Unofficial Heatsink thread
TrC
Join Date: 2008-11-30 Member: 65612Members
Join Date: 2008-11-30 Member: 65612Members
<div class="IPBDescription">venting out drama here</div>I believe certain topic left at a very bad spot regarding casting and organizing it shall continue here.
It is my opinion that casters new/old and other promoters are very welcome to cast small tournament games and they are definetly not unwanted shunned or anything like that, but they have to follow actual playing players time and be understanding for delays not the otherway around. I'm very well aware that there are probably hundreds of watchers keenly waiting on some action, but hurrying the players will only lessen the quality of the game.
It is my opinion that casters new/old and other promoters are very welcome to cast small tournament games and they are definetly not unwanted shunned or anything like that, but they have to follow actual playing players time and be understanding for delays not the otherway around. I'm very well aware that there are probably hundreds of watchers keenly waiting on some action, but hurrying the players will only lessen the quality of the game.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
-Kouji San<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This kind of venting is extremely unprofessional and I expected more from official UWE representative. We are after all the teams that unofficially market the game for you and you lash back on to the competitive community because of one poster. Should we also judge your company because of this quote?
But once the uwe's big imba crazy cup will come with 100k on the prizepool I'll demand at least 30mins break the least and not 5 games in a row without any, that's just way too much especially for the commanders. Of course it's uwe's cup to show off the game so they probably want loads of action going all the time but I hope for the sake of players we get those well deserved breaks and reasonable amount games per day. And for the love of God could we please start a bit earlier for us euro nibz; it's no fun to play from 8pm to 1am, I'd much rather play from 10am to 3pm what the amuricans did now, at least most of them I guess.
Thanks!
Didn't think i was being unreasonable either? Great that he's doing all that other stuff but when it comes to casting games in a tournament that you are not hosting its irrelevant. Imagine if the commentators in a football game started directly abusing the players for "wasting time" or even started taking on the role of the referee. Professional commentating is detached. All the other stuff you might do outside of commentating has no bearing whatsoever.
Tournament = Player focused
Showmatch = Players playing for host/casters. Players generally paid to do so or receive some kind of compensation.
It was fun, casters were very entertaining and the games were exciting.
Was it perfect? No. Did anyone seriously expect it to be? I hope not. These things are never perfect, and obviously the first few times will be learning experiences. I have no doubt it will improve and I hope the people involved will keep doing it for the community.
It was fun, casters were very entertaining and the games were exciting.
Was it perfect? No. Did anyone seriously expect it to be? I hope not. These things are never perfect, and obviously the first few times will be learning experiences. I have no doubt it will improve and I hope the people involved will keep doing it for the community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a player and spectator in the Wasabi cup, I'd also second this.
Also, if you want a UWE representative that talks like a sanitised, corporate PR guy, you all better tell Flayra to fire me.
Also, if you want a UWE representative that talks like a sanitised, corporate PR guy, you all better tell Flayra to fire me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one is asking you to be anything you don't want to be... we all love what you do for the community Hugh, and I don't think anyone here thinks they could do a better job than you.
These are just forums though, that's it. People say rude & mean things sometimes on forums, you just gotta shrug them off. Please believe me when I say every single team and the vast majority of the competitive community supports you and we appreciate what you do, even though there are harsh posts sometimes, just like many posts about game balance, people only post because they care and because they want to see the quality of the game/casts be as good as it possibly can be.
so tl;dr I guess is please don't take everything that is said here to heart, take it with a grain of salt :) Most everyone has nothing but good intentions with their posts, even the more harshly worded ones.
But, u have to understand the point of view of competetive players. I for instance, never experienced a match that gets restarted because the stream isnt working. There are some other small things, that kinda force us to say, that these tournaments are showmatches. Its about how we experience the tournament. Its still a work in progress and no reason to rage on certain critics.
U and Wasabi added some nice feature to the stream while waiting for the teams to get ready. U did a great job there.
But still, u shouldnt take criticism so personally.
EDIT: Woops, hit post before finishing. Cont: Because of all the snipping, it looks like an attempt to cover up my words. That is certainly not what I want, I stand by all those comments, and in future no dev posts will ever be pulled off record on the forums. You guys should always be able to see and quote what has been said. I sincerely apologise to everyone that they are now unable to read those comments.
Now back to the drama!!
EDIT: Woops, hit post before finishing. Cont: Because of all the snipping, it looks like an attempt to cover up my words. That is certainly not what I want, I stand by all those comments, and in future no dev posts will ever be pulled off record on the forums. You guys should always be able to see and quote what has been said. I sincerely apologise to everyone that they are now unable to read those comments.
Now back to the drama!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hugh, I understand that a lot of this is coming off as criticism directed at you and Wasabi, but please do recognize that (at least most of us) aren't trying to put either of you down for what's taken place.
Many of us share the desire to promote and expand Natural Selection's competitive community, and we greatly appreciate the opportunity to do so through live streams.
But we just want you to try and see things from the players perspective as well. We signed on to play in tournaments, and we did so with an attitude of professionalism. Because they were promoted as Tournaments, we all had certain expectations about what we were taking part in and were both confused and frustrated when things deviated from those expectations.
Whatever the case, the past is the past, but now we're (at least most of us), are trying to help you and Wasabi out by giving you some advice and feedback regarding how these events are set up.
Please don't misunderstand us. We <b><i>WANT</i></b> to do <u>show matches</u> to benefit the Natural Selection competitive community. We <b><i>WANT</i></b> to promote the game so it gets bigger and we can form proper Leagues after release.
But we also want to advise you guys on how competitive casting is normally done. Do what you will with that advice, but we're all sitting here thinking about what happens when (hopefully) the competitive scene takes off after release, and we want you guys, our casters, to deliver the best quality eSports casting you can.
Some of it comes off as harsh on the forums, but I know some of us really just want to help you guys get better, so the community benefits from it.
That's all. I don't think there needs to be any drama over this topic at all.
As purely constructive criticism from a non-competitive spectator of the tourney, I did notice in the finale how you were not-so-subtlely trying to hand wave away the rule disputes without consulting anybody. Like when Wasabi went off to discuss the rules on the rematch victory and you more or less said "well it's his tourney but I think we can pretty much call Arc the winners." This stuff matters to the people who care about these events and you need to take it more seriously. Let the competitive scene dictate how they operate, you guys should just focus on giving them the spotlight.
You took control out of Nadyli.fi and ENSL's hands and basically told us we're done if we don't figure something out in 60 seconds or join Archaea's server and essentially call it a loss due to all 4 games on EU pings.
I wanted to express it to you because I want you to know I (and we as a team) expect improvements in that regard. The most recent cup was a ton better, and it was really good with the intermissions/replay system to cover any sort of delays in the stream. In addition, WasabiOne made a good 10 minute rule if the situation was pretty bad as far as server, crashes etc. delaying the game. I felt like that was a really good change.
As far as the "show matches" subject goes, RedDragon pretty much nailed it.
EDIT: Woops, hit post before finishing. Cont: Because of all the snipping, it looks like an attempt to cover up my words. That is certainly not what I want, I stand by all those comments, and in future no dev posts will ever be pulled off record on the forums. You guys should always be able to see and quote what has been said. I sincerely apologise to everyone that they are now unable to read those comments.
Now back to the drama!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your not a dev! As for thos comments anyone wanna read it here you go <a href="http://pastebin.com/RSsDEMcu" target="_blank">http://pastebin.com/RSsDEMcu</a> "the show must go on no matter what" meeeeeeeeeeeh
He is. Carry on!
Mainly i think people just need to relax and not get quite so uptight during the steam/cast, your dealing with a beta game/not formal/professional teams and tons of other factors that could/can be problematic, its surprising things have gone as smoothly as they had/have.
Relax, have fun, enjoy and promote the game, because honestly thats what these streams are about, nothing else.
If it is, are you kidding me? I can organize a tournament around a board game called Cosmic Encounter (fun game by the way!), at work, as a hobby and it would be a real tournament. All you need is several competitors that try to win over one another, with a prize at the end and hey presto, its a tournament.
And I enjoy putting up a good show for those who are interested. Im even flattered people wanna watch me play a computer game. And I like when I´m able to help promote the game by just playing it.
The only concern is when there are issues, we need to get some time to sort it out. For instance, when Tane joined in wasabicup, or when we had server issues in ENSL NC. In that particular situation, we should be more important than the viewers. Tane says "The tournament/league is always the authority". Sure, but if the other team is breaking the rules, it needs to be handled.
The debate about if we should call it showmatches or tournaments isnt that important (to me). But whatever you call it, if there are issues, it should be sorted out before you play the game . The "60 seconds or WE CUT STREAM" was just bad.
And I enjoy putting up a good show for those who are interested. Im even flattered people wanna watch me play a computer game. And I like when I´m able to help promote the game by just playing it.
The only concern is when there are issues, we need to get some time to sort it out. For instance, when Tane joined in wasabicup, or when we had server issues in ENSL NC. In that particular situation, we should be more important than the viewers. Tane says "The tournament/league is always the authority". Sure, but if the other team is breaking the rules, it needs to be handled.
The debate about if we should call it showmatches or tournaments isnt that important (to me). But whatever you call it, if there are issues, it should be sorted out before you play the game . The "60 seconds or WE CUT STREAM" was just bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is really what we're getting at I think. Honestly I don't think anyone really cares if we call them Tournaments or Show Matches, I think the point is just that because we were calling them Tournaments, some of us went into the games with a different set of expectations than others.
I think we set a dangerous precedent for viewers if we start treating "Tournaments" like show matches, because it becomes hard to gain credibility as an eSport if we don't meet gamers' expectations of what a professional eSport competition should be.
Honestly, call the events whatever you want, but I'm really just advocating that the organizers, and casters, should be more clear about what we as players should expect when participating.
As well, I think its fair to draw attention to how other eSports are organized and administrated, if only so our organizers can better understand what expectations come with the label of "tournament."
Its all just food for thought.
First off regardless of what comments were made by other casters; I re-iterate my position on the fact that LOCKLEARS original post was about the ENSL cup. Timing on the Wasabi Cup was agreed upon with no issues from any teams, 5 minutes between rounds and if a team needed it they could request up to an additional 5 minutes. Some of the gaps between matches was more than 10 minutes. The flow was beyond my expectation and I am thrilled with how things went. However, I do believe that these larger events can be spread over more time so that teams really only play two sets of matches per day. Also any future event hosted or in part planned with me will have a minimum two week notice to make sure individuals actually have time to schedule it in and give teams the chance to discuss and request changes to proposed rules.
Each event gets better, each one offers new insight and unique problems, but we have a amazing community and as long we communicate and work together we can make this even bigger and better as a result.
I am the first to admit my faults with some of the things that happened last weekend, I have spoken with most if not all the captains and I think we have some great stuff coming up. Blind is hosting an event next weekend and I hear Nxzl is doing one in Oct. I hope you'll all attend, I know I will.
It won't change. Any event happening on twitch.tv/naturalselection2 will be run as if it is a live show in a stadium, concert hall, or other time-sensitive venue. There will never be a situation in which teams are allowed to discuss and debate these problems when a match is due to start. Ever. If a team does something illegal, DQs / whatever else can happen off stream. Hell will have no wrath like me when a twitch.tv/naturalselection2 stream is put in limbo by an argument over tournament rules.
<!--quoteo(post=1979714:date=Sep 19 2012, 05:47 AM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 19 2012, 05:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979714"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly, call the events whatever you want, but I'm really just advocating that the organizers, and casters, should be more clear about what we as players should expect when participating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be completely clear: All teams playing on twitch.tv/naturalselection2 should expect a fast paced, high-pressure, zero-delay-tolerance experience. If you want a relaxed, chilled-out set of games, there is nothing wrong with that. I respect it fully. I certainly prefer to cast that way. But it will never happen on twitch.tv/naturalselection2.
In return for that efficiency, punctuality, and commitment, myself and everyone else here at UWE will deliver you a gleaming stage. You have all built something incredible. You have created a competitive scene that is the envy of large game publishers. You are creating spectacles that are turning heads in high places. We want to support where you have taken high-level NS2 play.
I will stop at nothing to put what you have created in front of audiences of tens of thousands. You will play for prizes you never thought possible, with production values that belie our amateur status, and experience stardom beyond that which indie-game players have ever seen. Professional, paid e-sports teams will watch you with a mixture of shock and awe. This I swear to you.
To be completely clear: All teams playing on twitch.tv/naturalselection2 should expect a fast paced, high-pressure, zero-delay-tolerance experience. If you want a relaxed, chilled-out set of games, there is nothing wrong with that. I respect it fully. I certainly prefer to cast that way. But it will never happen on twitch.tv/naturalselection2.
In return for that efficiency, punctuality, and commitment, myself and everyone else here at UWE will deliver you a gleaming stage. You have all built something incredible. You have created a competitive scene that is the envy of large game publishers. You are creating spectacles that are turning heads in high places. We want to support where you have taken high-level NS2 play.
I will stop at nothing to put what you have created in front of audiences of tens of thousands. You will play for prizes you never thought possible, with production values that belie our amateur status, and experience stardom beyond that which indie-game players have ever seen. Professional, paid e-sports teams will watch you with a mixture of shock and awe. This I swear to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well apart from the chest-beating (which is just a personal taste thing on my part really), I see nothing wrong with this..You elect to participate in something that have certain demands and requirements. So this still confuses me..whats the problem? Is it because these demands and requirements aren't clearly defined? or what?
Clearly everyone makes their own choice in terms of what kind of level they want to play at ...
To be completely clear: All teams playing on twitch.tv/naturalselection2 should expect a fast paced, high-pressure, zero-delay-tolerance experience. If you want a relaxed, chilled-out set of games, there is nothing wrong with that. I respect it fully. I certainly prefer to cast that way. But it will never happen on twitch.tv/naturalselection2.
In return for that efficiency, punctuality, and commitment, myself and everyone else here at UWE will deliver you a gleaming stage. You have all built something incredible. You have created a competitive scene that is the envy of large game publishers. You are creating spectacles that are turning heads in high places. We want to support where you have taken high-level NS2 play.
I will stop at nothing to put what you have created in front of audiences of tens of thousands. You will play for prizes you never thought possible, with production values that belie our amateur status, and experience stardom beyond that which indie-game players have ever seen. Professional, paid e-sports teams will watch you with a mixture of shock and awe. This I swear to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just don't think this is a realistic expectation for an internet tournament. Complications happen, and by putting your foot down on them like this you compromise the result of the games. Why don't you guys just do a delayed broadcast?
And it might be petty of me to point this out, but the vast majority of the delays and hangups from the spectator perspective were a result of the stream itself... Having to take the stream down to restart during a game is a hundred times worse than having to fill some dead air while the jury is out about something.
I think you should consider giving teams the break between matches at least; we literally played 6 hours straight non-stop with max break being something like 15minutes, it was just not really that fun anymore. I don't mind doing that so much though if there'll be some kind of reward at the end but just fighting for fame isn't enough to keep me doing that kind of stuff. Once we get into that stage that you were speaking in your last chapter I'll be more than happy to play 6 hours or even more straight but you can really expect the last games not to be that great.
I think we could probably work on a system that gives teams time to have at least some kind of breaks or just reduce the games played in a day by playing one or two matches at a time from round 1 and the others would wait for the first set of matches to be finished and another set of matches would start after that which would lead teams getting more than enough break time, the downside of this is that it'll take more time to be get the cup finished but I don't think will this really be a problem, just make it last two or even three days, I wouldn't really mind about that kind of weekend cups, actually I think it'd be perfect and the quality of games when teams aren't completely exhausted will be 100x times better and everyone really wants to fight 'till the bitter end and there won't even need to be any delays in the stream.
All in all, I think this can be solved so both sides are happy, just needs a more thought from the organizers, and I really hope this'll be thought thoroughly when a cup with a prizes will occur and we won't be just thrown a cup with schedule where some, or most of the teams need to play 5-6hours straight.
To be completely clear: All teams playing on twitch.tv/naturalselection2 should expect a fast paced, high-pressure, zero-delay-tolerance experience. If you want a relaxed, chilled-out set of games, there is nothing wrong with that. I respect it fully. I certainly prefer to cast that way. But it will never happen on twitch.tv/naturalselection2.
In return for that efficiency, punctuality, and commitment, myself and everyone else here at UWE will deliver you a gleaming stage. You have all built something incredible. You have created a competitive scene that is the envy of large game publishers. You are creating spectacles that are turning heads in high places. We want to support where you have taken high-level NS2 play.
I will stop at nothing to put what you have created in front of audiences of tens of thousands. You will play for prizes you never thought possible, with production values that belie our amateur status, and experience stardom beyond that which indie-game players have ever seen. Professional, paid e-sports teams will watch you with a mixture of shock and awe. This I swear to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
as a regular viewer of competitve NS2 i want to thank you for standing up for us viewers, because we are voiceless in such situations.
for the competetive teams: i love you all guys, but see it as if you where standing on a stage or in the middle of a race. if issues arise there has to be a fast decision and the show or race must go on. in depth discussions where everyone is heard can only happen off stream. then there may be rulechanges, penaltys and all that.
or even simpler: imagine your in the restroom and outside are 800people, just waiting for you to finish....
Edit: because thats exactly what is happening at that moment.
To be completely clear: All teams playing on twitch.tv/naturalselection2 should expect a fast paced, high-pressure, zero-delay-tolerance experience. If you want a relaxed, chilled-out set of games, there is nothing wrong with that. I respect it fully. I certainly prefer to cast that way. But it will never happen on twitch.tv/naturalselection2.
In return for that efficiency, punctuality, and commitment, myself and everyone else here at UWE will deliver you a gleaming stage. You have all built something incredible. You have created a competitive scene that is the envy of large game publishers. You are creating spectacles that are turning heads in high places. We want to support where you have taken high-level NS2 play.
I will stop at nothing to put what you have created in front of audiences of tens of thousands. You will play for prizes you never thought possible, with production values that belie our amateur status, and experience stardom beyond that which indie-game players have ever seen. Professional, paid e-sports teams will watch you with a mixture of shock and awe. This I swear to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what we were talking about Hugh, everything you've said here, is fantastic. What you want is to create a spectacle, and I think most of us here are 100% on board with that idea!
The issue was really just the confusion of terms for the ENSL night cup, and some (hopefully) helpful feed back for Wasabi's tournament, which we all enjoyed.
This is all well and good, but I do want to bring up a point I think you should consider. The ENSL Cup, so far as I know, was not being hosted by NS2HD. Now, if I'm wrong about that, then disregard what follows. You were casting a tournament, something that would have taken place regardless of you're being there to live stream it. Now, I think we were all blown away by how many people turned out for that event, but I think a lot of our frustration (at least I know from the side of Nexzil) was that suddenly you started using your influence as a caster to pressure the organizers, and players, into playing to the 'show' you wanted to create.
I'm glad we're being clear here, because that's honestly what we all need to make sure no one is being misunderstood. So to be clear, you need to <i>NOT</i> do that ever again.
When we sign up to be part of the stage you want to set up for us, then this is perfectly fine, because we'll all be well aware of what it is we're trying to do and what the expectations are for us as players.
I hope you take my being frank as nothing more than an earnest desire to help you create the stage you're looking for. But that ENSL Cup was not your stage. And when you start trying to direct the course of an event you're not hosting, it really can undermine your reputation as a caster, and event organizer.
I think its great that you're very enthusiastic about all this Hugh. I really hope you let us, the players, help you make it better.
for the competetive teams: i love you all guys, but see it as if you where standing on a stage or in the middle of a race. if issues arise there has to be a fast decision and the show or race must go on. in depth discussions where everyone is heard can only happen off stream. then there may be rulechanges, penaltys and all that.
or even simpler: imagine your in the restroom and outside are 800people, just waiting for you to finish....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont think any of us have a problem with attempting to meet these sorts of expectations. But recognize that, from a professional Sports stand point, not even eSports, just Sports in general, Casters have no control or influence over the outcome or length of a game, nor should they.
TV Casters don't try to rush referees when they're debating a play during the Superbowl.
But you're point is well taken, and it behooves us all as competitive players to not disregard the desires of those spectators. Just understand that there has to be a balance, and it should be made with the reasonable intentions to provide the best possible entertainment value without compromising the integrity of the game.
That's all.