<!--quoteo(post=2005632:date=Nov 2 2012, 03:13 AM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Nov 2 2012, 03:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens are a lot stronger than people give them credit for. They may not be strictly <i>fun</i> to play, but they get the job done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So a whole faction in a VIDEOGAME is not fun to play but it gets "the job done"? Good thing we don't play videogames for fun but just to get "the job done", right?
<!--quoteo(post=2006316:date=Nov 2 2012, 01:51 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Nov 2 2012, 01:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->These exact issues have been brought up several times in the beta, by players who have 300+ hours of NS2 played. So discrediting this thread because 'the game has just released' doesn't exactly make much sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This! Sadly right now it's a trend to simply go "L2P, it's a new game!" on issues that other players have been pointing out for weeks/months prior to release. The scaling of Marines vs Kharaa is one of these things and it still deserves quite some attention.
What confuses me most about this situation is that UWE seems to be ignoring ideas/solutions from NS1 that could be applied. The most obvious example: Kharaa armor scaling with numbers of hives, the more hives Kharaa have the more damage each individual Kharaa can take. This "armor bonus" could even scale above 3 hives to give Kharaa an easier time breaking up those stupid 1 CP Turtles by marines.
Another thing: Give Kharaa players more freedom with their upgrades. Number of upgrades should be limited by hives, type of upgrades should be limited by nothing. That way a 3 Hive Fade could use Carapace, Regen and Cele or Cele, Adren, Cara or whatever else he likes. Give players more freedom with their choices, give those sub-par upgrades like Regen/Adren more use and once again makes Kharaa scale better late game (Having 4 hives equals having 4 upgrade slots) and give Khamm's a reason not to simply min/max around those 2-3 upgrades everybody considers "working and useful".
Focus would go a long way in making aliens more fun and competitive later on. And I believe UWE said it was coming back, so hopefully... Also, regen, adren and shade hive in general need some looking at to be honest, as does the over-reliance and over-importance of the alien second hive.
<!--quoteo(post=2006283:date=Nov 2 2012, 12:28 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Nov 2 2012, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006283"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->aliens dont do locational damage. they do damage based on how poorly you aim. there are no "headshots" in ns2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmm even worse than I thought. I was under the impression that if the aliens could bite a marine's head it could almost outright kill them. Based on the same line of logic why not require marines to shoot at weak points on aliens between plates of armor or on the flanks in order to do full damage?
<!--quoteo(post=2006529:date=Nov 2 2012, 10:44 AM:name=Al_Ka_Pwn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Al_Ka_Pwn @ Nov 2 2012, 10:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmmm even worse than I thought. I was under the impression that if the aliens could bite a marine's head it could almost outright kill them. Based on the same line of logic why not require marines to shoot at weak points on aliens between plates of armor or on the flanks in order to do full damage?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulk damage is based on accuracy.
The more hits you land is succession, the more the damage ramps up. Once you miss a bite though it reverts to base.
You also do reduced damage if you hit a marine who is on the side of your screen, a glancing hit.
I've played many games and what I have noticed is that while Aliens can win it is far easier to win as Marines and it requires far less team work and effort. As Alien you have to be constantly thinking about placement and movement as direct confrontation is certain death. As an alien you have to wait and be stealthy and time your time attacks. A marine only need to point and click and has the advantage of range.
Similarly teamwork requires much more effort, as Marine you can teleport around the map to hotspots such as a base under attack. Furthermore the lack of reliance on infestation means its easier to hold areas and the relative strength of the sentries vs the meagre whips makes it even more so.
There are also issues with map design that could be addressed. The vents do help with Alien movement but there are too few of them and they don't often provide that much of an alternative route. Most of the maps aren't all that dark either limiting potential hiding spots and even after taking out a power node, the Alien player receives a few seconds of darkness before the whole room goes bright red.
In most games as Aliens you rarely see Lerks or Fades as they require a lot of teamwork and effort to use effectively. A marine with a cheap shotgun and 2 shot both with little drama as a result they are rarely worth it. This leaves just the usual boring Ornos grind that most players work for.
<!--quoteo(post=2006518:date=Nov 2 2012, 03:39 PM:name=Wyattx3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wyattx3 @ Nov 2 2012, 03:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006518"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe they said focus would never come back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, i remember it having to do something with the beloved "balance" and how Charlie thinks that flatout damage/defense modifiers make the game too difficult to balance in a competitive setting. Imo it's also on of the reasons UWE removed the swarm upgrade.
<!--quoteo(post=2006529:date=Nov 2 2012, 03:44 PM:name=Al_Ka_Pwn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Al_Ka_Pwn @ Nov 2 2012, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmmm even worse than I thought. I was under the impression that if the aliens could bite a marine's head it could almost outright kill them. Based on the same line of logic why not require marines to shoot at weak points on aliens between plates of armor or on the flanks in order to do full damage?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regarding the alien weak points: The Onos is supposed to have a big bone shield on it's head, reducing/negating incoming damage from the front. But UWE hasn't gotten around to implementing this yet.
Overall i would love locational damage, even more so if it has crippling effects (hitting leg slows down, hitting arms throws off aim and so on) but i doubt that's gonna happen.
<!--quoteo(post=2006542:date=Nov 2 2012, 07:51 AM:name=Bullet_Force)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullet_Force @ Nov 2 2012, 07:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In most games as Aliens you rarely see Lerks or Fades as they require a lot of teamwork and effort to use effectively. A marine with a cheap shotgun and 2 shot both with little drama as a result they are rarely worth it. This leaves just the usual boring Ornos grind that most players work for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, in games with BAD aliens you don't see any lerks or fades. In games with GOOD aliens you don't see lerks and fades either, but you are usually dead from them.
<!--quoteo(post=2006534:date=Nov 2 2012, 09:47 AM:name=Xostean)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xostean @ Nov 2 2012, 09:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006534"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulk damage is based on accuracy.
The more hits you land is succession, the more the damage ramps up. Once you miss a bite though it reverts to base.
You also do reduced damage if you hit a marine who is on the side of your screen, a glancing hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NO NO NO NO NO NO
The only mechanic to ALL attacks are the glancing hits, there are 3 cones on most attacks aliens do (skulk bite, lerk bite, fade swipe, onos gore) they do 100% damage for perfect accuracy, 66% for the next cone, and 33% for the widest cone. It's like this: | 33 | 66 | 100 | 66 | 33 |
<!--quoteo(post=2006542:date=Nov 2 2012, 09:51 AM:name=Bullet_Force)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullet_Force @ Nov 2 2012, 09:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In most games as Aliens you rarely see Lerks or Fades as they require a lot of teamwork and effort to use effectively. A marine with a cheap shotgun and 2 shot both with little drama as a result they are rarely worth it. This leaves just the usual boring Ornos grind that most players work for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Neither require good teamwork to be very effective. However teamwork does make them MOST effective.
Anyway, I agree with moving upgrades to your tech level.
And move ARCs and 2x Minigun Exos to Tech 3 as well.
Turtling should never be a workable strategy, and right now Marines can get 95% of their tech through turtling. That ARCs are Tech 1 is insanity. The marines don't deserve that level of firepower from just sitting in their base.
And give the Fade more health, seriously. Two good hits with a shotgun and he's down.
<!--quoteo(post=2006518:date=Nov 2 2012, 02:39 PM:name=Wyattx3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wyattx3 @ Nov 2 2012, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006518"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe they said focus would never come back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
how about remove the alien comm so that aliens get an extra player, make skulk and onos base speed faster, and re-add focus and change stomp to paralyze for better alien gameplay
<!--quoteo(post=2006791:date=Nov 2 2012, 05:04 PM:name=Somerandom18)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Somerandom18 @ Nov 2 2012, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006791"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ns2stats.org says marines win 80% of the time... sounds about right (even though the website doesn't really work anymore)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
According to that site I've not played at all in the last four weeks. A lot of servers don't use n2stats.
Also the increased win rate for marines is probably down to marines being easier to learn. I seriously think people should ignore win/lose rates and balance for this first month.
<!--quoteo(post=2006384:date=Nov 2 2012, 08:22 AM:name=Xostean)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xostean @ Nov 2 2012, 08:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006384"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tbh the only thing i find aliens are lacking late game is Skulk damage.
They just cant keep up with the armor upgrades.
So with your primary soldier doing little to no damage, it makes the rest of the team with specialized units suffer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
late game , skulk shouldnt be your primary attacker. late game you should be hitting with onos, fades, lerks with support from gorges and skulks.
<!--quoteo(post=2006762:date=Nov 2 2012, 11:55 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 11:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Turtling should never be a workable strategy, and right now Marines can get 95% of their tech through turtling. That ARCs are Tech 1 is insanity. The marines don't deserve that level of firepower from just sitting in their base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
turtling as you know it doesnt work in ns2. marines have to leave base and capture res and 1 hive to get full upgrades. alien teams fail to hold choke pts and keep marine res low while keeping alien res high.
low marine res = slower upgrades, less jetpacks, shotguns, etc
high alien res towers/res. more fades/onos, better area control
aliens should almost win every game if marines are truly turtling. the problem is that they arent *turtling* they are holding down 2 hive areas while taking res towers and holding more res than alien teams.
To bad there not many pro marine player, otherwise people would notice way more, that marines are too powerfull. Try 8 onos vs 8 dual wielded Exo marines (same price, both 75 res), all onos will die, except if the exo player can't aim or play... It is not easy to balance the game, but aliens definitely need some buff.
That's still turtling because there's no forced engagement.
Aliens need 3 tech nodes to max their tech.
Marines need 2 (barely).
There's 5 nodes per map.
See the issue? There's no real reason for aliens to need to secure a fourth hive, and there's no real reason for marines to really want to push for a third command... bunker... thing.
If Marines were forced to having 3 as well, you would force conflict and frankly I think it would benefit the game better as the game would hinge around tech 2 / 3 instead of marines just getting a free ride to Exoville.
<!--quoteo(post=2006942:date=Nov 2 2012, 06:40 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 06:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006942"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's still turtling because there's no forced engagement.
Aliens need 3 tech nodes to max their tech.
Marines need 2 (barely).
There's 5 nodes per map.
See the issue? There's no real reason for aliens to need to secure a fourth hive, and there's no real reason for marines to really want to push for a third command... bunker... thing.
If Marines were forced to having 3 as well, you would force conflict and frankly I think it would benefit the game better as the game would hinge around tech 2 / 3 instead of marines just getting a free ride to Exoville.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You forget that marines need more res than aliens, if marines let aliens get 7 nodes whilst they sit on 2 tech points and 3 nodes (one in each base and 1 in between) they will lose the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2006939:date=Nov 2 2012, 01:40 PM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Nov 2 2012, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006939"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To bad there not many pro marine player, otherwise people would notice way more, that marines are too powerfull. Try 8 onos vs 8 dual wielded Exo marines (same price, both 75 res), all onos will die, except if the exo player can't aim or play... It is not easy to balance the game, but aliens definitely need some buff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
8 onos will not die versus 8 exos. 8 onos will destroy them. even if they ran down a long corridor id still place money on the onos rampage.
<!--quoteo(post=2005983:date=Nov 2 2012, 01:59 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 2 2012, 01:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens are not weaker than marines in the late game, nor any other period during the game. The phenomena you are identifying is that aliens are weaker than marines in direct confrontation. This DOES NOT mean aliens are generically "weaker" than marines, it simply means that Aliens strength is NOT direct conflict.
The mechanic in NS currently is similar to zerg vs terran in starcraft. Aliens have faster movement speeds, they have access to movement paths that Marines can't easily use, and they have one hit wonder units that can put effective damage into marine strongholds unless there is significant concerted defense against them.
Functionally, this gives aliens the advantage of very strong map control to counteract the marines advantage of a more powerful positional army. In NS marines basically control the flow of the game, and the aliens respond in turn by finding back doors to constantly do damage. Marines cannot generally be prevented from a 100% effort push into an area nearby to where they are. Aliens are able to whittle down marines as they travel across the map using their map control advantage, and they are able to exploit any location that marines currently are not FAR more easily than marines can exploit alien absence from a location.
It all comes down to cost efficiency. Once marines are established in a location they are able to be very cost efficient. But moving across the map, and establishing a new position, is much more expensive for marines than it is for aliens generally speaking. If you can cause marines to lose value in their army while they are moving, if you can attack marines where their army is not, and if you can use those attacks to force the marine force to move when it doesn't want to move, then your alien team will win. Marines cannot be cost efficient when they have to be in places where they do not have a strong defense set up. Marines can only be cost efficient when they are forcing aliens to respond to something they are doing, and because aliens have map control by default, it's usually the case that the aliens get to control where the front is unless they do something wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the most lucid post in this entire thread, and something that I completely agree with. I've been through countless instances (during Beta) where the Aliens rush into a base and completely disable it in seconds by hitting the power. You can see a Marine push coming long before it even gets into the Hive because they usually need to setup a forward base, and wait for the Exos to plod along....but an Alien rush is sudden and violent, and it's all over in seconds.
Every Alien lifeform can move very quickly, especially with celerity. This allows an Alien strike force to remain together at all times and cover great distances across the map through the 'back doors' that Swiftspear mentioned. The key is for the Aliens to keep tabs on where the Marines are and how many are Exos, since Exos cannot beacon or PG and are extremely vulnerable when unsupported. Send a fade or lerk into the base you want to attack and find where the obs/pg is. Wait for the big push to start (marines controlling the flow of the game), then find a 'back door' to the most vulnerable/juicy base and crush it.
Example on ns_mineshaft: Marines push from Ore Deposit up into Sorting, Aliens rush from Cavern into Repair, then towards Command. Responding directly head-on to the Marine push with ALL of the Aliens is a mistake because of the Marine firepower advantage. Similarly, Marines are limited in their response options when in transit - they can beacon, but it costs res, it relies on a fragile structure tucked away somewhere in the base, and it relies on the marine comm's decision making skills and quick reflexes. It also leaves Exos vulnerable. In this scenario, Marines can lose two Tech Points in very short order since Repair isn't all that far away when every Alien has celerity, plus gorgies can heal the team on the move.
Example on ns_veil: I was on Aliens and we rushed from West Skylights into the Command. The comm beaconed, and we all ran away...down to double with the entire Alien strike force within a minute...and smashed it. Sure, we got some opposition from marines phasing into double, but they appeared one by one and died almost immediately upon exiting the PG. Then we ran down to Cargo for a quick heal, and up into Pipeline while the Marines were responding by 'trying to take back double', and destroyed that tech point. We effectively forced the Marines to go somewhere they did not want to go (Command -> Double). We were basically 'running ahead' of the Marines as they chased after the devastation we had left in our wake.
<!--quoteo(post=2006942:date=Nov 2 2012, 01:40 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006942"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's still turtling because there's no forced engagement.
Aliens need 3 tech nodes to max their tech.
Marines need 2 (barely).
There's 5 nodes per map.
See the issue? There's no real reason for aliens to need to secure a fourth hive, and there's no real reason for marines to really want to push for a third command... bunker... thing.
If Marines were forced to having 3 as well, you would force conflict and frankly I think it would benefit the game better as the game would hinge around tech 2 / 3 instead of marines just getting a free ride to Exoville.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
theres your problem, the forced conflict should be aliens wanting their final abilities. aliens shouldnt be letting marines get 2 hives in the first place! i would think preventing exo/jp rushes to be enough incentive to take out a marine 2nd com chair/base.
<!--quoteo(post=2006949:date=Nov 2 2012, 06:45 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 2 2012, 06:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You forget that marines need more res than aliens, if marines let aliens get 7 nodes whilst they sit on 2 tech points and 3 nodes (one in each base and 1 in between) they will lose the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But res points are not tech points. If ideally the marines need 5 res points, and aliens need 3, and there's 8 on the map... one side needs something the other doesn't need, the other needs something the first doesn't need. It's just kind of stupid design if you ask me.
We already went full-retard by making both sides use commanders and personal resources, so why not just make them chase after the same goals, tech points and res nodes?
Yeah it would make more sense to rebalance the entire game, so that optimal for both teams are 3, that would make some intense fighting everytime one of the teams takes the third.
<!--quoteo(post=2006962:date=Nov 2 2012, 06:51 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Nov 2 2012, 06:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006962"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->theres your problem, the forced conflict should be aliens wanting their final abilities. aliens shouldnt be letting marines get 2 hives in the first place! i would think preventing exo/jp rushes to be enough incentive to take out a marine 2nd com chair/base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So aliens actually need 4 hives now? And where does that fit into the 'marines need more res' picture? Aliens can only secure hives so fast, and marines can move around the map so much faster than the aliens, it's no wonder most games end with marine victories. Aliens get their final abilities at 3 hives (and what lackluster abilities they are), so I don't know why you think Hive 4 factors into this.
I agree that marines upgrades should require more command chairs as a disclaimer to the following statement:
The main reason I see base sieges not working well at the moment is a lack of target prioritization on the part of the assaulting aliens and a lack of good lerks. Umbra coated Onos are your siege weapons, but without umbra Onos are like a one minigun exo. Good at hassling things, bad at assaulting things.
As aliens your assault force with an 8-man team should be something like 3-4 Onos, two gorges, two lerks. A lerk zooms through dropping spores to lower visibility and do DoT plus draws fire away from the entry door, second lerk fires off umbra near the marines power, Onos charge in with gorge support and smash marines power, then when they've cleared a few marines and have the power down both lerks should grab the ceiling or zoom around crapping umbra everywhere. If you do this, you will probably win unless you are seriously outmatched. (Unlikely, since you have a full assault force and have beat them back to one CC by that point.)
The Umbra reduces damage to alien units inside the umbra. With weapons 3, you will require it for effective base taking. A decent alien commander putting down crags outside the marines base helps too, but it really slows things down sometimes too if the aliens are timid or have poor teamwork.
<!--quoteo(post=2006962:date=Nov 2 2012, 02:51 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Nov 2 2012, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006962"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->theres your problem, the forced conflict should be aliens wanting their final abilities. aliens shouldnt be letting marines get 2 hives in the first place! i would think preventing exo/jp rushes to be enough incentive to take out a marine 2nd com chair/base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So say you're on docking. By your logic not only should the alien team need to keep three hives to stay ahead the aliens also need to keep cafeteria from the marines? The aliens need to control 80% of the map for the game to be evenly balanced and for the aliens to have a fighting shot?
You're right on one part, however. The forced conflict should be for the highest tech. And the highest tech for marines should be with 3 CCs, just like aliens. Then preferably every map should have 5 tech points as well.
Comments
So a whole faction in a VIDEOGAME is not fun to play but it gets "the job done"? Good thing we don't play videogames for fun but just to get "the job done", right?
<!--quoteo(post=2006316:date=Nov 2 2012, 01:51 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Nov 2 2012, 01:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->These exact issues have been brought up several times in the beta, by players who have 300+ hours of NS2 played. So discrediting this thread because 'the game has just released' doesn't exactly make much sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This!
Sadly right now it's a trend to simply go "L2P, it's a new game!" on issues that other players have been pointing out for weeks/months prior to release.
The scaling of Marines vs Kharaa is one of these things and it still deserves quite some attention.
What confuses me most about this situation is that UWE seems to be ignoring ideas/solutions from NS1 that could be applied.
The most obvious example: Kharaa armor scaling with numbers of hives, the more hives Kharaa have the more damage each individual Kharaa can take. This "armor bonus" could even scale above 3 hives to give Kharaa an easier time breaking up those stupid 1 CP Turtles by marines.
Another thing: Give Kharaa players more freedom with their upgrades. Number of upgrades should be limited by hives, type of upgrades should be limited by nothing. That way a 3 Hive Fade could use Carapace, Regen and Cele or Cele, Adren, Cara or whatever else he likes. Give players more freedom with their choices, give those sub-par upgrades like Regen/Adren more use and once again makes Kharaa scale better late game (Having 4 hives equals having 4 upgrade slots) and give Khamm's a reason not to simply min/max around those 2-3 upgrades everybody considers "working and useful".
Also, regen, adren and shade hive in general need some looking at to be honest, as does the over-reliance and over-importance of the alien second hive.
Hmmm even worse than I thought. I was under the impression that if the aliens could bite a marine's head it could almost outright kill them. Based on the same line of logic why not require marines to shoot at weak points on aliens between plates of armor or on the flanks in order to do full damage?
Skulk damage is based on accuracy.
The more hits you land is succession, the more the damage ramps up. Once you miss a bite though it reverts to base.
You also do reduced damage if you hit a marine who is on the side of your screen, a glancing hit.
Similarly teamwork requires much more effort, as Marine you can teleport around the map to hotspots such as a base under attack. Furthermore the lack of reliance on infestation means its easier to hold areas and the relative strength of the sentries vs the meagre whips makes it even more so.
There are also issues with map design that could be addressed. The vents do help with Alien movement but there are too few of them and they don't often provide that much of an alternative route. Most of the maps aren't all that dark either limiting potential hiding spots and even after taking out a power node, the Alien player receives a few seconds of darkness before the whole room goes bright red.
In most games as Aliens you rarely see Lerks or Fades as they require a lot of teamwork and effort to use effectively. A marine with a cheap shotgun and 2 shot both with little drama as a result they are rarely worth it. This leaves just the usual boring Ornos grind that most players work for.
Agreed, i remember it having to do something with the beloved "balance" and how Charlie thinks that flatout damage/defense modifiers make the game too difficult to balance in a competitive setting. Imo it's also on of the reasons UWE removed the swarm upgrade.
<!--quoteo(post=2006529:date=Nov 2 2012, 03:44 PM:name=Al_Ka_Pwn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Al_Ka_Pwn @ Nov 2 2012, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmmm even worse than I thought. I was under the impression that if the aliens could bite a marine's head it could almost outright kill them. Based on the same line of logic why not require marines to shoot at weak points on aliens between plates of armor or on the flanks in order to do full damage?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regarding the alien weak points: The Onos is supposed to have a big bone shield on it's head, reducing/negating incoming damage from the front. But UWE hasn't gotten around to implementing this yet.
Overall i would love locational damage, even more so if it has crippling effects (hitting leg slows down, hitting arms throws off aim and so on) but i doubt that's gonna happen.
No, in games with BAD aliens you don't see any lerks or fades. In games with GOOD aliens you don't see lerks and fades either, but you are usually dead from them.
The more hits you land is succession, the more the damage ramps up. Once you miss a bite though it reverts to base.
You also do reduced damage if you hit a marine who is on the side of your screen, a glancing hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NO NO NO NO NO NO
The only mechanic to ALL attacks are the glancing hits, there are 3 cones on most attacks aliens do (skulk bite, lerk bite, fade swipe, onos gore) they do 100% damage for perfect accuracy, 66% for the next cone, and 33% for the widest cone. It's like this: | 33 | 66 | 100 | 66 | 33 |
There is no 'damage ramp up'
Neither require good teamwork to be very effective. However teamwork does make them MOST effective.
A fade to kill welders with lerk support gas or umbra. Bile bomb city.
Last game I commanded we were kicking butt, one skulk took out or main base power and aliens won. :)
And move ARCs and 2x Minigun Exos to Tech 3 as well.
Turtling should never be a workable strategy, and right now Marines can get 95% of their tech through turtling. That ARCs are Tech 1 is insanity. The marines don't deserve that level of firepower from just sitting in their base.
And give the Fade more health, seriously. Two good hits with a shotgun and he's down.
wow
According to that site I've not played at all in the last four weeks. A lot of servers don't use n2stats.
Also the increased win rate for marines is probably down to marines being easier to learn. I seriously think people should ignore win/lose rates and balance for this first month.
They just cant keep up with the armor upgrades.
So with your primary soldier doing little to no damage, it makes the rest of the team with specialized units suffer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
late game , skulk shouldnt be your primary attacker. late game you should be hitting with onos, fades, lerks with support from gorges and skulks.
turtling as you know it doesnt work in ns2. marines have to leave base and capture res and 1 hive to get full upgrades. alien teams fail to hold choke pts and keep marine res low while keeping alien res high.
low marine res = slower upgrades, less jetpacks, shotguns, etc
high alien res towers/res. more fades/onos, better area control
aliens should almost win every game if marines are truly turtling. the problem is that they arent *turtling* they are holding down 2 hive areas while taking res towers and holding more res than alien teams.
Try 8 onos vs 8 dual wielded Exo marines (same price, both 75 res), all onos will die, except if the exo player can't aim or play...
It is not easy to balance the game, but aliens definitely need some buff.
Aliens need 3 tech nodes to max their tech.
Marines need 2 (barely).
There's 5 nodes per map.
See the issue? There's no real reason for aliens to need to secure a fourth hive, and there's no real reason for marines to really want to push for a third command... bunker... thing.
If Marines were forced to having 3 as well, you would force conflict and frankly I think it would benefit the game better as the game would hinge around tech 2 / 3 instead of marines just getting a free ride to Exoville.
Aliens need 3 tech nodes to max their tech.
Marines need 2 (barely).
There's 5 nodes per map.
See the issue? There's no real reason for aliens to need to secure a fourth hive, and there's no real reason for marines to really want to push for a third command... bunker... thing.
If Marines were forced to having 3 as well, you would force conflict and frankly I think it would benefit the game better as the game would hinge around tech 2 / 3 instead of marines just getting a free ride to Exoville.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You forget that marines need more res than aliens, if marines let aliens get 7 nodes whilst they sit on 2 tech points and 3 nodes (one in each base and 1 in between) they will lose the game.
Try 8 onos vs 8 dual wielded Exo marines (same price, both 75 res), all onos will die, except if the exo player can't aim or play...
It is not easy to balance the game, but aliens definitely need some buff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
8 onos will not die versus 8 exos. 8 onos will destroy them. even if they ran down a long corridor id still place money on the onos rampage.
The mechanic in NS currently is similar to zerg vs terran in starcraft. Aliens have faster movement speeds, they have access to movement paths that Marines can't easily use, and they have one hit wonder units that can put effective damage into marine strongholds unless there is significant concerted defense against them.
Functionally, this gives aliens the advantage of very strong map control to counteract the marines advantage of a more powerful positional army. In NS marines basically control the flow of the game, and the aliens respond in turn by finding back doors to constantly do damage. Marines cannot generally be prevented from a 100% effort push into an area nearby to where they are. Aliens are able to whittle down marines as they travel across the map using their map control advantage, and they are able to exploit any location that marines currently are not FAR more easily than marines can exploit alien absence from a location.
It all comes down to cost efficiency. Once marines are established in a location they are able to be very cost efficient. But moving across the map, and establishing a new position, is much more expensive for marines than it is for aliens generally speaking. If you can cause marines to lose value in their army while they are moving, if you can attack marines where their army is not, and if you can use those attacks to force the marine force to move when it doesn't want to move, then your alien team will win. Marines cannot be cost efficient when they have to be in places where they do not have a strong defense set up. Marines can only be cost efficient when they are forcing aliens to respond to something they are doing, and because aliens have map control by default, it's usually the case that the aliens get to control where the front is unless they do something wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the most lucid post in this entire thread, and something that I completely agree with. I've been through countless instances (during Beta) where the Aliens rush into a base and completely disable it in seconds by hitting the power. You can see a Marine push coming long before it even gets into the Hive because they usually need to setup a forward base, and wait for the Exos to plod along....but an Alien rush is sudden and violent, and it's all over in seconds.
Every Alien lifeform can move very quickly, especially with celerity. This allows an Alien strike force to remain together at all times and cover great distances across the map through the 'back doors' that Swiftspear mentioned. The key is for the Aliens to keep tabs on where the Marines are and how many are Exos, since Exos cannot beacon or PG and are extremely vulnerable when unsupported. Send a fade or lerk into the base you want to attack and find where the obs/pg is. Wait for the big push to start (marines controlling the flow of the game), then find a 'back door' to the most vulnerable/juicy base and crush it.
Example on ns_mineshaft:
Marines push from Ore Deposit up into Sorting, Aliens rush from Cavern into Repair, then towards Command. Responding directly head-on to the Marine push with ALL of the Aliens is a mistake because of the Marine firepower advantage. Similarly, Marines are limited in their response options when in transit - they can beacon, but it costs res, it relies on a fragile structure tucked away somewhere in the base, and it relies on the marine comm's decision making skills and quick reflexes. It also leaves Exos vulnerable. In this scenario, Marines can lose two Tech Points in very short order since Repair isn't all that far away when every Alien has celerity, plus gorgies can heal the team on the move.
Example on ns_veil:
I was on Aliens and we rushed from West Skylights into the Command. The comm beaconed, and we all ran away...down to double with the entire Alien strike force within a minute...and smashed it. Sure, we got some opposition from marines phasing into double, but they appeared one by one and died almost immediately upon exiting the PG. Then we ran down to Cargo for a quick heal, and up into Pipeline while the Marines were responding by 'trying to take back double', and destroyed that tech point. We effectively forced the Marines to go somewhere they did not want to go (Command -> Double). We were basically 'running ahead' of the Marines as they chased after the devastation we had left in our wake.
Aliens need 3 tech nodes to max their tech.
Marines need 2 (barely).
There's 5 nodes per map.
See the issue? There's no real reason for aliens to need to secure a fourth hive, and there's no real reason for marines to really want to push for a third command... bunker... thing.
If Marines were forced to having 3 as well, you would force conflict and frankly I think it would benefit the game better as the game would hinge around tech 2 / 3 instead of marines just getting a free ride to Exoville.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
theres your problem, the forced conflict should be aliens wanting their final abilities. aliens shouldnt be letting marines get 2 hives in the first place! i would think preventing exo/jp rushes to be enough incentive to take out a marine 2nd com chair/base.
But res points are not tech points. If ideally the marines need 5 res points, and aliens need 3, and there's 8 on the map... one side needs something the other doesn't need, the other needs something the first doesn't need. It's just kind of stupid design if you ask me.
We already went full-retard by making both sides use commanders and personal resources, so why not just make them chase after the same goals, tech points and res nodes?
So aliens actually need 4 hives now? And where does that fit into the 'marines need more res' picture? Aliens can only secure hives so fast, and marines can move around the map so much faster than the aliens, it's no wonder most games end with marine victories. Aliens get their final abilities at 3 hives (and what lackluster abilities they are), so I don't know why you think Hive 4 factors into this.
The main reason I see base sieges not working well at the moment is a lack of target prioritization on the part of the assaulting aliens and a lack of good lerks. Umbra coated Onos are your siege weapons, but without umbra Onos are like a one minigun exo. Good at hassling things, bad at assaulting things.
As aliens your assault force with an 8-man team should be something like 3-4 Onos, two gorges, two lerks. A lerk zooms through dropping spores to lower visibility and do DoT plus draws fire away from the entry door, second lerk fires off umbra near the marines power, Onos charge in with gorge support and smash marines power, then when they've cleared a few marines and have the power down both lerks should grab the ceiling or zoom around crapping umbra everywhere. If you do this, you will probably win unless you are seriously outmatched. (Unlikely, since you have a full assault force and have beat them back to one CC by that point.)
The Umbra reduces damage to alien units inside the umbra. With weapons 3, you will require it for effective base taking. A decent alien commander putting down crags outside the marines base helps too, but it really slows things down sometimes too if the aliens are timid or have poor teamwork.
So say you're on docking. By your logic not only should the alien team need to keep three hives to stay ahead the aliens also need to keep cafeteria from the marines? The aliens need to control 80% of the map for the game to be evenly balanced and for the aliens to have a fighting shot?
You're right on one part, however. The forced conflict should be for the highest tech. And the highest tech for marines should be with 3 CCs, just like aliens. Then preferably every map should have 5 tech points as well.
STFU already and go play, whiners.
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