<!--quoteo(post=1992037:date=Oct 16 2012, 02:03 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Oct 16 2012, 02:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992037"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Better coordinated teams regularly beat teams with higher individual skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prove it. Oh wait you can't, you are just saying things in an attempt to be right.
Its fully possible, and likely, that there are other important aspects to this game, besides just movement and aim. However, since this game is a first person shooter, I am going to have to say that being comfortable with the first person perspective, and the shooting part, are the most important aspects. I don't know, maybe I'm being revolutionary over here.
Also, it appears that you are saying that, once someone has mastered aiming in say, Quake 3, they are now considered a respectable source of balancing information for every first person shooter created after that. I don't know hey, sounds like you miiiiight be wrong there.
As for the 300 APM argument, I've never heard it, because I don't think anyone has ever made it. Scoughing at 300 APM is a good way to be ostracized by every conscious human being.
<!--quoteo(post=1992129:date=Oct 16 2012, 07:57 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 16 2012, 07:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992129"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Prove it. Oh wait you can't, you are just saying things in an attempt to be right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is you "just saying things in an attempt to be right". In this game there are a lot of things other than pure FPS skill that are very important. Really, you should ask from some competitive players who, you know, play a lot in a good team and dedicate a lot of their time to improving their game.
<!--quoteo(post=1992150:date=Oct 16 2012, 08:19 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Oct 16 2012, 08:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is you "just saying things in an attempt to be right". In this game there are a lot of things other than pure FPS skill that are very important. Really, you should ask from some competitive players who, you know, play a lot in a good team and dedicate a lot of their time to improving their game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because that's not a conflict of interest.
"Hi I'm umm.. trying to determine whether you are rly awesomesauce at thinking n stuff or if you are just good at aiming" "Oh, definitely the first one" "Ok thaaaaanks"
14 pages of mostly back and forth trash. All the while, only a few people have nigged onto the fact that the problem is skulk movement (skill ceiling and etc.) vs ever increasing marine fps.
<!--quoteo(post=1992161:date=Oct 16 2012, 10:55 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Oct 16 2012, 10:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992161"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->14 pages of mostly back and forth trash. All the while, only a few people have nigged onto the fact that the problem is skulk movement (skill ceiling and etc.) vs ever increasing marine fps.
This is why we can't have good things..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This happens with most big forums TBH. Repetition, trolls and same issues being talked to no avail cyclically when new players re-invent the wheel. This is why people tend to gravitate to private forums and I for one am such an elitist, I'm kind of missing an intelligent invite-only forum. I've seen the difference in other hobbies.
Oh, and since I'm pretty sure there must already be such invite-only forums, me not having an invite must mean that I'm part of the problem. Oh sh*t ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1992161:date=Oct 16 2012, 09:55 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Oct 16 2012, 09:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992161"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->14 pages of mostly back and forth trash. All the while, only a few people have nigged onto the fact that the problem is skulk movement (skill ceiling and etc.) vs ever increasing marine fps.
This is why we can't have good things..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So lets see. All the discussion not relating to your point of view is trash?
You are apart of the problem. Sooner you realize that, the sooner you stop being ignorant. Not being ignorant isn't some sort of life improvement though, its just a choice really.
Hit registration was god awful a couple of months ago. During that time, developers were trying to balance a game were hitting a skulk with a level 1 shotgun 3 times meant that you were still diced meat.
Hit registration needed to be fixed *before* any balancing issues (besides glaring ones like frenzy).
Fortunately, hit registration has gotten much better. Consequently, this made made it much easier for Marines to kill aliens (rightly so). This is one of the major reasons why Marines are doing much better than they used to a couple of months ago.
BTW, do marines suffer some sort of penalty when they're bitten by skulks apart from health loss? Wouldn't it be cool (and make some sort of realistic sense) if you got an aim penalty or screen disorientation?
<!--quoteo(post=1992184:date=Oct 16 2012, 05:57 AM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Oct 16 2012, 05:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992184"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nah they fly 10 metres giving them more range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well duh, sharp pointy teeth curved inwards are nature's way of making sure that prey bounce away to safety.
This pretty accurately represents my personal experience with the build. Just seems to be alot more games where marines walk into a hive shoot all the eggs and then kill it. Could be just my experience though.
Alright! I just read through all the responses. Whew.
First I want to thank everyone for contributing nicely. @rebirth, thanks for taking the time to understand where I'm coming from. I want to re-iterate a few important points that might have been lost in the minutia of passionate discourse.
Balance is independent of skill levels. Claiming the game cannot be balanced for both public and competitive play is simply not true. Sure, minor rule set adjustments may need to be made, such as round time and the like, but a competitive mod is inadvisable because it would split the community. Remember, because the individual skill levels of players on the teams is theoretically random, a pub match will have an equal number of talented players. In a balanced game, both sides get to have fun. The skill level of the players has nothing to do with the "true balance" of the game.
To those who pre-ordered and are worried about the game, fear not. If the game wasn't fun we wouldn't be here arguing at each other over something we didn't value.
There seems to be consensus amongst the player base that aliens suck. There's easy solutions to these problems. Focus web, and ability retention have been discussed at length. I believe it will be fixed.
Rarely in game communities do you find similar consensus to what we've seen here. Crikey, this is a 15 page long thread about the most important aspect to the long term health of the game! I am saddened that we don't see a developer response in this thread given the amount of feed back provided, but I am still optimistic for the game and will be there on launch day with the rest of you louts.
<!--quoteo(post=1992334:date=Oct 16 2012, 04:59 PM:name=mR.Waffles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mR.Waffles @ Oct 16 2012, 04:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992334"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rarely in game communities do you find similar consensus to what we've seen here. Crikey, this is a 15 page long thread about the most important aspect to the long term health of the game! I am saddened that we don't see a developer response in this thread given the amount of feed back provided, but I am still optimistic for the game and will be there on launch day with the rest of you louts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hugh posted a response in another thread <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=121826&view=findpost&p=1991805" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1991805</a>
He says marines win 54% of games. NS2 stats says 63%. So the data they collect must be different from ns2 stats, maybe sampling more servers.
He also says that the maps have a huge effect on balance and some of them are not balanced well.
We can't play without maps so that needs to be a priority. If the maps (some more than others) themselves are not balanced I guess that makes it hard to balance the game mechanics, like building a house on top of a giant see saw. Maybe they should have released the maps earlier in the beta so they'd be more balanced by this stage.
The perceived swing towards marines is not as large as some posts would lead you to believe. Every build from 212 to 222 has favoured aliens, (except 220, which was 49.8/50.2 in favour of marines). 223 favours marines 53.9% to 46.1% (p=~2000) which is still well within Starcraft 2 levels of 'acceptable balance.'
It is likely that after several months of high alien win rates, our perception of 'normal' has been skewed away from marine wins. Your perception of balance will also be skewed by map favouritism. For example, if you like to play a lot of Docking (like me) you will be experiences higher numbers of marine wins, as that is currently the least balanced map (changes coming). Tram is currently the most balanced map (49.4 / 50.6) closely followed by Summit. Mineshaft is skewed in the other direction at the moment and is also being worked on.
Further evidence to argue against a significant inherent imbalance in the game can be found from a competitive perspective. In the recent Guru Tournament, an incredible (and previously unthinkable) 86% of best of x matches were taken as straight wins by one team.
If you are forming an opinion about the current state of NS2 balance, you had best ignore the more extreme posts in this thread. Look instead to the numerous nuanced, thoughtful pieces of discussion. NS2 long ago moved away from the terrible, clearly biased 'macro-balance' of the Alpha and early Beta builds. We are now well and truly at the point where 'micro-balance' is the focus. For example 'exosuits are arriving at the 1 minute mark. The game balance may be 50/50 but exosuits at the 1 minute mark is terrible gameplay.' Obviously this is not true, it's just an example.
EDIT: Another example could be 'marines are getting 2 kills for every alien kill, the game may be 50/50 but this is not fun.' (The stats indicate that marine kills could be getting out of hand, and that is being looked at).
'OMG WTF UWE they always nerf aliens!!11! Marines always win game balance is [insert rage expletive]' - This kind of assertion is obviously untrue, unhelpful, and does not contribute to discovery of real balance issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1992347:date=Oct 16 2012, 12:12 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Oct 16 2012, 12:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992347"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hugh posted a response in another thread <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=121826&view=findpost&p=1991805" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1991805</a>
He says marines win 54% of games. NS2 stats says 63%. So the data they collect must be different from ns2 stats, maybe sampling more servers.
He also says that the maps have a huge effect on balance and some of them are not balanced well.
We can't play without maps so that needs to be a priority. If the maps (some more than others) themselves are not balanced I guess that makes it hard to balance the game mechanics, like building a house on top of a giant see saw. Maybe they should have released the maps earlier in the beta so they'd be more balanced by this stage.
I appreciate the link and I'll read up when I get back from lunch. Thanks for this.
Also, I'm skeptical of their data. I wonder how many players need to be in a game for it to count towards the stats. It's much easier for aliens to win low population games.
<!--quoteo(post=1992347:date=Oct 16 2012, 08:12 AM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Oct 16 2012, 08:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992347"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hugh posted a response in another thread <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=121826&view=findpost&p=1991805" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1991805</a>
He says marines win 54% of games. NS2 stats says 63%. So the data they collect must be different from ns2 stats, maybe sampling more servers.
He also says that the maps have a huge effect on balance and some of them are not balanced well.
We can't play without maps so that needs to be a priority. If the maps (some more than others) themselves are not balanced I guess that makes it hard to balance the game mechanics, like building a house on top of a giant see saw. Maybe they should have released the maps earlier in the beta so they'd be more balanced by this stage.
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1992347:date=Oct 16 2012, 06:12 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Oct 16 2012, 06:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992347"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He says marines win 54% of games. NS2 stats says 63%. So the data they collect must be different from ns2 stats, maybe sampling more servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
UWE gets data from all the servers while NS2Stats gets data from only the<a href="http://ns2stats.org/server/index" target="_blank"> servers where NS2Stats is installed</a>.
NS2Stats doesn't take into account rounds that have less than 10 players for the majority of the round.
When we get more data of this build i might crunch some numbers to see what the winrate is without early skulk rushes, early onos, early leap, etc. and also to see how is are the kill rates and average lifetimes of each lifeform, etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1992347:date=Oct 16 2012, 11:12 AM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Oct 16 2012, 11:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992347"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hugh posted a response in another thread <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=121826&view=findpost&p=1991805" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1991805</a>
He says marines win 54% of games. NS2 stats says 63%. So the data they collect must be different from ns2 stats, maybe sampling more servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the big problem I notice when people start throwing out the percentages of win/loss and saying that the game is balancing out.
A 50/50% doesn't mean jack when you have no idea of how the data was captured.
<!--quoteo(post=1992363:date=Oct 16 2012, 11:40 AM:name=MiniH0wie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MiniH0wie @ Oct 16 2012, 11:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is the big problem I notice when people start throwing out the percentages of win/loss and saying that the game is balancing out.
A 50/50% doesn't mean jack when you have no idea of how the data was captured.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed - Numbers only tell half the story, its important to keep that in mind when making important changes. When changing something you can't just randomly do it in sake of balance, you have to make sure it does not take any fun away from the game. I have been worried for some time since I see so many discussions about how close the balance is to 50% but not enough talk about the real issues like the lerk being really bad or how aliens play on 1 hive.
Killing eggs seems to happen every game now if Marines push into a hive
Alien equivalent is 2+ gorges going in with bilebomb which you almost never see because it has to be planned out ahead of time where the other team can just seize the opportunity
<!--quoteo(post=1992390:date=Oct 16 2012, 01:01 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Oct 16 2012, 01:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992390"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Indeed - Numbers only tell half the story, its important to keep that in mind when making important changes. When changing something you can't just randomly do it in sake of balance, you have to make sure it does not take any fun away from the game. I have been worried for some time since I see so many discussions about how close the balance is to 50% but not enough talk about the real issues like the lerk being really bad or how aliens play on 1 hive.
But I hope these are unnecessary worries.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerk always bugs me. I want to play him so often but just end up dying realy quickly to some shotgun blast. It is not that I am not flying erratically or something to avoid fire. But all his abilities make him point blank in the face of the enemy. I mean, Idk how to blanace the poor dude. I love him so. Getting akill with him is hella satisying (so is flying)
Watching the Q&A now <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/335793780" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/335793780</a>
Charlie says
- marines phase gates are used too often and that may be addressed after 1.0
- With regards to balance, "fun more important than win rate", but for as a competitive game he says ns2 win rate should be balanced.
<!--quoteo(post=1992523:date=Oct 16 2012, 03:07 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Oct 16 2012, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992523"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Watching the Q&A now <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/335793780" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/335793780</a>
Charlie says
- marines phase gates are used too often and that may be addressed after 1.0
- With regards to balance, "fun more important than win rate", but for as a competitive game he says ns2 win rate should be balanced.
- Aliens without tier 3 will get something
- More traps for aliens<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great link! i am watching the video now. They also mention Marines vs Marines, or Aliens vs Aliens which would be so awesome! I feel they are moving to the right direction.
About the ,,marines phase gates are used too often and that may be addressed after 1.0". I think the biggest problem is the marine spawn time. It gives the phase gates so much advantage over other upgrades. It allows them to reenforce their phase gates very quickly and effectively with little to no delay. Even if aliens manage to surround the phase gate the knockback kinda neglects part of that advantage and give the marines a good chance to get it back. Which is the other problem :).
supsuJoin Date: 2012-04-24Member: 151023Members, Squad Five Blue
Aliens in public are pretty much broken because they need so much coordination and teamplay. I don't think it's bad at all but it won't work in public ever. I think marine vs skulk 1v1 win % in public is like 80% or something crazy like that in favor of marines when it should be 60%. This is mostly because biting requires aiming and not just spamming mouse1 and because of the knockback bug.
But aliens overall on one hive are pretty broken, they can't do really anything but I feel like this patch was a right step towards the right path with all the movement changes but I'm still not satisfied with the movement currently but at least they are starting to realize it's an issue and working on it. And lerk really needs his spore cloud back how it was in ns1, that'd really make the aliens a ###### loads better in the early game, I still don't understand why it isn't in the game already, Charlie should already give up and just do it but if the past has taught us anything, he won't. Who knows, most of their changes and stuff make no sense at all, at least to a person who has played ns1, but I hope they can sort this mess out for everyone's sake.
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
Inspired by this thread I hacked a page hastily to show some aggregate data from NS2Stats: <a href="http://ns2stats.org/balance/index" target="_blank">http://ns2stats.org/balance/index</a> (Can take a while to load because of the extensive number crunching)
I will add more stuff on it in the future, make it faster and integrate it better with the rest of the website.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1992555:date=Oct 17 2012, 01:33 AM:name=Zeikko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeikko @ Oct 17 2012, 01:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992555"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Inspired by this thread I hacked a page hastily to show some aggregate data from NS2Stats: <a href="http://ns2stats.org/balance/index" target="_blank">http://ns2stats.org/balance/index</a> (Can take a while to load because of the extensive number crunching)
I will add more stuff on it in the future, make it faster and integrate it better with the rest of the website.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting that skulk is at it's lowest usage since records began, and Gorge is up at it's highest. All the other lifeforms are slowly getting used, I just feel this has been achieved by having a poor skulk, and making people change because they'd rather play as anything else than skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=1992545:date=Oct 16 2012, 08:04 PM:name=supsu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (supsu @ Oct 16 2012, 08:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens in public are pretty much broken because they need so much coordination and teamplay. I don't think it's bad at all but it won't work in public ever. I think marine vs skulk 1v1 win % in public is like 80% or something crazy like that in favor of marines when it should be 60%. This is mostly because biting requires aiming and not just spamming mouse1 and because of the knockback bug.
But aliens overall on one hive are pretty broken, they can't do really anything but I feel like this patch was a right step towards the right path with all the movement changes but I'm still not satisfied with the movement currently but at least they are starting to realize it's an issue and working on it. And lerk really needs his spore cloud back how it was in ns1, that'd really make the aliens a ###### loads better in the early game, I still don't understand why it isn't in the game already, Charlie should already give up and just do it but if the past has taught us anything, he won't. Who knows, most of their changes and stuff make no sense at all, at least to a person who has played ns1, but I hope they can sort this mess out for everyone's sake.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the stats from zeikko kinda show part of why aliens have to play so coordinated to have any chance of winning. 75%+ skulk and gorge play compared to the other lifeforms. Even with veteran players in ns1 you never got high level of coordination going out side of competitive matches. In public games the skulks usually just followed the lerks/fades into battle which gave them the fighting chance they needed. In ns2 the skulk is kinda the base lifeform all game long and has been balanced that way. I think having the adv lifeforms used so little is just huge amount of unused game material that could make the game so much better.
I also think lerk spores should be from hive one. Giving the lerk 2 raw fighting skills from the start makes them very similar to skulk and fades. Trying to make it fit between them and still be viable will be very hard. I think it would be much more rewarding to give him his unique skill right of the bat.
Comments
Prove it. Oh wait you can't, you are just saying things in an attempt to be right.
Its fully possible, and likely, that there are other important aspects to this game, besides just movement and aim. However, since this game is a first person shooter, I am going to have to say that being comfortable with the first person perspective, and the shooting part, are the most important aspects. I don't know, maybe I'm being revolutionary over here.
Also, it appears that you are saying that, once someone has mastered aiming in say, Quake 3, they are now considered a respectable source of balancing information for every first person shooter created after that. I don't know hey, sounds like you miiiiight be wrong there.
As for the 300 APM argument, I've never heard it, because I don't think anyone has ever made it. Scoughing at 300 APM is a good way to be ostracized by every conscious human being.
This is you "just saying things in an attempt to be right". In this game there are a lot of things other than pure FPS skill that are very important. Really, you should ask from some competitive players who, you know, play a lot in a good team and dedicate a lot of their time to improving their game.
Because that's not a conflict of interest.
"Hi I'm umm.. trying to determine whether you are rly awesomesauce at thinking n stuff or if you are just good at aiming"
"Oh, definitely the first one"
"Ok thaaaaanks"
This is why we can't have good things..
This is why we can't have good things..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This happens with most big forums TBH. Repetition, trolls and same issues being talked to no avail cyclically when new players re-invent the wheel. This is why people tend to gravitate to private forums and I for one am such an elitist, I'm kind of missing an intelligent invite-only forum. I've seen the difference in other hobbies.
Oh, and since I'm pretty sure there must already be such invite-only forums, me not having an invite must mean that I'm part of the problem. Oh sh*t ;)
This is why we can't have good things..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So lets see. All the discussion not relating to your point of view is trash?
You are apart of the problem. Sooner you realize that, the sooner you stop being ignorant. Not being ignorant isn't some sort of life improvement though, its just a choice really.
Hit registration needed to be fixed *before* any balancing issues (besides glaring ones like frenzy).
Fortunately, hit registration has gotten much better. Consequently, this made made it much easier for Marines to kill aliens (rightly so). This is one of the major reasons why Marines are doing much better than they used to a couple of months ago.
Well duh, sharp pointy teeth curved inwards are nature's way of making sure that prey bounce away to safety.
<b>Victories from build 217 -> 223 (rounded to nearest 1%)</b>
<b>Aliens</b>
55% -> 55% -> 54% -> 49% -> 58% -> 37%
<b>Marines</b>
45% -> %45% -> 46% -> 51% -> 42% -> 63%
<b>Build 223: </b>
Aliens win 37.08% (66 games)
Marines win 62.92% (112 games)
<b>Build 221: </b>
Aliens win 58.38% (289 games)
Marines win 41.62% (206 games)
<b>Build 220: </b>
Aliens win 49.24% (419 games)
Marines win 50.76% (432 games)
<b>Build 219: </b>
Aliens win 54.36% (312 games)
Marines win 45.64% (262 games)
<b>Build 218: </b>
Aliens win 55.26% (352 games)
Marines win 44.74% (285 games)
<b>Build 217 (exo suit build): </b>
Aliens win 55.47% (345 games)
Marines win 44.53% (277 games)
(no stats for 222 probably because 223 came out one day after it)
Build 223:
Aliens win 37.08% (66 games)
Marines win 62.92% (112 games)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This pretty accurately represents my personal experience with the build. Just seems to be alot more games where marines walk into a hive shoot all the eggs and then kill it. Could be just my experience though.
First I want to thank everyone for contributing nicely. @rebirth, thanks for taking the time to understand where I'm coming from. I want to re-iterate a few important points that might have been lost in the minutia of passionate discourse.
Balance is independent of skill levels. Claiming the game cannot be balanced for both public and competitive play is simply not true. Sure, minor rule set adjustments may need to be made, such as round time and the like, but a competitive mod is inadvisable because it would split the community. Remember, because the individual skill levels of players on the teams is theoretically random, a pub match will have an equal number of talented players. In a balanced game, both sides get to have fun. The skill level of the players has nothing to do with the "true balance" of the game.
To those who pre-ordered and are worried about the game, fear not. If the game wasn't fun we wouldn't be here arguing at each other over something we didn't value.
There seems to be consensus amongst the player base that aliens suck. There's easy solutions to these problems. Focus web, and ability retention have been discussed at length. I believe it will be fixed.
Rarely in game communities do you find similar consensus to what we've seen here. Crikey, this is a 15 page long thread about the most important aspect to the long term health of the game! I am saddened that we don't see a developer response in this thread given the amount of feed back provided, but I am still optimistic for the game and will be there on launch day with the rest of you louts.
Hugh posted a response in another thread <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=121826&view=findpost&p=1991805" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1991805</a>
He says marines win 54% of games. NS2 stats says 63%. So the data they collect must be different from ns2 stats, maybe sampling more servers.
He also says that the maps have a huge effect on balance and some of them are not balanced well.
We can't play without maps so that needs to be a priority. If the maps (some more than others) themselves are not balanced I guess that makes it hard to balance the game mechanics, like building a house on top of a giant see saw. Maybe they should have released the maps earlier in the beta so they'd be more balanced by this stage.
Hugh (Strayan) post
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Balance (/me dons flame retardant suit).
The perceived swing towards marines is not as large as some posts would lead you to believe. Every build from 212 to 222 has favoured aliens, (except 220, which was 49.8/50.2 in favour of marines). 223 favours marines 53.9% to 46.1% (p=~2000) which is still well within Starcraft 2 levels of 'acceptable balance.'
It is likely that after several months of high alien win rates, our perception of 'normal' has been skewed away from marine wins. Your perception of balance will also be skewed by map favouritism. For example, if you like to play a lot of Docking (like me) you will be experiences higher numbers of marine wins, as that is currently the least balanced map (changes coming). Tram is currently the most balanced map (49.4 / 50.6) closely followed by Summit. Mineshaft is skewed in the other direction at the moment and is also being worked on.
Further evidence to argue against a significant inherent imbalance in the game can be found from a competitive perspective. In the recent Guru Tournament, an incredible (and previously unthinkable) 86% of best of x matches were taken as straight wins by one team.
If you are forming an opinion about the current state of NS2 balance, you had best ignore the more extreme posts in this thread. Look instead to the numerous nuanced, thoughtful pieces of discussion. NS2 long ago moved away from the terrible, clearly biased 'macro-balance' of the Alpha and early Beta builds. We are now well and truly at the point where 'micro-balance' is the focus. For example 'exosuits are arriving at the 1 minute mark. The game balance may be 50/50 but exosuits at the 1 minute mark is terrible gameplay.' Obviously this is not true, it's just an example.
EDIT: Another example could be 'marines are getting 2 kills for every alien kill, the game may be 50/50 but this is not fun.' (The stats indicate that marine kills could be getting out of hand, and that is being looked at).
'OMG WTF UWE they always nerf aliens!!11! Marines always win game balance is [insert rage expletive]' - This kind of assertion is obviously untrue, unhelpful, and does not contribute to discovery of real balance issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He says marines win 54% of games. NS2 stats says 63%. So the data they collect must be different from ns2 stats, maybe sampling more servers.
He also says that the maps have a huge effect on balance and some of them are not balanced well.
We can't play without maps so that needs to be a priority. If the maps (some more than others) themselves are not balanced I guess that makes it hard to balance the game mechanics, like building a house on top of a giant see saw. Maybe they should have released the maps earlier in the beta so they'd be more balanced by this stage.
Hugh (Strayan) post<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I appreciate the link and I'll read up when I get back from lunch. Thanks for this.
Also, I'm skeptical of their data. I wonder how many players need to be in a game for it to count towards the stats. It's much easier for aliens to win low population games.
He says marines win 54% of games. NS2 stats says 63%. So the data they collect must be different from ns2 stats, maybe sampling more servers.
He also says that the maps have a huge effect on balance and some of them are not balanced well.
We can't play without maps so that needs to be a priority. If the maps (some more than others) themselves are not balanced I guess that makes it hard to balance the game mechanics, like building a house on top of a giant see saw. Maybe they should have released the maps earlier in the beta so they'd be more balanced by this stage.
Hugh (Strayan) post<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In any asymmetric game maps are simply a part of balance. However balance through map design is not the best way to accomplish it imo.
UWE gets data from all the servers while NS2Stats gets data from only the<a href="http://ns2stats.org/server/index" target="_blank"> servers where NS2Stats is installed</a>.
NS2Stats doesn't take into account rounds that have less than 10 players for the majority of the round.
When we get more data of this build i might crunch some numbers to see what the winrate is without early skulk rushes, early onos, early leap, etc. and also to see how is are the kill rates and average lifetimes of each lifeform, etc.
He says marines win 54% of games. NS2 stats says 63%. So the data they collect must be different from ns2 stats, maybe sampling more servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the big problem I notice when people start throwing out the percentages of win/loss and saying that the game is balancing out.
A 50/50% doesn't mean jack when you have no idea of how the data was captured.
A 50/50% doesn't mean jack when you have no idea of how the data was captured.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed - Numbers only tell half the story, its important to keep that in mind when making important changes. When changing something you can't just randomly do it in sake of balance, you have to make sure it does not take any fun away from the game.
I have been worried for some time since I see so many discussions about how close the balance is to 50% but not enough talk about the real issues like the lerk being really bad or how aliens play on 1 hive.
But I hope these are unnecessary worries.
Alien equivalent is 2+ gorges going in with bilebomb which you almost never see because it has to be planned out ahead of time where the other team can just seize the opportunity
I have been worried for some time since I see so many discussions about how close the balance is to 50% but not enough talk about the real issues like the lerk being really bad or how aliens play on 1 hive.
But I hope these are unnecessary worries.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerk always bugs me. I want to play him so often but just end up dying realy quickly to some shotgun blast. It is not that I am not flying erratically or something to avoid fire. But all his abilities make him point blank in the face of the enemy. I mean, Idk how to blanace the poor dude. I love him so. Getting akill with him is hella satisying (so is flying)
Charlie says
- marines phase gates are used too often and that may be addressed after 1.0
- With regards to balance, "fun more important than win rate", but for as a competitive game he says ns2 win rate should be balanced.
- Aliens without tier 3 will get something
- More traps for aliens
Charlie says
- marines phase gates are used too often and that may be addressed after 1.0
- With regards to balance, "fun more important than win rate", but for as a competitive game he says ns2 win rate should be balanced.
- Aliens without tier 3 will get something
- More traps for aliens<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great link! i am watching the video now. They also mention Marines vs Marines, or Aliens vs Aliens which would be so awesome! I feel they are moving to the right direction.
But aliens overall on one hive are pretty broken, they can't do really anything but I feel like this patch was a right step towards the right path with all the movement changes but I'm still not satisfied with the movement currently but at least they are starting to realize it's an issue and working on it. And lerk really needs his spore cloud back how it was in ns1, that'd really make the aliens a ###### loads better in the early game, I still don't understand why it isn't in the game already, Charlie should already give up and just do it but if the past has taught us anything, he won't. Who knows, most of their changes and stuff make no sense at all, at least to a person who has played ns1, but I hope they can sort this mess out for everyone's sake.
I will add more stuff on it in the future, make it faster and integrate it better with the rest of the website.
I will add more stuff on it in the future, make it faster and integrate it better with the rest of the website.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting that skulk is at it's lowest usage since records began, and Gorge is up at it's highest. All the other lifeforms are slowly getting used, I just feel this has been achieved by having a poor skulk, and making people change because they'd rather play as anything else than skulk.
But aliens overall on one hive are pretty broken, they can't do really anything but I feel like this patch was a right step towards the right path with all the movement changes but I'm still not satisfied with the movement currently but at least they are starting to realize it's an issue and working on it. And lerk really needs his spore cloud back how it was in ns1, that'd really make the aliens a ###### loads better in the early game, I still don't understand why it isn't in the game already, Charlie should already give up and just do it but if the past has taught us anything, he won't. Who knows, most of their changes and stuff make no sense at all, at least to a person who has played ns1, but I hope they can sort this mess out for everyone's sake.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the stats from zeikko kinda show part of why aliens have to play so coordinated to have any chance of winning. 75%+ skulk and gorge play compared to the other lifeforms. Even with veteran players in ns1 you never got high level of coordination going out side of competitive matches. In public games the skulks usually just followed the lerks/fades into battle which gave them the fighting chance they needed. In ns2 the skulk is kinda the base lifeform all game long and has been balanced that way. I think having the adv lifeforms used so little is just huge amount of unused game material that could make the game so much better.
I also think lerk spores should be from hive one. Giving the lerk 2 raw fighting skills from the start makes them very similar to skulk and fades. Trying to make it fit between them and still be viable will be very hard. I think it would be much more rewarding to give him his unique skill right of the bat.