blame charlie, he refuses to adopt this, or was it cory to blame for this? I don't know, doesn't matter at this point frankly. I just can't understand why they refuse to listen to the community regrading movement, its such huge part of the game especially for the alien race. They keep tweaking the broken code while the underlining problem reminds clear, it just doesn't work!
would it kill the game if we had our old movement back? marines have sprint now, which I still don't agree with so why not let aliens actually have more freedom in their movement. The game already limits/restricts to much compared to ns1, why are we keep watering down ns1 gameplay so much - who does this game cater to?
It's worth remembering that bunnyhop was never particularly hard to execute. It was the way in which you employed it that made it so skill-indexed. You don't really want a hugely difficult-to-execute wallhop mechanic. Rather you want a relatively painless learning curve that lets you wallhop standardly without much difficulty while letting you expand its utility by incorporating other movement, complex navigation of geometry and being unpredictable.
Therein lies a fundamental problem with all iterations of the wallhop so far though - the embedded unpredictability of it. By having such sharp, sudden and varied movement trajectories at your disposal with such ease, unpredictability is one of the first things you are awarded with rather than the last. The ease of this unpredictability in turn makes creative navigation of geometry - which used to be the primary source of confusion - relatively less useful, save for traversing the tricky parts of the map.
Bunnyhopping, by comparison, awarded speed first and foremost and came at the expense of unpredictability. Only once you had mastered the basics, could someone try and incorporate moves that an opponent would not expect, though this always remained a balancing act. It's a problem I didn't foresee but the wallhop, by amalgamating the two rewards (speed and unpredictability), has made it a far less interesting decision whether to use it or not in combat and created a scaling balance headache.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1980478:date=Sep 20 2012, 12:07 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Sep 20 2012, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980478"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You took the words out of my mouth! Superbly explained.
I remember back quite a few builds ago, you would wall-jump up to speed and then skip along the ground (like a bunny hop) to maintain it. It provided easy-to-access movement for anyone who could chain enough jumps together to get fast, but the creativity came from how you kept that movement and what you did with it when you had it.
Well i think its been made clear enough by people that it isn't working. The current implementation mechanic wise reminds me alot of how walljumping was back in b200. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3NPKmrGQo0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3NPKmrGQo0</a> *edit* i think skie has some videos on this walljump iteration as well on his channel.
Why its not working right now i think is due to the following factors 1) much smaller speedboost which requires chaining, except you can't chain because 2) The speed preservation on floor jump is very low 3) It doesn't feel exactly right anymore because skulks have become alot more floaty than they were back in the day. 4) Much lower air control that fits ns1 skulk movement more than it does this kind of movement. 5) Normal wall to wall jumping is much floatier and the speedcap of 9.5 is kinda low.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A slow wall jump is useless for its intended purpose, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really agree with what you're saying here. I think it's most important to preserve/maintain the maximum movement speed as you jump to a new surface. What I don't think is necessary is a speed bonus, though. So I wouldn't call the current wall jump slow -- unless the movement speed is being decreased on landing and the acceleration has to ramp it up again.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wall to wall jumping is easier than in previous builds<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe I was trying floor to wall, but it seemed like I could do it a lot more consistently in previous builds than recent ones. I hardly hear that sound trigger as often.
<!--coloro:pink--><span style="color:pink"><!--/coloro-->As I said in another thread, currently the skulk feels like a gorge with teeth, haha.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I'm a bit sad the iteration you guys got to see turned out this useless, because I really think this concept can work. With some tweaking to the values it can feel a lot like bunny hopping, and be a lot more intuitive. If it was tuned to the level I propose, where the height/vertical velocity gained from wall jumping would be enough to accelerate, the skill would lie in finding the right angle to jump off the wall at.
Changing <i>Skulk.kWallJumpMaxSpeed</i> won't do much btw, despite the name it determines the minimum speed you fly off a wall at (as far as I can tell). What you want to play around with is the air friction and what fraction of vertical velocity gets translated to forward velocity.
What do you mean by your proposal? Do you want speed to be gained from going from a high point on the wall -> low point on the wall -> off the wall with each arrow representing a jump?
I'm looking for something more like how it was where you gain speed from simply performing the wall jumps quickly in succession with a wall -> wall (in the same direction) giving more speed than a wall -> floor -> wall.
Jumping wall to wall was a very unintuitive mechanic, resulted in burst speeds and didn't even remotely feel like bunny hopping. I'm talking about wall -> floor -> wall -> floor.
I suppose wall -> lower point of wall -> floor would work as well, assuming the second jump gives you an extra boost downwards. One would have to be careful when implementing that though, because it could become abuseable. I know some of the testers have already gotten to insane speeds doing something similar in the current build, altough I can't recreate it myself.
Why did fade get the double jump instead of the skulk? Midair rapid change of direction at an unpredictable moment... that would help me meleeing those marines. How about giving the second jump some speed boost? Instead, we get to crawl around at slower-than-sprint speed, because of some imaginary "skulk dominance"...
My suggestion is to bring back wall jump from 199, implement the fixes I provided that improve accessibility. Maybe keep and improve some kind of gravity usage, because it make some sense, and introduce some air strafing, because everybody loves it.
<!--quoteo(post=1980680:date=Sep 20 2012, 06:24 AM:name=Sebenza)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sebenza @ Sep 20 2012, 06:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why did fade get the double jump instead of the skulk? Midair rapid change of direction at an unpredictable moment... that would help me meleeing those marines. How about giving the second jump some speed boost? Instead, we get to crawl around at slower-than-sprint speed, because of some imaginary "skulk dominance"...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh man, don't get me started on the fade double jump-blink-shadowstep combo.. This makes the fade better at flying that the freaking Lerk is :p I've literally seen them blinking across the freaking ceiling, or around the walls in Landing Pad.
The new adren changes have limited this "Shade on ecstasy" syndrome in high ceiling rooms, but it still makes them notoriously hard to hit in anything but a small space. I imagine this is due to them being the only real counter to jetpacks in large rooms.
off topic, but yeah... make wall jumping like the hunter in L4D, and everything will be golden
<!--quoteo(post=1980661:date=Sep 20 2012, 07:15 PM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Sep 20 2012, 07:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jumping wall to wall was a very unintuitive mechanic, resulted in burst speeds and didn't even remotely feel like bunny hopping. I'm talking about wall -> floor -> wall -> floor.
I suppose wall -> lower point of wall -> floor would work as well, assuming the second jump gives you an extra boost downwards. One would have to be careful when implementing that though, because it could become abuseable. I know some of the testers have already gotten to insane speeds doing something similar in the current build, altough I can't recreate it myself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well this i don't understand. Previous walljump catered to both wall to floor to wall, and wall to wall. This iteration simply forces people to wall to floor to wall and does so in an even more unintuitive manner. *edit* Additionally, its also less skill involved
If no-one had told me how walljumping generally worked this build, i literally could never have figured it out unless by some accidental miracle. Previous walljumping was alot more intuitive by far. You figure out jumping off walls gave you speed. From that its only a small logical step to wall to floor, wall to wall, and angle experimentation.
Comparatively, currently you really can't figure out that jumping off walls gives you speed. There's no sound, no timing, and ontop of this you have to figure out that you actually need to jump looking downwards because downward momentum translates into forward momentum.
As for the abusable elements to the current implementation, i really couldn't be bothered trying to figure them out and i'd be fine with that. Probably requires you to type "givemespeed" while also simultaneously typing pi to 10 digits on numpad, holding alt, and strafe jumping down the wall. All while being shot at and not gaining any combat benefit other than omgodspeed in very specific areas with high walls.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Skulk movement is WIP...<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Yes. As you might have already perceived, there's no such thing as 'walljump' any longer. You just get a flat bonus when you jump from a wall, whether it's after a jump from a ground or directly from the wall after having clung there for a moment. It is a sad day. (My skulkjump map is ruined...)
I feel that the new system is not very desired. I don't particularly like it either. Speed is rather easy to maintain after a leap but building speed by falling is not very good right now. There's however a threshold value <i>'how much to fall before you start getting speed increase'</i> which is pretty high now. Lowering that could make the new system such that you could actually gain speed if you bothered to jump from a wall (aim up when jumping from a wall, you jump higher, you fall more, you get more speed). This threshold value will probably be played with for a patch or few, along with other values. If people keep rejecting the system, then something else is thought about. I guess.
It will probably be ways from this point before the skulk is 'ready'. There's definitely a desire to make it a fun class to play, but not too overpowered in terms of speed and maneuverability.
What's the current thinking and goals for the skulk movement now? It seems Sewlek is in charge of it from what he said recently. You're still helping him with that Skie? If you guys need more help from the community I'm sure you could get some.
<!--quoteo(post=1978099:date=Sep 15 2012, 11:29 AM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Sep 15 2012, 11:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978099"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i gave it another pass this week and got rid of the timing. im not 100% sure if we will release that with next patch, that's why i don't want to write the exact details now. and before somebody posts this: no, it's not dumbed down. there is another mechanism in place to allow dynamic increase of speed<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This useless walljump should have never made it into this build ... there is no reason whatsoever. With its current state, its nearly impossible to suggest certain adjustments, because u cant see how it works at all. My experience is, i gain speed by falling down from a certain hight and above ... thats it. There is nothing more to learn about it. There might be a slight increase by walljumping upwards and falling on the floor again but without debugspeed, u cant really notice it. So how could someone suggest anything while the ingame experience is like, there is no walljump at all...
The falling down mechanic sounds like another of these mechanics that could be really nice additions to some solid all around system, but in no way sufficient on their own.
I could see myself mixing up that kind of falling wall bounces to NS1 movement here and there.
I enjoyed the old walljumping. It was pretty much worthless as a means of getting around the map, but in combat in enclosed hallways it was always fun to bounce off the wall and be nearly impossible to shoot.
<!--quoteo(post=1980478:date=Sep 19 2012, 04:07 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Sep 19 2012, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980478"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's worth remembering that bunnyhop was never particularly hard to execute. It was the way in which you employed it that made it so skill-indexed. You don't really want a hugely difficult-to-execute wallhop mechanic. Rather you want a relatively painless learning curve that lets you wallhop standardly without much difficulty while letting you expand its utility by incorporating other movement, complex navigation of geometry and being unpredictable.
Therein lies a fundamental problem with all iterations of the wallhop so far though - the embedded unpredictability of it. By having such sharp, sudden and varied movement trajectories at your disposal with such ease, unpredictability is one of the first things you are awarded with rather than the last. The ease of this unpredictability in turn makes creative navigation of geometry - which used to be the primary source of confusion - relatively less useful, save for traversing the tricky parts of the map.
Bunnyhopping, by comparison, awarded speed first and foremost and came at the expense of unpredictability. Only once you had mastered the basics, could someone try and incorporate moves that an opponent would not expect, though this always remained a balancing act. It's a problem I didn't foresee but the wallhop, by amalgamating the two rewards (speed and unpredictability), has made it a far less interesting decision whether to use it or not in combat and created a scaling balance headache.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mostly agree, a few points.
1) Yeah, we really would like something with a smooth learning / reward curve. See my post that got quoted in Fana's BHop article. Wallhop definitely is failing to do this in this version. Prior iterations were a bit better on this front.
2) I don't think it was hard to learn, but it was hard to know about properly. It wasn't something that a normal player picks up within the game. It required you to look up online resources and do a little practice on your own. Contrasted to say Warsow where they made the mechanic so integral it was like the first or second tutorial they gave you in the game. Plus Warsow's mechanic was so smooth to use. It's the extra barrier to even understand it that's the problem for BHop. It's not particularly intuitive, and requires external research and practice to learn.
3) Yup on predictability. One of my friends had a particular zigzag pattern. But once you figured it out you could track him almost perfectly. Mastery of movement, ambushing, and winning is the unpredictability of the Skulk as you close and while in close range.
What is the solution? Well, BHop is the usual stand-in. But it's a flawed solution.
<!--quoteo(post=1980744:date=Sep 20 2012, 03:43 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Sep 20 2012, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well this i don't understand. Previous walljump catered to both wall to floor to wall, and wall to wall. This iteration simply forces people to wall to floor to wall and does so in an even more unintuitive manner. *edit* Additionally, its also less skill involved
If no-one had told me how walljumping generally worked this build, i literally could never have figured it out unless by some accidental miracle. Previous walljumping was alot more intuitive by far. You figure out jumping off walls gave you speed. From that its only a small logical step to wall to floor, wall to wall, and angle experimentation.
Comparatively, currently you really can't figure out that jumping off walls gives you speed. There's no sound, no timing, and ontop of this you have to figure out that you actually need to jump looking downwards because downward momentum translates into forward momentum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's intuitive as in you're more likely to do it by accident than, say, bunny hopping. You figure out jumping off heights gives you speed. How can you get more height? By wall jumping. I think it's fairly straight forward (although not in the current build).
I agree it currently lacks a lot of feedback. The special wall jump sound was removed with the timing aspect, and the acceleration was nerfed so much before the public build went out that it's barely noticeable. I think if these things are improved it will become a lot more useful. And as I mentioned earlier, the skill would be in finding techniques to build up and maintain speed.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1980747:date=Sep 20 2012, 02:46 PM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Sep 20 2012, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Skulk movement is WIP...<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
It will probably be ways from this point before the skulk is 'ready'. There's definitely a desire to make it a fun class to play, but not too overpowered in terms of speed and maneuverability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Little over one month until release and they're still throwing ###### against the wall, hoping something will stick. Little over one month until release, and the most important component of skulk play is still missing.
All the while, those of us who have suggested a solution we know works from experience, multiple ways to improve it, and even the possibility of integrating it with the current mechanic, are being ignored.
<!--quoteo(post=1980791:date=Sep 20 2012, 11:22 AM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Sep 20 2012, 11:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980791"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's intuitive as in you're more likely to do it by accident than, say, bunny hopping. You figure out jumping off heights gives you speed. How can you get more height? By wall jumping. I think it's fairly straight forward (although not in the current build).
I agree it currently lacks a lot of feedback. The special wall jump sound was removed with the timing aspect, and the acceleration was nerfed so much before the public build went out that it's barely noticeable. I think if these things are improved it will become a lot more useful. And as I mentioned earlier, the skill would be in finding techniques to build up and maintain speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think height -> speed is going to work for wall jumping. It's going to be useless in most hallways and some rooms while being potentially abuse able in other rooms (crevice, docking).
I'm also not sure how speed is ever supposed to be gained and maintained with only jumping downward giving speed. You say you get height by wall jumping, but you really don't. You'd get height faster by simply wall walking. This system doesn't seem to encourage wall jumping at all. What it does seem to encourage is climbing up to the ceiling/wall and then jumping down for a short burst of speed. Then climbing back up and doing it again. There is no continuation or build up of speed, it's just you're on the ceiling -> floor -> spam jump to conserve the speed boost you got. I don't see any wall jumping in this mechanic.
<!--quoteo(post=1980947:date=Sep 20 2012, 09:35 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Sep 20 2012, 09:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980947"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think height -> speed is going to work for wall jumping. It's going to be useless in most hallways and some rooms while being potentially abuse able in other rooms (crevice, docking).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's why it needs to be tweaked to make it less useless. Abuse can be prevented by capping the acceleration (not the speed).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You say you get height by wall jumping, but you really don't. You'd get height faster by simply wall walking. This system doesn't seem to encourage wall jumping at all. What it does seem to encourage is climbing up to the ceiling/wall and then jumping down for a short burst of speed. Then climbing back up and doing it again. There is no continuation or build up of speed, it's just you're on the ceiling -> floor -> spam jump to conserve the speed boost you got. I don't see any wall jumping in this mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except you lose all your speed if you stay on the wall for too long.
Here is what I'm getting from this debate. That the Skulk needs a Shift key ability that improves their combat capability. Just like the Fade has shadow step, Gorge has belly slide, Onos has charge.
I think UWE should eliminate wall jump all together. Why, because there should not be hidden mechanics in the game for people to just stumble upon. If they want to address the speed movement problem they need to....
- Allow celerity to be a constant upgrade through out combat.
- Skulks movement speed should always be faster then a foot marines. For example if a marine's sprint speed is 9.0 a skulk should move at 9.1.
- Need better Ambush tactics for skulks/aliens. Silence needs to be moved off of the shade. So that Silence can be paired with cloaking.
- Cloaking in general has to long of a delay and should allow aliens to regain stealth quicker. Possibly make cloak an on hot key ability so I can attack a marine then cloak but do this with a delay in between uses.
- Eliminate the movement speed penalty for being Stealth.
<!--quoteo(post=1980795:date=Sep 20 2012, 08:32 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Sep 20 2012, 08:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980795"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Little over one month until release and they're still throwing ###### against the wall, hoping something will stick. Little over one month until release, and the most important component of skulk play is still missing.
All the while, those of us who have suggested a solution we know works from experience, multiple ways to improve it, and even the possibility of integrating it with the current mechanic, are being ignored.
Make sense of it those who can.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems like the same thing that happened with CS:GO. Lurppis and other pros blasted the game and said they did not listen to the 1.6 pros like they said they would, and look at GO's player numbers now.
<!--quoteo(post=1981012:date=Sep 20 2012, 03:42 PM:name={GGs} Chicken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ({GGs} Chicken @ Sep 20 2012, 03:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981012"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seems like the same thing that happened with CS:GO. Lurppis and other pros blasted the game and said they did not listen to the 1.6 pros like they said they would, and look at GO's player numbers now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
imo the GO numbers have more to do with the poor release and poor support after release (no hype, HPE developed it and then handed it over to Valve, no steam workshop still, matchmaking is broken, some stupid ###### like a warning every time you open server browser and browser settings not being saved)
the GO numbers were pretty high (not 1.6 level but up there) for a while after release and now they dropped to around what CSS is
Comments
would it kill the game if we had our old movement back? marines have sprint now, which I still don't agree with so why not let aliens actually have more freedom in their movement. The game already limits/restricts to much compared to ns1, why are we keep watering down ns1 gameplay so much - who does this game cater to?
Therein lies a fundamental problem with all iterations of the wallhop so far though - the embedded unpredictability of it. By having such sharp, sudden and varied movement trajectories at your disposal with such ease, unpredictability is one of the first things you are awarded with rather than the last. The ease of this unpredictability in turn makes creative navigation of geometry - which used to be the primary source of confusion - relatively less useful, save for traversing the tricky parts of the map.
Bunnyhopping, by comparison, awarded speed first and foremost and came at the expense of unpredictability. Only once you had mastered the basics, could someone try and incorporate moves that an opponent would not expect, though this always remained a balancing act. It's a problem I didn't foresee but the wallhop, by amalgamating the two rewards (speed and unpredictability), has made it a far less interesting decision whether to use it or not in combat and created a scaling balance headache.
You took the words out of my mouth! Superbly explained.
That would be fun to see again.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3NPKmrGQo0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3NPKmrGQo0</a> *edit* i think skie has some videos on this walljump iteration as well on his channel.
Why its not working right now i think is due to the following factors
1) much smaller speedboost which requires chaining, except you can't chain because
2) The speed preservation on floor jump is very low
3) It doesn't feel exactly right anymore because skulks have become alot more floaty than they were back in the day.
4) Much lower air control that fits ns1 skulk movement more than it does this kind of movement.
5) Normal wall to wall jumping is much floatier and the speedcap of 9.5 is kinda low.
I really agree with what you're saying here. I think it's most important to preserve/maintain the maximum movement speed as you jump to a new surface. What I don't think is necessary is a speed bonus, though. So I wouldn't call the current wall jump slow -- unless the movement speed is being decreased on landing and the acceleration has to ramp it up again.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wall to wall jumping is easier than in previous builds<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe I was trying floor to wall, but it seemed like I could do it a lot more consistently in previous builds than recent ones. I hardly hear that sound trigger as often.
Changing <i>Skulk.kWallJumpMaxSpeed</i> won't do much btw, despite the name it determines the minimum speed you fly off a wall at (as far as I can tell). What you want to play around with is the air friction and what fraction of vertical velocity gets translated to forward velocity.
I'm looking for something more like how it was where you gain speed from simply performing the wall jumps quickly in succession with a wall -> wall (in the same direction) giving more speed than a wall -> floor -> wall.
I suppose wall -> lower point of wall -> floor would work as well, assuming the second jump gives you an extra boost downwards. One would have to be careful when implementing that though, because it could become abuseable. I know some of the testers have already gotten to insane speeds doing something similar in the current build, altough I can't recreate it myself.
Oh man, don't get me started on the fade double jump-blink-shadowstep combo.. This makes the fade better at flying that the freaking Lerk is :p I've literally seen them blinking across the freaking ceiling, or around the walls in Landing Pad.
The new adren changes have limited this "Shade on ecstasy" syndrome in high ceiling rooms, but it still makes them notoriously hard to hit in anything but a small space. I imagine this is due to them being the only real counter to jetpacks in large rooms.
off topic, but yeah... make wall jumping like the hunter in L4D, and everything will be golden
I suppose wall -> lower point of wall -> floor would work as well, assuming the second jump gives you an extra boost downwards. One would have to be careful when implementing that though, because it could become abuseable. I know some of the testers have already gotten to insane speeds doing something similar in the current build, altough I can't recreate it myself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well this i don't understand. Previous walljump catered to both wall to floor to wall, and wall to wall. This iteration simply forces people to wall to floor to wall and does so in an even more unintuitive manner. *edit* Additionally, its also less skill involved
If no-one had told me how walljumping generally worked this build, i literally could never have figured it out unless by some accidental miracle. Previous walljumping was alot more intuitive by far. You figure out jumping off walls gave you speed. From that its only a small logical step to wall to floor, wall to wall, and angle experimentation.
Comparatively, currently you really can't figure out that jumping off walls gives you speed. There's no sound, no timing, and ontop of this you have to figure out that you actually need to jump looking downwards because downward momentum translates into forward momentum.
As for the abusable elements to the current implementation, i really couldn't be bothered trying to figure them out and i'd be fine with that. Probably requires you to type "givemespeed" while also simultaneously typing pi to 10 digits on numpad, holding alt, and strafe jumping down the wall. All while being shot at and not gaining any combat benefit other than omgodspeed in very specific areas with high walls.
Yes. As you might have already perceived, there's no such thing as 'walljump' any longer. You just get a flat bonus when you jump from a wall, whether it's after a jump from a ground or directly from the wall after having clung there for a moment. It is a sad day. (My skulkjump map is ruined...)
I feel that the new system is not very desired. I don't particularly like it either. Speed is rather easy to maintain after a leap but building speed by falling is not very good right now. There's however a threshold value <i>'how much to fall before you start getting speed increase'</i> which is pretty high now. Lowering that could make the new system such that you could actually gain speed if you bothered to jump from a wall (aim up when jumping from a wall, you jump higher, you fall more, you get more speed). This threshold value will probably be played with for a patch or few, along with other values. If people keep rejecting the system, then something else is thought about. I guess.
It will probably be ways from this point before the skulk is 'ready'. There's definitely a desire to make it a fun class to play, but not too overpowered in terms of speed and maneuverability.
<!--quoteo(post=1978099:date=Sep 15 2012, 11:29 AM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Sep 15 2012, 11:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978099"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i gave it another pass this week and got rid of the timing. im not 100% sure if we will release that with next patch, that's why i don't want to write the exact details now. and before somebody posts this: no, it's not dumbed down. there is another mechanism in place to allow dynamic increase of speed<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So how could someone suggest anything while the ingame experience is like, there is no walljump at all...
I could see myself mixing up that kind of falling wall bounces to NS1 movement here and there.
Therein lies a fundamental problem with all iterations of the wallhop so far though - the embedded unpredictability of it. By having such sharp, sudden and varied movement trajectories at your disposal with such ease, unpredictability is one of the first things you are awarded with rather than the last. The ease of this unpredictability in turn makes creative navigation of geometry - which used to be the primary source of confusion - relatively less useful, save for traversing the tricky parts of the map.
Bunnyhopping, by comparison, awarded speed first and foremost and came at the expense of unpredictability. Only once you had mastered the basics, could someone try and incorporate moves that an opponent would not expect, though this always remained a balancing act. It's a problem I didn't foresee but the wallhop, by amalgamating the two rewards (speed and unpredictability), has made it a far less interesting decision whether to use it or not in combat and created a scaling balance headache.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mostly agree, a few points.
1) Yeah, we really would like something with a smooth learning / reward curve. See my post that got quoted in Fana's BHop article. Wallhop definitely is failing to do this in this version. Prior iterations were a bit better on this front.
2) I don't think it was hard to learn, but it was hard to know about properly. It wasn't something that a normal player picks up within the game. It required you to look up online resources and do a little practice on your own. Contrasted to say Warsow where they made the mechanic so integral it was like the first or second tutorial they gave you in the game. Plus Warsow's mechanic was so smooth to use. It's the extra barrier to even understand it that's the problem for BHop. It's not particularly intuitive, and requires external research and practice to learn.
3) Yup on predictability. One of my friends had a particular zigzag pattern. But once you figured it out you could track him almost perfectly. Mastery of movement, ambushing, and winning is the unpredictability of the Skulk as you close and while in close range.
What is the solution? Well, BHop is the usual stand-in. But it's a flawed solution.
If no-one had told me how walljumping generally worked this build, i literally could never have figured it out unless by some accidental miracle. Previous walljumping was alot more intuitive by far. You figure out jumping off walls gave you speed. From that its only a small logical step to wall to floor, wall to wall, and angle experimentation.
Comparatively, currently you really can't figure out that jumping off walls gives you speed. There's no sound, no timing, and ontop of this you have to figure out that you actually need to jump looking downwards because downward momentum translates into forward momentum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's intuitive as in you're more likely to do it by accident than, say, bunny hopping. You figure out jumping off heights gives you speed. How can you get more height? By wall jumping. I think it's fairly straight forward (although not in the current build).
I agree it currently lacks a lot of feedback. The special wall jump sound was removed with the timing aspect, and the acceleration was nerfed so much before the public build went out that it's barely noticeable. I think if these things are improved it will become a lot more useful. And as I mentioned earlier, the skill would be in finding techniques to build up and maintain speed.
It will probably be ways from this point before the skulk is 'ready'. There's definitely a desire to make it a fun class to play, but not too overpowered in terms of speed and maneuverability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Little over one month until release and they're still throwing ###### against the wall, hoping something will stick. Little over one month until release, and the most important component of skulk play is still missing.
All the while, those of us who have suggested a solution we know works from experience, multiple ways to improve it, and even the possibility of integrating it with the current mechanic, are being ignored.
Make sense of it those who can.
I agree it currently lacks a lot of feedback. The special wall jump sound was removed with the timing aspect, and the acceleration was nerfed so much before the public build went out that it's barely noticeable. I think if these things are improved it will become a lot more useful. And as I mentioned earlier, the skill would be in finding techniques to build up and maintain speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think height -> speed is going to work for wall jumping. It's going to be useless in most hallways and some rooms while being potentially abuse able in other rooms (crevice, docking).
I'm also not sure how speed is ever supposed to be gained and maintained with only jumping downward giving speed. You say you get height by wall jumping, but you really don't. You'd get height faster by simply wall walking. This system doesn't seem to encourage wall jumping at all. What it does seem to encourage is climbing up to the ceiling/wall and then jumping down for a short burst of speed. Then climbing back up and doing it again. There is no continuation or build up of speed, it's just you're on the ceiling -> floor -> spam jump to conserve the speed boost you got. I don't see any wall jumping in this mechanic.
That's why it needs to be tweaked to make it less useless. Abuse can be prevented by capping the acceleration (not the speed).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You say you get height by wall jumping, but you really don't. You'd get height faster by simply wall walking. This system doesn't seem to encourage wall jumping at all. What it does seem to encourage is climbing up to the ceiling/wall and then jumping down for a short burst of speed. Then climbing back up and doing it again. There is no continuation or build up of speed, it's just you're on the ceiling -> floor -> spam jump to conserve the speed boost you got. I don't see any wall jumping in this mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except you lose all your speed if you stay on the wall for too long.
I think UWE should eliminate wall jump all together. Why, because there should not be hidden mechanics in the game for people to just stumble upon. If they want to address the speed movement problem they need to....
- Allow celerity to be a constant upgrade through out combat.
- Skulks movement speed should always be faster then a foot marines. For example if a marine's sprint speed is 9.0 a skulk should move at 9.1.
- Need better Ambush tactics for skulks/aliens. Silence needs to be moved off of the shade. So that Silence can be paired with cloaking.
- Cloaking in general has to long of a delay and should allow aliens to regain stealth quicker. Possibly make cloak an on hot key ability so I can attack a marine then cloak but do this with a delay in between uses.
- Eliminate the movement speed penalty for being Stealth.
All the while, those of us who have suggested a solution we know works from experience, multiple ways to improve it, and even the possibility of integrating it with the current mechanic, are being ignored.
Make sense of it those who can.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems like the same thing that happened with CS:GO. Lurppis and other pros blasted the game and said they did not listen to the 1.6 pros like they said they would, and look at GO's player numbers now.
imo the GO numbers have more to do with the poor release and poor support after release (no hype, HPE developed it and then handed it over to Valve, no steam workshop still, matchmaking is broken, some stupid ###### like a warning every time you open server browser and browser settings not being saved)
the GO numbers were pretty high (not 1.6 level but up there) for a while after release and now they dropped to around what CSS is