Late Game Marines Too Powerful
Al_Ka_Pwn
Join Date: 2007-12-26 Member: 63264Members
Join Date: 2007-12-26 Member: 63264Members
Late game marines are far more powerful than aliens.
Aliens do locational damage and marines can shoot any part of the alien to do the same damage.
Phase gates give marines more mobility than Aliens. In NS1 aliens could teleport between hives. This is absent.
Marines have universal upgrades that they can get on one base. Meaning late game marines require 6 hits from skulks and 4 from fades.
Late game marines are more powerful than the late game aliens. Aliens require 3 bases to be subpar to marine's 2 bases.
Marines have the best static defense and the least amount of area they have to defend allowing them to hold out far longer than should be allowed.
Aliens lack a siege weapon to capitalize on any sort of momentum.
In order to rectify this require marines to get 2 bases in order to get level 2 weapons and armor, and 3 bases to get level 3 weapons, and armor and exos. Give aliens better static defense and some sort of seige weapon. Perhaps based on the spores of the lurk, like the ability to pump nerve gas into a base constantly in order to siege it, or to fill an entire alien room with gas to defend it. Also allow aliens to teleport between hives after at least the second hive.
Aliens do locational damage and marines can shoot any part of the alien to do the same damage.
Phase gates give marines more mobility than Aliens. In NS1 aliens could teleport between hives. This is absent.
Marines have universal upgrades that they can get on one base. Meaning late game marines require 6 hits from skulks and 4 from fades.
Late game marines are more powerful than the late game aliens. Aliens require 3 bases to be subpar to marine's 2 bases.
Marines have the best static defense and the least amount of area they have to defend allowing them to hold out far longer than should be allowed.
Aliens lack a siege weapon to capitalize on any sort of momentum.
In order to rectify this require marines to get 2 bases in order to get level 2 weapons and armor, and 3 bases to get level 3 weapons, and armor and exos. Give aliens better static defense and some sort of seige weapon. Perhaps based on the spores of the lurk, like the ability to pump nerve gas into a base constantly in order to siege it, or to fill an entire alien room with gas to defend it. Also allow aliens to teleport between hives after at least the second hive.
Comments
Many people agree that some more marine upgrades should require 2 tech points.
I hope it changes though, when you playing aslong as i or some of the people here you can see the flaws.
when it takes 4 shots to kill a marine as a fad, and you can easily be gunned down with the starting weapons, there's not a lot of options.
Personally I think we need to cut them some slack until release dust settles, but then they SERIOUSLY need to start looking at the design and balance of the alien side in particular. The game is great fun, else I wouldn't have been playing it almost daily for the past few months, but it could be EVEN better. (And the NS 1 veterans will agree on this)
Its the exact thing a lot of us have been pestering for over the last few years, lerk spores as ranged for a tier 2 ability.
And more recently the tech issues become more prevalent with exo's hitting the field and being part of that last base turtle.
I know what you mean codeine but I still hope that UWE will see the light on some issues now they have more time (no deadline).
I think as the game gets more polished these issues become bigger (as marines improve with FPS increases easing tracking and shooting) and perhaps UWE will look at putting back in changes that where trialed during the beta (ie projectile spores...but correct me if I am wrong but they where only in place when spores where tier 2 was it not?).
Marine tech being tied to Tech points makes sense, the full marine arsenal can make some tech points (ie operations on mineshaft) almost impossible to attack.
Yeah I don't understand how marines get more mobility AND better spawn times. Aliens in their current state need a lot of work.
Because Marines have only had a higher win rate than the Aliens in <i>one</i> build since...a very long time ago.
Aliens are a lot stronger than people give them credit for. They may not be strictly <i>fun</i> to play, but they get the job done.
Note how even with the ridiculous amount of new players, Aliens still have a higher win rate than the Marines despite Aliens having a higher learning curve- so that number will only keep going up for the Aliens as new people learn how to play them.
Aliens are a lot stronger than people give them credit for. They may not be strictly <i>fun</i> to play, but they get the job done.
Note how even with the ridiculous amount of new players, Aliens still have a higher win rate than the Marines despite Aliens having a higher learning curve- so that number will only keep going up for the Aliens as new people learn how to play them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And fixing a lot of the fundamental problems such as lack of scaling could balance the game even further.
Weird, right?
Weird, right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens get stronger as the game goes on due to the upgrades they get. Unless you think a stock Gorge is the same as a Gorge with Celerity, Carapace, Silence, and Bile Bomb for some reason.
Marines get 10-30% stronger guns and 100-200% stronger armor while Aliens get a whole mess of different abilities, 'weapons', and lesser stat boosts (like Carapace). What's the problem?
Wasn't the win rate 55% marine 45% Alien like two builds ago ? o.O
I think it was more like 63-37.
Which was the only time that the Marines had a higher win rate in FOREVER. I think the reason the Marine winrate went so high is because they broke the Skulk's bite horribly, but I'm not 100% sure.
Marines get 10-30% stronger guns and 100-200% stronger armor while Aliens get a whole mess of different abilities, 'weapons', and lesser stat boosts (like Carapace). What's the problem?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A... whole mess of different abilities? You mean like half of what they had in NS1.
Scaling would actually make those early onos rushes less effective if 5 minute onos were weaker than 15 minute ones due to scaling.
Lol @ mentioning silence. The lesser stat boost (like Carapace) becomes worthless on lower lifeforms 2 minutes into the game if Marines rush shotguns. Still getting one shot as skulks. Celerity stops working during combat.
Why are people so against alien scaling? It's mind boggling.
<!--quoteo(post=2005669:date=Nov 1 2012, 10:25 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Nov 1 2012, 10:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005669"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it was more like 63-37.
Which was the only time that the Marines had a higher win rate in FOREVER. I think the reason the Marine winrate went so high is because they broke the Skulk's bite horribly, but I'm not 100% sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because hit rate improved. Skulk bite was only very little of it.
Scaling would actually make those early onos rushes less effective if 5 minute onos were weaker than 15 minute ones due to scaling.
Lol @ mentioning silence. The lesser stat boost (like Carapace) becomes worthless on lower lifeforms 2 minutes into the game if Marines rush shotguns. Still getting one shot as skulks. Celerity stops working during combat.
Why are people so against alien scaling? It's mind boggling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would consider six abilities and at least one additional 'weapon' for each lifeform to be a whole mess of things, yes, especially when Marines only get stat boosts as opposed to additional abilities.
Silence + Celerity + Bile Bomb works well enough. I prefer Regeneration over Carapace, but for some reason Khamms almost never go for Regen. Either way, I have no idea what kind of 'scaling' you're talking about, because they're weaker at the beginning and stronger at the end. That's pretty much scaling in a nutshell.
<!--quoteo(post=2005672:date=Nov 1 2012, 06:26 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Nov 1 2012, 06:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because hit rate improved. Skulk bite was only very little of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If that were true, then why did it plummet back down immediately afterwards? His reg has improved since then.
Because the changes Matso made to the netcode caused a 1 frame desync with the hitbox which caused the hit reg to get worse in 224 and 225. Alien win rate skyrocketed again until 226 when it was fixed and it evened out.
Aliens do not do locational damage. The amount of damage that you do is based upon how accurately you are aiming at the marine at all, regardless of where it is on their body, so the lower tiers of damage are when the marine is barely even on your screen.
Silence + Celerity + Bile Bomb works well enough. I prefer Regeneration over Carapace, but for some reason Khamms almost never go for Regen. Either way, I have no idea what kind of 'scaling' you're talking about, because they're weaker at the beginning and stronger at the end. That's pretty much scaling in a nutshell.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You keep mention gorge. There are still four other lifeforms. All of which either have less than what they had in NS1 (fade/onos) or their tech is horrible (skulks' xenocide, lerks' trail spores).
Marines get "additional abilities". What the heck are shotguns, grenade launchers, jet packs and exosuits? All of which scales in damage and armor too?
Khamms never go regen because it is subpar to carapace on the lifeform that actually wins the game: Onos. Fades can't take regen as they are already paper thin lifeform with carapace.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If that were true, then why did it plummet back down immediately afterwards? His reg has improved since then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A mass influx of new players.
This. I've played so many games where someone will say "All the noobs are going marine" because its there instinct cause they know how to shoot and they have no idea how to play ALien. Meanwhile us beta testers stack Aliens else we get rolled on the other team. Obviously teams aren't that bad but most beta players realize that noobs are obviously going to like marine better and they take advantage of it.
Also tell me how a 3 3 Marine can I think 2 hit a fade with a shotgun ? So he spent 10 rez for a shottie and can demolish someone in a 1v1 who spent 50 rez on a fade.
Idk I'd just like to see some serious changes from the devs but I have faith! :D Its a work in progress as someone mentioned so no doubt things will change. I love the game but I know it can be better !
Marines get "additional abilities". What the heck are shotguns, grenade launchers, jet packs and exosuits? All of which scales in damage and armor too?
Khamms never go regen because it is subpar to carapace on the lifeform that actually wins the game: Onos. Fades can't take regen as they are already paper thin lifeform with carapace.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I mention Gorge because it's the only Lifeform that I enjoy playing.
It doesn't matter what they had in NS1 because this is NS2. Marines were a lot more fun in NS1, what with Heavy Armor (Superior to Exos), HMG's (Awesome), and grenades that didn't come from the launcher (Also awesome). Fades were stronger in NS1, but you also couldn't just have the whole team Fade up like in NS2. They're different games.
Anyway, a stock Fade without Blink isn't even in the same league as an upgraded Fade. Lerk Spores are actually very effective if you dust a group of Marines while they're distracted with something else (Because going after multiple Marines by yourself as a non-Onos is never a good idea, but like how a Marine rushing into three Fades is an equally bad idea). Onos gets fairly ridiculous with their upgrades because once an Onos gets Stomp, it can take on as many stock Marines as needed while Carapace gives it like 1300 more armor. Bile Bomb is the most effective anti-structure weapon in the game. Vortex has many useful applications.
Xenocide sucks, I'll give you that. Can't comment on Umbra because I have literally never seen it. Ever. Everever.
Edit: Forgot to mention: All of the Marine's weapons (Which are not 'abilities' because you have to buy them as opposed to just taking a bit more time to evolve them for free) have a tradeoff. Alien abilities don't. Shotgun has much less range and fire rate than the LMG, Grenade Launcher is terrible at close range, and the Flamethrower isn't that great as an anti-lifeform weapon as well as having limited range. Exos have a huge list of limitations and about three upsides.
The only thing worth taking 100% of the time as a Marine is the Jetpack.
Its so much easier to use a jetpack than to lurk lol.
The reason they hit Aliens hit a wall is because they have a TON of momentum when say first Onos pops, kills a bunch of marines pushes a base maybe you got some fades with you then what happens. Eventually your numbers get thinned maybe you lost two onos. No ones fault, eventually they just take too much damage and you go down.
Then you spawn as a Skulk with maybe 20 rez and they spawn as a Marine with 3 3 upgrade. If your team lost too many Fades/Onos you just lost the game. I don't know. I want Aliens to get some hot sexy loving <3
Skulk spawns at endgame still needing six bites to kill an upgraded Marine, and dying in about half a second of rifle fire. To upgrade to Carapace requires evolution time, and to a lifeform that can take more than being sneezed at by an upgraded rifle, even longer. Meaning that the spawn is very easily camped, with ZERO recourse on the Kharaa side. Likewise, Kharaa MUST control multiple points to have access to their abilities. It is exceedingly simple for Marines to snowball. Kharaa endgame is a fight through ALL the sustained and immediately available abilities.
Likewise, balance has been determined to be equitable for the FULLY UPGRADED version of a given lifeform. Meaning that until they are unlocked, the given lifeform is significantly underpowered (very visible in the Fade with the lack of Blink).
It'll be fixed, but as-is the side balance is oriented toward short games, and slanted in the Marines' favor for the late-game. Which is a problem, as they turtle FAR too well and reach their late game quite easily, with very little impetus to actually explore the map or hold more than 3 resource points.