<!--quoteo(post=1989116:date=Oct 10 2012, 12:37 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Oct 10 2012, 12:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989116"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make it refund 50-75% of lifeform PRes cost upon death and it'd be useful enough to be a viable alternative to adrenaline or celerity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the only way I'd take hyper over adren or cele.
Charlie mentioned in yesterdays Q&A that he imagines people people with hyper lerking to get away from marines then gorging to heal up then skulking again to get back to the fight but in reality its just more efficient to use leap (which can be enhanced by either cele <i>or</i> adren) to escape the marines and set up a few forward crags to heal up.
Survivability is too low to actually use hyper around combat. hyper is counter-intuitive because to use it effectively you need to do around combat what you really really shouldn't do, which is evolve.
Sorry charlie, its a neat idea but not worth it over celerity or adrenaline.
<!--quoteo(post=1989119:date=Oct 9 2012, 11:45 PM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Oct 9 2012, 11:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989119"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After a several mutations, you can basically evolve every lifeform instantly.. skulk goes around a corner, comes back an Onos..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More like... skulk dies because it didn't have adrenaline.
Or dies as it tries to run around the corner because it didn't have celerity.
Or dies as an egg because its evolving anywhere besides a hive location.
We tried this in a pcw once, and it didn't work too well, because of a lack of coordination. But i can see this working, since you can mutate so fast. You could gorge-bilebomb a base and reevolve to skulk to attack, or fly in as a lerk to gas, then reevolve skulk and go for the kill. I'm really quite convinced there is some use to this ability.
I think the main culprit for not choosing hyper mutation is the uselessness for skulks. You always need to think about the default class. Every upgrade that is viable for the default class will always be favored. (See Leap vs any other ability.) Every specialized upgrade is always the second choice. If it is highly situational like hyper mutation, it may be ignored completely.
If there were a use for hyper mutation when playing skulk, it may be researched again. The only use for a skulk is to evolve short-time-gorge for hydras. But this comes with the cost of 9 res, that makes it to costly again.
Overall it is a bad choice, because you get an upgrade that only gets useful in the right situations, if you can avoid dying and if you actually use it tactical. The other upgrades come with passive effects you don't need to use actively. Hyper mutation is only useful when used actively. That is a main point in not choosing a stressful upgrade over a choose-and-forget-upgrade.
And no, it isn't ignored because people don't know how powerful it is. It simply can not compete with the other upgrades. Practically looking at it, there are only two ways to make it more viable. <u>Reducing the price or increasing the usefulness.</u>
While the TRes-price is already very low, there is only one option to decrease the overall-price:<ul><li>Take it out of the Shift-Path and make it an own upgrade (Maybe with own building) that is researched once and than available without occupying an upgrade-slot.</li></ul> Here are some ideas for the second option, increasing the usefulness:<ul><li>You get a PRes-refund if your hydras get destroyed. (Would create more of an incentive to use it as opening tactic. And therefore would even create a chance of using it later in the game, because it is already researched.)</li><li>Adding a low refund when dieing. Maybe 25% or 30% of the invested PRes? Needs to be careful chosen to not overpower it.</li><li>Adding RFK as an effect of this upgrade. That doesn't really match the other functions of the upgrade and may be unintuitive. But it would make it useful for the skulk.</li></ul> <b>TL;DR: In any case this upgrade either needs a passive effect so the situational and complicated active part is just a bonus OR a function to make it viable for the skulk.</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1989131:date=Oct 10 2012, 04:33 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Oct 10 2012, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989131"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is the only way I'd take hyper over adren or cele.
Charlie mentioned in yesterdays Q&A that he imagines people people with hyper lerking to get away from marines then gorging to heal up then skulking again to get back to the fight but in reality its just more efficient to use leap (which can be enhanced by either cele <i>or</i> adren) to escape the marines and set up a few forward crags to heal up.
Survivability is too low to actually use hyper around combat. hyper is counter-intuitive because to use it effectively you need to do around combat what you really really shouldn't do, which is evolve.
Sorry charlie, its a neat idea but not worth it over celerity or adrenaline.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ROFL damn must go and watch the Q&A...lerking to escape? so in the heat of battle I will egg, lerk...flee, egg...gorge..heal...pfft
Sorry but hypermutation sucks for 1 very important issue..you have to live long enough to want/need to evolve again.
Not exactly a habit of a species that lacks ranged attacks and has to get close to attack (which even blind freddy could see means your more likely to die more often (thus rendering hyper useless)).
If they seriously want hypermutation to be useful then it needs to reduce the cost of upgrading to lifeforms which you have already selected in the current game. For example if you went lerk you initially paid 30 Res, if you had selected hypermutation with that evolution then your subsequent lerk will cost you ~20 res...then maybe 15, 10 etc. Marines can pick up a dead marines weapon..this just offers aliens a way to be able to continue to have upgrades (seeing as UWE are determined that the only weapon upgrades alien need are higher lifeforms) through out a game. If they changed hypermutation to function like this then it would be useful (as it means that repeat evolutions get cheaper (down to a set floor of perhaps 10 res))
Either that or a skulk with hypermutation can hop in the corpse of a dead onos and revive it.
Hypermutation needs a massive overhaul or simple removal as it offers nothing to 99% of the players (sorry but I am not 1337 enough to think I would get more value from hypermutation than celerity or adren...and dont know many who would believe otherwise).
Replying to the original post, I pretty much think I could try the evolution when an opportunity occurs, didn't know it allows for evolutions swap and the examples of use seem to be interesting. But still it is likely to be second Hive upgrade, when players have resources to go some higher life forms and several evolutions to choose from and swap.
But maybe hypermutation needs something more than it offers. I thought of these features:
<ul><li>Allow to swap any upgrades<b> including hypermutation itself</b></li></ul> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For example you went Lerk while waiting for, say, your favorite Fade and in a while reached the moment when you have the res and now going to stay Fade. Now you can swap hypermutation with anything else(at the price of hypermutation benefits during life of that particular Fade). So no need to go skulk and die to clear up the slot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <ul><li>Allow to use multiple upgrades from same chamber.</li></ul> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was very strong with carapace and regeneration on second Hive, but now it is possible on the third hive only(2 slots for the crag abilities and 1 for hypermutation). So you trade one slot for really strong combination. You can even use that adrenaline and celerity or silence/invisibility and feign. Useful if commander picked upgrades from same chamber and you have several hives. Also could make more use of 4th Hive if it adds 4th slot which could be kind of endgame ability for Kharaa(Heard Rumor about Frontiersmen Nuke post 1.0). This shouldn't be too strong since it still requires the abilities to be researched and mt least 3 hives. Or 2 hives if you like the other benefits of hypermutaton and want adrenaline or celerity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<ul><li>Ability to quickly evolve between 2 lifeforms with a hotkey, within, perhaps 1 to 2 seconds, keeping same percent of health/armor and energy and without the egg phase.</li></ul> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, Onos suddenly flying away when it's too hot. The already suggested quick morphs to Gorge to heal self/anything else. Scene with two marines chasing a Gorge and then being chased by a surprise Onos, or perhaps just getting trapped in the same corner where the Gorge was about to die a second ago. Onos raining from the skies. Skulks(or Gorges if you prefer Hugh-style =) ) diving into crevice pit and then suddenly rising as Lerk. Gorge growing a Harvester and turning into Skulk/Fade if marines pop up suddenly. More teamwrok based use could be (though not sure if it's possible)these strategies, based on whole team going quickgorge to totally clog-lock some room and then back to offensive lifeforms if necessary: <ul><li>locking your last hive room from marine rush to save res for a stealth-hive-drop in some other room</li><li>locking whole marine team in one of your hiverooms when they rush that hive lowering their chances to get back in time when you are finishing off their base</li><li>just swarm into marine base, lock all the entrances and bile it</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<ul><li>Ability to evolve into some Overmind-Kharaa.</li></ul> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All aliens evolve hypermutation and then all jump into the Hive. Then put int into a blender and get last-effort Kharaa-thing of enormous strength(but not too much) controlled by whole team that can try to destroy everything marines have got. Marines win if they either kill it(if it's not that strong) or if they survive till it auto-shutdowns due to lost connection to the Hivemind(if it is too strong).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, please, don't take the last two too serious =) What do you think? =)
I can see hypermutation being useful if it's rushed early on, and everybody immediately goes gorge, builds clogs and hydras in strategic location, then the majority of the team ungorges to reclaim res. I often gorge to put down fortifications then go back to skulking - only this way it costs only 9 res instead of 19.
Early hypermutation means the benefit of gorge walls all round the map, whilst keeping the majority of the team skulk to keep pressure on them, all without a significant res cost. Also, you can regorge at anytime if defenses go down (and to build hives/harvesters without having to stay gorge).
I think it comes down to map specific strategy though. Gorge walls can be extremely effective (e.g. entrance to Ore Extraction), or utterly useless.
Somebody mentioned being able to lerk without having to sacrifice fade. Whilst that's true - you may aswell go lerk then switch back to skulk, die somewhere (or kill in console), and then use the reclaimed res to fade without having to be bound to hypermutation (i.e. you get back the res through hypermutation, and still get to celerity fade). There should be the ability to switch out hypermutation, but once you have you cant switch back (like the other upgrades), to avoid this.
Another use of hypermutation can be a regen ability (without having regen). If you're stranded in a vent with low hp with marines covering the entrances (i.e. in a situation where you cant get back to the hive or a gorge to heal), you can hypermutate into gorge, heal yourself, then evolve back.
Much more inclined to accept a 20% lifeform refund than the 50 to 75% refund suggested by ScardyBob. 20% brings a fade from 50 down to 40! In pub games right now there are regularly 1 or 2 players who can perma-fade, even before feign death becomes available. With a lifeform refund, the number of perma-fades will only go up, or those advanced lifeforms can take greater risks/be more aggressive. Feign death already allows me to overcommit, especially to exo battles. Any refund only needs to be low enough to start getting people to use it, no need to have a fire sale. Personally I still prefer a lifeform discount rather than a refund. I think a discount would plays to the strategic choice (get x lifeform earlier than expected, catch marines off guard) rather than in perpetuity (30 min in to a game when you're swimming in pRes & tRes, the refund or discount is either irrelevant or so massive you always take it).
As for dopedog's point about early hydras - yeah that's by far the most compelling reason to go for early hypermutation. The downsides are <ul><li>To get the most out of it you need to have no gorges until hypermutation is up, which means nobody will be fast-building harvesters or 2nd hive and there will be no early hydras defending a rush against your one main hive. That risk goes away after about 2 minutes, and/or you can have somebody gorge before hyper is up - it's an interesting temptation either way.</li><li>Each player who drops 9 pRes on hydras has to wait longer before they can afford to lerk or fade. The timing of the arrival of the first fade on the battlefield is still pretty pivotal (not as much as the days of yore, but still). 9 pRes translates to about 2.5 minutes @ 3 harvesters, so you're looking at facing an extra armour and/or weapon upgrade. Again, this can be mitigated by just having a few people not drop hydras, but that in turn weakens the effective gain of early hyper... nice little catch 22.</li><li>Once those early hydras are dropped you're then playing with skulks without celerity or adren. So you're going to want to get celerty or adren anyway, which means you're simply bumping every other thing like 2nd hive, leap etc down the priority list. It's not a huge deal but the question is: will those clogs & hydras make up for weaker skulks in the short term?</li><li>As marine comm, I'm going to know within 2 minutes (due to active scans and marine scouting) exactly what strategy has been played. I would then ask my marines to ruthlessly suicide rush hydras with rifles, kill as many as possible before unlocking shotguns. Hydras go down really fast to a pair of rifles. I'd seek to wreck any advantage those early hydras provided and in fact turn it against the aliens making them perceive it as wasted pRes.</li></ul>
<!--quoteo(post=1989229:date=Oct 10 2012, 05:33 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Oct 10 2012, 05:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for dopedog's point about early hydras - yeah that's by far the most compelling reason to go for early hypermutation. The downsides are <ul><li>To get the most out of it you need to have no gorges until hypermutation is up, which means nobody will be fast-building harvesters or 2nd hive and there will be no early hydras defending a rush against your one main hive. That risk goes away after about 2 minutes, and/or you can have somebody gorge before hyper is up - it's an interesting temptation either way.</li><li>Each player who drops 9 pRes on hydras has to wait longer before they can afford to lerk or fade. The timing of the arrival of the first fade on the battlefield is still pretty pivotal (not as much as the days of yore, but still). 9 pRes translates to about 2.5 minutes @ 3 harvesters, so you're looking at facing an extra armour and/or weapon upgrade. Again, this can be mitigated by just having a few people not drop hydras, but that in turn weakens the effective gain of early hyper... nice little catch 22.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The first two bullets are not downsides as you reasoned possible tradeoffs for not having the whole team go hypermutation. It may make sense to not have everyone hypermutate, but in a 6v6, if only 4-5 people hypermutate to gorge you get 12-15 hydras at your hive which imo is still plenty. Hypermutating into gorge does not require you to drop 3 hydras either. If the whole team hypermutates and drops 2 hydras, each persons individual pres investment is less, yet you still get 12 hydras for defense.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--></li><li>Once those early hydras are dropped you're then playing with skulks without celerity or adren. So you're going to want to get celerty or adren anyway, which means you're simply bumping every other thing like 2nd hive, leap etc down the priority list. It's not a huge deal but the question is: will those clogs & hydras make up for weaker skulks in the short term?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Adren and celerity are used to buff the individual player, which is why they are more popular than hypermutation. A case can be made that hypermutation does not buff you individually, but buffs your attack squad since anyone can go gorge (literally evolve in 1 second.) Anytime you can regroup, have one person go gorge, and attack. How much more effective are aliens attacking with a gorge healing, compared to without a gorge and upgrading celerity and adren instead?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--></li><li>As marine comm, I'm going to know within 2 minutes (due to active scans and marine scouting) exactly what strategy has been played. I would then ask my marines to ruthlessly suicide rush hydras with rifles, kill as many as possible before unlocking shotguns. Hydras go down really fast to a pair of rifles. I'd seek to wreck any advantage those early hydras provided and in fact turn it against the aliens making them perceive it as wasted pRes.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The role of the hydras are not to kill the marines, but to stall them. If a squad of marines are determined to take the hydras out, then mission accomplished for aliens! This gives skulks map control and lets them chomp on the marine base and/or force beacons.
One sidenote i think is really important which dopedog mentioned is hiding in a vent and hypermutating to gorge to heal yourself. Staying alive when deep in enemy territory harassing res nodes is very annoying for marines. Too many times I've seen skulks near marine base escape by the skin of their teeth and literally become worthless because they are too far from base to heal and don't have enough health to fight.
<!--quoteo(post=1989507:date=Oct 11 2012, 01:04 PM:name=Kiai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiai @ Oct 11 2012, 01:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The first two bullets are not downsides as you reasoned possible tradeoffs for not having the whole team go hypermutation. It may make sense to not have everyone hypermutate, but in a 6v6, if only 4-5 people hypermutate to gorge you get 12-15 hydras at your hive which imo is still plenty. Hypermutating into gorge does not require you to drop 3 hydras either. If the whole team hypermutates and drops 2 hydras, each persons individual pres investment is less, yet you still get 12 hydras for defense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure, it's possible for gorges to not build all 3 hydras. Let's say they build 2. Now why not just have fewer gorges but have them all drop 3 hydras? That way you have a few people who can perform normal skulk duties right from the start of the game and they'll hit lerk & fade pRes points at the normal timings.
The reason I proposed having the whole team drop hydras was to maximise the benefit of hypermutation. You've got to keep in mind that the alternative is an entire team using celerity and celerity is useful on every lifeform. (Total team benefit) = (number of players using an evolution) x (improved ability of individual players)
<!--quoteo(post=1989507:date=Oct 11 2012, 01:04 PM:name=Kiai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiai @ Oct 11 2012, 01:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Adren and celerity are used to buff the individual player, which is why they are more popular than hypermutation. A case can be made that hypermutation does not buff you individually, but buffs your attack squad since anyone can go gorge (literally evolve in 1 second.) Anytime you can regroup, have one person go gorge, and attack. How much more effective are aliens attacking with a gorge healing, compared to without a gorge and upgrading celerity and adren instead?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I get your point. The obvious caveat is 'anytime you can regroup'. Your mileage may vary. I like to battlegorge in the early game, 3 skulks supported by a gorge can be crazy effective when you can get up in the marines face, what with healspray keeping those skulks alive and wounding the marine. In general I'd say Gorge and Lerk fill more team oriented roles anyway, since there's not nearly as much individual glory (ie: KDR). If hypermutation encourages people to use those lifeforms, inherently the style of play will be different. The gotcha is that the more people fill support roles, the fewer people there are to actually soldier. And that's the core issue with hypermutation - celerity can benefit every lifeform (even gorges) in perpetuity whereas anybody who wants to solider can't frequently benefit from hypermuation.
<!--quoteo(post=1989507:date=Oct 11 2012, 01:04 PM:name=Kiai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiai @ Oct 11 2012, 01:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The role of the hydras are not to kill the marines, but to stall them. If a squad of marines are determined to take the hydras out, then mission accomplished for aliens! This gives skulks map control and lets them chomp on the marine base and/or force beacons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree about stalling, but completely disagree with the implication that building hydras to soak up rifle time is worthwhile. They are expensive and you should evaluate what else that pRes could do for you. 3 pRes blown on a single rifle clip which is 2(?) seconds of fire time? Not even close. As a marine comm I would cry tears of happiness to have the aliens expose their pRes to my guys' rifle fire like that. The idea that they would keep using hypermutation to re-drop hydras? Oh good, I never have to worry about fades ever again!
<!--quoteo(post=1989507:date=Oct 11 2012, 01:04 PM:name=Kiai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiai @ Oct 11 2012, 01:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One sidenote i think is really important which dopedog mentioned is hiding in a vent and hypermutating to gorge to heal yourself. Staying alive when deep in enemy territory harassing res nodes is very annoying for marines. Too many times I've seen skulks near marine base escape by the skin of their teeth and literally become worthless because they are too far from base to heal and don't have enough health to fight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure, and regen is another way skulks can do the exact same thing. Of course, regen is way less fiddly. They could also run back to a hive or a gorge or a forward crag base and... celerity makes that much faster. Again the benefit you've listed is real and undeniable. It just doesn't stack up well with the alternatives.
<!--quoteo(post=1989520:date=Oct 10 2012, 08:13 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Oct 10 2012, 08:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure, it's possible for gorges to not build all 3 hydras. Let's say they build 2. Now why not just have fewer gorges but have them all drop 3 hydras? That way you have a few people who can perform normal skulk duties right from the start of the game and they'll hit lerk & fade pRes points at the normal timings.
The reason I proposed having the whole team drop hydras was to maximise the benefit of hypermutation. You've got to keep in mind that the alternative is an entire team using celerity and celerity is useful on every lifeform. (Total team benefit) = (number of players using an evolution) x (improved ability of individual players)
I get your point. The obvious caveat is 'anytime you can regroup'. Your mileage may vary. I like to battlegorge in the early game, 3 skulks supported by a gorge can be crazy effective when you can get up in the marines face, what with healspray keeping those skulks alive and wounding the marine. In general I'd say Gorge and Lerk fill more team oriented roles anyway, since there's not nearly as much individual glory (ie: KDR). If hypermutation encourages people to use those lifeforms, inherently the style of play will be different. The gotcha is that the more people fill support roles, the fewer people there are to actually soldier. And that's the core issue with hypermutation - celerity can benefit every lifeform (even gorges) in perpetuity whereas anybody who wants to solider can't frequently benefit from hypermuation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I tend to agree with all your points but only from a pub point of view. I should clarify that the arguments i make for hypermutation are geared toward competitive play as i alluded to in my post on page 2 of this thread. This is because in comp play teamwork is much more organized, and hypermutation benefits greatly from this.
In comp play, regrouping to attack is extremely common, and anyone on the team would be willing to go battle gorge while the rest stay as skulks.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree about stalling, but completely disagree with the implication that building hydras to soak up rifle time is worthwhile. They are expensive and you should evaluate what else that pRes could do for you. 3 pRes blown on a single rifle clip which is 2(?) seconds of fire time? Not even close. As a marine comm I would cry tears of happiness to have the aliens expose their pRes to my guys' rifle fire like that. The idea that they would keep using hypermutation to re-drop hydras? Oh good, I never have to worry about fades ever again!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We can debate whether an alien losing pres to a hydra is worth it or not. Remember, while marines attack hydras we have to ask how much damage is being done to marine infrastructure? How many res nodes can the aliens destroy? Can they destroy infantry portals? How much tres do marines lose? This really depends on how well each team plays out this strategy.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure, and regen is another way skulks can do the exact same thing. Of course, regen is way less fiddly. They could also run back to a hive or a gorge or a forward crag base and... celerity makes that much faster. Again the benefit you've listed is real and undeniable. It just doesn't stack up well with the alternatives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From a pub standpoint yes you are right. From a comp point of view though, this is icing on the cake. If we think of the benefits opening with hypermutation instead of fast hive, what benefits do we achieve? Lots of hive defense from hydras, this allows skulks to put forth more map pressure, allows Khamm to grab 2nd harvester faster than normal AND skulks near marine base can hop into a vent hypermutate and heal without going crag hive! Also lets be honest, if i'm in a vent, regeneration takes time to kick in anyway. In the same time I can evolve into a gorge in 1 second and heal myself. The only real disadvantage in this scenario is i have to click more buttons to evolve to gorge and back to skulk whereas regen requires me to click no buttons.
<!--quoteo(post=1989229:date=Oct 10 2012, 07:33 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Oct 10 2012, 07:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for dopedog's point about early hydras - yeah that's by far the most compelling reason to go for early hypermutation. The downsides are <ul><li>To get the most out of it you need to have no gorges until hypermutation is up, which means nobody will be fast-building harvesters or 2nd hive and there will be no early hydras defending a rush against your one main hive. That risk goes away after about 2 minutes, and/or you can have somebody gorge before hyper is up - it's an interesting temptation either way.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is it not possible to gorge, then when hypermutation is up, evolve hypermutation, then unevolve into skulk and reclaim res? Or do you have to get hypermutation before/when you go gorge to get that res back? I'm not sure about how it works. If it works the first way, then hypermutation will be up by the time the gorges finish building, and placing clogs and hydras. If it works the second way, then, yeah, then you can't do it as early (which is hugely vital, because clogs and hydra's are more effective when placed in choke points early game - e.g. like defending off a 3rd hive outpost, or if you're pipeline in veil, cutting marines off outside topographical.
<!--quoteo(post=1989229:date=Oct 10 2012, 07:33 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Oct 10 2012, 07:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li>Each player who drops 9 pRes on hydras has to wait longer before they can afford to lerk or fade. The timing of the arrival of the first fade on the battlefield is still pretty pivotal (not as much as the days of yore, but still). 9 pRes translates to about 2.5 minutes @ 3 harvesters, so you're looking at facing an extra armour and/or weapon upgrade. Again, this can be mitigated by just having a few people not drop hydras, but that in turn weakens the effective gain of early hyper... nice little catch 22.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're right. I only suggested it to get the maximum benefit - though maybe not having EVERYBODY place hydras is better (as you can place clogs for free). Perhaps work out the essential chokepoints you want to hold off the marines from (in each alien/marine techpoint starting locations, for each map - i.e. cover every scenario), to work out how many people need to place hydras, and then the rest save for early lerk, then fade (by this time celerity should be researched, and unless want to go for an early onos, should evolve to skulk to reclaim res, die, then go celerity fade, rather than stay hypermutation fade).
<!--quoteo(post=1989229:date=Oct 10 2012, 07:33 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Oct 10 2012, 07:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li>Once those early hydras are dropped you're then playing with skulks without celerity or adren. So you're going to want to get celerty or adren anyway, which means you're simply bumping every other thing like 2nd hive, leap etc down the priority list. It's not a huge deal but the question is: will those clogs & hydras make up for weaker skulks in the short term?</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
maaaaaaybe. Celerity skulks are really powerful, especially early game. And although you can always celerity skulk after you've ungorged after hypermutation (of course you'd have to die first to do that), it wont be until abit later that celerity comes out. As for the clogs and hydras making up for no celerity - it depends if they're using them to their advantage or not. Staying on those choke holes, waiting for marines to waste a round on the clog walls, then rushing in as skulk to kill them all once they reload (might not work so well on a team of more than 2 marines though, if it's just one skulk). Then you can always hypermutate gorge again and rebuild the clog walls (unless you've already got a dedicated gorge there). Perhaps when there's dedicated gorges (i.e. people who stay gorge at the clog location), perhaps a shift would help.
<!--quoteo(post=1989229:date=Oct 10 2012, 07:33 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Oct 10 2012, 07:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li>As marine comm, I'm going to know within 2 minutes (due to active scans and marine scouting) exactly what strategy has been played. I would then ask my marines to ruthlessly suicide rush hydras with rifles, kill as many as possible before unlocking shotguns. Hydras go down really fast to a pair of rifles. I'd seek to wreck any advantage those early hydras provided and in fact turn it against the aliens making them perceive it as wasted pRes.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a legitimate concern. However, I think you just gotta be more careful about your hydra placement. Place the hydras out of where the immediate rifle fire will be. Let the marines waste their ammo on the clog wall rather than the hydras if a gorge isn't there to heal it (as well as a skulk - cause even one gorge cant outheal the rifle fire of one marine on lvl 0 weapons so you gotta get a skulk in there immediately after they waste a clip if they're shooting at hydras). If you have no gorge, place the hydras around the corner of the clog wall, so just in case they do break through, you can take evasive maneouvers and rush back in there while they're wasting their ammo fire on the hydras.
I think the key is for the clogs to take most of the fire, and have the skulks rush in on the reload. That way, they can hypermutate back to gorge, place more clogs, then back again, for free. Hydra's cost money, so keep them only as a backup if they break through the clog wall, especially if there's no gorge on site.
<!--quoteo(post=1989520:date=Oct 10 2012, 10:13 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Oct 10 2012, 10:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree about stalling, but completely disagree with the implication that building hydras to soak up rifle time is worthwhile. They are expensive and you should evaluate what else that pRes could do for you. 3 pRes blown on a single rifle clip which is 2(?) seconds of fire time? Not even close. As a marine comm I would cry tears of happiness to have the aliens expose their pRes to my guys' rifle fire like that. The idea that they would keep using hypermutation to re-drop hydras? Oh good, I never have to worry about fades ever again!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's more expensive? Losing a marine in a forward location the aliens want to keep because a skulk has rushed in while he's reloading from shooting hydras, or potentially losing 3 pres and keeping the forward base. Smart placement would mean that most ammo is used on clogs anyway. Smart marine tactics however might be able to (and probably will) trump it though.
<!--quoteo(post=1989520:date=Oct 10 2012, 10:13 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Oct 10 2012, 10:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure, and regen is another way skulks can do the exact same thing. Of course, regen is way less fiddly. They could also run back to a hive or a gorge or a forward crag base and... celerity makes that much faster. Again the benefit you've listed is real and undeniable. It just doesn't stack up well with the alternatives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm just saying, if you're already bound to hypermutation anyway, you can do that. And I only suggested it as a last resort type thing. I know it's fiddly, and probably takes a while to do, but you can still do it if it really comes down to it (although you better be somewhere they aren't gonna take 10 res from you when you go gorge). I wasn't saying it was a major benefit, because it is a fiddly roundabout method of healing, but you can still do it was my point.
I'd take a lot of what i'm saying with a grain of salt to be honest. I do think that hypermutation is definately a weak evolution trait. However, because it's so weak it hasn't really been explored how it could be used, if used correctly. Even if used smartly however, I don't think it will still be all that effective when looking at the tradeoffs on going different routes (early celerity, early res, early hive+leap) - and i'm kinda playing devils advocate to get discussion going on the legitimacy of using such strategies.
I think a lot of it is map specific and has to be preplanned to hell. It allows for a bunch of interesting things. For example, an unsuspecting marine team with a 2nd base in subsector in veil - if there's bile bomb, a team could gorge in overlook, build hydras all up the ramp to subsector, rush in and bile everything like crazy, belly slide down the ramp, heal and evolve skulk while the marines are getting nailed/distracted by hydras. And have the skulks come back up and clean up the rest of the marine. Of course that wouldn't work if the marines had grenades or lots of shotguns out (or jetpacks/exos for that matter). And this all takes a lot of coordination so good luck getting people to do that in a pub.
@Kiai Strengths and weaknesses of opening strategies are amplified in competitive games. Coordination is improved for both teams. So, sadly, the the arguments I make against hypermutation go doubly so for competitive games. There is simply less tolerance for tRes spending that doesn't yield concrete results.
I have seen (and participated in) some some very creative strategies in competitive games but not once ever in the history of hypermutation have I seen it used early, if at all. If you've got a link to a video, I'd love to see it!
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>if i'm in a vent, regeneration takes time to kick in anyway<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Heh, that's just another way regen is better - you don't have to hide in a vent, you can just run off to the next extractor and start chomping while regen ticks away.
@dopedog Yeah good point about early gorges picking up hypermutation after the fact, I don't know how that works. Maybe we can cross that disadvantage off the list.
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>What's more expensive? Losing a marine in a forward location...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> That's kind of a specific, favourable scenario compared to a generic one. Broadly speaking my thoughts on that are a) rifle marines are free and are very effective at attacking hydras in particular (more effective than shotgunners!) b) phase gates & sprinting allows those marines to get around so a forward marine is not as much of an investment.
I hear you on the devils advocate thing. I'm only here lambasting hypermutation in the hope that it leads to changes, and that those changes provide better strategic choice in the gameplay.
get this: nxzl used hypermutation against inversion in the guru tournament and they won! needless to say it was not a very early choice, but it was in the game for quite a long time so it actually had an impact on the game. if you watch the stream recording at <a href="http://de.twitch.tv/naturalselection2" target="_blank">http://de.twitch.tv/naturalselection2</a>, take a look at bitey changing life forms over and over again. something i didn't notice yet myself: you are fully healed when re-evolving, that seems broken to me. he basically fully healed his onos from ~10% to 100% in something like 3 seconds...
edit: there is a thread about this: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121874" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=121874</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1990948:date=Oct 13 2012, 03:35 PM:name=Laosh'Ra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laosh'Ra @ Oct 13 2012, 03:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1990948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->get this: nxzl used hypermutation against inversion in the guru tournament and they won! needless to say it was not a very early choice, but it was in the game for quite a long time so it actually had an impact on the game. if you watch the stream recording at <a href="http://de.twitch.tv/naturalselection2" target="_blank">http://de.twitch.tv/naturalselection2</a>, take a look at bitey changing life forms over and over again. something i didn't notice yet myself: you are fully healed when re-evolving, that seems broken to me. he basically fully healed his onos from ~10% to 100% in something like 3 seconds...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What about the time it takes to evolve into an onos?
as i said, he evolved back to skulk and then onos again in about a second each (with 1 second select-overhead). this is an estimation, but it is definately tons faster than evolving onos without hypermutation.
<!--quoteo(post=1990955:date=Oct 13 2012, 03:01 PM:name=Rambo Swags)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rambo Swags @ Oct 13 2012, 03:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1990955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about the time it takes to evolve into an onos?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Evolving speed is increased in hypermutation...like semi-instant evolving....
<!--quoteo(post=1990948:date=Oct 13 2012, 09:35 PM:name=Laosh'Ra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laosh'Ra @ Oct 13 2012, 09:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1990948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->get this: nxzl used hypermutation against inversion in the guru tournament and they won! needless to say it was not a very early choice, but it was in the game for quite a long time so it actually had an impact on the game. if you watch the stream recording at <a href="http://de.twitch.tv/naturalselection2" target="_blank">http://de.twitch.tv/naturalselection2</a>, take a look at bitey changing life forms over and over again. something i didn't notice yet myself: you are fully healed when re-evolving, that seems broken to me. he basically fully healed his onos from ~10% to 100% in something like 3 seconds...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry, but no. Bitey also had Dr Pepper instead of Coke and pickles on his ham sandwhich that morning, which had about as much effect on the game as hyper mutation did.
BiteyJoin Date: 2012-05-06Member: 151622Members, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
edited October 2012
I can explain it at a later date, but I personally say that it is OP in any sense of the word. I'll go into it sometime after the tourny, the only reason Nxzl has looked into it is mostly from me pushing them to snag it <3
Yaaay! Back to being serious with the tourny.
-Edit also, I had a 32oz Monster Super size. No pickles, tomato, 3 slices of cheese, 3 slices of bread (Big mac style), Loasd of lettuce, and some ranch dressing to top it off. Breakfeast of 'prospective' future champ!
<!--quoteo(post=1990975:date=Oct 13 2012, 11:44 PM:name=Bitey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bitey @ Oct 13 2012, 11:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1990975"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can explain it at a later date, but I personally say that it is OP in any sense of the word. I'll go into it sometime after the tourny, the only reason Nxzl has looked into it is mostly from me pushing them to snag it <3
Yaaay! Back to being serious with the tourny.
-Edit also, I had a 32oz Monster Super size. No pickles, tomato, 3 slices of cheese, 3 slices of bread (Big mac style), Loasd of lettuce, and some ranch dressing to top it off. Breakfeast of 'prospective' future champ!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No wonder you took that game!
I theorised that, when you died as onos, you were sitting in that corner trying to devolve before they got you. Was I correct?
Comments
This is the only way I'd take hyper over adren or cele.
Charlie mentioned in yesterdays Q&A that he imagines people people with hyper lerking to get away from marines then gorging to heal up then skulking again to get back to the fight but in reality its just more efficient to use leap (which can be enhanced by either cele <i>or</i> adren) to escape the marines and set up a few forward crags to heal up.
Survivability is too low to actually use hyper around combat. hyper is counter-intuitive because to use it effectively you need to do around combat what you really really shouldn't do, which is evolve.
Sorry charlie, its a neat idea but not worth it over celerity or adrenaline.
More like... skulk dies because it didn't have adrenaline.
Or dies as it tries to run around the corner because it didn't have celerity.
Or dies as an egg because its evolving anywhere besides a hive location.
If there were a use for hyper mutation when playing skulk, it may be researched again. The only use for a skulk is to evolve short-time-gorge for hydras. But this comes with the cost of 9 res, that makes it to costly again.
Overall it is a bad choice, because you get an upgrade that only gets useful in the right situations, if you can avoid dying and if you actually use it tactical. The other upgrades come with passive effects you don't need to use actively. Hyper mutation is only useful when used actively. That is a main point in not choosing a stressful upgrade over a choose-and-forget-upgrade.
And no, it isn't ignored because people don't know how powerful it is. It simply can not compete with the other upgrades.
Practically looking at it, there are only two ways to make it more viable. <u>Reducing the price or increasing the usefulness.</u>
While the TRes-price is already very low, there is only one option to decrease the overall-price:<ul><li>Take it out of the Shift-Path and make it an own upgrade (Maybe with own building) that is researched once and than available without occupying an upgrade-slot.</li></ul>
Here are some ideas for the second option, increasing the usefulness:<ul><li>You get a PRes-refund if your hydras get destroyed. (Would create more of an incentive to use it as opening tactic. And therefore would even create a chance of using it later in the game, because it is already researched.)</li><li>Adding a low refund when dieing. Maybe 25% or 30% of the invested PRes? Needs to be careful chosen to not overpower it.</li><li>Adding RFK as an effect of this upgrade. That doesn't really match the other functions of the upgrade and may be unintuitive. But it would make it useful for the skulk.</li></ul>
<b>TL;DR: In any case this upgrade either needs a passive effect so the situational and complicated active part is just a bonus OR a function to make it viable for the skulk.</b>
Charlie mentioned in yesterdays Q&A that he imagines people people with hyper lerking to get away from marines then gorging to heal up then skulking again to get back to the fight but in reality its just more efficient to use leap (which can be enhanced by either cele <i>or</i> adren) to escape the marines and set up a few forward crags to heal up.
Survivability is too low to actually use hyper around combat. hyper is counter-intuitive because to use it effectively you need to do around combat what you really really shouldn't do, which is evolve.
Sorry charlie, its a neat idea but not worth it over celerity or adrenaline.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ROFL damn must go and watch the Q&A...lerking to escape? so in the heat of battle I will egg, lerk...flee, egg...gorge..heal...pfft
Sorry but hypermutation sucks for 1 very important issue..you have to live long enough to want/need to evolve again.
Not exactly a habit of a species that lacks ranged attacks and has to get close to attack (which even blind freddy could see means your more likely to die more often (thus rendering hyper useless)).
If they seriously want hypermutation to be useful then it needs to reduce the cost of upgrading to lifeforms which you have already selected in the current game.
For example if you went lerk you initially paid 30 Res, if you had selected hypermutation with that evolution then your subsequent lerk will cost you ~20 res...then maybe 15, 10 etc.
Marines can pick up a dead marines weapon..this just offers aliens a way to be able to continue to have upgrades (seeing as UWE are determined that the only weapon upgrades alien need are higher lifeforms) through out a game.
If they changed hypermutation to function like this then it would be useful (as it means that repeat evolutions get cheaper (down to a set floor of perhaps 10 res))
Either that or a skulk with hypermutation can hop in the corpse of a dead onos and revive it.
Hypermutation needs a massive overhaul or simple removal as it offers nothing to 99% of the players (sorry but I am not 1337 enough to think I would get more value from hypermutation than celerity or adren...and dont know many who would believe otherwise).
But maybe hypermutation needs something more than it offers. I thought of these features:
<ul><li>Allow to swap any upgrades<b> including hypermutation itself</b></li></ul>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For example you went Lerk while waiting for, say, your favorite Fade and in a while reached the moment when you have the res and now going to stay Fade. Now you can swap hypermutation with anything else(at the price of hypermutation benefits during life of that particular Fade). So no need to go skulk and die to clear up the slot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<ul><li>Allow to use multiple upgrades from same chamber.</li></ul>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was very strong with carapace and regeneration on second Hive, but now it is possible on the third hive only(2 slots for the crag abilities and 1 for hypermutation). So you trade one slot for really strong combination. You can even use that adrenaline and celerity or silence/invisibility and feign. Useful if commander picked upgrades from same chamber and you have several hives. Also could make more use of 4th Hive if it adds 4th slot which could be kind of endgame ability for Kharaa(Heard Rumor about Frontiersmen Nuke post 1.0). This shouldn't be too strong since it still requires the abilities to be researched and mt least 3 hives. Or 2 hives if you like the other benefits of hypermutaton and want adrenaline or celerity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<ul><li>Ability to quickly evolve between 2 lifeforms with a hotkey, within, perhaps 1 to 2 seconds, keeping same percent of health/armor and energy and without the egg phase.</li></ul>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, Onos suddenly flying away when it's too hot. The already suggested quick morphs to Gorge to heal self/anything else. Scene with two marines chasing a Gorge and then being chased by a surprise Onos, or perhaps just getting trapped in the same corner where the Gorge was about to die a second ago. Onos raining from the skies. Skulks(or Gorges if you prefer Hugh-style =) ) diving into crevice pit and then suddenly rising as Lerk. Gorge growing a Harvester and turning into Skulk/Fade if marines pop up suddenly.
More teamwrok based use could be (though not sure if it's possible)these strategies, based on whole team going quickgorge to totally clog-lock some room and then back to offensive lifeforms if necessary:
<ul><li>locking your last hive room from marine rush to save res for a stealth-hive-drop in some other room</li><li>locking whole marine team in one of your hiverooms when they rush that hive lowering their chances to get back in time when you are finishing off their base</li><li>just swarm into marine base, lock all the entrances and bile it</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<ul><li>Ability to evolve into some Overmind-Kharaa.</li></ul>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All aliens evolve hypermutation and then all jump into the Hive. Then put int into a blender and get last-effort Kharaa-thing of enormous strength(but not too much) controlled by whole team that can try to destroy everything marines have got. Marines win if they either kill it(if it's not that strong) or if they survive till it auto-shutdowns due to lost connection to the Hivemind(if it is too strong).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, please, don't take the last two too serious =)
What do you think? =)
Early hypermutation means the benefit of gorge walls all round the map, whilst keeping the majority of the team skulk to keep pressure on them, all without a significant res cost. Also, you can regorge at anytime if defenses go down (and to build hives/harvesters without having to stay gorge).
I think it comes down to map specific strategy though. Gorge walls can be extremely effective (e.g. entrance to Ore Extraction), or utterly useless.
Somebody mentioned being able to lerk without having to sacrifice fade. Whilst that's true - you may aswell go lerk then switch back to skulk, die somewhere (or kill in console), and then use the reclaimed res to fade without having to be bound to hypermutation (i.e. you get back the res through hypermutation, and still get to celerity fade). There should be the ability to switch out hypermutation, but once you have you cant switch back (like the other upgrades), to avoid this.
Another use of hypermutation can be a regen ability (without having regen). If you're stranded in a vent with low hp with marines covering the entrances (i.e. in a situation where you cant get back to the hive or a gorge to heal), you can hypermutate into gorge, heal yourself, then evolve back.
Much more inclined to accept a 20% lifeform refund than the 50 to 75% refund suggested by ScardyBob. 20% brings a fade from 50 down to 40! In pub games right now there are regularly 1 or 2 players who can perma-fade, even before feign death becomes available. With a lifeform refund, the number of perma-fades will only go up, or those advanced lifeforms can take greater risks/be more aggressive. Feign death already allows me to overcommit, especially to exo battles. Any refund only needs to be low enough to start getting people to use it, no need to have a fire sale. Personally I still prefer a lifeform discount rather than a refund. I think a discount would plays to the strategic choice (get x lifeform earlier than expected, catch marines off guard) rather than in perpetuity (30 min in to a game when you're swimming in pRes & tRes, the refund or discount is either irrelevant or so massive you always take it).
As for dopedog's point about early hydras - yeah that's by far the most compelling reason to go for early hypermutation. The downsides are
<ul><li>To get the most out of it you need to have no gorges until hypermutation is up, which means nobody will be fast-building harvesters or 2nd hive and there will be no early hydras defending a rush against your one main hive. That risk goes away after about 2 minutes, and/or you can have somebody gorge before hyper is up - it's an interesting temptation either way.</li><li>Each player who drops 9 pRes on hydras has to wait longer before they can afford to lerk or fade. The timing of the arrival of the first fade on the battlefield is still pretty pivotal (not as much as the days of yore, but still). 9 pRes translates to about 2.5 minutes @ 3 harvesters, so you're looking at facing an extra armour and/or weapon upgrade. Again, this can be mitigated by just having a few people not drop hydras, but that in turn weakens the effective gain of early hyper... nice little catch 22.</li><li>Once those early hydras are dropped you're then playing with skulks without celerity or adren. So you're going to want to get celerty or adren anyway, which means you're simply bumping every other thing like 2nd hive, leap etc down the priority list. It's not a huge deal but the question is: will those clogs & hydras make up for weaker skulks in the short term?</li><li>As marine comm, I'm going to know within 2 minutes (due to active scans and marine scouting) exactly what strategy has been played. I would then ask my marines to ruthlessly suicide rush hydras with rifles, kill as many as possible before unlocking shotguns. Hydras go down really fast to a pair of rifles. I'd seek to wreck any advantage those early hydras provided and in fact turn it against the aliens making them perceive it as wasted pRes.</li></ul>
<ul><li>To get the most out of it you need to have no gorges until hypermutation is up, which means nobody will be fast-building harvesters or 2nd hive and there will be no early hydras defending a rush against your one main hive. That risk goes away after about 2 minutes, and/or you can have somebody gorge before hyper is up - it's an interesting temptation either way.</li><li>Each player who drops 9 pRes on hydras has to wait longer before they can afford to lerk or fade. The timing of the arrival of the first fade on the battlefield is still pretty pivotal (not as much as the days of yore, but still). 9 pRes translates to about 2.5 minutes @ 3 harvesters, so you're looking at facing an extra armour and/or weapon upgrade. Again, this can be mitigated by just having a few people not drop hydras, but that in turn weakens the effective gain of early hyper... nice little catch 22.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The first two bullets are not downsides as you reasoned possible tradeoffs for not having the whole team go hypermutation. It may make sense to not have everyone hypermutate, but in a 6v6, if only 4-5 people hypermutate to gorge you get 12-15 hydras at your hive which imo is still plenty. Hypermutating into gorge does not require you to drop 3 hydras either. If the whole team hypermutates and drops 2 hydras, each persons individual pres investment is less, yet you still get 12 hydras for defense.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--></li><li>Once those early hydras are dropped you're then playing with skulks without celerity or adren. So you're going to want to get celerty or adren anyway, which means you're simply bumping every other thing like 2nd hive, leap etc down the priority list. It's not a huge deal but the question is: will those clogs & hydras make up for weaker skulks in the short term?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Adren and celerity are used to buff the individual player, which is why they are more popular than hypermutation. A case can be made that hypermutation does not buff you individually, but buffs your attack squad since anyone can go gorge (literally evolve in 1 second.) Anytime you can regroup, have one person go gorge, and attack. How much more effective are aliens attacking with a gorge healing, compared to without a gorge and upgrading celerity and adren instead?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--></li><li>As marine comm, I'm going to know within 2 minutes (due to active scans and marine scouting) exactly what strategy has been played. I would then ask my marines to ruthlessly suicide rush hydras with rifles, kill as many as possible before unlocking shotguns. Hydras go down really fast to a pair of rifles. I'd seek to wreck any advantage those early hydras provided and in fact turn it against the aliens making them perceive it as wasted pRes.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The role of the hydras are not to kill the marines, but to stall them. If a squad of marines are determined to take the hydras out, then mission accomplished for aliens! This gives skulks map control and lets them chomp on the marine base and/or force beacons.
One sidenote i think is really important which dopedog mentioned is hiding in a vent and hypermutating to gorge to heal yourself. Staying alive when deep in enemy territory harassing res nodes is very annoying for marines. Too many times I've seen skulks near marine base escape by the skin of their teeth and literally become worthless because they are too far from base to heal and don't have enough health to fight.
Sure, it's possible for gorges to not build all 3 hydras. Let's say they build 2. Now why not just have fewer gorges but have them all drop 3 hydras? That way you have a few people who can perform normal skulk duties right from the start of the game and they'll hit lerk & fade pRes points at the normal timings.
The reason I proposed having the whole team drop hydras was to maximise the benefit of hypermutation. You've got to keep in mind that the alternative is an entire team using celerity and celerity is useful on every lifeform.
(Total team benefit) = (number of players using an evolution) x (improved ability of individual players)
<!--quoteo(post=1989507:date=Oct 11 2012, 01:04 PM:name=Kiai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiai @ Oct 11 2012, 01:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Adren and celerity are used to buff the individual player, which is why they are more popular than hypermutation. A case can be made that hypermutation does not buff you individually, but buffs your attack squad since anyone can go gorge (literally evolve in 1 second.) Anytime you can regroup, have one person go gorge, and attack. How much more effective are aliens attacking with a gorge healing, compared to without a gorge and upgrading celerity and adren instead?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I get your point. The obvious caveat is 'anytime you can regroup'. Your mileage may vary. I like to battlegorge in the early game, 3 skulks supported by a gorge can be crazy effective when you can get up in the marines face, what with healspray keeping those skulks alive and wounding the marine. In general I'd say Gorge and Lerk fill more team oriented roles anyway, since there's not nearly as much individual glory (ie: KDR). If hypermutation encourages people to use those lifeforms, inherently the style of play will be different. The gotcha is that the more people fill support roles, the fewer people there are to actually soldier. And that's the core issue with hypermutation - celerity can benefit every lifeform (even gorges) in perpetuity whereas anybody who wants to solider can't frequently benefit from hypermuation.
<!--quoteo(post=1989507:date=Oct 11 2012, 01:04 PM:name=Kiai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiai @ Oct 11 2012, 01:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The role of the hydras are not to kill the marines, but to stall them. If a squad of marines are determined to take the hydras out, then mission accomplished for aliens! This gives skulks map control and lets them chomp on the marine base and/or force beacons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree about stalling, but completely disagree with the implication that building hydras to soak up rifle time is worthwhile. They are expensive and you should evaluate what else that pRes could do for you. 3 pRes blown on a single rifle clip which is 2(?) seconds of fire time? Not even close. As a marine comm I would cry tears of happiness to have the aliens expose their pRes to my guys' rifle fire like that. The idea that they would keep using hypermutation to re-drop hydras? Oh good, I never have to worry about fades ever again!
<!--quoteo(post=1989507:date=Oct 11 2012, 01:04 PM:name=Kiai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiai @ Oct 11 2012, 01:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One sidenote i think is really important which dopedog mentioned is hiding in a vent and hypermutating to gorge to heal yourself. Staying alive when deep in enemy territory harassing res nodes is very annoying for marines. Too many times I've seen skulks near marine base escape by the skin of their teeth and literally become worthless because they are too far from base to heal and don't have enough health to fight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, and regen is another way skulks can do the exact same thing. Of course, regen is way less fiddly. They could also run back to a hive or a gorge or a forward crag base and... celerity makes that much faster. Again the benefit you've listed is real and undeniable. It just doesn't stack up well with the alternatives.
The reason I proposed having the whole team drop hydras was to maximise the benefit of hypermutation. You've got to keep in mind that the alternative is an entire team using celerity and celerity is useful on every lifeform.
(Total team benefit) = (number of players using an evolution) x (improved ability of individual players)
I get your point. The obvious caveat is 'anytime you can regroup'. Your mileage may vary. I like to battlegorge in the early game, 3 skulks supported by a gorge can be crazy effective when you can get up in the marines face, what with healspray keeping those skulks alive and wounding the marine. In general I'd say Gorge and Lerk fill more team oriented roles anyway, since there's not nearly as much individual glory (ie: KDR). If hypermutation encourages people to use those lifeforms, inherently the style of play will be different. The gotcha is that the more people fill support roles, the fewer people there are to actually soldier. And that's the core issue with hypermutation - celerity can benefit every lifeform (even gorges) in perpetuity whereas anybody who wants to solider can't frequently benefit from hypermuation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I tend to agree with all your points but only from a pub point of view. I should clarify that the arguments i make for hypermutation are geared toward competitive play as i alluded to in my post on page 2 of this thread. This is because in comp play teamwork is much more organized, and hypermutation benefits greatly from this.
In comp play, regrouping to attack is extremely common, and anyone on the team would be willing to go battle gorge while the rest stay as skulks.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree about stalling, but completely disagree with the implication that building hydras to soak up rifle time is worthwhile. They are expensive and you should evaluate what else that pRes could do for you. 3 pRes blown on a single rifle clip which is 2(?) seconds of fire time? Not even close. As a marine comm I would cry tears of happiness to have the aliens expose their pRes to my guys' rifle fire like that. The idea that they would keep using hypermutation to re-drop hydras? Oh good, I never have to worry about fades ever again!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We can debate whether an alien losing pres to a hydra is worth it or not. Remember, while marines attack hydras we have to ask how much damage is being done to marine infrastructure? How many res nodes can the aliens destroy? Can they destroy infantry portals? How much tres do marines lose? This really depends on how well each team plays out this strategy.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure, and regen is another way skulks can do the exact same thing. Of course, regen is way less fiddly. They could also run back to a hive or a gorge or a forward crag base and... celerity makes that much faster. Again the benefit you've listed is real and undeniable. It just doesn't stack up well with the alternatives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From a pub standpoint yes you are right. From a comp point of view though, this is icing on the cake. If we think of the benefits opening with hypermutation instead of fast hive, what benefits do we achieve? Lots of hive defense from hydras, this allows skulks to put forth more map pressure, allows Khamm to grab 2nd harvester faster than normal AND skulks near marine base can hop into a vent hypermutate and heal without going crag hive! Also lets be honest, if i'm in a vent, regeneration takes time to kick in anyway. In the same time I can evolve into a gorge in 1 second and heal myself. The only real disadvantage in this scenario is i have to click more buttons to evolve to gorge and back to skulk whereas regen requires me to click no buttons.
<ul><li>To get the most out of it you need to have no gorges until hypermutation is up, which means nobody will be fast-building harvesters or 2nd hive and there will be no early hydras defending a rush against your one main hive. That risk goes away after about 2 minutes, and/or you can have somebody gorge before hyper is up - it's an interesting temptation either way.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is it not possible to gorge, then when hypermutation is up, evolve hypermutation, then unevolve into skulk and reclaim res? Or do you have to get hypermutation before/when you go gorge to get that res back? I'm not sure about how it works. If it works the first way, then hypermutation will be up by the time the gorges finish building, and placing clogs and hydras. If it works the second way, then, yeah, then you can't do it as early (which is hugely vital, because clogs and hydra's are more effective when placed in choke points early game - e.g. like defending off a 3rd hive outpost, or if you're pipeline in veil, cutting marines off outside topographical.
<!--quoteo(post=1989229:date=Oct 10 2012, 07:33 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Oct 10 2012, 07:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li>Each player who drops 9 pRes on hydras has to wait longer before they can afford to lerk or fade. The timing of the arrival of the first fade on the battlefield is still pretty pivotal (not as much as the days of yore, but still). 9 pRes translates to about 2.5 minutes @ 3 harvesters, so you're looking at facing an extra armour and/or weapon upgrade. Again, this can be mitigated by just having a few people not drop hydras, but that in turn weakens the effective gain of early hyper... nice little catch 22.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're right. I only suggested it to get the maximum benefit - though maybe not having EVERYBODY place hydras is better (as you can place clogs for free). Perhaps work out the essential chokepoints you want to hold off the marines from (in each alien/marine techpoint starting locations, for each map - i.e. cover every scenario), to work out how many people need to place hydras, and then the rest save for early lerk, then fade (by this time celerity should be researched, and unless want to go for an early onos, should evolve to skulk to reclaim res, die, then go celerity fade, rather than stay hypermutation fade).
<!--quoteo(post=1989229:date=Oct 10 2012, 07:33 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Oct 10 2012, 07:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li>Once those early hydras are dropped you're then playing with skulks without celerity or adren. So you're going to want to get celerty or adren anyway, which means you're simply bumping every other thing like 2nd hive, leap etc down the priority list. It's not a huge deal but the question is: will those clogs & hydras make up for weaker skulks in the short term?</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
maaaaaaybe. Celerity skulks are really powerful, especially early game. And although you can always celerity skulk after you've ungorged after hypermutation (of course you'd have to die first to do that), it wont be until abit later that celerity comes out. As for the clogs and hydras making up for no celerity - it depends if they're using them to their advantage or not. Staying on those choke holes, waiting for marines to waste a round on the clog walls, then rushing in as skulk to kill them all once they reload (might not work so well on a team of more than 2 marines though, if it's just one skulk). Then you can always hypermutate gorge again and rebuild the clog walls (unless you've already got a dedicated gorge there). Perhaps when there's dedicated gorges (i.e. people who stay gorge at the clog location), perhaps a shift would help.
<!--quoteo(post=1989229:date=Oct 10 2012, 07:33 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Oct 10 2012, 07:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li>As marine comm, I'm going to know within 2 minutes (due to active scans and marine scouting) exactly what strategy has been played. I would then ask my marines to ruthlessly suicide rush hydras with rifles, kill as many as possible before unlocking shotguns. Hydras go down really fast to a pair of rifles. I'd seek to wreck any advantage those early hydras provided and in fact turn it against the aliens making them perceive it as wasted pRes.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a legitimate concern. However, I think you just gotta be more careful about your hydra placement. Place the hydras out of where the immediate rifle fire will be. Let the marines waste their ammo on the clog wall rather than the hydras if a gorge isn't there to heal it (as well as a skulk - cause even one gorge cant outheal the rifle fire of one marine on lvl 0 weapons so you gotta get a skulk in there immediately after they waste a clip if they're shooting at hydras). If you have no gorge, place the hydras around the corner of the clog wall, so just in case they do break through, you can take evasive maneouvers and rush back in there while they're wasting their ammo fire on the hydras.
I think the key is for the clogs to take most of the fire, and have the skulks rush in on the reload. That way, they can hypermutate back to gorge, place more clogs, then back again, for free. Hydra's cost money, so keep them only as a backup if they break through the clog wall, especially if there's no gorge on site.
<!--quoteo(post=1989520:date=Oct 10 2012, 10:13 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Oct 10 2012, 10:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree about stalling, but completely disagree with the implication that building hydras to soak up rifle time is worthwhile. They are expensive and you should evaluate what else that pRes could do for you. 3 pRes blown on a single rifle clip which is 2(?) seconds of fire time? Not even close. As a marine comm I would cry tears of happiness to have the aliens expose their pRes to my guys' rifle fire like that. The idea that they would keep using hypermutation to re-drop hydras? Oh good, I never have to worry about fades ever again!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's more expensive? Losing a marine in a forward location the aliens want to keep because a skulk has rushed in while he's reloading from shooting hydras, or potentially losing 3 pres and keeping the forward base. Smart placement would mean that most ammo is used on clogs anyway. Smart marine tactics however might be able to (and probably will) trump it though.
<!--quoteo(post=1989520:date=Oct 10 2012, 10:13 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Oct 10 2012, 10:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure, and regen is another way skulks can do the exact same thing. Of course, regen is way less fiddly. They could also run back to a hive or a gorge or a forward crag base and... celerity makes that much faster. Again the benefit you've listed is real and undeniable. It just doesn't stack up well with the alternatives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm just saying, if you're already bound to hypermutation anyway, you can do that. And I only suggested it as a last resort type thing. I know it's fiddly, and probably takes a while to do, but you can still do it if it really comes down to it (although you better be somewhere they aren't gonna take 10 res from you when you go gorge). I wasn't saying it was a major benefit, because it is a fiddly roundabout method of healing, but you can still do it was my point.
I'd take a lot of what i'm saying with a grain of salt to be honest. I do think that hypermutation is definately a weak evolution trait. However, because it's so weak it hasn't really been explored how it could be used, if used correctly. Even if used smartly however, I don't think it will still be all that effective when looking at the tradeoffs on going different routes (early celerity, early res, early hive+leap) - and i'm kinda playing devils advocate to get discussion going on the legitimacy of using such strategies.
I think a lot of it is map specific and has to be preplanned to hell. It allows for a bunch of interesting things. For example, an unsuspecting marine team with a 2nd base in subsector in veil - if there's bile bomb, a team could gorge in overlook, build hydras all up the ramp to subsector, rush in and bile everything like crazy, belly slide down the ramp, heal and evolve skulk while the marines are getting nailed/distracted by hydras. And have the skulks come back up and clean up the rest of the marine. Of course that wouldn't work if the marines had grenades or lots of shotguns out (or jetpacks/exos for that matter). And this all takes a lot of coordination so good luck getting people to do that in a pub.
Strengths and weaknesses of opening strategies are amplified in competitive games. Coordination is improved for both teams. So, sadly, the the arguments I make against hypermutation go doubly so for competitive games. There is simply less tolerance for tRes spending that doesn't yield concrete results.
I have seen (and participated in) some some very creative strategies in competitive games but not once ever in the history of hypermutation have I seen it used early, if at all. If you've got a link to a video, I'd love to see it!
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>if i'm in a vent, regeneration takes time to kick in anyway<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Heh, that's just another way regen is better - you don't have to hide in a vent, you can just run off to the next extractor and start chomping while regen ticks away.
@dopedog
Yeah good point about early gorges picking up hypermutation after the fact, I don't know how that works. Maybe we can cross that disadvantage off the list.
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>What's more expensive? Losing a marine in a forward location...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
That's kind of a specific, favourable scenario compared to a generic one. Broadly speaking my thoughts on that are a) rifle marines are free and are very effective at attacking hydras in particular (more effective than shotgunners!) b) phase gates & sprinting allows those marines to get around so a forward marine is not as much of an investment.
I hear you on the devils advocate thing. I'm only here lambasting hypermutation in the hope that it leads to changes, and that those changes provide better strategic choice in the gameplay.
edit: there is a thread about this: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121874" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=121874</a>
What about the time it takes to evolve into an onos?
Evolving speed is increased in hypermutation...like semi-instant evolving....
I'm sorry, but no. Bitey also had Dr Pepper instead of Coke and pickles on his ham sandwhich that morning, which had about as much effect on the game as hyper mutation did.
Yaaay! Back to being serious with the tourny.
-Edit also, I had a 32oz Monster Super size. No pickles, tomato, 3 slices of cheese, 3 slices of bread (Big mac style), Loasd of lettuce, and some ranch dressing to top it off. Breakfeast of 'prospective' future champ!
Yaaay! Back to being serious with the tourny.
-Edit also, I had a 32oz Monster Super size. No pickles, tomato, 3 slices of cheese, 3 slices of bread (Big mac style), Loasd of lettuce, and some ranch dressing to top it off. Breakfeast of 'prospective' future champ!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No wonder you took that game!
I theorised that, when you died as onos, you were sitting in that corner trying to devolve before they got you. Was I correct?