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (coldsmoke @ Sep 18 2012, 07:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979873"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Man I said it before, I'm not theorycrafting. I was just discussing because this is a general discussion forum. It should be taken for what it is, I had to make the point that tactics can change everything.
And I know what you mean i'm not new to this, been playing competitive CS since 2001.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's hard to argue with such general ideas
but at the end of the day...you tried to tell him he doesn't know how to suicide at point blank as the lerk correctly none of your experiences can contradict the fact that the lerk's design forces it to be ineffective or take tremendous risks for small gains (in the form of laying down on top of shotguns to die) ... whether the name is 'general discussion' or not, it's not useful to outright lie about these things to people who have spent a lot of time thinking about them
<!--quoteo(post=1979656:date=Sep 18 2012, 12:55 PM:name=coldsmoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (coldsmoke @ Sep 18 2012, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->celerity is your friend, max gliding speed is INSANELY fast. And let's say even with that you get sniped, well that's what a skulk distraction is for until you build up the spores. Hey is there even an IRC channel for competitive NS, or is it still too small<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
seriously..you think we haven't tried these things? if I can trade my shotgun for a dead lerk, I'll probably do it every single time...unless I know the lerk player is the worst on the team and I want him to stick with his useless pres investment flapping around. there's no notion of "building up spores" either..
Comments
But i agree about the decoy part.
umbra is very useful. But i think i know why he doesnt work well late game: fragile lifeform gets more fragile when up against W3. While i think he needs different set of weapons/tools at different times, i dont believe that would help his life late game so much beyond obscuration.
Aha so we agree, make them hive 1 and they're now worth something? Cool beans?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait....what...no...agree...no...ahahah ;)
seems we do *looks around nervously then books ski trip somewhere normally rather warm*
The lerks too weak late game to be using spores in the current format, it being tied to 2nd hive means we dont see it until weapon upgrades have happened.
Moving it back to 1st hive would make the lerk playable early game (spikes and bite just dont seem to work as well) though still have issue with lerk late game....perhaps fully ranged umbra at 2nd hive? Allows lerk to play support late game and not suicide in doing so.
Spores as is are a waste, they are useless for 2nd hive ability unless they get ranged and the risk to the lerk is reduced.
I am not saying we need full ranged spores but that we do need something other than what we have.
Man, if only that were possible.
@Bold: If you've read the thread, you would have seen where I said the reason why they made spikes baseline and spores t2 is so lerks can have a fighting chance against shotguns. The problem is spikes do nothing and spores in its current form is suicidal, making the lifeform all around a complete waste of resources.
@Italic: You mean like the NS1 Lerk, right? Because it worked there and still retained its usefulness throughout the game.
With a fast hive and spikes unlock you could have spikes on your lerks by the time lerks become available and marines get shotguns so I'm not really following your train of thought on the matter. Spores is way more useful early on, when marines have less armour and area denial can be detrimental to early marine map control. (Provided aliens can get some fast extractors up)
Fast hives don't always happen and spores don't do anything to armor as it bypasses it.
doesn't sound like you can handle yourself very well then. Sounds more like personal, player issue rather then the game. So by what you just said, we should reduce the usefulness of the class to make it easy for personal experience? best tip I can give you? don't go "pvp" alone.
we seem to have problem here, and that is how Charlie trying to re-define the lerk class, that is the problem here. So rather then focus on how to balance things around what makes sense in charlie head, lets focus on what can work best, or has worked before. Face it, charlie trying to re-define the class has failed, adding bile bomb, removing range spores, constantly tweaking spikes every which way and can't figure out what role this class belongs to.
I've said it before, and say it again. Simply add ns1 style lerk, and we can even tweak his abilities for ns2, but leave his core abilities alone.
Just for some context, there is isn't a single skill that doesn't get used from NS1 at all stages of the game.
Spikes, however, are just useless as hell. They need to affect the poison dot from the bite.
Spikes, however, are just useless as hell. They need to affect the poison dot from the bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesn't matter how much you zig zag, gliding is infinitely more predictable than erratic movement changes while expending energy on flapping. Against half competent marines you will be blown out of the sky.
Bite needs to be buffed than. The poison should only stop when at an armory.
You got 30res at the time shotguns come out. Spikes+Spores should be a counter to that. (Spores to cover yourself; Spikes to fight the shot gunner at range) Spikes are sadly not accurate enough.
Umbra at Hive2 will keep the Lerk as support life form and increase its usefulness.
(A buffed) Bite at Hive3 will finally make him to a killer if he can manage to get this close to a marine without getting seen.
Bite needs to be buffed than. The poison should only stop when at an armory.
You got 30res at the time shotguns come out. Spikes+Spores should be a counter to that. (Spores to cover yourself; Spikes to fight the shot gunner at range) Spikes are sadly not accurate enough.
Umbra at Hive2 will keep the Lerk as support life form and increase its usefulness.
(A buffed) Bite at Hive3 will finally make him to a killer if he can manage to get this close to a marine without getting seen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can actually get shotguns out at 30 seconds in, you have the res for armoury, shotguns and 2 RTs as marines and you spawn with 20 res. If you see a lerk at any point just buy a shotgun and gg.
Swap spores and spikes back, buff spikes to actually be a T2 ability (or remove it and give us umbra at T2) so that the lerk can actually do its early game job of controlling marines in a corridor
Shotguns will destroy you when you give them the opportunity, keyword opportunity. The trick is to dance around just out of deadly range, preferably popping in & out of cover trying to bait them to fire then you take advantage of the slow ROF. If spores aren't researched yet you still have a fighting chance as long as they aren't 3/3 because while he pumps for the next shot your speed allows you to swoop in, bite and hover around his blind side continually while hes trying to find you pumping spikes into his back. If he starts to track you again you simply disengage and repeat the process (the poison really shines here). When he's low HP enough you can just go balls out and start spiking him head on from a distance (Yay increased range) after you bait the shot popping out of cover every time he pumps.
Also spores are T2 because they are extremely powerful, so it's not that flawed of an idea.
Now for sporing the last stronghold, if you're coming in at max gliding speed with spores already being released your sheer speed combined with evasive flying saves you from being killed instantly. The more you saturate the area the less visible you are so again people are distorting reality here by saying it's impossible. Yes good players will be grazing you here and there but not "blow you out of the sky" if you play properly. The biggest problem for me is being killed by grenades on maps with low ceilings.
No offense, but it seems You've missed the major points of why they are needed/mostly useful early game, check out the previous pages.
<!--quoteo(post=1979624:date=Sep 18 2012, 09:04 AM:name=coldsmoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (coldsmoke @ Sep 18 2012, 09:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes good players will be grazing you here and there but not "blow you out of the sky" if you play properly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
they actually do, good players at least. Try playing up against some competitive teams , a good shooter can take out even the best dodging and weaving lerks.
I've been reading but I'm simply commenting on what we already have, i'm not trying to play theorycraft.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->they actually do, good players at least. Try playing up against some competitive teams , a good shooter can take out even the best dodging and weaving lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
celerity is your friend, max gliding speed is INSANELY fast. And let's say even with that you get sniped, well that's what a skulk distraction is for until you build up the spores. Hey is there even an IRC channel for competitive NS, or is it still too small
Lerks are the most mobile class in the game (i still prefer lerk for killing jetpackers over fade) and I just think people need to give them a bit more practice before calling down judgement. Think I'll make a video.
No one honestly cares that you can survive longer by taking celerity over adren, or just survive longer than what most people make lerks out to be in this thread. The fact is lerks don't bring anything to the plate. For 30 resources, you nerf yourself so you can become a "nuisance" for the marines. Your killing power is reduced, structure destroying power sucks, and you are barely faster than a skulk that has leap/celerity which is hardly much. I can troll all game too as a lerk against pubs, whoopdedoo, but I'm doing less overall than I do by staying a skulk. The only way to fix lerk is by bring back NS1 lerk and nothing short, until then, you're far more effective saving for a fade.
No one honestly cares that you can survive longer by taking celerity over adren, or just survive longer than what most people make lerks out to be in this thread. The fact is lerks don't bring anything to the plate. For 30 resources, you nerf yourself so you can become a "nuisance" for the marines. Your killing power is reduced, structure destroying power sucks, and you are barely faster than a skulk that has leap/celerity which is hardly much. I can troll all game too as a lerk against pubs, whoopdedoo, but I'm doing less overall than I do by staying a skulk. The only way to fix lerk is by bring back NS1 lerk and nothing short, until then, you're far more effective saving for a fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guess you didn't read my post earlier about how I killed every single normal marine welding exos in an exo rush with one lerk flyby. Spores actually do damage now. I can also kill more jetpackers as a lerk than most fades on my team, especially if they're attacking cargo hive on veil. Lerks are far more maneuverable than fades, let alone skulks even with celerity. Theres just no comparison there.
Fades are wasting time if they are killing structures as well by the way.
All lerks need is another utility ability instead of spikes or some kind of buff or reworking to spikes and they will be that much more viable. Spores, however, are fine.
Long story short, don't come here to reminisce about how awesome you think you are and how great your adventures have been. No one cares about your anecdotal balance evidence that you centre around a single event.
Back to objective theory crafting rather than bringing up unrelated scenarios that may or may not have happened. The Lerk's fly speed is largely irrelevant. Due to the current setup, the only ability really worth using most of the time is bite. When you have to bite, your fly speed doesn't count for ###### because most of the time you are going to be colliding with your target then reversing, or at the very least coming in at a predictable trajectory. One shotgun shot and you are essentially dead. Over. 30 res gone. Nothing you can actively do will ensure that you won't take that single shot, other than only ever approaching marines who are distracted or looking the other way, which brings me back to the main focus of this entire thread.
The Lerk has to wait for such specific and perfect circumstances before he can make an attack which is weaker than a skulks, so why the hell go Lerk? Spores are respectable, but compared to leap, bile bomb and blink, they are the last priority.
I wasn't saying that lerks are perfectly balanced the way they are, I was simply stating that they aren't so bad off that they need something ridiculous like ranged spores. I was the first one to complain that the lerk nerf was going to make them useless. However after the buff if I have spores I do plenty of damage on a regular basis.
The thing useless is spikes. If the spike fire rate was reduced (to maybe about one spike a second) and the spikes had a world of warcraft style deadly poison effect (stacks up to 5 times, dealing more dps with each stack, each hit refreshes the poison if you already have 5 stacks on someone) then the lerk could be an assassin type class with an interesting DoT niche that could be an actual threat before hive 2. Maybe to prevent lerks just hanging back and getting kills this poison wouldnt actually do much damage but the lerk bite 'detonates' the stacks as a kind of finishing blow the lerk has to swoop in for.
I also saw quite a few lerks during the wasabi cup. Dont tell me they didn't know what they were doing.
Maybe the bite can also do some kind of poison effect on the marine which does DOT? IDK.
Where? I didn't see any but I was told one person went Lerk. Don't think it ended well though.
Onso I believe went lerk in one of the games. Can't remember which game but it was on veil. I think they won actually, but he was the only lerk I saw in all the games. Maybe I wasn't paying attention.
I saw a fade egg in every game though ;-) ... if you know what I mean.
Was probably in one of the first games as a party trick.
Mind you, the number of lifeforms seen in these tournaments doesn't mean much, or at least I really hope it doesn't. If it does, then the game is in a truly sorry state. 70% of players are skulks, 29% are fades, and the other 1% is the other 3 lifeforms. I don't think I saw a single person <b>actively </b>play gorge, that is to say remain gorge for a prolonged time or enter combat as gorge. Sure, a few went gorge for a minute or less to heal a hive or something, but nobody ever had the intention of actually playing that lifeform. Onos were basically non existent as well. I correctly predicted the imminent death of the very first Onos I saw approximately 20 seconds later.
What <b>YOU </b>say doesn't mean a thing, you think because you love chatting about a video game that makes you higher than someone else, you think because you play on one laughably small competitive scene that puts you above someone else. LOL. An arrogant man is all you are.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Long story short, don't come here to reminisce about how awesome you think you are and how great your adventures have been. No one cares about your anecdotal balance evidence that you centre around a single event.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Someone's a little butthurt, and you aren't cevo p.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When you have to bite, your fly speed doesn't count for ###### because most of the time you are going to be colliding with your target then reversing, or at the very least coming in at a predictable trajectory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't put us all in the same boat because you fail at flying NEXT to someone as opposed to straight at them. Your e-peen post is fueled by tears.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->. One shotgun shot and you are essentially dead. Over. 30 res gone. Nothing you can actively do will ensure that you won't take that single shot, other than only ever approaching marines who are distracted or looking the other way,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one cares about your anecdotal balance evidence that you centre around a single event. Sound familiar?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Lerk has to wait for such specific and perfect circumstances before he can make an attack which is weaker than a skulks, so why the hell go Lerk? Spores are respectable, but compared to leap, bile bomb and blink, they are the last priority.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being a final nail in the coffin during a prolonged siege is a good use, because you are unable to think of uses doesn't mean they don't exist.
Sorry dude he's right.
There are no successful games designed based on anecdotes from forum posters with no tangible evidence
There ARE games designed based on analysis of dedicated players who truly understand their game and compete on a high level
NS2 wants to (and should) follow this pattern, because it's the only way (right now) that anyone can make this aspect of the game come out correctly. when someone figures out how to harness the power of casual players' forum posting, the video game industry will explode and take over every other form of media...until then you can expect us to want a bit of rigor :)
At this point in the game's life, it doesn't even matter if you're a competitive player, or if you play a LOT more than someone else...the game as a whole is still so unreliable (in terms of performance, skill gaps, map quality...etc) that video evidence isn't terribly useful. In fact, if you go back month-by-month, you can see how the design of the lerk has gone downhill as the development was geared toward flawed evidence from VERY few people in the community. It's fun!
Good theorycrafting right now relies on understanding general ideas about design, other 'high skill' games and that kind of thing...not how much you've played the ns2 beta on 10 tick servers at less than 60 fps.
And I know what you mean i'm not new to this, been playing competitive CS since 2001.
And I know what you mean i'm not new to this, been playing competitive CS since 2001.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's hard to argue with such general ideas
but at the end of the day...you tried to tell him he doesn't know how to suicide at point blank as the lerk correctly
none of your experiences can contradict the fact that the lerk's design forces it to be ineffective or take tremendous risks for small gains (in the form of laying down on top of shotguns to die) ... whether the name is 'general discussion' or not, it's not useful to outright lie about these things to people who have spent a lot of time thinking about them
<!--quoteo(post=1979656:date=Sep 18 2012, 12:55 PM:name=coldsmoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (coldsmoke @ Sep 18 2012, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->celerity is your friend, max gliding speed is INSANELY fast. And let's say even with that you get sniped, well that's what a skulk distraction is for until you build up the spores. Hey is there even an IRC channel for competitive NS, or is it still too small<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
seriously..you think we haven't tried these things? if I can trade my shotgun for a dead lerk, I'll probably do it every single time...unless I know the lerk player is the worst on the team and I want him to stick with his useless pres investment flapping around. there's no notion of "building up spores" either..