<!--quoteo(post=1980795:date=Sep 21 2012, 01:32 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Sep 21 2012, 01:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980795"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Little over one month until release and they're still throwing ###### against the wall, hoping something will stick. Little over one month until release, and the most important component of skulk play is still missing.
All the while, those of us who have suggested a solution we know works from experience, multiple ways to improve it, and even the possibility of integrating it with the current mechanic, are being ignored.
Make sense of it those who can.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This!
I don't know why they are trying to reinvent the wheel. We are telling uwe what wewant yet they are trying everything else first. Why bother uwe..
<!--quoteo(post=1981031:date=Sep 21 2012, 08:21 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Sep 21 2012, 08:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981031"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Although I don't see how it would work as a constant method of travel. Perhaps we don't need one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> .... Lost for words
I wonder if UWE would consider significantly reducing Skulk friction again, allowing us to skip along the ground to conserve momentum? If they did that, all they'd have to do is find a way to give it in the first place.
<!--quoteo(post=1980795:date=Sep 20 2012, 05:32 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Sep 20 2012, 05:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980795"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Little over one month until release and they're still throwing ###### against the wall, hoping something will stick. Little over one month until release, and the most important component of skulk play is still missing.
All the while, those of us who have suggested a solution we know works from experience, multiple ways to improve it, and even the possibility of integrating it with the current mechanic, are being ignored.
Make sense of it those who can.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1981015:date=Sep 20 2012, 02:52 PM:name=Cloud King)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cloud King @ Sep 20 2012, 02:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->imo the GO numbers have more to do with the poor release and poor support after release (no hype, HPE developed it and then handed it over to Valve, no steam workshop still, matchmaking is broken, some stupid ###### like a warning every time you open server browser and browser settings not being saved)
the GO numbers were pretty high (not 1.6 level but up there) for a while after release and now they dropped to around what CSS is<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The GO numbers are half of CSS, and I'm pretty sure on release it had about the same if not a few thousand more than 1.6. I disagree about it having to do with the poor release. I mean sure there were ALOT of problems, and still a good chunk atm, but I think if the actual gameplay was better than css or 1.6 then people would have stayed, which they haven't.
Somebody else may want to verify this, but I noticed that when I wall jump, if I look up when I jump(in effect jumping upward off the wall then using skulk air control to level out and reattach to the wall or opposite wall) wall jump feels much more effective. At the very least this is great for attacking, but I have not confirmed if transit is any faster.
Anybody else try this?
Am I on to something or am I just late to the party?
Somebody else may want to verify this, but I noticed that when I wall jump, if I look up when I jump(in effect jumping upward off the wall then using skulk air control to level out and reattach to the wall or opposite wall) wall jump feels much more effective. At the very least this is great for attacking, but I have not confirmed if transit is any faster.
Anybody else try this?
Am I on to something or am I just late to the party?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. The problem is no matter how effective you are at the wall jump, you're still only moving at 7-8 speed which is easy for a good shooter to own.
<!--quoteo(post=1981540:date=Sep 21 2012, 04:36 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Sep 21 2012, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981540"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah. The problem is no matter how effective you are at the wall jump, you're still only moving at 7-8 speed which is easy for a good shooter to own.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its easy for a mediocre shooter (i.e. myself) to own also. :-/
I'll preface this by saying I ship code constantly at work. I mentor FRC robots that have to ship 45 days after conception. I also played NS1 back in the 1.4/3.2 days and never really needed BH'ing because I so rarely played as marines. These days, I only play aliens because I can't that mechanic in any other game. My general sentiment with this mechanic is "it's time to ship the damn code". As a new, casual, player to NS2 (20 hours in over 3 weeks), I haven't had the opportunity to learn wallhopping in its many forms since then.
Wallhopping, to me, is a fantastic concept. Aliens have become more dependent on each other in NS2 (bravo!), and wall hopping is a way to separate skilled players from standard ambush-charge players. However, as a skulk I can't circle-strafe a 'rine in 220 anywhere like I could in 217-219 (started playing again in 217). If the marine is good and hops, strafing is the only way to avoid his ridiculous aim -- yet even that has been nerfed in 220. So this weekend it was typically a bite-once-and-run scenario, with kills on good marines taking 10-20 seconds depending on the amount of cover. This is fine, as it has its own elements of 'fun' and still greatly slows the marine down (let's ignore the fact that a 2nd skulk will always get the credit for the kill if he appears...).
My problem with this game (now that I've paid $35 for it...) is that there is zero incentive for aliens to attack from the walls/ceilings because the marines see it coming and the skulks move even slower (due to obstructions). Additionally, if the marines are in groups, it's nearly <b>impossible </b>to take any one marine down due to how slowly the skulk moves. "4 marines outside of cargo with half of your team in topo and the other half in nano? Good luck Mr Skulk, you won't even thin them out in b220. Ya might as well F4 if they have anything greater than rifles." This isn't me whining: this is me pointing out how the game will easily disenfranchise new players and drive them off before the game even hits the first Steam sale.
The solution, IMO, is to simply increase the run speeds while on the ceilings or walls (except in vents), while implementing a wallhop that uses gravity to provide forward momentum (as described previously). This wouldn't necessarily give Aliens better rush abilities at the start since there's TONS of crap on the walls/ceilings along the way, yet it would provide some sort of way to at least dodge <i>some </i>incoming fire while closing the distance on 2+ marines in hallways.
Any more complete re-works will risk alienating new players post-release. Wall-hopping in any of the forms I've tried has never been remotely intuitive (in the videos linked above, were the kids on crack when they played???), and continous re-writes will remove the precious 'tweaking time' needed after any implementation. It's time to ship the damn code, and on the 17+ successful launches I've had in my career, the simpler the better. Scrap the wonky bull###### meant for 1337 players and make it intuitive.
I like flybot's approach. Walljumping for me was always capricious: I felt like I was doing it correctly, timing it right, but it didn't happen, or it happened accidentally. And the map geometry doesn't help either: you'd like to get a constant stream of jumps going only to have a rock wall confound you. I say good riddance. A flat speed bump would be the solution here, for the reasons flybot presented, combined with a slight buff to the bite cone distance and radius (I think it was a bit overly punitive to the skulk this build) would allow the skulks a bit more defensive capability early game.
Right now, it's just a question of the aliens holding on until fades can hit the field. If the marines are at all organized, this never happens.
Flat speed increase is boring. It just makes the game easier without requiring the player to do anything. It's like making the guns require less accurate aiming. By doing that you need to lower the potential power because now it's easier. If you have something that is more difficult to perform absolutely perfectly, it is more rewarding because you can grant a big advantage to doing so. If you aim 100% accurate (even for a short burst) then you will reap big rewards and it creates these rare awesome moments where someone pulls off the impossible.
I though the previous version of walljump was okay, but the biggest problem was the timing. As Yukki said, if you pressed just a tiny bit early, you got no speed boost at all. I also felt like it was somewhat difficult to tell if you were now actually attached to the wall or not. I think either the timing should be made more consistent and clear to the player via visual feedback when they need to press jump in order to gain the boost (maybe animation change, or hud indicator). Or the timing should be removed entirely and it should be more about chaining jumps together, the speed should only last for a short period if you only do 1 walljump and none of that stored momentum stuff.
The purpose of skill based movement is to provide scaling that match the scaling of aiming on the marine side. A flat speed increase will not work, it's just a buff that might be otherwise justified, but is out of subject here.
I also doubt asking new players to use skill based movement is a good idea, they have way to much to learn already, just think about para+2 bites, do you really ask new players to para, 2 bites and wall jump at the same time? It's something you should come to only after a few weeks of play imo.
<!--quoteo(post=1980754:date=Sep 20 2012, 05:09 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Sep 20 2012, 05:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What's the current thinking and goals for the skulk movement now? It seems Sewlek is in charge of it from what he said recently. You're still helping him with that Skie? If you guys need more help from the community I'm sure you could get some.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I occassionally test sewlek's new changes and find the bugs and exploits, then give him feedback on what to change. I don't know why the devs don't want bunnyhop back as it were in NS1. Also I don't like the new system as much as I did wall jumping. I was asked to try out some new values for the current system to see if it could be made better, but I ended up not doing that because I don't like the system really all that much.
Personally I think some sort of mix of walljump and bunnyhop would be the boss. Either bunnyhop or strafejumping (I come from a Quake2 background)(or both as in CPMA) to accelerate and control your movement, and walljumping to control the <i>vertical</i> aspect of your movement. By that I mean that you could direct your bonus speed with a walljump into a direction where you are looking. This would make skulks so fun and maneuverable.
We do have this vertical control in the current iteration but building up speed just doesn't work.
If I could code .lua a bit better I'd probably give a movement system candidate of my own, but I'm a bit weak in that language.
I dont think that whatever system ends up being implemented should have any storage of momentum, or if so, very little... We have all seen the effects of a system that allows you to both move faster and evasively.. there needs to be a more clear choice regarding that, an evasive yet not abuseable mechanic, and a speed increasing predictable mechanic.
I have to admit if movement like this is final first ns2 mod that fixes it is going to get a massive following compared to NS2. So many people are frustrated with how terrible it feels
If a promod or classic mod will come out it and get popular, it's going to spell death for the game as it will split the already small community and in a very small amount of time become a game like some are now such as TFC, NS1, W:ET, CPMA where only the serious players are left and only enough to have organized games every weekend. Lets hope UWE avoids this by listening to the right part of the community.
seeing 10-20 active servers only while thousands of copied have been sold is actually pretty bad, imo. But i do agree with you, they only hurt themselves with constantly watering down gameplay and ignoring NS1. The current "noob friendly" movement is way to limited, restricting players movement and removing any skill curve away from the player only hurts the game.
I do hope we have good classic mod, i'm really looking forward to that.
Comments
All the while, those of us who have suggested a solution we know works from experience, multiple ways to improve it, and even the possibility of integrating it with the current mechanic, are being ignored.
Make sense of it those who can.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This!
I don't know why they are trying to reinvent the wheel. We are telling uwe
what wewant yet they are trying everything else first. Why bother uwe..
Although I don't see how it would work as a constant method of travel. Perhaps we don't need one.
.... Lost for words
All the while, those of us who have suggested a solution we know works from experience, multiple ways to improve it, and even the possibility of integrating it with the current mechanic, are being ignored.
Make sense of it those who can.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is madness.
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_ttcSaTheI&feature=player_detailpage#t=57s" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_ttcSaTheI...etailpage#t=57s</a>
the GO numbers were pretty high (not 1.6 level but up there) for a while after release and now they dropped to around what CSS is<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The GO numbers are half of CSS, and I'm pretty sure on release it had about the same if not a few thousand more than 1.6. I disagree about it having to do with the poor release. I mean sure there were ALOT of problems, and still a good chunk atm, but I think if the actual gameplay was better than css or 1.6 then people would have stayed, which they haven't.
Somebody else may want to verify this, but I noticed that when I wall jump, if I look up when I jump(in effect jumping upward off the wall then using skulk air control to level out and reattach to the wall or opposite wall) wall jump feels much more effective. At the very least this is great for attacking, but I have not confirmed if transit is any faster.
Anybody else try this?
Am I on to something or am I just late to the party?
Somebody else may want to verify this, but I noticed that when I wall jump, if I look up when I jump(in effect jumping upward off the wall then using skulk air control to level out and reattach to the wall or opposite wall) wall jump feels much more effective. At the very least this is great for attacking, but I have not confirmed if transit is any faster.
Anybody else try this?
Am I on to something or am I just late to the party?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. The problem is no matter how effective you are at the wall jump, you're still only moving at 7-8 speed which is easy for a good shooter to own.
Its easy for a mediocre shooter (i.e. myself) to own also. :-/
Wallhopping, to me, is a fantastic concept. Aliens have become more dependent on each other in NS2 (bravo!), and wall hopping is a way to separate skilled players from standard ambush-charge players. However, as a skulk I can't circle-strafe a 'rine in 220 anywhere like I could in 217-219 (started playing again in 217). If the marine is good and hops, strafing is the only way to avoid his ridiculous aim -- yet even that has been nerfed in 220. So this weekend it was typically a bite-once-and-run scenario, with kills on good marines taking 10-20 seconds depending on the amount of cover. This is fine, as it has its own elements of 'fun' and still greatly slows the marine down (let's ignore the fact that a 2nd skulk will always get the credit for the kill if he appears...).
My problem with this game (now that I've paid $35 for it...) is that there is zero incentive for aliens to attack from the walls/ceilings because the marines see it coming and the skulks move even slower (due to obstructions). Additionally, if the marines are in groups, it's nearly <b>impossible </b>to take any one marine down due to how slowly the skulk moves. "4 marines outside of cargo with half of your team in topo and the other half in nano? Good luck Mr Skulk, you won't even thin them out in b220. Ya might as well F4 if they have anything greater than rifles." This isn't me whining: this is me pointing out how the game will easily disenfranchise new players and drive them off before the game even hits the first Steam sale.
The solution, IMO, is to simply increase the run speeds while on the ceilings or walls (except in vents), while implementing a wallhop that uses gravity to provide forward momentum (as described previously). This wouldn't necessarily give Aliens better rush abilities at the start since there's TONS of crap on the walls/ceilings along the way, yet it would provide some sort of way to at least dodge <i>some </i>incoming fire while closing the distance on 2+ marines in hallways.
Any more complete re-works will risk alienating new players post-release. Wall-hopping in any of the forms I've tried has never been remotely intuitive (in the videos linked above, were the kids on crack when they played???), and continous re-writes will remove the precious 'tweaking time' needed after any implementation. It's time to ship the damn code, and on the 17+ successful launches I've had in my career, the simpler the better. Scrap the wonky bull###### meant for 1337 players and make it intuitive.
Right now, it's just a question of the aliens holding on until fades can hit the field. If the marines are at all organized, this never happens.
I though the previous version of walljump was okay, but the biggest problem was the timing. As Yukki said, if you pressed just a tiny bit early, you got no speed boost at all. I also felt like it was somewhat difficult to tell if you were now actually attached to the wall or not. I think either the timing should be made more consistent and clear to the player via visual feedback when they need to press jump in order to gain the boost (maybe animation change, or hud indicator). Or the timing should be removed entirely and it should be more about chaining jumps together, the speed should only last for a short period if you only do 1 walljump and none of that stored momentum stuff.
I also doubt asking new players to use skill based movement is a good idea, they have way to much to learn already, just think about para+2 bites, do you really ask new players to para, 2 bites and wall jump at the same time? It's something you should come to only after a few weeks of play imo.
I occassionally test sewlek's new changes and find the bugs and exploits, then give him feedback on what to change. I don't know why the devs don't want bunnyhop back as it were in NS1. Also I don't like the new system as much as I did wall jumping. I was asked to try out some new values for the current system to see if it could be made better, but I ended up not doing that because I don't like the system really all that much.
Personally I think some sort of mix of walljump and bunnyhop would be the boss. Either bunnyhop or strafejumping (I come from a Quake2 background)(or both as in CPMA) to accelerate and control your movement, and walljumping to control the <i>vertical</i> aspect of your movement. By that I mean that you could direct your bonus speed with a walljump into a direction where you are looking. This would make skulks so fun and maneuverable.
We do have this vertical control in the current iteration but building up speed just doesn't work.
If I could code .lua a bit better I'd probably give a movement system candidate of my own, but I'm a bit weak in that language.
I do hope we have good classic mod, i'm really looking forward to that.