<!--quoteo(post=1987156:date=Oct 4 2012, 09:24 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 4 2012, 09:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987156"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're right to some degree, Wheeee, but your suggestion doesn't actually make early hive2 any less desireable for the aliens, it just makes it even easier for aliens to get back from their low-res slump once the second hive is up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're right, but at least it introduces an option of upgrades first vs hive first. whether the choice between hive and upgrades is an equal one is another balance discussion entirely. right now there isn't even that choice. optimally i'd like to have 'rt-capping-first' as an also-viable strategy; unfortunately due to cyst/infestation/non-gorge-building mechanics, this is pretty much out of the question.
oldassgamersJoin Date: 2011-02-02Member: 80033Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited October 2012
I've always wondered why be able to drop a hive without investation? All other buildings dropes requires infestation, so why not the hive to? Feels more logic to drop cyst to the second hive area and then once infestation is up you can drop a hive. This would prevent quick hive drop :D But now when writing this, I slowly think this can cause other issues? Or What do you think?
<!--quoteo(post=1987175:date=Oct 4 2012, 07:44 PM:name=oldassgamers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oldassgamers @ Oct 4 2012, 07:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987175"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've always wondered why be able to drop a hive without investation? All other buildings dropes requires infestation, so why not the hive to? Feels more logic to drop cyst to the second hive area and then once infestation is up you can drop a hive. This would prevent quick hive drop :D But now when writing this, I slowly think this can cause other issues? Or What do you think?
The problem isn't that the quick hive drop exists. the problem being discussed is that currently quick hive drop is the only way aliens have a chance of winning in high level play.
Just nerfing quick hive drop by requiring cysts won't help the problem, it will just make the aliens bad. You would be nerfing their one good strategy, which isn't even over powered. The result is just a mess of bad strategies.
Making hives require infestation for a drop would perhaps delay it and make it slightly more costly, but seriously - it takes about 10 seconds to cyst to a hive location, and costs 10 or even less res (depending on map). OK, it will delay the drop by a minute at most, and introduce some minor tactical play (defending the cyst chain between the starting hive and the second one), but in reality it won't do that much. I am open to trying that idea though, sounds cool.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
The core problem seems to be that game-critical alien tech (leap, blink, bile) can only be unlocked with two hives, such that the best move is to drop that hive as early as possible since it 1) gets you the critical tech faster and 2) marines are better able to kill hives as the game progresses. As such, I see two main methods to prevent an early 2nd hive drop:
<b>1). Put in some artificial hive drop delay</b> Requiring a tech node to be infested or giving hive drops a delay counter (that starts at zero at the beginning of the game) would be examples of this.
<b>2). Include mechanisms in which critical alien tech can be researched at one hive</b> Potential example mechanics would be things such as allowing tier2 tech researchable on one hive for double the cost or treating alien ability tech like alien upgrade tech (i.e. you choose an alien ability tech path for the hive, such as fade, and can only research fade abilities at that hive)
<!--quoteo(post=1987199:date=Oct 5 2012, 03:04 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Oct 5 2012, 03:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987199"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>2). Include mechanisms in which critical alien tech can be researched at one hive</b> Potential example mechanics would be things such as allowing tier2 tech researchable on one hive for double the cost or treating alien ability tech like alien upgrade tech (i.e. you choose an alien ability tech path for the hive, such as fade, and can only research fade abilities at that hive)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> THis seems the basis for a starting point..but as has been said before in this thread...why not simply allow leap, bile, blink etc at hive 1 but make research times 5-8 minutes. This whole idea that things need to research quickly is very limiting forces things like 2nd hive being required for leap (which is required to kill a marine more than 5 min in). Make the tech research-able at hive 1 just increase research time by 3-4 minutes.
<!--quoteo(post=1987199:date=Oct 5 2012, 05:04 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Oct 5 2012, 05:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987199"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>1). Put in some artificial hive drop delay</b> Requiring a tech node to be infested or giving hive drops a delay counter (that starts at zero at the beginning of the game) would be examples of this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
weve tried those and they both had their own problems remember ?
anyways how about we allow all abilites at hive 1 and just give each ability 3 tiers ???
So
Leap 1 at hive 1 ( a mini leap) Leap 2 at hive 2 (same as current leap) Leap 3 at hive 3 ( better leap ? :D)
you could do this with all the abilities, this way early abilities arent game breaking, fast hive is still feasible but at the same time you have more options at hive 1. Losing the 2nd hive isnt insta GG, but rather you have lower tier abilities to fall back if you happen to die after you lose your 2nd hive. Aliens, especially skulks, can now scale with the game, tier 3 leap skulks ftw ? :)
<!--quoteo(post=1987177:date=Oct 4 2012, 06:49 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Oct 4 2012, 06:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987177"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem isn't that the quick hive drop exists. the problem being discussed is that currently quick hive drop is the only way aliens have a chance of winning in high level play.
Just nerfing quick hive drop by requiring cysts won't help the problem, it will just make the aliens bad. You would be nerfing their one good strategy, which isn't even over powered. The result is just a mess of bad strategies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly. It's not that fasthive is too good, it's that not going fasthive means you'll lose. Taking away fasthive is not a solution unless one or more alternatives are included, because otherwise Aliens will have 0 total viable strategies.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2). Include mechanisms in which critical alien tech can be researched at one hive Potential example mechanics would be things such as allowing tier2 tech researchable on one hive for double the cost or treating alien ability tech like alien upgrade tech (i.e. you choose an alien ability tech path for the hive, such as fade, and can only research fade abilities at that hive)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is the most important one of all. As long as this doesn't happen, aliens will have to keep focussing on that second hive and a second hive loss will almost always mean a GG. Allowing for such mechanisms will not only make alien strategic play a lot more varied (bigger res income versus quicker map control with a second hive), it will also partially address the huge marine tech advantage currently in the game. (Making them a lot more resilient to a 2nd CC loss than aliens are to 2nd hive loss) I.e there will be a bigger potential comeback, even for aliens, provided they at least manage to hold on to a fair amount of RTs.
It's ridiculous that a 2nd hive currently is the be all - end all tech for aliens, it makes every game play out entirely the same pretty much. Marines have a similar problem with phase gates I'd say, there's just way too much emphasis on that tech, leaving very little room for other strategies. (Thus making marine strategic gameplay incredibly dull)
<!--quoteo(post=1987199:date=Oct 5 2012, 04:04 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Oct 5 2012, 04:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987199"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The core problem seems to be that game-critical alien tech (leap, blink, bile) can only be unlocked with two hives, such that the best move is to drop that hive as early as possible<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem starts with having 'critical tech'. Definitely you're allowed to require something like bilebomb later on in the game, but at the same time all lifeforms should be able to function and contribute with the basic setup they've got. The tech should help aliens to expand their role into new directions, not to allow the role in the first place.
I'm not convinced fast 2nd hive is as necessary as people make it out to be. Especially considering the amount of actual playtesters is currently a minute and insignificant number, certainly not nearly enough required to have fully fleshed out and thoroughly tested the metagame. I've seen plenty of GOOD teams of aliens (as in, actually know how to play to their upgrades' strenghts) succeed by going with upgrades and resource towers before 2nd hive, and with intelligent play and communication being able to hold those resource towers long enough to generate the res for a second hive (and because they have a much better economic start, are able to not only keep their economy moving, but actually pressure marines much earlier). Indeed that's the biggest problem I find with fast hive - you spend MUCH longer with plain, vanilla skulks who have neither upgrades NOR leap until the commander waits out the slow trickle that only two resource towers provide.
The problem as I see it is that most aliens play skulk as though they're a direct combat class 100% of the time, and think gameplay involves rushing headlong at marines down hallways while jumping and biting. Very few players actually make clever use of camouflage, silence, or creep-walking with celerity. But when you get a good team, who actually knows how to use those upgrades and ambush marines by lying in wait en-route to resource towers, it can make all the difference.
I'm not convinced fast 2nd hive provides as much of an advantage as people pretend it does. Perhaps for players who can't conceive of any other strategy than charging face-first at marines with leap, but these people don't strike me as being the type to have fully fleshed out the metagame, nor qualified to make the assertion that "fast hive is best."
<!--quoteo(post=1987422:date=Oct 5 2012, 03:09 PM:name=Burzghash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burzghash @ Oct 5 2012, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not convinced fast 2nd hive is as necessary as people make it out to be. Especially considering the amount of actual playtesters is currently a minute and insignificant number, certainly not nearly enough required to have fully fleshed out and thoroughly tested the metagame. I've seen plenty of GOOD teams of aliens (as in, actually know how to play to their upgrades' strenghts) succeed by going with upgrades and resource towers before 2nd hive, and with intelligent play and communication being able to hold those resource towers long enough to generate the res for a second hive (and because they have a much better economic start, are able to not only keep their economy moving, but actually pressure marines much earlier). Indeed that's the biggest problem I find with fast hive - you spend MUCH longer with plain, vanilla skulks who have neither upgrades NOR leap until the commander waits out the slow trickle that only two resource towers provide.
The problem as I see it is that most aliens play skulk as though they're a direct combat class 100% of the time, and think gameplay involves rushing headlong at marines down hallways while jumping and biting. Very few players actually make clever use of camouflage, silence, or creep-walking with celerity. But when you get a good team, who actually knows how to use those upgrades and ambush marines by lying in wait en-route to resource towers, it can make all the difference.
I'm not convinced fast 2nd hive provides as much of an advantage as people pretend it does. Perhaps for players who can't conceive of any other strategy than charging face-first at marines with leap, but these people don't strike me as being the type to have fully fleshed out the metagame, nor qualified to make the assertion that "fast hive is best."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1987691:date=Oct 5 2012, 08:53 PM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Oct 5 2012, 08:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its a shame you equate pub play with "intelligent" play because otherwise idk??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's not possible to play "intelligently" without acknowledging that with the way things are, the more mature the build becomes, the more pigeonholed aliens are going to be into hive 2 first.
simple reason: marine aim will continue to improve, more streamlined build orders and strategies will be tested and implemented by teams, and more streamlined marine res breakpoints will be found. phase gates, a tier 1 tech, completely negates alien movement advantage, while shotguns, a tier 1 tech, completely negates skulks and to a lesser degree lerks and fades without blink.
meanwhile, on the alien side, skulk has no skill-based-movement to improve, have no viable alternative builds, and are constrained in res gathering expansion by the infestation mechanic.
it is simple logic to conclude that hive 2 is the ONLY way to break out of this mold because it allows skulks and fades to have access to improved movement - allowing the alien team to push back in map control and survive in combat.
put another way, the only way for aliens to successfully repel marines is to close the distance, but at present there is no mechanic which lets a skulk close and make a kill unless the marine makes a mistake, or if the aliens do not significantly outnumber the marines. as time goes on, the marines will make fewer mistakes, yet the aliens will still have no mechanic to approach marines until hive 2 leap.
<!--quoteo(post=1987046:date=Oct 4 2012, 04:25 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 4 2012, 04:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987046"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good thing nobody gives a ###### about competitive play, as the level of teamwork required is not feasible for random players in a pub game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're posting in a thread that's titled: "Always fast 2nd hive?, that's not appropriate for competitive play."
<!--quoteo(post=1987296:date=Oct 5 2012, 06:15 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 5 2012, 06:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987296"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this is the most important one of all. As long as this doesn't happen, aliens will have to keep focussing on that second hive and a second hive loss will almost always mean a GG. Allowing for such mechanisms will not only make alien strategic play a lot more varied (bigger res income versus quicker map control with a second hive), it will also partially address the huge marine tech advantage currently in the game. (Making them a lot more resilient to a 2nd CC loss than aliens are to 2nd hive loss) I.e there will be a bigger potential comeback, even for aliens, provided they at least manage to hold on to a fair amount of RTs.
It's ridiculous that a 2nd hive currently is the be all - end all tech for aliens, it makes every game play out entirely the same pretty much. Marines have a similar problem with phase gates I'd say, there's just way too much emphasis on that tech, leaving very little room for other strategies. (Thus making marine strategic gameplay incredibly dull)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do you think that suggestion does anything to make alien play more varied? The point of second hive is mostly for leap and a second RT. All it is going to do is change: hive->leap into leap.
Allowing leap to be researched on 1 hive isn't a fix to the quick second hive "problem." It will just mean that aliens research leap first in every single game instead of second hive and then leap. This suggestion makes the problem worse.
<!--quoteo(post=1987698:date=Oct 6 2012, 12:14 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Oct 6 2012, 12:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Allowing leap to be researched on 1 hive isn't a fix to the quick second hive "problem." It will just mean that aliens research leap first in every single game instead of second hive and then leap. This suggestion makes the problem worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If research time for leap (blink spores etc) is also changed to say ~5 minute this would mean that an alien khamm can get it right off the bat but it wont be available until the 5+ min mark of the game.
Heck just get creative with the research timer being variable. Say 5 min mark plus 30 sec...so if you research at 4 min mark it will take 90 sec but at 1 min mark it will take 4.5 min. Might be best to do take a similar approach with SG and PG techs on marine side.
Early game is too short IMO...1 maybe 2 encounters (ie ~2 min mark) before marines can get SG...by adding a counter of 5mim - run game time (capped at zero) plus desired build time....
Would address aliens having to get 2nd hive every time....but also prevent leap from being researched and available 45 seconds into the game.
I understand what you're saying but disagree that it addresses the underlying problem of why fast-2nd-hive is considered a problem. Every team is dropping fast second hive in a majority of their games. This leads to every game playing out as aliens trying to turtle on 1-2 RTs and 2 hives until leap is finished and then it can diversify, but usually not. Quick onos before or after upgrade and then RT spam as the onos pushes marines off the map.
Moving leap to 1 hive and having it finish always ~5:30 doesn't change this linear play. It doesn't fix the problem that every game is the same, in fact it guarentees that every game has the exact same leap timing no matter what strategy aliens employ. And given that leap is currently the most important upgrade for aliens early-mid game, you're programming the timings of the game instead of allowing them to be dictated by player choices.
The superfast 1 hive leap is a problem, but so is just increasing the research time to a flat 5 minutes and scaling the research time so it always comes out ~5 minutes. I think the best thing you can do is identify why skulks need leap to compete with base marines and try to help vanilla skulks in a way that won't overpower them with leap. Also, work has to be done to incentivize aliens to try to take and hold RTs. It is really hard to do so currently.
<!--quoteo(post=1987716:date=Oct 6 2012, 01:53 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Oct 6 2012, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987716"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I understand what you're saying but disagree that it addresses the underlying problem of why fast-2nd-hive is considered a problem. Every team is dropping fast second hive in a majority of their games. This leads to every game playing out as aliens trying to turtle on 1-2 RTs and 2 hives until leap is finished and then it can diversify, but usually not. Quick onos before or after upgrade and then RT spam as the onos pushes marines off the map.
Moving leap to 1 hive and having it finish always ~5:30 doesn't change this linear play. It doesn't fix the problem that every game is the same, in fact it guarentees that every game has the exact same leap timing no matter what strategy aliens employ. And given that leap is currently the most important upgrade for aliens early-mid game, you're programming the timings of the game instead of allowing them to be dictated by player choices.
The superfast 1 hive leap is a problem, but so is just increasing the research time to a flat 5 minutes and scaling the research time so it always comes out ~5 minutes. I think the best thing you can do is identify why skulks need leap to compete with base marines and try to help vanilla skulks in a way that won't overpower them with leap. Also, work has to be done to incentivize aliens to try to take and hold RTs. It is really hard to do so currently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well I think we just differ in how we see the problem, I see unlinking leap to hive frees aliens up to go for RT rather than a hive..it opens up new options rather than removes any. Aliens need leap as they have no real movement advantage over marines and once SG's are up (can be as early as about 2 min in) a skulk without leap will struggle and aliens will simply lose territory and not be able to push, celerity does not offer the same benefit.
Personally I dont think aliens need any more incentive to hold RT's as it is, as thats not the real issue... tthey have issues holding them. Most of which are based aruond these issue; Its hard to get to them to defend quick enough. They require cysts (added cost to deploying) They cant be recycled like extractors (every res counts..especially with cyst costs) All hive rooms have RT's so makes sense to drop a hive and grab that RT (instead of random one) as you also get leap, spores blink etc. So by leaving leap where it is you will not change the preference for 2nd hive over res (unlike marines aliens cant turtle 1 tech point for most of the game...only JP's and exo's are linked to 2nd CC....still get full weapons, armour, arcs, GL's Flamers etc) aliens actually need hives to tech up.
If you read the later part of my last post I said perhaps SG's should also be put on a similar approach (as its the arrival of SG's that really makes it hard for vanilla skulks), by delaying the arrival of SG...you reduce need for leap. The idea I put forward would not mean leap always hit the floor at 5.5 min (just that it could arrive no sooner), the restrictions on marine side would open up options for aliens more as they are no longer trying to compete with marines who bar exo and jp tech up fully on 1 tech point.
Its the fast teching of marines that forces aliens down this fast hive path....slow down research times...look at caps that means research cant be completed before certain times (ie leap will take 30 seconds...plus 5 min - played time)...so 6 min in you can simply research leap in 30 sec...if marines are delayed in teching also this will open up options for aliens.
aliens need hive to keep up with marine tech...thats how the game structure works...the main reason for aliens to tech up is so they dont die from tech'd marines. The current approaches have not worked (ie allowing build at 1 hive, tying to 2nd hive) this is a compromise that allows for a fast hive option or more RT focus...as you will still be able to upgrade your aliens when marines start teching (assuming marine times also "limited")
<!--quoteo(post=1987720:date=Oct 5 2012, 08:15 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Oct 5 2012, 08:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you read the later part of my last post I said perhaps SG's should also be put on a similar approach (as its the arrival of SG's that really makes it hard for vanilla skulks), by delaying the arrival of SG...you reduce need for leap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would argue that at high level play, vanilla marine > vanilla skulk. I certainly weapons 1 or armor 1 marine is substantially better than a skulk. Right now skulks worthless when marines can aim.
We see this in the style of games that get played. Skulks avoid marines for the first 2 minutes in most competitive play, and then go for the CC / Obs / Power node when there is an opening. This is because the only viable way to slow down marine expansion is to spam base rushes to keep them off the field due to constant beaconing. Skulks don't try and engage marines as they spread out across the map.
This because currently rushing is a little too good, combined with skulks getting steam rolled any time they try and push on a marine that is capping nodes.
<!--quoteo(post=1987740:date=Oct 6 2012, 04:12 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Oct 6 2012, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would argue that at high level play, vanilla marine > vanilla skulk. I certainly weapons 1 or armor 1 marine is substantially better than a skulk. Right now skulks worthless when marines can aim.
We see this in the style of games that get played. Skulks avoid marines for the first 2 minutes in most competitive play, and then go for the CC / Obs / Power node when there is an opening. This is because the only viable way to slow down marine expansion is to spam base rushes to keep them off the field due to constant beaconing. Skulks don't try and engage marines as they spread out across the map.
This because currently rushing is a little too good, combined with skulks getting steam rolled any time they try and push on a marine that is capping nodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> High level play a vanilla marine (1v1) is not liekly to survive against a vanilla skulk. Remember vanilla means he has no armour upgrades if you want to compare him to a vanilla skulk as the vanilla skulk has no carapace (so why should the marine get weapons or armour upgrades). The skulk has a slight edge (as long as he doesn't try running down a long hall) and should win most 1v1 battles up to the arrival of a SG (or armour & weapons upgrades...)
Rushing is not too good...marines have no incentive to stay and protect spawn that is all. They generally have little to no fear, RT's are cheap, dont need more than your spawn base so you can mostly rely on people re-spawning instead of having people camp and protect. Its the marines blatant disregard/lack of need for holding a part of the map that creates the base rush issue. This coupled with phase tech at 1 CC, lack of any real speed difference (due to small maps), alien spawn issues. Marines extractors a cheaper, dont require cysts, can be recylced if under attack (and marines...despite phase tech etc cant get there in time).
The reason aliens need 2nd hive is to keep up with marine tech (SG's and Weapon/Armour upgrades)...to be able to compete they need, leap, blink spores & bile bomb. You want to give aliens more options on how to expand...slow down marine tech...make harvesters cheaper and stronger (add recycle aspect to balance out...aliens already get stung with cyst costs).
Comments
you're right, but at least it introduces an option of upgrades first vs hive first. whether the choice between hive and upgrades is an equal one is another balance discussion entirely. right now there isn't even that choice. optimally i'd like to have 'rt-capping-first' as an also-viable strategy; unfortunately due to cyst/infestation/non-gorge-building mechanics, this is pretty much out of the question.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Yeah you ,<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->who's reading this<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->, YOU! :D<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Yeah you ,<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->who's reading this<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->, YOU! :D<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem isn't that the quick hive drop exists. the problem being discussed is that currently quick hive drop is the only way aliens have a chance of winning in high level play.
Just nerfing quick hive drop by requiring cysts won't help the problem, it will just make the aliens bad. You would be nerfing their one good strategy, which isn't even over powered. The result is just a mess of bad strategies.
<b>1). Put in some artificial hive drop delay</b>
Requiring a tech node to be infested or giving hive drops a delay counter (that starts at zero at the beginning of the game) would be examples of this.
<b>2). Include mechanisms in which critical alien tech can be researched at one hive</b>
Potential example mechanics would be things such as allowing tier2 tech researchable on one hive for double the cost or treating alien ability tech like alien upgrade tech (i.e. you choose an alien ability tech path for the hive, such as fade, and can only research fade abilities at that hive)
Potential example mechanics would be things such as allowing tier2 tech researchable on one hive for double the cost or treating alien ability tech like alien upgrade tech (i.e. you choose an alien ability tech path for the hive, such as fade, and can only research fade abilities at that hive)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THis seems the basis for a starting point..but as has been said before in this thread...why not simply allow leap, bile, blink etc at hive 1 but make research times 5-8 minutes.
This whole idea that things need to research quickly is very limiting forces things like 2nd hive being required for leap (which is required to kill a marine more than 5 min in).
Make the tech research-able at hive 1 just increase research time by 3-4 minutes.
Requiring a tech node to be infested or giving hive drops a delay counter (that starts at zero at the beginning of the game) would be examples of this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
weve tried those and they both had their own problems remember ?
anyways how about we allow all abilites at hive 1 and just give each ability 3 tiers ???
So
Leap 1 at hive 1 ( a mini leap)
Leap 2 at hive 2 (same as current leap)
Leap 3 at hive 3 ( better leap ? :D)
you could do this with all the abilities, this way early abilities arent game breaking, fast hive is still feasible but at the same time you have more options at hive 1. Losing the 2nd hive isnt insta GG, but rather you have lower tier abilities to fall back if you happen to die after you lose your 2nd hive. Aliens, especially skulks, can now scale with the game, tier 3 leap skulks ftw ? :)
well thats my solution to this 'problem'
Just nerfing quick hive drop by requiring cysts won't help the problem, it will just make the aliens bad. You would be nerfing their one good strategy, which isn't even over powered. The result is just a mess of bad strategies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. It's not that fasthive is too good, it's that not going fasthive means you'll lose. Taking away fasthive is not a solution unless one or more alternatives are included, because otherwise Aliens will have 0 total viable strategies.
Potential example mechanics would be things such as allowing tier2 tech researchable on one hive for double the cost or treating alien ability tech like alien upgrade tech (i.e. you choose an alien ability tech path for the hive, such as fade, and can only research fade abilities at that hive)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is the most important one of all. As long as this doesn't happen, aliens will have to keep focussing on that second hive and a second hive loss will almost always mean a GG. Allowing for such mechanisms will not only make alien strategic play a lot more varied (bigger res income versus quicker map control with a second hive), it will also partially address the huge marine tech advantage currently in the game. (Making them a lot more resilient to a 2nd CC loss than aliens are to 2nd hive loss) I.e there will be a bigger potential comeback, even for aliens, provided they at least manage to hold on to a fair amount of RTs.
It's ridiculous that a 2nd hive currently is the be all - end all tech for aliens, it makes every game play out entirely the same pretty much. Marines have a similar problem with phase gates I'd say, there's just way too much emphasis on that tech, leaving very little room for other strategies. (Thus making marine strategic gameplay incredibly dull)
The problem starts with having 'critical tech'. Definitely you're allowed to require something like bilebomb later on in the game, but at the same time all lifeforms should be able to function and contribute with the basic setup they've got. The tech should help aliens to expand their role into new directions, not to allow the role in the first place.
The problem as I see it is that most aliens play skulk as though they're a direct combat class 100% of the time, and think gameplay involves rushing headlong at marines down hallways while jumping and biting. Very few players actually make clever use of camouflage, silence, or creep-walking with celerity. But when you get a good team, who actually knows how to use those upgrades and ambush marines by lying in wait en-route to resource towers, it can make all the difference.
I'm not convinced fast 2nd hive provides as much of an advantage as people pretend it does. Perhaps for players who can't conceive of any other strategy than charging face-first at marines with leap, but these people don't strike me as being the type to have fully fleshed out the metagame, nor qualified to make the assertion that "fast hive is best."
The problem as I see it is that most aliens play skulk as though they're a direct combat class 100% of the time, and think gameplay involves rushing headlong at marines down hallways while jumping and biting. Very few players actually make clever use of camouflage, silence, or creep-walking with celerity. But when you get a good team, who actually knows how to use those upgrades and ambush marines by lying in wait en-route to resource towers, it can make all the difference.
I'm not convinced fast 2nd hive provides as much of an advantage as people pretend it does. Perhaps for players who can't conceive of any other strategy than charging face-first at marines with leap, but these people don't strike me as being the type to have fully fleshed out the metagame, nor qualified to make the assertion that "fast hive is best."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
pub play =/= competitive play
Read again.
A miniscule period of time spent on the latest beta patch from a minute community =/= experts.
it's not possible to play "intelligently" without acknowledging that with the way things are, the more mature the build becomes, the more pigeonholed aliens are going to be into hive 2 first.
simple reason: marine aim will continue to improve, more streamlined build orders and strategies will be tested and implemented by teams, and more streamlined marine res breakpoints will be found. phase gates, a tier 1 tech, completely negates alien movement advantage, while shotguns, a tier 1 tech, completely negates skulks and to a lesser degree lerks and fades without blink.
meanwhile, on the alien side, skulk has no skill-based-movement to improve, have no viable alternative builds, and are constrained in res gathering expansion by the infestation mechanic.
it is simple logic to conclude that hive 2 is the ONLY way to break out of this mold because it allows skulks and fades to have access to improved movement - allowing the alien team to push back in map control and survive in combat.
put another way, the only way for aliens to successfully repel marines is to close the distance, but at present there is no mechanic which lets a skulk close and make a kill unless the marine makes a mistake, or if the aliens do not significantly outnumber the marines. as time goes on, the marines will make fewer mistakes, yet the aliens will still have no mechanic to approach marines until hive 2 leap.
You're posting in a thread that's titled: "Always fast 2nd hive?, that's not appropriate for competitive play."
We are talking about competitive play.
It's ridiculous that a 2nd hive currently is the be all - end all tech for aliens, it makes every game play out entirely the same pretty much. Marines have a similar problem with phase gates I'd say, there's just way too much emphasis on that tech, leaving very little room for other strategies. (Thus making marine strategic gameplay incredibly dull)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do you think that suggestion does anything to make alien play more varied? The point of second hive is mostly for leap and a second RT. All it is going to do is change:
hive->leap
into
leap.
Allowing leap to be researched on 1 hive isn't a fix to the quick second hive "problem." It will just mean that aliens research leap first in every single game instead of second hive and then leap. This suggestion makes the problem worse.
If research time for leap (blink spores etc) is also changed to say ~5 minute this would mean that an alien khamm can get it right off the bat but it wont be available until the 5+ min mark of the game.
Heck just get creative with the research timer being variable.
Say 5 min mark plus 30 sec...so if you research at 4 min mark it will take 90 sec but at 1 min mark it will take 4.5 min.
Might be best to do take a similar approach with SG and PG techs on marine side.
Early game is too short IMO...1 maybe 2 encounters (ie ~2 min mark) before marines can get SG...by adding a counter of 5mim - run game time (capped at zero) plus desired build time....
Would address aliens having to get 2nd hive every time....but also prevent leap from being researched and available 45 seconds into the game.
Moving leap to 1 hive and having it finish always ~5:30 doesn't change this linear play. It doesn't fix the problem that every game is the same, in fact it guarentees that every game has the exact same leap timing no matter what strategy aliens employ. And given that leap is currently the most important upgrade for aliens early-mid game, you're programming the timings of the game instead of allowing them to be dictated by player choices.
The superfast 1 hive leap is a problem, but so is just increasing the research time to a flat 5 minutes and scaling the research time so it always comes out ~5 minutes. I think the best thing you can do is identify why skulks need leap to compete with base marines and try to help vanilla skulks in a way that won't overpower them with leap. Also, work has to be done to incentivize aliens to try to take and hold RTs. It is really hard to do so currently.
Moving leap to 1 hive and having it finish always ~5:30 doesn't change this linear play. It doesn't fix the problem that every game is the same, in fact it guarentees that every game has the exact same leap timing no matter what strategy aliens employ. And given that leap is currently the most important upgrade for aliens early-mid game, you're programming the timings of the game instead of allowing them to be dictated by player choices.
The superfast 1 hive leap is a problem, but so is just increasing the research time to a flat 5 minutes and scaling the research time so it always comes out ~5 minutes. I think the best thing you can do is identify why skulks need leap to compete with base marines and try to help vanilla skulks in a way that won't overpower them with leap. Also, work has to be done to incentivize aliens to try to take and hold RTs. It is really hard to do so currently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I think we just differ in how we see the problem, I see unlinking leap to hive frees aliens up to go for RT rather than a hive..it opens up new options rather than removes any.
Aliens need leap as they have no real movement advantage over marines and once SG's are up (can be as early as about 2 min in) a skulk without leap will struggle and aliens will simply lose territory and not be able to push, celerity does not offer the same benefit.
Personally I dont think aliens need any more incentive to hold RT's as it is, as thats not the real issue... tthey have issues holding them. Most of which are based aruond these issue;
Its hard to get to them to defend quick enough.
They require cysts (added cost to deploying)
They cant be recycled like extractors (every res counts..especially with cyst costs)
All hive rooms have RT's so makes sense to drop a hive and grab that RT (instead of random one) as you also get leap, spores blink etc.
So by leaving leap where it is you will not change the preference for 2nd hive over res (unlike marines aliens cant turtle 1 tech point for most of the game...only JP's and exo's are linked to 2nd CC....still get full weapons, armour, arcs, GL's Flamers etc) aliens actually need hives to tech up.
If you read the later part of my last post I said perhaps SG's should also be put on a similar approach (as its the arrival of SG's that really makes it hard for vanilla skulks), by delaying the arrival of SG...you reduce need for leap.
The idea I put forward would not mean leap always hit the floor at 5.5 min (just that it could arrive no sooner), the restrictions on marine side would open up options for aliens more as they are no longer trying to compete with marines who bar exo and jp tech up fully on 1 tech point.
Its the fast teching of marines that forces aliens down this fast hive path....slow down research times...look at caps that means research cant be completed before certain times (ie leap will take 30 seconds...plus 5 min - played time)...so 6 min in you can simply research leap in 30 sec...if marines are delayed in teching also this will open up options for aliens.
aliens need hive to keep up with marine tech...thats how the game structure works...the main reason for aliens to tech up is so they dont die from tech'd marines.
The current approaches have not worked (ie allowing build at 1 hive, tying to 2nd hive) this is a compromise that allows for a fast hive option or more RT focus...as you will still be able to upgrade your aliens when marines start teching (assuming marine times also "limited")
I would argue that at high level play, vanilla marine > vanilla skulk. I certainly weapons 1 or armor 1 marine is substantially better than a skulk. Right now skulks worthless when marines can aim.
We see this in the style of games that get played. Skulks avoid marines for the first 2 minutes in most competitive play, and then go for the CC / Obs / Power node when there is an opening. This is because the only viable way to slow down marine expansion is to spam base rushes to keep them off the field due to constant beaconing. Skulks don't try and engage marines as they spread out across the map.
This because currently rushing is a little too good, combined with skulks getting steam rolled any time they try and push on a marine that is capping nodes.
We see this in the style of games that get played. Skulks avoid marines for the first 2 minutes in most competitive play, and then go for the CC / Obs / Power node when there is an opening. This is because the only viable way to slow down marine expansion is to spam base rushes to keep them off the field due to constant beaconing. Skulks don't try and engage marines as they spread out across the map.
This because currently rushing is a little too good, combined with skulks getting steam rolled any time they try and push on a marine that is capping nodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
High level play a vanilla marine (1v1) is not liekly to survive against a vanilla skulk. Remember vanilla means he has no armour upgrades if you want to compare him to a vanilla skulk as the vanilla skulk has no carapace (so why should the marine get weapons or armour upgrades). The skulk has a slight edge (as long as he doesn't try running down a long hall) and should win most 1v1 battles up to the arrival of a SG (or armour & weapons upgrades...)
Rushing is not too good...marines have no incentive to stay and protect spawn that is all.
They generally have little to no fear, RT's are cheap, dont need more than your spawn base so you can mostly rely on people re-spawning instead of having people camp and protect.
Its the marines blatant disregard/lack of need for holding a part of the map that creates the base rush issue. This coupled with phase tech at 1 CC, lack of any real speed difference (due to small maps), alien spawn issues.
Marines extractors a cheaper, dont require cysts, can be recylced if under attack (and marines...despite phase tech etc cant get there in time).
The reason aliens need 2nd hive is to keep up with marine tech (SG's and Weapon/Armour upgrades)...to be able to compete they need, leap, blink spores & bile bomb.
You want to give aliens more options on how to expand...slow down marine tech...make harvesters cheaper and stronger (add recycle aspect to balance out...aliens already get stung with cyst costs).
We are talking about competitive play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, I'm sorry, do shotguns not exist in pub play?
I don't know. Do pugs really love us?