I dont think there needs to be rules for both casters and players, it is each admin's responsibility to choose their casters and or streams. The streams dont drive the games, but will indeed at least on the official channel strictly stick to them. Whats most important as I have said numerous times is TIMING! as long as timing is right and breaks are agreed too I see no reason for any of this drama. Again I say SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much was learned from this weekend and those who have been constructive in their critiques will help to move forward and make even bigger and better events in the future.
Hugh, I like what you're attempting to do for us. I know the opportunities that arrive from having a lot of people watching the tube are great :) But if you keep this attitude of "well then you won't be on my twitch stream" You're going to run out of people to actually put on your stream in the competitive scene.
You have to realize that, you might be one of the best casters out there at the moment for getting 1k+ viewers but we are the only teams right now. So you have to put up with our little nitpicks or you won't have anyone to stream. We have to work together on this, holding to your idea that you're basically the head honcho because you have equipment to stream is misplaced. You have say, but not 100% rule over us. If you want us, work with us. We've shown that we want you, we just have some stuff we want to work on.
You will be casting public games for the rest of your time casting this game in it's lifespan and you will remain at a low(er) viewer count.
Because let's face it, you aren't a professional shooter (one thing potentially needed for high view count) public play isn't "that" exciting, and you likely won't get that much support outside of a few to just cast public games all day.
You have to realize there needs to be compromise on certain things here.
<!--quoteo(post=1980324:date=Sep 19 2012, 10:57 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 19 2012, 10:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980324"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Many mods and many people are requesting this thread be closed, but I'm going to keep it open for now because this is a very, very important argument to be having. I am convinced that this week will go down as one of the most important in the history of competitive NS2. Now, to continue my responses:
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>"Players should stay away from the official stream. If Hugh doesn't want to put slow-moving tournaments up there, whatever. We don't get anything out of it anyway."</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This argument, being forwarded by many posters who I have since discovered <i>do not even play on competitive teams</i>, is fatally flawed. The entire, total reason I am laying down high-speed ground rules for being on twitch.tv/naturalselection2, is that you guys will have opportunities there you won't get anywhere else.
When I say 'you guys,' I mean competitive players.
Right now, you play for glory. Well what if that changed? What if you had regular opportunities to play for something more than glory? Well that's what I'm aiming for. I want to give you guys the epic stage, on which much more than just 'glory' can happen.
Obviously I can't give any more details until these things are nailed down. But players that aren't interested in 'more than glory' are welcome to sit on their high horses and look down on those who want to be part of something big.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>"The casters have no authority to tell us what to do."</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Sure. Whatever. You don't have to play by fast paced rules - just don't play on twitch.tv/naturalselection2. Which means, don't play for the 'more than glory' which I'm organising for you. When you play for 'more than glory,' a two-way street happens: You give up your flexibility, and in return you get amazing opportunities.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>"Hugh is using us to promote the game"</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This ridiculous. If it were true, I would just pay a bunch of professional eSports teams to play show-matches on the front page of Twitch. It would certainly be easier, and cheaper, than what I'm trying to produce for you instead. I'm sure we'd make some soulless marketing-dollar-driven sales and UWE would lose a bit of what makes it a different type of developer.
No - This is about supporting the organic, real growth of a wonderful, inspiring competitive community: And giving you guys the opportunity to play, win, lose, scream, cry, and smile on a much bigger stage, with much higher stakes.
There are many that will want to be part of this, to play for something more than glory. Of course, there are many that don't - That can't stand the idea that they might have to 'keep a stream rolling.' Your opinion is valid, your desires are valid. But don't get in the way of the people that do want this stage, that do want these opportunities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to wonder if you know what you are implying when you say playing for more than glory. You are implying prizes, which opens a massive can of worms: read on.
First, you need sponsors to host a prize tourney unless you are going to support it yourself. Sponsors sponsor game tournaments that are huge, they need to promote to the maximum fanbase. NS2 is not halo, its not starcraft, it never will be. It never will draw every 13 year old gamer who the sponsors target. Therefore you won't get big sponsors etc it won't work.
Second, any prize tournament requires lan play for obvious reasons. This requires a venue, pcs, etc. Your proverbial big stage. If you host a prize tourny online your not very proffesional and will be fraught with qq etc. So your going to fund a lan tourney with 1k viewers?
Third, and most importantly hugh you act like your stream is the only hope for competitive gaming for ns2 when its not. Competitive games stem from games that have HUGE fan bases, something ns2 won't have compared to cod, sc, halo etc. Players must love the GAME. You can promote it, and you do it well, but you won't solely drive the competitive scene. You act like a proffessional who knows the bizz but you ask for server pw's during the stream?
I've seen you hold back rounds for interviews (to the annoyance of teams) and then get mad when players slow the stream down. Are you really serious with these comments you make?
Unless you have a lan setup then never mention prize tournaments. Online games are going to ALWAYS have disputes, you have to realize this.
I am frankly shocked that UWE hasn't reigned you in, you are alienating players and getting a reputation.
Its far from "proffessional" which apparently your stream is (according to you) to come out on a forum and alienate, and even insult customers.
Disclaimer: I don't represent my team, we may not have entered a tourny but we are building to it.
Ps I suggest you listen to people who aren't on teams who post here as they are the ones who WATCH your stream.
I don't have to repeat the people saying players come first, but I should note even cash tournaments run by casters often use independent admins as to respect the understanding that casters shouldn't have a hand in the play. It's not hard to create filler content, esports casters do it all the time and always work around the players. Interviews, predictions, personal insight into the story of players/teams, map fly through and analysis with game intro for new people, frag videos, replays with in depth analysis and focus on parts that were missed in the past. The last two aren't available yet but players shouldn't be blamed for that. There also needs to be better casting than play-by-play and most people casting other than blind haven't displayed an ability to analyze the gameplay. Esports games with two commentators are almost always done play-by-play for one person and analysis for the other that has experience with high level competitive play.
You can't blame numbers losses on the players. Many casters take 15+minute breaks with nothing but ads and music/brackets and don't lose viewers. It really just comes out of people not being interested in watching the rest of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1980324:date=Sep 19 2012, 01:57 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 19 2012, 01:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980324"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>"Hugh is using us to promote the game"</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This ridiculous. If it were true, I would just pay a bunch of professional eSports teams to play show-matches on the front page of Twitch. It would certainly be easier, and cheaper, than what I'm trying to produce for you instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are seriously underestimating how pro players would react to an underdeveloped, imbalanced, and casual geared game like ns2. You should see the public comments players have made about games like shootmania (which is considered a much better game compeitively than ns2) after getting free flights and getting large checks from developers and tournaments. That game sits completely empty in the US by the way.
Also, a large amount of the old competitive NS1 playerbase are professional fps players or are of equal skill. NS is a big name in amongst competitive team fps players because it was relatively small but the training ground for very disproportionately large amount of players on the best teams in games like tf2, l4d, and cs. Most of these players are really disappointed in NS2 competitive play and express that to thousands of players that look to them for their opinion. The ones that have stuck around and continue to play NS2 in hopes of things getting better and the game getting big are a huge asset for you. So saying that you could hire pro players (and somehow it would be cheaper?) to promote it shows a poor understanding of the scene.
I think, that we should allow the tournament organizers / officials, to make the call on the night when time is a factor.
We also need to work out a fair appeals process, where these official calls can be dealt with after the event. Arent there similar processes to this in live sporting events?
Assuming that such an appeals process was fair, id be happy for it to be called whatever way the organizers wanted to on the night.
also...
<b>If </b> sucessive events were runing every x weeks, and a rematch was deemed necessary after the appeal, it could be played as the headlineing match of the next tournament thats streamed, which would be a nice way to kick things off.
not a bad idea Hunter... not bad at all... of course you would need teams to respect the admin's decision and move on... so that may be the hitching point.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
I'm not sure what all this hate against Hugh is about, but both NS2 and competitive NS2 would be a fraction of itself without Hugh and his tireless casting via NS2HD. He's also done a fantastic job of showcasing competitive play without disrupting it. I've seen him cast multiple matches until he was hoarse. I don't know many casters with that kind of dedication.
Also, as a competitive player I prefer shorter matches/tournament formats whether they are casted or not. Competitive NS2 should be about skill, not gaming endurance. Even during the Wasabicup, which was very short by tournament standards, the teams were getting tired, with Team Wasabi, Archaea, PokeMasters, and Duplex showing visible exhaustion towards the end. So much so that the final was postponed till the next day.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1980506:date=Sep 19 2012, 05:31 PM:name=Flipper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flipper @ Sep 19 2012, 05:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lol its his job, he better be dedicated, he gets paid unlike others.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll note that the 'cast-till-hoarse' time that I saw was before he was part of UWE/getting paid for it. He's also been casting competitive NS2 for <a href="http://youtu.be/XtLhOZsJxO0" target="_blank">over a year now</a> and has been nothing but a positive influence on both developing and promoting competitive NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1979264:date=Sep 17 2012, 04:22 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Sep 17 2012, 04:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979264"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... be understanding for delays not the otherway around. I'm very well aware that there are probably hundreds of watchers keenly waiting on some action, but hurrying the players will only lessen the quality of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If 2 teams agree on playing at a certain time....they have to be ready then so everyone can start. This is why i HATE the current esports scene..whether its CS ... or whatever. There is ALWAYS a delay ...no matter what. Always. Thats freaking amateurish.
It's eSPORTS. Having delays is the most annoying thing ever....esp. in sports. Match is set to 18:00 ? Both teams have to be ready then. point.
I hope that we'll get esports to a more professional level at some point....geezus.....
Just like the mouz vs. winfakt CS:GO match the other day......massive delay, cuz one of the players had to take his dog for a walk. Nice. fking kidding me?!
If you wanna play amateurish, do so. If you want to be taken serious: behave like that.
I watched a game of fotboll the other day. It had a HUGE paus between the rounds, almost like 20 minutes. They called it "halftime". Most surprisingly was that like everyone who was watching came back after the paus and watched the rest of the game. Very odd. I wonder if the production value would have been higher if the referee forced them to play 45 more minutes so we didnt have to wait for them to like.. rest.. and stuff?
I also watched another game the other day, in another non e-sport called "ice hockey". They had some issues during the game, and the referee PAUSED the game to solve the issue before they continued, and all the viewers had to like.. wait. I was like "lol". Perhaps it would have been better if the commentators and cameramen would have have screamed "60 SECONDS OR WE CUT TV". Strangely enough they didnt, they actually let them argue.
Those were probably the strangest days in my life. Thank god im back to e-sports.
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
edited September 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1980660:date=Sep 20 2012, 11:10 AM:name=Scrajm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scrajm @ Sep 20 2012, 11:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980660"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also watched another game the other day, in another non e-sport called "ice hockey". They had some issues during the game, and the referee PAUSED the game to solve the issue before they continued, and all the viewers had to like.. wait. I was like "lol". Perhaps it would have been better if the commentators and cameramen would have have screamed "60 SECONDS OR WE CUT TV". Strangely enough they didnt, they actually let them argue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually think most of the people go to the ice hockey arena just to see all the drama and fights better and so they don't have to watch so much of the filler content, replays and advertisements. Of course most of the drama is shown in the TV too because that's probably more emotionally interesting to the viewers than the players hitting the puck with sticks.
Thus I don't really see a reason why the casters can't cast the drama and rule dispute parts of the ns2 cups too. They're often quite interesting i think. If it's some boring stuff like server problems then it's tough luck. But server issues in the past have was proven that boring problems can be turned into pretty entertaining drama too.
I agree with taking a hard line with timing but obviously at this point the issue is the the manner in which an official UWE employee is behaving. Treading all over the jurisdiction of what amounts to a group of volunteers promoting your game for free and accusing them of being the offensive ones is a bit bloody rich.
I understand you have an amazing passion for what you do, Hugh, and I respect the content you provide greatly but keep your ego in check and (more importantly) pick up an experienced team FPS pro/organiser to get some perspective on your actions. I say this because just from the manner in which you've acted within this thread you've a pretty big blind spot for this kind of thing. I'm sure Fana would love to do it!!!
oldassgamersJoin Date: 2011-02-02Member: 80033Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited September 2012
I'll just make a quick comment about this hot topic. Hopefully I can cool it down just a little bit. I've notice some posts being deleted from hugh and I read the deleted post in <a href="http://pastebin.com/RSsDEMcu" target="_blank">http://pastebin.com/RSsDEMcu</a> .
I must say as a server provider perspective. My costumers can sometime be a little bit frustrated about me not provider them good performance from time to time. This problem can be cause by many issues. But I must respect the costumers. Even if a costumers are being rude to me.
Now back to this topic. Even if you're one of the greatest casters in the world. People will still yet complain. A complain is based on their own opinion. As long as the comments are not illegal, you must respect their thoughts.
You know how many times? People scream at my face, call me useless or ugly when I'm standng in the club as a security guard. I've lose the count... People throwing bottles to my face, trying to punch me just because I rejected them to the club.
Point is, please don't take it personal. If people are being rude. What I do, is that I try to explain and if they don't listen then I'll just be quiet and ignore them.
What I find funny here is that everyone keeps bringing up the 60 seconds or your cut off reference, but uh that was during the ENSL Night Cup, there was none of that during my Cup. I gave the teams 5 minutes between rounds and up to 10 if they requested it. We then switched over to the stream that blind and ryne were on to give the top bracket teams time to relax as well... We all realize there are far more things we can do to help with timing and filler, but for the love of Pete, will everyone just start to focus a little and offer some constructive critiques as to what they would like instead of saying how mad some comments made you? It happened it was dumb on all sides, its over lets move on!
I am sure this post as most of my others in this thread will be ignored, lord forbid we all be mature and find a way to come out of all this with some positive results :P
<!--quoteo(post=1980827:date=Sep 20 2012, 06:44 PM:name=WasabiOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WasabiOne @ Sep 20 2012, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980827"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I find funny here is that everyone keeps bringing up the 60 seconds or your cut off reference, but uh that was during the ENSL Night Cup, there was none of that during my Cup. I gave the teams 5 minutes between rounds and up to 10 if they requested it. We then switched over to the stream that blink and ryne were on to give the top bracket teams time to relax as well... We all realize there are far more things we can do to help with timing and filler, but for the love of Pete, will everyone just start to focus a little and offer some constructive critiques as to what they would like instead of saying how mad some comments made you? It happened it was dumb on all sides, its over lets move on!
I am sure this post as most of my others in this thread will be ignored, lord forbid we all be mature and find a way to come out of all this with some positive results :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think people are upset because in the ensl tournament Hugh was out of line when he took over the admins job. It was not declared before hand that disputes needed to be solved in 5-10 minutes for example.
In your cup I think everything went smooth, the only problem was when you/we didnt know if tane was on the rooster. But that got settled fast so no complaints from me there.
I think Hughs tone in his posts caused all the drama.
In my opinion Casters should speak with admins and the admins deal with the players. The rules should be very clear on whats allowed and whats not.
What I find funny is that instead of responding to the valid points many people hsave made Hugh just throws up a picture of some i7's. Do you even read it or are you in a magical land where everyone agrees with you etc?
<!--quoteo(post=1980772:date=Sep 20 2012, 04:46 PM:name=oldassgamers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oldassgamers @ Sep 20 2012, 04:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll just make a quick comment about this hot topic. Hopefully I can cool it down just a little bit. I've notice some posts being deleted from hugh and I read the deleted post in "i am not sure this link is ok to be posted".
I must say as a server provider perspective. My costumers can sometime be a little bit frustrated about me not provider them good performance from time to time. This problem can be cause by many issues. But I must respect the costumers. Even if a costumers are being rude to me.
Now back to this topic. Even if you're one of the greatest casters in the world. People will still yet complain. A complain is based on their own opinion. As long as the comments are not illegal, you must respect their thoughts.
You know how many times? People scream at my face, call me useless or ugly when I'm standng in the club as a security guard. I've lose the count... People throwing bottles to my face, trying to punch me just because I rejected them to the club.
Point is, please don't take it personal. If people are being rude. What I do, is that I try to explain and if they don't listen then I'll just be quiet and ignore them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> as i now had a chance to read the deleted posts i see a little clearer. i now realice how hurt hugh realy has been by some of the comments. after all his work for the competetive community, all this years(he did this long before UWE hired him, you know.) i see how these attacks realy sting.
i personaly dont have the selfdiscipline you are describing oldassgamers, but i guess it is something you get over time. i guess hugh allready took a step back and talked it through with wasabi, zeikko or someone and we will see more awsome casts in the future.
people just dont realice that words can hurt.
anyway, the wasabicup was a great learning experiance as will the next cup be, rules will be formed and the show will go on.
<!--quoteo(post=1980827:date=Sep 20 2012, 11:44 AM:name=WasabiOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WasabiOne @ Sep 20 2012, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980827"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We then switched over to the stream that blink and ryne were on to give the top bracket teams time to relax as well...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1980827:date=Sep 20 2012, 06:44 PM:name=WasabiOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WasabiOne @ Sep 20 2012, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980827"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I find funny here is that everyone keeps bringing up the 60 seconds or your cut off reference, but uh that was during the ENSL Night Cup, there was none of that during my Cup. I gave the teams 5 minutes between rounds and up to 10 if they requested it. We then switched over to the stream that blink and ryne were on to give the top bracket teams time to relax as well... We all realize there are far more things we can do to help with timing and filler, but for the love of Pete, will everyone just start to focus a little and offer some constructive critiques as to what they would like instead of saying how mad some comments made you? It happened it was dumb on all sides, its over lets move on!
I am sure this post as most of my others in this thread will be ignored, lord forbid we all be mature and find a way to come out of all this with some positive results :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> when things get emotional, reason can only stand aside and watch the action.
<!--quoteo(post=1980879:date=Sep 20 2012, 07:49 PM:name=Flipper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flipper @ Sep 20 2012, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980879"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I find funny is that instead of responding to the valid points many people hsave made Hugh just throws up a picture of some i7's. Do you even read it or are you in a magical land where everyone agrees with you etc?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> actually its a valid taktic to step out of an argument and after some time distort it with something connected yet irrelevant, preferebly something funny. usualy a little after that move, some constructive recaping can happens.
<!--quoteo(post=1980660:date=Sep 20 2012, 05:10 AM:name=Scrajm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scrajm @ Sep 20 2012, 05:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980660"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I watched a game of fotboll the other day. It had a HUGE paus between the rounds, almost like 20 minutes. They called it "halftime". Most surprisingly was that like everyone who was watching came back after the paus and watched the rest of the game. Very odd. I wonder if the production value would have been higher if the referee forced them to play 45 more minutes so we didnt have to wait for them to like.. rest.. and stuff?
I also watched another game the other day, in another non e-sport called "ice hockey". They had some issues during the game, and the referee PAUSED the game to solve the issue before they continued, and all the viewers had to like.. wait. I was like "lol". Perhaps it would have been better if the commentators and cameramen would have have screamed "60 SECONDS OR WE CUT TV". Strangely enough they didnt, they actually let them argue.
Those were probably the strangest days in my life. Thank god im back to e-sports.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seriously. When they put the last dreamhack's finals on tv they told the tv station that they must treat esports like normal sports and they can't have a hand in the play at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1980506:date=Sep 20 2012, 10:31 AM:name=Flipper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flipper @ Sep 20 2012, 10:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lol its his job, he better be dedicated, he gets paid unlike others.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is laughable and it is my dream that one day it could be true, not just for me, but for many many people.
<!--quoteo(post=1980879:date=Sep 21 2012, 03:49 AM:name=Flipper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flipper @ Sep 21 2012, 03:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980879"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I find funny is that instead of responding to the valid points many people hsave made Hugh just throws up a picture of some i7's. Do you even read it or are you in a magical land where everyone agrees with you etc?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's up Flipper? Am I not allowed a sense of humour either? Go on, tear me down a little more. May all those others with lovely things to say about me revel in your boundless wit.
---
This thread has been place for people to ventilate, no doubt needed. I've taken the time to read all of the responses. Anyone that wishes to continue a serious discussion about this stuff can find me in the usual places. I very much appreciate the time people took to email, skype, call, and IM me about all this. I look forward to revealing exciting news over the coming weeks.
<!--quoteo(post=1980772:date=Sep 20 2012, 07:46 AM:name=oldassgamers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oldassgamers @ Sep 20 2012, 07:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll just make a quick comment about this hot topic. Hopefully I can cool it down just a little bit. I've notice some posts being deleted from hugh and I read the deleted post in <a href="http://pastebin.com/RSsDEMcu" target="_blank">http://pastebin.com/RSsDEMcu</a> .<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I want to say is Hugh did NOT delete any posts. This was totally a mistake by the moderation team and I take responsibility for it. I am glad someone still had the posts as our old, crappy forums can't undo stuff.
Comments
I dont think there needs to be rules for both casters and players, it is each admin's responsibility to choose their casters and or streams. The streams dont drive the games, but will indeed at least on the official channel strictly stick to them. Whats most important as I have said numerous times is TIMING! as long as timing is right and breaks are agreed too I see no reason for any of this drama. Again I say SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much was learned from this weekend and those who have been constructive in their critiques will help to move forward and make even bigger and better events in the future.
You have to realize that, you might be one of the best casters out there at the moment for getting 1k+ viewers but we are the only teams right now. So you have to put up with our little nitpicks or you won't have anyone to stream. We have to work together on this, holding to your idea that you're basically the head honcho because you have equipment to stream is misplaced. You have say, but not 100% rule over us. If you want us, work with us. We've shown that we want you, we just have some stuff we want to work on.
You will be casting public games for the rest of your time casting this game in it's lifespan and you will remain at a low(er) viewer count.
Because let's face it, you aren't a professional shooter (one thing potentially needed for high view count) public play isn't "that" exciting, and you likely won't get that much support outside of a few to just cast public games all day.
You have to realize there needs to be compromise on certain things here.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>"Players should stay away from the official stream. If Hugh doesn't want to put slow-moving tournaments up there, whatever. We don't get anything out of it anyway."</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This argument, being forwarded by many posters who I have since discovered <i>do not even play on competitive teams</i>, is fatally flawed. The entire, total reason I am laying down high-speed ground rules for being on twitch.tv/naturalselection2, is that you guys will have opportunities there you won't get anywhere else.
When I say 'you guys,' I mean competitive players.
Right now, you play for glory. Well what if that changed? What if you had regular opportunities to play for something more than glory? Well that's what I'm aiming for. I want to give you guys the epic stage, on which much more than just 'glory' can happen.
Obviously I can't give any more details until these things are nailed down. But players that aren't interested in 'more than glory' are welcome to sit on their high horses and look down on those who want to be part of something big.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>"The casters have no authority to tell us what to do."</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Sure. Whatever. You don't have to play by fast paced rules - just don't play on twitch.tv/naturalselection2. Which means, don't play for the 'more than glory' which I'm organising for you. When you play for 'more than glory,' a two-way street happens: You give up your flexibility, and in return you get amazing opportunities.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>"Hugh is using us to promote the game"</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This ridiculous. If it were true, I would just pay a bunch of professional eSports teams to play show-matches on the front page of Twitch. It would certainly be easier, and cheaper, than what I'm trying to produce for you instead. I'm sure we'd make some soulless marketing-dollar-driven sales and UWE would lose a bit of what makes it a different type of developer.
No - This is about supporting the organic, real growth of a wonderful, inspiring competitive community: And giving you guys the opportunity to play, win, lose, scream, cry, and smile on a much bigger stage, with much higher stakes.
There are many that will want to be part of this, to play for something more than glory. Of course, there are many that don't - That can't stand the idea that they might have to 'keep a stream rolling.' Your opinion is valid, your desires are valid. But don't get in the way of the people that do want this stage, that do want these opportunities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to wonder if you know what you are implying when you say playing for more than glory. You are implying prizes, which opens a massive can of worms: read on.
First, you need sponsors to host a prize tourney unless you are going to support it yourself. Sponsors sponsor game tournaments that are huge, they need to promote to the maximum fanbase. NS2 is not halo, its not starcraft, it never will be. It never will draw every 13 year old gamer who the sponsors target. Therefore you won't get big sponsors etc it won't work.
Second, any prize tournament requires lan play for obvious reasons. This requires a venue, pcs, etc. Your proverbial big stage. If you host a prize tourny online your not very proffesional and will be fraught with qq etc. So your going to fund a lan tourney with 1k viewers?
Third, and most importantly hugh you act like your stream is the only hope for competitive gaming for ns2 when its not. Competitive games stem from games that have HUGE fan bases, something ns2 won't have compared to cod, sc, halo etc. Players must love the GAME. You can promote it, and you do it well, but you won't solely drive the competitive scene. You act like a proffessional who knows the bizz but you ask for server pw's during the stream?
I've seen you hold back rounds for interviews (to the annoyance of teams) and then get mad when players slow the stream down. Are you really serious with these comments you make?
Unless you have a lan setup then never mention prize tournaments. Online games are going to ALWAYS have disputes, you have to realize this.
I am frankly shocked that UWE hasn't reigned you in, you are alienating players and getting a reputation.
Its far from "proffessional" which apparently your stream is (according to you) to come out on a forum and alienate, and even insult customers.
Disclaimer: I don't represent my team, we may not have entered a tourny but we are building to it.
Ps I suggest you listen to people who aren't on teams who post here as they are the ones who WATCH your stream.
You can't blame numbers losses on the players. Many casters take 15+minute breaks with nothing but ads and music/brackets and don't lose viewers. It really just comes out of people not being interested in watching the rest of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1980324:date=Sep 19 2012, 01:57 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 19 2012, 01:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980324"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>"Hugh is using us to promote the game"</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This ridiculous. If it were true, I would just pay a bunch of professional eSports teams to play show-matches on the front page of Twitch. It would certainly be easier, and cheaper, than what I'm trying to produce for you instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are seriously underestimating how pro players would react to an underdeveloped, imbalanced, and casual geared game like ns2. You should see the public comments players have made about games like shootmania (which is considered a much better game compeitively than ns2) after getting free flights and getting large checks from developers and tournaments. That game sits completely empty in the US by the way.
Also, a large amount of the old competitive NS1 playerbase are professional fps players or are of equal skill. NS is a big name in amongst competitive team fps players because it was relatively small but the training ground for very disproportionately large amount of players on the best teams in games like tf2, l4d, and cs. Most of these players are really disappointed in NS2 competitive play and express that to thousands of players that look to them for their opinion. The ones that have stuck around and continue to play NS2 in hopes of things getting better and the game getting big are a huge asset for you. So saying that you could hire pro players (and somehow it would be cheaper?) to promote it shows a poor understanding of the scene.
We also need to work out a fair appeals process, where these official calls can be dealt with after the event. Arent there similar processes to this in live sporting events?
Assuming that such an appeals process was fair, id be happy for it to be called whatever way the organizers wanted to on the night.
also...
<b>If </b> sucessive events were runing every x weeks, and a rematch was deemed necessary after the appeal, it could be played as the headlineing match of the next tournament thats streamed, which would be a nice way to kick things off.
I just want to point one thing out, reading some of your posts here made me think "screw Hugh and the official stream". I will not be the only one...
Keep your attitude in check.
Also, as a competitive player I prefer shorter matches/tournament formats whether they are casted or not. Competitive NS2 should be about skill, not gaming endurance. Even during the Wasabicup, which was very short by tournament standards, the teams were getting tired, with Team Wasabi, Archaea, PokeMasters, and Duplex showing visible exhaustion towards the end. So much so that the final was postponed till the next day.
Lol its his job, he better be dedicated, he gets paid unlike others.
I'll note that the 'cast-till-hoarse' time that I saw was before he was part of UWE/getting paid for it. He's also been casting competitive NS2 for <a href="http://youtu.be/XtLhOZsJxO0" target="_blank">over a year now</a> and has been nothing but a positive influence on both developing and promoting competitive NS2.
If 2 teams agree on playing at a certain time....they have to be ready then so everyone can start. This is why i HATE the current esports scene..whether its CS ... or whatever. There is ALWAYS a delay ...no matter what. Always. Thats freaking amateurish.
It's eSPORTS. Having delays is the most annoying thing ever....esp. in sports. Match is set to 18:00 ? Both teams have to be ready then. point.
I hope that we'll get esports to a more professional level at some point....geezus.....
Just like the mouz vs. winfakt CS:GO match the other day......massive delay, cuz one of the players had to take his dog for a walk. Nice. fking kidding me?!
If you wanna play amateurish, do so. If you want to be taken serious: behave like that.
/rant
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/SM1xr.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Also, I am so excited right now. The next few weeks is going to be bloody fantastic re comp play.
I also watched another game the other day, in another non e-sport called "ice hockey". They had some issues during the game, and the referee PAUSED the game to solve the issue before they continued, and all the viewers had to like.. wait. I was like "lol". Perhaps it would have been better if the commentators and cameramen would have have screamed "60 SECONDS OR WE CUT TV". Strangely enough they didnt, they actually let them argue.
Those were probably the strangest days in my life. Thank god im back to e-sports.
I actually think most of the people go to the ice hockey arena just to see all the drama and fights better and so they don't have to watch so much of the filler content, replays and advertisements. Of course most of the drama is shown in the TV too because that's probably more emotionally interesting to the viewers than the players hitting the puck with sticks.
Thus I don't really see a reason why the casters can't cast the drama and rule dispute parts of the ns2 cups too. They're often quite interesting i think. If it's some boring stuff like server problems then it's tough luck. But server issues in the past have was proven that boring problems can be turned into pretty entertaining drama too.
I agree with taking a hard line with timing but obviously at this point the issue is the the manner in which an official UWE employee is behaving. Treading all over the jurisdiction of what amounts to a group of volunteers promoting your game for free and accusing them of being the offensive ones is a bit bloody rich.
I understand you have an amazing passion for what you do, Hugh, and I respect the content you provide greatly but keep your ego in check and (more importantly) pick up an experienced team FPS pro/organiser to get some perspective on your actions. I say this because just from the manner in which you've acted within this thread you've a pretty big blind spot for this kind of thing. I'm sure Fana would love to do it!!!
I must say as a server provider perspective. My costumers can sometime be a little bit frustrated about me not provider them good performance from time to time. This problem can be cause by many issues. But I must respect the costumers. Even if a costumers are being rude to me.
Now back to this topic. Even if you're one of the greatest casters in the world. People will still yet complain. A complain is based on their own opinion. As long as the comments are not illegal, you must respect their thoughts.
You know how many times? People scream at my face, call me useless or ugly when I'm standng in the club as a security guard. I've lose the count... People throwing bottles to my face, trying to punch me just because I rejected them to the club.
Point is, please don't take it personal. If people are being rude. What I do, is that I try to explain and if they don't listen then I'll just be quiet and ignore them.
I am sure this post as most of my others in this thread will be ignored, lord forbid we all be mature and find a way to come out of all this with some positive results :P
I am sure this post as most of my others in this thread will be ignored, lord forbid we all be mature and find a way to come out of all this with some positive results :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think people are upset because in the ensl tournament Hugh was out of line when he took over the admins job.
It was not declared before hand that disputes needed to be solved in 5-10 minutes for example.
In your cup I think everything went smooth, the only problem was when you/we didnt know if tane was on the rooster. But that got settled fast so no complaints from me there.
I think Hughs tone in his posts caused all the drama.
In my opinion Casters should speak with admins and the admins deal with the players. The rules should be very clear on whats allowed and whats not.
I must say as a server provider perspective. My costumers can sometime be a little bit frustrated about me not provider them good performance from time to time. This problem can be cause by many issues. But I must respect the costumers. Even if a costumers are being rude to me.
Now back to this topic. Even if you're one of the greatest casters in the world. People will still yet complain. A complain is based on their own opinion. As long as the comments are not illegal, you must respect their thoughts.
You know how many times? People scream at my face, call me useless or ugly when I'm standng in the club as a security guard. I've lose the count... People throwing bottles to my face, trying to punch me just because I rejected them to the club.
Point is, please don't take it personal. If people are being rude. What I do, is that I try to explain and if they don't listen then I'll just be quiet and ignore them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
as i now had a chance to read the deleted posts i see a little clearer. i now realice how hurt hugh realy has been by some of the comments.
after all his work for the competetive community, all this years(he did this long before UWE hired him, you know.) i see how these attacks realy sting.
i personaly dont have the selfdiscipline you are describing oldassgamers, but i guess it is something you get over time.
i guess hugh allready took a step back and talked it through with wasabi, zeikko or someone and we will see more awsome casts in the future.
people just dont realice that words can hurt.
anyway, the wasabicup was a great learning experiance as will the next cup be, rules will be formed and the show will go on.
I'm a caster now! :D
I am sure this post as most of my others in this thread will be ignored, lord forbid we all be mature and find a way to come out of all this with some positive results :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
when things get emotional, reason can only stand aside and watch the action.
<!--quoteo(post=1980879:date=Sep 20 2012, 07:49 PM:name=Flipper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flipper @ Sep 20 2012, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980879"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I find funny is that instead of responding to the valid points many people hsave made Hugh just throws up a picture of some i7's. Do you even read it or are you in a magical land where everyone agrees with you etc?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually its a valid taktic to step out of an argument and after some time distort it with something connected yet irrelevant, preferebly something funny.
usualy a little after that move, some constructive recaping can happens.
I also watched another game the other day, in another non e-sport called "ice hockey". They had some issues during the game, and the referee PAUSED the game to solve the issue before they continued, and all the viewers had to like.. wait. I was like "lol". Perhaps it would have been better if the commentators and cameramen would have have screamed "60 SECONDS OR WE CUT TV". Strangely enough they didnt, they actually let them argue.
Those were probably the strangest days in my life. Thank god im back to e-sports.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously. When they put the last dreamhack's finals on tv they told the tv station that they must treat esports like normal sports and they can't have a hand in the play at all.
This is laughable and it is my dream that one day it could be true, not just for me, but for many many people.
<!--quoteo(post=1980879:date=Sep 21 2012, 03:49 AM:name=Flipper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flipper @ Sep 21 2012, 03:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980879"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I find funny is that instead of responding to the valid points many people hsave made Hugh just throws up a picture of some i7's. Do you even read it or are you in a magical land where everyone agrees with you etc?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's up Flipper? Am I not allowed a sense of humour either? Go on, tear me down a little more. May all those others with lovely things to say about me revel in your boundless wit.
---
This thread has been place for people to ventilate, no doubt needed. I've taken the time to read all of the responses. Anyone that wishes to continue a serious discussion about this stuff can find me in the usual places. I very much appreciate the time people took to email, skype, call, and IM me about all this. I look forward to revealing exciting news over the coming weeks.
Also, Wiry is very wise.
All I want to say is Hugh did NOT delete any posts. This was totally a mistake by the moderation team and I take responsibility for it. I am glad someone still had the posts as our old, crappy forums can't undo stuff.