<!--quoteo(post=1983273:date=Sep 26 2012, 06:28 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Sep 26 2012, 06:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983273"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Cheating: Altering the game to a state that is not intended by the devs and gives you an advantage over other players.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you mean "altering the game in a way that is not intended or gives an unfair advantage", I'd agree. Here's my 2c:
Using a custom crosshair isn't cheating by my definition if anyone may do so, nor is altering FOV, a GUI menu is a convenience, not consent. Unless the sounds being modified or removed are restricted, doing with them as you please isn't unfair. I'm neutral on fog. Altering a model to be pink, purple, white, gray or any other color or combination thereof isn't unfair if the files aren't restricted. If textures aren't purposefully transparent and aren't meant to be edited, I'm in agreement.
<!--quoteo(post=1983321:date=Sep 26 2012, 09:20 AM:name=bEEb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bEEb @ Sep 26 2012, 09:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983321"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Thats ridiculous. Its the center of your screen. Everyone knows that. Whats the difference between a crosshair or a piece of tape? 2. If everyone has the same option then how is it cheating? In build 221 we have a FOV slider and you still think its cheating???? 3. Duh 4. Yeah we already know that. 5. Really? Are you trolling? No one here would disagree that changing the color of a skulk is cheating. 6. Now you're just being a ######.
You are arguing about points that no one has an issue with. Also your vague accusation that good players all must be cheating is a little insulting and frankly not very smart. Do you really believe that?
The fact is that 98% of what the posters in this thread are arguing FOR are basic toggleable options that exist in MANY games already. i.e, FOV slider.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with all of the judgements Necro made at face value, however even if myself and anyone else with contrary opinions were to join in agreement, the prevalence of an opinion would never equate to an absolute, unquestionable verity that invokes the misconduct of "trolling" at the first sign of discord. I have no problem understanding and accepting that he is entitled to his opinion, why is this difficult for you? Your presumptuous and needlessly antagonistic responses won't solve anything, but they will make you seem intolerant and unfriendly.
<!--quoteo(post=1983403:date=Sep 26 2012, 11:00 PM:name=RobustPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobustPenguin @ Sep 26 2012, 11:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983403"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not trying to be a ###### but there seems like theres an awful lot that is 'after 1.0'. Could it be the game is just not ready?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm quite sure that this has been known for years now. They are not going to shove the game out and forget it, they are going to support NS2 for a long time. There will be new content; maps, weapons, features and bug fixes. This has been their plan and they have been quite open with it.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1983403:date=Sep 26 2012, 10:00 PM:name=RobustPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobustPenguin @ Sep 26 2012, 10:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983403"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not trying to be a ###### but there seems like theres an awful lot that is 'after 1.0'. Could it be the game is just not ready?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like TF2 wasn't ready when they sold it.....
It's a novel idea, release a playable game, then constantly improve and update it over time. Some people think they are being sold half an unfinished game, and some people realise that a game is never truly finished. Having an arbitrary v1, that's it game is done mentality is not part of UWE's make-up. They are after all from modding roots, and mods need constant updating over time, so it is not surprising they chose this route :)
What is surprising is the fact that UWE have always said this from day 1, and you are questioning it :) It's not like it's anything new :)
this is a game where the alien and the marines are trying really hard to get out of the FOV of their opponent to confuse them, a 5 degree advantage is very unfair. When you're fighting someone you shouldn't have to ask yourself : I wonder what his FOV is?
In this game each class is given a very precise and particular FOV for balance purpose. There's a reason why the skulk has 10% more FOV than marine. If you can get that 10% on your marine by modifying your config its unfair.
Also, I think if everybody was running at like 150 FOV, it would completely break the gameplay that's intended, let alone when 1 guy gets it and everybody else doesn't.
I wouldnt say I'm agaisnt people going for a lower FOV than the standard or the maximum allowed, but people who go above that should realize they're cheating IMO (gaining an unfair advantage)
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1983273:date=Sep 26 2012, 07:28 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Sep 26 2012, 07:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983273"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Cheating: Altering the game to a state that is not intended by the devs and gives you an advantage over other players.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the devs intended for the game to be the most moddable ever, does that mean that any mods are actually intended alterations of the game rather than cheats?
<!--quoteo(post=1983332:date=Sep 27 2012, 04:48 AM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Max @ Sep 27 2012, 04:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983332"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've added support for client mods in 221. The way it works is very simple: When you connect to a server, the game will load any mod you are subscribed to in Workshop. If that mod fails the consistency check for the server, it will be unloaded.
For example, if you are subscribed to Huze's alien vision mod (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=98879398) and you connect to a server that isn't checking consistency on shaders/DarkVision.fx, you will get his modded alien vision. If the server is checking consistency on that file (which it will by default), then you won't get it. It's totally up to the sever operators whether or not they want to allow people to use certain types of mods.
So crosshair mods, replacement model mods (like KoujiSan's nostalgia pack, which I've been using for testing), even code mods are possible if the server operators allow it. I would expect most server operators to enforce consistency on Lua files, since they opens up cheating possibilities. Post 1.0 we'll be developing ways that we can support client-side code mods that don't allow cheating, but this will take some work. This will be pretty cool if we get it working, since I don't know of any first-person shooter that has done that before.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So basically it would be like running a server with cheats on currently or a non secure VAC server (which is how I assume it would be seen by VAC).
Can you please ensure that it is OBVIOUS and clear which servers dont force consistency checks? (or will it simply be a non secure VAC server)?
I can see a lot of new players getting pwn due to different LUA's and not realising they are playing on a non-vanilla server.
Edit The difference between resolution levels and changing your FOV is that resolutions have "native" FOV's that everyone on that resolution has...chaning your FOV is independant of the resolution.
<!--quoteo(post=1983414:date=Sep 26 2012, 02:44 PM:name=hampton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hampton @ Sep 26 2012, 02:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983414"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your presumptuous and needlessly antagonistic responses won't solve anything, but they will make you seem intolerant and unfriendly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, that is an entirely accurate statement. In that particular instance I was intolerant and unfriendly. That's just how things are sometimes. I wouldn't worry about it so much. I dont have anything against him personally anyhow. In fact, I would even go so far as to say that being tolerant and friendly isn't realistic or even appropriate in all cases. Generally speaking, the tone of a reply is reflective of the post replied to.
<!--quoteo(post=1983369:date=Sep 26 2012, 12:36 PM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Max @ Sep 26 2012, 12:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not at the moment, but we know this is something that people are interested in and will try to get it implemented shortly after 1.0.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks for the work, Max. I think this is something that will be increasingly valuable as the community grows in size.
Something I want to mention is that I really hope UWE can get some sort of system in place to whitelist HUD and crosshair files while blocking all other texture changes.
I really think it would be better if the default settings for servers was a standard thing that didn't need to messed with. In source you had this setting sv_pure that blocked texture changes etc. but the problem was that by default it was off and not many admins turned it on, so on the majority of servers material hacks were usable. Then some admins would ban everything and even simple hud changes wouldn't be allowed on those servers. The best servers whitelisted the hud while blocking any files that could be used for shenanigans, but those were rare.
This led to a different situation on every server you played on and it was a pain in the ass.
I believe that leaving the textures out of the consistency checks is just allowing people to use pink skulks and other dodgy stuff. But I'm also afraid that some admins will recognise this and by blocking them they will also stop everyone from using their preferred crosshair or simplified hud. It makes it a pain for the players. I just want to be able to use my simple dot crosshair and allow others to do the same without worrying about people modifying other textures to gain an advantage.
I really think the ideal solution is for UWE to whitlist the HUD files by default and block all other textures, so that admins don't need to change anything unless they absolutely want to stop people editing the HUD.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Just a thought here, but would it be possible to use the Steam Workshop in a way to whitelist certain mods? And perhaps have a competitive server flag to disable everything besides HuD mods, including Steam Workshop whitelisted mods that could potentially be frowned upon for competitive purposes?
<!--quoteo(post=1983429:date=Sep 26 2012, 06:29 PM:name=FrankerZ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FrankerZ @ Sep 26 2012, 06:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983429"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this is a game where the alien and the marines are trying really hard to get out of the FOV of their opponent to confuse them, a 5 degree advantage is very unfair. When you're fighting someone you shouldn't have to ask yourself : I wonder what his FOV is?
In this game each class is given a very precise and particular FOV for balance purpose. There's a reason why the skulk has 10% more FOV than marine. If you can get that 10% on your marine by modifying your config its unfair.
Also, I think if everybody was running at like 150 FOV, it would completely break the gameplay that's intended, let alone when 1 guy gets it and everybody else doesn't.
I wouldnt say I'm agaisnt people going for a lower FOV than the standard or the maximum allowed, but people who go above that should realize they're cheating IMO (gaining an unfair advantage)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm guessing that the 221 FOV slider will preserve the relative differences between lifeforms. So a skulk will always have a wider FOV than a marine who has their FOV slider set to the same value.
A marine with FOV slider on max could still end up with a wider FOV than a skulk with FOV slider on minimum, though.
I agree with you that it does alter the balance a little, but FOV is one of those issues that PC gamers care so passionately about (even more than "PRESS START" or "SAVING - DO NOT SWITCH OFF YOUR COMPUTER"), that making it adjustable is basically mandatory for any multiplayer FPS game that wants to be taken seriously.
<!--quoteo(post=1983565:date=Sep 27 2012, 05:11 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Sep 27 2012, 05:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983565"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just a thought here, but would it be possible to use the Steam Workshop in a way to whitelist certain mods? And perhaps have a competitive server flag to disable everything besides HuD mods, including Steam Workshop whitelisted mods that could potentially be frowned upon for competitive purposes?
Or is the Workshop lacking that sort of stuff?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem I see with that is it might mean that you need to check every crosshair/hud mod and allow them individually. If a server hasn't allowed your particular hud then forget it. It's not as simple as allowing 2-3 mods because everyone has their own crosshair/hud preference.
My view on is that if I want to have a big smiley face for my crosshair then I should be allowed to do that. Why should a server admin dictate what crosshair or hud I'm allowed to use? Only textures that are actually part of the 3d world should be blocked.
They would need to be checked not only once, but everytime there is a new update. What would stop somebody to put lots of hacky stuff in a hud mod after its on a whitelist? (it gets automatically updated on the server and clients with steamworks)
This seems all very difficult to manage, not only do you need to look at added files... but directly inspect code every update. (since a harmless example.lua could be legit at first, updated with hacky crap, and then updated back to be legit again, and nobody might find out... Even if somebody might find out - you can not ban anyone. (the guy behind the mod could have been hacked or whatever, and users might not have known... )
<!--quoteo(post=1983434:date=Sep 27 2012, 12:39 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Sep 27 2012, 12:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983434"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the devs intended for the game to be the most moddable ever, does that mean that any mods are actually intended alterations of the game rather than cheats?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. But the devs are also implementing a consistency check. That means, that client-mods are not intended. At least on servers that have this consistency check activated.
I will explain my examples in more detail. - The FOV-Example was (as you could read in my last sentence) only oriented to the lua-changes. I'm ok with an option. - As onos the tip of your horn marks your hit-zone. But the horn is moving when you attack. I find myself often disoriented by that moving thing and have problems to aim while consecutive attacking. With a simple dot in the middle it would be much easier = advantage. Not to mention that the parasite crosshair is huge and definitely more difficult to aim with than a dot. - On the sound-issue. Some sounds make it difficult to hear incoming skulks. No matter if it is the low-health-muffle, a repaired power node or the action-music. If you don't have this distracting sound effects, it is an advantage. - Disabling the fog, can be a huge advantage too. If it is allowed in the options of the game, than ok. Everybody can change it easily. Also if there is a graphic feature that sets you on a disadvantage if you activate it, than this is a complete other problem, which the devs should think about. - I think, on the other two examples most people will agree with me.
All this points may be only little changes and little advantages. But in the sum you get a lot of situations in which you have an advantage over the normal not-lua-editing player. And as I wrote, this is cheating in my eyes. You should have fair and equal conditions for every player (at least as close as possible) and not actively altering the game to get more of an advantage against the other players.
I'm also curious why nobody has something to say about the fact that we are all beta testers. And that we should voice problems with the game instead of hiding them personally to get an advantage over other players. (Best example is the menu mod. If this would not have existed, the menu would be so often discussed, that they had to improve it months ago.)
@beep: It makes me sad, that you couldn't understand my post. Also your excuse of being reflective is wrong. I neither insulted anybody with my post, nor was I aggressive. I just expressed my opinion about what I think is cheating. Some of the points may be common sense, other are obviously discuss-able. But for me, they are all the same. That you got aggressive and insulting only shows me, that you feel yourself caught. I think you got yourself an advantage by editing the lua's and now rejecting to accept that the advantage you gained by that is cheating in the eyes of some others.
<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->Menumod is a terrible example, Necro. Most of those features are standards and shouldn't have even have to be yelled about every four seconds to get it done, they were noted several times by plenty of people early on anyways. The mod should be an example of how the menu should be functioning, if they decided to wait on implementing those features that's their choice and fault, nobody else's. I highly doubt the devs aren't aware of such a widely used and long running mod. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1983603:date=Sep 27 2012, 10:32 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Sep 27 2012, 10:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983603"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm also curious why nobody has something to say about the fact that we are all beta testers. And that we should voice problems with the game instead of hiding them personally to get an advantage over other players. (Best example is the menu mod. If this would not have existed, the menu would be so often discussed, that they had to improve it months ago.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The normal menus aren't that good, the server browser sucks and the control options are lacking. This has been discussed often and to a great length here, and there is simply no way the menu is in it's current state just because the devs are not aware of the issue. Wtf. It is one of the most common gripes here. The only explanation is that it is this way since the devs have chosen to ignore the issue so far and have done other, arguably more important stuff for the game. Meanwhile the Menumod has made the menus usable, the server browser usable and the inputs usable. Menumod <3
<!--quoteo(post=1983420:date=Sep 26 2012, 10:53 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Sep 26 2012, 10:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983420"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like TF2 wasn't ready when they sold it.....
It's a novel idea, release a playable game, then constantly improve and update it over time. Some people think they are being sold half an unfinished game, and some people realise that a game is never truly finished. Having an arbitrary v1, that's it game is done mentality is not part of UWE's make-up. They are after all from modding roots, and mods need constant updating over time, so it is not surprising they chose this route :)
What is surprising is the fact that UWE have always said this from day 1, and you are questioning it :) It's not like it's anything new :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Potentially, but there were no core missing aspects to TF2 when it was released. Every class had a full set of weapons and capabilities and fully fleshed out gameplay, thats not the case for NS2. Onos and gorge for instance have no 2nd and 3rd hive abilities respectively. Exo is missing its railgun etc. Additionally the engine is hardly in a good state at the moment, look at how many performance complaints there are. Skulk movement keeps being changed much to the dislike of the community, with seemingly no direction to it.These are all core gameplay elements which need to be in place for 1.0, 1.0 is when alot of people who preordered and were unhappy or who just knew about the game and thought it was interesting but didnt get in will come back to see how things are, if its not up to scratch then the player base wont grow much at all, for a multiplayer only game that spells a death sentence.
Ok, I voiced that wrong. The menumod is outstanding and has nothing to do with the cheating topic. But we need it to be official. I don't get why it isn't. Nor why we stuck with a very slim menu at all. (Changes like scrollwheel for the server browser, took ages to implement.)
While I'm sure too, that the devs know about it, I think with more people voicing that they need to make this mod official, the game could be better as it is now.
<!--quoteo(post=1983611:date=Sep 27 2012, 09:24 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Sep 27 2012, 09:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, I voiced that wrong. The menumod is outstanding and has nothing to do with the cheating topic. But we need it to be official. I don't get why it isn't. Nor why we stuck with a very slim menu at all. (Changes like scrollwheel for the server browser, took ages to implement.)
While I'm sure too, that the devs know about it, I think with more people voicing that they need to make this mod official, the game could be better as it is now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also want a join when slot available option for full servers. I like playing on a specific server because of the people who commonly play there but its full most of the time, I can either spend half an hour rrefreshing the menu or hop in a game and look at the end of it
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
Menumod gets mentioned and endorsed in plenty of threads. Every single thread about last used weapon, windowed no border, the server browser, additional graphical options, useful keybinds, auto retry and chat history. If it was publicised any more a new sub forum specific to the mod would need to be created where people discuss how great it is.
<!--quoteo(post=1983603:date=Sep 27 2012, 12:32 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Sep 27 2012, 12:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983603"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@beep: It makes me sad, that you couldn't understand my post. Also your excuse of being reflective is wrong. I neither insulted anybody with my post, nor was I aggressive. I just expressed my opinion about what I think is cheating. Some of the points may be common sense, other are obviously discuss-able. But for me, they are all the same. That you got aggressive and insulting only shows me, that you feel yourself caught. I think you got yourself an advantage by editing the lua's and now rejecting to accept that the advantage you gained by that is cheating in the eyes of some others.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I havent edited anything in my game at all. Why are you accusing me of cheating now too? How could I possibly interpret your posts otherwise?
I'm sorry it makes you sad but I felt the need to defend many of my friends who are very good players who do not cheat. Not a big deal. If that wasnt your intention with that post then please explain yourself better.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Actually let's not have this conflict in here _Necro_ and bEEb, please take it into the realm of PM's instead -Kouji San<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
can we have a option to turn off the holograms, atm I have them removed from the game files because they annoy the crap out of me such as the map in veil
<!--quoteo(post=1983704:date=Sep 27 2012, 07:54 AM:name=Kouji San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji San @ Sep 27 2012, 07:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Actually let's not have this conflict in here _Necro_ and bEEb, please take it into the realm of PM's instead -Kouji San<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1983066:date=Sep 25 2012, 06:21 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Sep 25 2012, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really why? I am sorry but I feel FOV should be something that everyone has the same (why can some people see more than others?) So will FOV fall into consistency check like with every other game? I know a lot of people in TFC cried when FOV was forced but did wonders for competitive play.
You admit that is a file/variable used to "easily cheat by default" yet make it easier to adjust? Sorry this seems silly.
FOV is something that has not been modifiable in most game for over 6 years (memory is not what it once was) and there is a reason why which you seem to know but ignore.
Sorry but whitewalls, FOV changes etc are all considered low level hacking in any comp I played in...FOV should only ever be changable with server set to having cheats on. If you must allow for FOV changes then make them only accesable when ssv_cheats are on. Otherwise how will players know this server allows marines to have +50 degree FOV (if the player changes it)? VERY UN-NOOB friendly to allow these sort of advantages.
aking something moddable is one thing...but FOV changes are simply hacks. Halflife is the most modded game but its FOV was not changeable in any game I played in last 6 years (DoD, TFC,TF2, CS etc).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> FOV in all GoldSRC and Source games is easily changed. (CS:S and TF2 both have FOV sliders in the options menu.) Many other shooters also have FOV sliders.
Please watch this video to learn more about FOV, and why it is a good idea to have options for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1984065:date=Sep 28 2012, 03:54 PM:name=RustInPieces)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RustInPieces @ Sep 28 2012, 03:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1984065"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->FOV in all GoldSRC and Source games is easily changed. (CS:S and TF2 both have FOV sliders in the options menu.) Many other shooters also have FOV sliders.
Please watch this video to learn more about FOV, and why it is a good idea to have options for it.
edit: oops. ScardyBob already posted this. I'm still reading through the topic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Up to 90...and all classes have same default FOV...not the case in NS. Also the level of change you could do prior to vac was much greater (110-130deg)...almost 50% increase on default.
outside of good native resolutions you should not need to have changeable FOV (though different resolutions might have slightly dif FOV's)
<!--quoteo(post=1984065:date=Sep 28 2012, 02:54 PM:name=RustInPieces)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RustInPieces @ Sep 28 2012, 02:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1984065"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->FOV in all GoldSRC and Source games is easily changed. (CS:S and TF2 both have FOV sliders in the options menu.) Many other shooters also have FOV sliders.
Please watch this video to learn more about FOV, and why it is a good idea to have options for it.
edit: oops. ScardyBob already posted this. I'm still reading through the topic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And i'd quote it right back at you to show that you <b>don't</b> necessarily need modifiable FOV at all. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blZUao2jTGA&t=8m17s" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blZUao2jTGA&t=8m17s</a> Reasonable FOV for pc is 90-95, which is exactly what NS2 runs default (with skulk up to 105). Competitive cs ran locked at 90 FOV. I dont mean to emphasise 'competitive' as much as i do 'fair'.
There are two very valid sides to this arguement that still need to compromise. 1) Having a higher FOV than someone else is an advantage. This can most often than not be an unfair advantage. Also, too high an FOV can change gameplay in unintended ways. 2) Having an FOV too high or too low can make someone sick.
If we set the default at 95 but allow people to increase it to say 120, some people <b>will</b> choose FOV values lower than 120 because of personal preference. What you have then is people who can tolerate higher FOV's having unfair advantages over people who cannot. In a min/max setting, it becomes a race to see who can play with their monitor closest to their face.
I feel like the arguement for FOV sliders/modding has become some unthinking popular fashion, without understanding the context in which pc gamers were demanding FOV sliders in the first place (bad console ports with FOVs unreflective of pc monitor distances).
Basically to tie it in with the topic, if i ever start up a server and want to have it taken seriously, you can sure as hell bet i'll be setting forced consistency on FOV (90-105 as per currently values) even if i have to mod in/out this 'fov slider' business UWE is going on about.
With regards to menumod, it's possible to run a mod in the main menu, even if it will be disabled when you connect to a server that disallows that mod. So consistency checking doesn't mean you won't be able to use the main menu features of menumod. However it will probably need some adjustments to play nicely with Workshop.
Comments
If you mean "altering the game in a way that is not intended or gives an unfair advantage", I'd agree. Here's my 2c:
Using a custom crosshair isn't cheating by my definition if anyone may do so, nor is altering FOV, a GUI menu is a convenience, not consent.
Unless the sounds being modified or removed are restricted, doing with them as you please isn't unfair.
I'm neutral on fog.
Altering a model to be pink, purple, white, gray or any other color or combination thereof isn't unfair if the files aren't restricted.
If textures aren't purposefully transparent and aren't meant to be edited, I'm in agreement.
<!--quoteo(post=1983321:date=Sep 26 2012, 09:20 AM:name=bEEb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bEEb @ Sep 26 2012, 09:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983321"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Thats ridiculous. Its the center of your screen. Everyone knows that. Whats the difference between a crosshair or a piece of tape?
2. If everyone has the same option then how is it cheating? In build 221 we have a FOV slider and you still think its cheating????
3. Duh
4. Yeah we already know that.
5. Really? Are you trolling? No one here would disagree that changing the color of a skulk is cheating.
6. Now you're just being a ######.
You are arguing about points that no one has an issue with. Also your vague accusation that good players all must be cheating is a little insulting and frankly not very smart. Do you really believe that?
The fact is that 98% of what the posters in this thread are arguing FOR are basic toggleable options that exist in MANY games already. i.e, FOV slider.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with all of the judgements Necro made at face value, however even if myself and anyone else with contrary opinions were to join in agreement, the prevalence of an opinion would never equate to an absolute, unquestionable verity that invokes the misconduct of "trolling" at the first sign of discord. I have no problem understanding and accepting that he is entitled to his opinion, why is this difficult for you? Your presumptuous and needlessly antagonistic responses won't solve anything, but they will make you seem intolerant and unfriendly.
I'm quite sure that this has been known for years now. They are not going to shove the game out and forget it, they are going to support NS2 for a long time. There will be new content; maps, weapons, features and bug fixes. This has been their plan and they have been quite open with it.
Like TF2 wasn't ready when they sold it.....
It's a novel idea, release a playable game, then constantly improve and update it over time. Some people think they are being sold half an unfinished game, and some people realise that a game is never truly finished. Having an arbitrary v1, that's it game is done mentality is not part of UWE's make-up. They are after all from modding roots, and mods need constant updating over time, so it is not surprising they chose this route :)
What is surprising is the fact that UWE have always said this from day 1, and you are questioning it :) It's not like it's anything new :)
In this game each class is given a very precise and particular FOV for balance purpose. There's a reason why the skulk has 10% more FOV than marine. If you can get that 10% on your marine by modifying your config its unfair.
Also, I think if everybody was running at like 150 FOV, it would completely break the gameplay that's intended, let alone when 1 guy gets it and everybody else doesn't.
I wouldnt say I'm agaisnt people going for a lower FOV than the standard or the maximum allowed, but people who go above that should realize they're cheating IMO (gaining an unfair advantage)
If the devs intended for the game to be the most moddable ever, does that mean that any mods are actually intended alterations of the game rather than cheats?
For example, if you are subscribed to Huze's alien vision mod (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=98879398) and you connect to a server that isn't checking consistency on shaders/DarkVision.fx, you will get his modded alien vision. If the server is checking consistency on that file (which it will by default), then you won't get it. It's totally up to the sever operators whether or not they want to allow people to use certain types of mods.
So crosshair mods, replacement model mods (like KoujiSan's nostalgia pack, which I've been using for testing), even code mods are possible if the server operators allow it. I would expect most server operators to enforce consistency on Lua files, since they opens up cheating possibilities. Post 1.0 we'll be developing ways that we can support client-side code mods that don't allow cheating, but this will take some work. This will be pretty cool if we get it working, since I don't know of any first-person shooter that has done that before.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So basically it would be like running a server with cheats on currently or a non secure VAC server (which is how I assume it would be seen by VAC).
Can you please ensure that it is OBVIOUS and clear which servers dont force consistency checks? (or will it simply be a non secure VAC server)?
I can see a lot of new players getting pwn due to different LUA's and not realising they are playing on a non-vanilla server.
Edit
The difference between resolution levels and changing your FOV is that resolutions have "native" FOV's that everyone on that resolution has...chaning your FOV is independant of the resolution.
Yes, that is an entirely accurate statement. In that particular instance I was intolerant and unfriendly. That's just how things are sometimes. I wouldn't worry about it so much. I dont have anything against him personally anyhow. In fact, I would even go so far as to say that being tolerant and friendly isn't realistic or even appropriate in all cases. Generally speaking, the tone of a reply is reflective of the post replied to.
Thanks for the work, Max. I think this is something that will be increasingly valuable as the community grows in size.
I really think it would be better if the default settings for servers was a standard thing that didn't need to messed with. In source you had this setting sv_pure that blocked texture changes etc. but the problem was that by default it was off and not many admins turned it on, so on the majority of servers material hacks were usable. Then some admins would ban everything and even simple hud changes wouldn't be allowed on those servers. The best servers whitelisted the hud while blocking any files that could be used for shenanigans, but those were rare.
This led to a different situation on every server you played on and it was a pain in the ass.
I believe that leaving the textures out of the consistency checks is just allowing people to use pink skulks and other dodgy stuff. But I'm also afraid that some admins will recognise this and by blocking them they will also stop everyone from using their preferred crosshair or simplified hud. It makes it a pain for the players. I just want to be able to use my simple dot crosshair and allow others to do the same without worrying about people modifying other textures to gain an advantage.
I really think the ideal solution is for UWE to whitlist the HUD files by default and block all other textures, so that admins don't need to change anything unless they absolutely want to stop people editing the HUD.
Or is the Workshop lacking that sort of stuff?
In this game each class is given a very precise and particular FOV for balance purpose. There's a reason why the skulk has 10% more FOV than marine. If you can get that 10% on your marine by modifying your config its unfair.
Also, I think if everybody was running at like 150 FOV, it would completely break the gameplay that's intended, let alone when 1 guy gets it and everybody else doesn't.
I wouldnt say I'm agaisnt people going for a lower FOV than the standard or the maximum allowed, but people who go above that should realize they're cheating IMO (gaining an unfair advantage)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm guessing that the 221 FOV slider will preserve the relative differences between lifeforms. So a skulk will always have a wider FOV than a marine who has their FOV slider set to the same value.
A marine with FOV slider on max could still end up with a wider FOV than a skulk with FOV slider on minimum, though.
I agree with you that it does alter the balance a little, but FOV is one of those issues that PC gamers care so passionately about (even more than "PRESS START" or "SAVING - DO NOT SWITCH OFF YOUR COMPUTER"), that making it adjustable is basically mandatory for any multiplayer FPS game that wants to be taken seriously.
Or is the Workshop lacking that sort of stuff?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem I see with that is it might mean that you need to check every crosshair/hud mod and allow them individually. If a server hasn't allowed your particular hud then forget it. It's not as simple as allowing 2-3 mods because everyone has their own crosshair/hud preference.
My view on is that if I want to have a big smiley face for my crosshair then I should be allowed to do that. Why should a server admin dictate what crosshair or hud I'm allowed to use? Only textures that are actually part of the 3d world should be blocked.
This seems all very difficult to manage, not only do you need to look at added files... but directly inspect code every update. (since a harmless example.lua could be legit at first, updated with hacky crap, and then updated back to be legit again, and nobody might find out...
Even if somebody might find out - you can not ban anyone. (the guy behind the mod could have been hacked or whatever, and users might not have known... )
Yes. But the devs are also implementing a consistency check. That means, that client-mods are not intended. At least on servers that have this consistency check activated.
I will explain my examples in more detail.
- The FOV-Example was (as you could read in my last sentence) only oriented to the lua-changes. I'm ok with an option.
- As onos the tip of your horn marks your hit-zone. But the horn is moving when you attack. I find myself often disoriented by that moving thing and have problems to aim while consecutive attacking. With a simple dot in the middle it would be much easier = advantage. Not to mention that the parasite crosshair is huge and definitely more difficult to aim with than a dot.
- On the sound-issue. Some sounds make it difficult to hear incoming skulks. No matter if it is the low-health-muffle, a repaired power node or the action-music. If you don't have this distracting sound effects, it is an advantage.
- Disabling the fog, can be a huge advantage too. If it is allowed in the options of the game, than ok. Everybody can change it easily. Also if there is a graphic feature that sets you on a disadvantage if you activate it, than this is a complete other problem, which the devs should think about.
- I think, on the other two examples most people will agree with me.
All this points may be only little changes and little advantages. But in the sum you get a lot of situations in which you have an advantage over the normal not-lua-editing player. And as I wrote, this is cheating in my eyes. You should have fair and equal conditions for every player (at least as close as possible) and not actively altering the game to get more of an advantage against the other players.
I'm also curious why nobody has something to say about the fact that we are all beta testers. And that we should voice problems with the game instead of hiding them personally to get an advantage over other players. (Best example is the menu mod. If this would not have existed, the menu would be so often discussed, that they had to improve it months ago.)
@beep: It makes me sad, that you couldn't understand my post. Also your excuse of being reflective is wrong. I neither insulted anybody with my post, nor was I aggressive. I just expressed my opinion about what I think is cheating. Some of the points may be common sense, other are obviously discuss-able. But for me, they are all the same. That you got aggressive and insulting only shows me, that you feel yourself caught. I think you got yourself an advantage by editing the lua's and now rejecting to accept that the advantage you gained by that is cheating in the eyes of some others.
The normal menus aren't that good, the server browser sucks and the control options are lacking. This has been discussed often and to a great length here, and there is simply no way the menu is in it's current state just because the devs are not aware of the issue. Wtf. It is one of the most common gripes here. The only explanation is that it is this way since the devs have chosen to ignore the issue so far and have done other, arguably more important stuff for the game. Meanwhile the Menumod has made the menus usable, the server browser usable and the inputs usable. Menumod <3
It's a novel idea, release a playable game, then constantly improve and update it over time. Some people think they are being sold half an unfinished game, and some people realise that a game is never truly finished. Having an arbitrary v1, that's it game is done mentality is not part of UWE's make-up. They are after all from modding roots, and mods need constant updating over time, so it is not surprising they chose this route :)
What is surprising is the fact that UWE have always said this from day 1, and you are questioning it :) It's not like it's anything new :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Potentially, but there were no core missing aspects to TF2 when it was released. Every class had a full set of weapons and capabilities and fully fleshed out gameplay, thats not the case for NS2. Onos and gorge for instance have no 2nd and 3rd hive abilities respectively. Exo is missing its railgun etc. Additionally the engine is hardly in a good state at the moment, look at how many performance complaints there are. Skulk movement keeps being changed much to the dislike of the community, with seemingly no direction to it.These are all core gameplay elements which need to be in place for 1.0, 1.0 is when alot of people who preordered and were unhappy or who just knew about the game and thought it was interesting but didnt get in will come back to see how things are, if its not up to scratch then the player base wont grow much at all, for a multiplayer only game that spells a death sentence.
While I'm sure too, that the devs know about it, I think with more people voicing that they need to make this mod official, the game could be better as it is now.
While I'm sure too, that the devs know about it, I think with more people voicing that they need to make this mod official, the game could be better as it is now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also want a join when slot available option for full servers. I like playing on a specific server because of the people who commonly play there but its full most of the time, I can either spend half an hour rrefreshing the menu or hop in a game and look at the end of it
I havent edited anything in my game at all. Why are you accusing me of cheating now too? How could I possibly interpret your posts otherwise?
I'm sorry it makes you sad but I felt the need to defend many of my friends who are very good players who do not cheat. Not a big deal. If that wasnt your intention with that post then please explain yourself better.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Actually let's not have this conflict in here _Necro_ and bEEb, please take it into the realm of PM's instead -Kouji San<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Deal.
I am sorry but I feel FOV should be something that everyone has the same (why can some people see more than others?)
So will FOV fall into consistency check like with every other game?
I know a lot of people in TFC cried when FOV was forced but did wonders for competitive play.
You admit that is a file/variable used to "easily cheat by default" yet make it easier to adjust?
Sorry this seems silly.
FOV is something that has not been modifiable in most game for over 6 years (memory is not what it once was) and there is a reason why which you seem to know but ignore.
Sorry but whitewalls, FOV changes etc are all considered low level hacking in any comp I played in...FOV should only ever be changable with server set to having cheats on. If you must allow for FOV changes then make them only accesable when ssv_cheats are on.
Otherwise how will players know this server allows marines to have +50 degree FOV (if the player changes it)?
VERY UN-NOOB friendly to allow these sort of advantages.
aking something moddable is one thing...but FOV changes are simply hacks.
Halflife is the most modded game but its FOV was not changeable in any game I played in last 6 years (DoD, TFC,TF2, CS etc).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FOV in all GoldSRC and Source games is easily changed. (CS:S and TF2 both have FOV sliders in the options menu.) Many other shooters also have FOV sliders.
Please watch this video to learn more about FOV, and why it is a good idea to have options for it.
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blZUao2jTGA&t=0m50s" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blZUao2jTGA&t=0m50s</a>
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1XsPYPGcl0" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1XsPYPGcl0</a>
edit: oops. ScardyBob already posted this. I'm still reading through the topic.
Please watch this video to learn more about FOV, and why it is a good idea to have options for it.
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blZUao2jTGA&t=0m50s" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blZUao2jTGA&t=0m50s</a>
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1XsPYPGcl0" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1XsPYPGcl0</a>
edit: oops. ScardyBob already posted this. I'm still reading through the topic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Up to 90...and all classes have same default FOV...not the case in NS.
Also the level of change you could do prior to vac was much greater (110-130deg)...almost 50% increase on default.
outside of good native resolutions you should not need to have changeable FOV (though different resolutions might have slightly dif FOV's)
Please watch this video to learn more about FOV, and why it is a good idea to have options for it.
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blZUao2jTGA&t=0m50s" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blZUao2jTGA&t=0m50s</a>
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1XsPYPGcl0" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1XsPYPGcl0</a>
edit: oops. ScardyBob already posted this. I'm still reading through the topic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And i'd quote it right back at you to show that you <b>don't</b> necessarily need modifiable FOV at all. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blZUao2jTGA&t=8m17s" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blZUao2jTGA&t=8m17s</a>
Reasonable FOV for pc is 90-95, which is exactly what NS2 runs default (with skulk up to 105). Competitive cs ran locked at 90 FOV. I dont mean to emphasise 'competitive' as much as i do 'fair'.
There are two very valid sides to this arguement that still need to compromise.
1) Having a higher FOV than someone else is an advantage. This can most often than not be an unfair advantage. Also, too high an FOV can change gameplay in unintended ways.
2) Having an FOV too high or too low can make someone sick.
If we set the default at 95 but allow people to increase it to say 120, some people <b>will</b> choose FOV values lower than 120 because of personal preference. What you have then is people who can tolerate higher FOV's having unfair advantages over people who cannot. In a min/max setting, it becomes a race to see who can play with their monitor closest to their face.
I feel like the arguement for FOV sliders/modding has become some unthinking popular fashion, without understanding the context in which pc gamers were demanding FOV sliders in the first place (bad console ports with FOVs unreflective of pc monitor distances).
Basically to tie it in with the topic, if i ever start up a server and want to have it taken seriously, you can sure as hell bet i'll be setting forced consistency on FOV (90-105 as per currently values) even if i have to mod in/out this 'fov slider' business UWE is going on about.
The fov should be locked to certain values, depending on which resolution one plays at.