So why are marines so much more deadly than aliens?
FrontlinerDelta
Join Date: 2010-12-24 Member: 75924Members
Join Date: 2010-12-24 Member: 75924Members
And by this I mean, aliens don't have any way to scale like marines.
A free marine (ie just spawned) is much more dangerous and deadly than the skulk. Just as a player it feels like skulks become useless while a marine never is.
I mean what is the point of carapace if one shotgun blast insta-kills anyways?
A free marine (ie just spawned) is much more dangerous and deadly than the skulk. Just as a player it feels like skulks become useless while a marine never is.
I mean what is the point of carapace if one shotgun blast insta-kills anyways?
Comments
I think the current system works fine, but I always feel a little shortchanged when I think "That marine just spawned with over twice as much default armor and weapon damage." and I can't do anything but increase my armor just the same as I could 2 hives ago. I also think that new players may experience similar feelings.
Skulks have a speed advantage though, so while an absolutely perfect shotgun shot kills a skulk, it's not easy to land them with celerity/leap/blink/spore clouds, etc. Then again, good players still have no problem getting very high scores, especially with marines, and especially on pub. servers/games :-) .
But all of this is Natural Selection 101, does it really need a separate thread or an explanation?
It would be nice to levels added to the evolutions, ie Carapace 1, Carapace 2, etc...
Just joined 4 different servers trying to find a game that wasn't marines stomping.
Couldn't find one. And it doesn't help that everyone seems to know this and stacks marine side. And since this is PuG play, you can't rely on the Onos rush from commander to win. Other than that, I still feel Marines pretty much handsdown outclass the aliens.
Maybe the reason is that it's MUCH easier to be a "hero" and pull a high KDR on the marine side, while aliens are more about team ambushes and team rushes (lots of teamwork) which is more difficult to pull off on pubs.
The only way to be a hero on aliens is to be a fade and be REALLY good at it. Even then, if there are three competent shotgun users working together, you don't stand a chance.
The biggest reason aliens can still win games is the power node system.
The biggest reason aliens can still win games is the power node system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More like the only reason.
.....
Man you say some made up ######. How would you know what people like lol...
Skulk / lerk / fade at a high competitive level is extremely enjoyable.
The only argument against this is that skulk does not have the skill ceiling compared to ns1.
I agree. You can also go to ns2stats.org and see that yourself. Pick almost any high level competitive player and you can see that they play mostly marines in the couple of last builds.
I do that too because i think there's much more to learn and practice as individual marine. You will pretty much never hit a skill ceiling in aiming but with skulk it easy to feel that there's not much how you can improve your play individually as playing alien is mostly about teamwork, timing and communication. When the wallhop was still in i loved playing an alien because there was a mechanic that you could always practice and get better at.
Also the fact that pretty much only skulk, gorge and onos are used in competitive play currently because lerk and fade have been nerfed to floor doesn't help the fact. The lerk and fade have much higher skill ceiling but practicing them seems kinda worthless if UWE plans to keep them as they are.
I play the game and I see more recognizable/clan people on the marine side more often than on the alien side.
I did say "in my observation" so I do say some made up ###### indeed. Don't we all?
For example, how would you know that "Skulk / lerk / fade at a high competitive level is extremely enjoyable." for others too? Maybe you enjoy it and you're in the minority?
Basically what needs to happen imo is:
- Marine A3 and W3 needs to be moved to 2 CC. This is CRUCIAL, because currently marines can easily stay in the game, even at 1 TP. They have it much much easier than aliens in this regard
- Skulk needs to better scale into the lategame somehow, hopefully skill based movement will address this somewhat. (As it will help good skulks stay competitive)
- Gorge needs some love (tougher and/or better dps output), gorge and comm defenses need some love. (Whips need to be buffed again, hydra cap needs to be removed or increased to 5. They're weak enough and marines have plenty of counters)
- Fade blink needs a revert
- UWE needs to seriously consider allowing 1 hive to upgrade at least leap and maybe other lifeform abilities but at a mucher higher cost/research time. Or it needs to come up with another way to have even 1 hive aliens able to stay somewhat more competitive. Currently this is a huge problem, putting way too much emphasis on the second hive and making a second hive loss almost always a GG.
- Lerk needs spores back at T1, spikes should be buffed to become a proper T2 choice.
Skulk is a bit of a letdown at the moment with the boring movement.
Lerk has been boring for a long time. You can't engage average+ shotgun marines. Too expensive. Very fun in combat though, because you don't have to be afraid of dying and losing 30 res right away.
Fade's shadowstep and blink particularly are lackluster in 221.
Gorge spit's lagginess and invisibility to the gorge himself makes it all pointless to try and frag with.
Onos is pretty much cheesecake like the shotgun, but I don't like playing it.
Early game skulks are fragile, slow and extremely frustraging to play with. I usually have to force myself to train my skulk skills. Not much enjoyment to be had before some upgrades.
Fades blink is nerfed to such levels, that you're basically better off not using it, unless fighting against jetpackers in rooms where double-jump doesn't get you high enough. For most purposes, an upgraded skulk does the job better than a fade now, so why not just go for cele-cara-skulks, forget fades and save for onos.
As to the rest of the lifeforms: what Skie said.
Basically what needs to happen imo is:
- Marine A3 and W3 needs to be moved to 2 CC. This is CRUCIAL, because currently marines can easily stay in the game, even at 1 TP. They have it much much easier than aliens in this regard
- Skulk needs to better scale into the lategame somehow, hopefully skill based movement will address this somewhat. (As it will help good skulks stay competitive)
- Gorge needs some love (tougher and/or better dps output), gorge and comm defenses need some love. (Whips need to be buffed again, hydra cap needs to be removed or increased to 5. They're weak enough and marines have plenty of counters)
- Fade blink needs a revert
- UWE needs to seriously consider allowing 1 hive to upgrade at least leap and maybe other lifeform abilities but at a mucher higher cost/research time. Or it needs to come up with another way to have even 1 hive aliens able to stay somewhat more competitive. Currently this is a huge problem, putting way too much emphasis on the second hive and making a second hive loss almost always a GG.
- Lerk needs spores back at T1, spikes should be buffed to become a proper T2 choice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nope
and your first paragraph proves exactly why youre wrong. if you have "ninja marines" getting to your hive and killing your upgrades then your team is doing something wrong. i just dont see how you cannot possibly see this. your team being dominated because your team decides not to play aggressive and somehow this is some kind of balance issue? moving upgrades isnt going to fix the fact that your team isnt doing a thing to win the game. so youre saying youre playing games where marines are sitting on 5-6 rts PLUS 2 com chairs? where are your attackers, why arent they killing rts?! why arent your gorges blocking off choke points, why isnt your commander coordinating attacks?! wheres your 2nd hive that can be completely UP 2 minutes into the game?!
skulks do NOT need to be scaled for late game. skulks are base level attackers/defenders. late game youre supposed to be upgrading to tougher lifeforms. ffs ill put it in a way you may understand better. take a game like counter strike. youre saying that a glock is supposed to scale with a awp late game. theres a reason why the glock is the base weapon and the awp costs money and is valuable. skulks are the starter alien its not supposed to be used the ENTIRE GAME. late game if your team is throwing skulks against jp/shotgunners youre NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO WIN. yes theres still a chance but on the average you should lose this every time. same thing with turtling lmg marines with one com chair (if aliens werent so weak that would be blindingly obvious).
"basically" what needs to happen is alien teams need to stop camping around non choke points and constantly attack. gorges dont need a DPS boost because GORGES ARENT SUPPOSED TO BE ATTACKING. The spit is basically a defensive attack so that the gorge isnt COMPLETELY open to attack. why else do you think the gorge belly slide was added, so that gorges and run the heck away... hydras need to be increased to 4 or slightly buffed. leap needs to stay where it is at hive 2, hive drops are there for a reason, and the last thing the game needs is more coddling. bad teams shouldnt be rewarded for doing absolutely nothing. marines dont get free upgrades for squatting on one com chair all game, but you want 2nd tier upgrades at hive 1?!
"come up with another way to have even 1 hive aliens able to stay somewhat more competitive." just.. no. if alien teams need to stay in the game, drop hive 2, defend and get upgrades, just like marine teams do. and yes, losing a hive is supposed to hurt. same as losing a com chair hurts marines.
When they decide to change something IMO they'd be better doing it by 50% what they think it should be.
Otherwise it ends up changing the game too dramatically, and by the next build the teams have come up with entirely new tactics to overcome the big changes, so other problems are masked, left unnoticed, only to reappear 10 builds down the road, by which time there's a host of new features and balance issues to contend with.
It's hard to balance a game when the game changes with almost every build basically.
When they decide to change something IMO they'd be better doing it by 50% what they think it should be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT.
Every UWE change is an over-reaction, that then gets reduced incrementally. I'd rather it be not quite enough, then tweaked, rather than being too much and destroying the play.
A fully upgraded marine stands a very good chance against a fully upgraded skulk, a very good chance indeed. However, he doesn't stand much of a chance against a Lerk, but he can still pull it off. Against a Fade, he is pretty much guarenteed to die unless the Fade goes AFK. Against an Onos? No chance in hell.
Sure, being effective with a skulk can be difficult, but you are never helpless, no matter what you are fighting. The same cannot be said for a marine.
This is especially apparent on maps like docking, which they've made even more marine friendly by providing 'backdoor' corridors.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->skulks do NOT need to be scaled for late game. skulks are base level attackers/defenders. late game youre supposed to be upgrading to tougher lifeforms. ffs ill put it in a way you may understand better. take a game like counter strike. youre saying that a glock is supposed to scale with a awp late game. theres a reason why the glock is the base weapon and the awp costs money and is valuable. skulks are the starter alien its not supposed to be used the ENTIRE GAME.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This statement just proves how ignorant you are of the design of this game. Saying skulks don't need to scale because they are only there for the 'early game' isn't much different from saying that LMGs shouldn't scale to the lategame, since marines can just start using EXOs, shotguns, GLs and flamethrowers later on. What's further disturbing is that you are writing this in a way that only fuels my suspicion that you are the kind of person that can't be reasoned with anyway.
Skulks ARE supposed to be used the entire game, make no mistake about that. This a simple fact, as you will never have a team entirely consisting of higher lifeforms, and upon death you will be stuck playing a skulk for sometimes a significant period of time, in any stage of the game. (To claim that this isn't the case if you simply didn't die or were a better player would at the very least imply your opponents are bad, since even a good player will die at one point or another if he isn't facing complete tools) The second and third hive abilities given to the skulk aren't particularly helpful, since they are not accessible if your team is stuck or falls back to 1 hive (unlike marine A and W upgrades which are available on just 1 TP and allow the LMG to scale and remain highly competitive, also making the marine team as a whole much more resilient to setbacks)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->gorges dont need a DPS boost because GORGES ARENT SUPPOSED TO BE ATTACKING. The spit is basically a defensive attack so that the gorge isnt COMPLETELY open to attack. why else do you think the gorge belly slide was added, so that gorges and run the heck away..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's ridiculous that you automatically interpret a DPS boost as an offensive boost to the gorge. DPS boosts can't be useful on the defense, what now? Even if you boosted his DPS, you wouldn't see people use gorges offensively since he's too fragile of a unit for that. But right now the gorge is PISS POOR, even on defense. To not acknowledge this would only show that you probably never play the gorge in the first place. I guess you didn't get the memo that the gorge is supposedly a combat engineer class in NS2, but it goes without saying that currently he is NEITHER combat NOR engineer.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"come up with another way to have even 1 hive aliens able to stay somewhat more competitive." just.. no. if alien teams need to stay in the game, drop hive 2, defend and get upgrades, just like marine teams do. and yes, losing a hive is supposed to hurt. same as losing a com chair hurts marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was surpsised that I only picked up your raging marine bias at this point, but I'm glad I did in the end anyway. 'Just like marines do'. Because marines can't come back from losing a second chair? What now? Marines are WAY WAY WAY more resilient to setbacks like this, for aliens a second hive loss is almost always a GG. (Certainly if jetpacks are in play) For marines, even with a second CC loss it is still very manageable to get back in the game. (Thanks to W and A 3, ARCs, GLs, Shotguns and Flamethrowers all being available at 1 CC)
You're either blind or wilfully ignorant if you are going to claim marines do not have a huge tech advantage over aliens.
It's only going to get easier as an early marine as FPS increases, I'd say skulks are going to need some kind of buff to even it out, be it a speed boost or proper movement technique via bhop or making wall-jump actually useful.
They seem to have forgotten it.
There needs to be a cheap ranged class of aliens to satisfy shooters and people who like to improve their skills in shooting.
The problem with most players is that they mostly want to play a game where what they do is not so intense or in your face thus the millions of casual shooter players in CS, BF3, COD. Some people never want to play a close mouth or claw combat alien.
Therefore my solution I give to you a kinda new alien class:
For 15 res you get the skulk spitter!
A skulk instead of parasite he gets the powerful gorge spit!
He of course can get adrenalin or other upgrades. It let's more players spend their res if they think of it more like an upgrade class. Not OP yet not useless either. A cheap solution against JP.
Amazing or what?
Basically what needs to happen imo is:
- Marine A3 and W3 needs to be moved to 2 CC. This is CRUCIAL, because currently marines can easily stay in the game, even at 1 TP. They have it much much easier than aliens in this regard
- Skulk needs to better scale into the lategame somehow, hopefully skill based movement will address this somewhat. (As it will help good skulks stay competitive)
- Gorge needs some love (tougher and/or better dps output), gorge and comm defenses need some love. (Whips need to be buffed again, hydra cap needs to be removed or increased to 5. They're weak enough and marines have plenty of counters)
- Fade blink needs a revert
- UWE needs to seriously consider allowing 1 hive to upgrade at least leap and maybe other lifeform abilities but at a mucher higher cost/research time. Or it needs to come up with another way to have even 1 hive aliens able to stay somewhat more competitive. Currently this is a huge problem, putting way too much emphasis on the second hive and making a second hive loss almost always a GG.
- Lerk needs spores back at T1, spikes should be buffed to become a proper T2 choice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would really like to see all of those ideas either tested or restored.
Marines definitely have a great deal of power progression and flexibility, which aliens lack. It it frustrating to play as Aliens, as they hit the low tech "glass ceilings" repeatedly.
There needs to be a cheap ranged class of aliens to satisfy shooters and people who like to improve their skills in shooting.
The problem with most players is that they mostly want to play a game where what they do is not so intense or in your face thus the millions of casual shooter players in CS, BF3, COD. Some people never want to play a close mouth or claw combat alien.
Therefore my solution I give to you a kinda new alien class:
For 15 res you get the skulk spitter!
A skulk instead of parasite he gets the powerful gorge spit!
He of course can get adrenalin or other upgrades. It let's more players spend their res if they think of it more like an upgrade class. Not OP yet not useless either.
Amazing or what?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think lerk can fill the shooter role for aliens. Do you disagree?
The main problem is that lerk and fade are not worth their cost currently and skulk has no movement mechanic that scales with skill.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So why are marines so much more deadly than aliens?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because there is no skill-based movement system for skulks.
Combine the movement skills of skulk and the shooting skills of a marine and you have a very high skill cap.
Because there is no skill-based movement system for skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
- naturel HP regeneration is doubled on infestation
- infestation poisend marines for 1 dmg/sec
- movementspeed increased @ 15 % for aliens on infestation
- movementspeed decreased @ 15 % for marines on inf.
- all lifeforms are displayed on the minimap when entered the inf. (no macs and exos)
- infestation seclude a gas that blurry the marine sight just a bit when inhaled (after a few seconds on inf. Not for exos)
- infestation surrounds every cyst, makeing them harder to see and increased HP @ 20 %
- infestation destroys marine buildings slowly (like a poisoneffect)
Buy some flamethrower marine. They make sense now :> .
edit:
new thread for this
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121666" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=121666</a>
With performance increases and hit registration improving you're seeing a lot more accuracy from the marine bullets, while their tech tree has become cheaper and moved much earlier-game.
Things that I'd like to see:
Shadowstep gone, blink improved
Skulk movement skill (walljump, bunnyhopy, anything)
Adrenaline not being horrible (yeah yeah gorges and lerks use it -lol)
Because of these changes we would need to see some other things reworked though
CC hp increase, powernode hp increase, building cap to avoid the late alien structure spam (try killing 16 crags around a hive)
I'm sure i'm missing stuff but the first point is why I think a lot of people avoid aliens - you just don't feel like you get stronger unless you get an onos. Also, a lot of competitive players use the public servers to practice aiming.