<!--quoteo(post=2006992:date=Nov 2 2012, 07:09 PM:name=Skyforger2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skyforger2 @ Nov 2 2012, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006992"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am posting this to all topis that complain about balance. STFU already and go play, whiners.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/images/news/PostLaunch1/WinLoss.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/images/news/P...ch1/WinLoss.jpg</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll bet the majority of those alien victories are in the first 5 minutes.
<!--quoteo(post=2006974:date=Nov 2 2012, 06:57 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 06:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006974"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens get their final abilities at 3 hives (and what lackluster abilities they are), so I don't know why you think Hive 4 factors into this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed, they are rather pathetic... That sorta means Aliens don't need them right... Oh that means Aliens only <b>need</b> two hives and a third is just a benefit.
<!--quoteo(post=2006992:date=Nov 2 2012, 03:09 PM:name=Skyforger2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skyforger2 @ Nov 2 2012, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006992"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am posting this to all topis that complain about balance. STFU already and go play, whiners.
It has been discussed to death why that statistic is irrelevant, but i'll reiterate.
What if 50% of alien victories are 2 minute skulk rushes? What if every longer game for aliens is brutally not fun yet 'balanced' in the sense that the aliens oftentimes will eek out a victory after a prolonged match? Theres not enough data present in "aliens win this much and marines win this much" to say whether or not a game is balanced or more importantly, <b>fun</b>.
<!--quoteo(post=2006974:date=Nov 2 2012, 01:57 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 01:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006974"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So aliens actually need 4 hives now? And where does that fit into the 'marines need more res' picture? Aliens can only secure hives so fast, and marines can move around the map so much faster than the aliens, it's no wonder most games end with marine victories. Aliens get their final abilities at 3 hives (and what lackluster abilities they are), so I don't know why you think Hive 4 factors into this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, aliens need to control the majority of the map just like marines. the problem is aliens dont do this. they allow marines to sit on 2 chairs and many res towers.
- aliens can secure a 2nd hive 3 minutes into the game. thats pretty damn fast to me. especially if coming from ns1 and you first had to go gorge and THEN get the res to drop the hive and THEN survive the trip to the hive area
<!--quoteo(post=2006008:date=Nov 2 2012, 03:36 AM:name=TimmahIsASaint)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimmahIsASaint @ Nov 2 2012, 03:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006008"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But Aliens are not faster than Marines. That is just straight not true. Phase gates, beacons, uncontrollable spawn locations for Aliens, marine sprint, AND Marines spawn times are much better and they don't have to evolve when they spawn. Trust me when I say Marines are faster, they can react better and can get around the map much faster. They can siege harder with instant reinforcements and they can hold sieges better because obviously turtling with range advantage is easier.
I am a high diamond zerg if that means anything and while I'd like to say playing Alien com and on their team feels like zerg, it doesn't. Exos and 3 3 Marine upgrades come far before Onos because Aliens are busy spending a ton of rez to expand earlier, they can't recycle, and marines generally have more map control due to PGs. Just my two cents. :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My 2ct
I'll give you the point about uncontrollable spawn locations - makes no sense that I spawn in Cave when I know that marines are chilling in Ore Deposit waiting to push into Sorting. There should be a mechanism where you can select either a hive or shift to spawn into when the timer runs down (and switch between them right up until the timer runs out). I would also like a recycle option for the alien comm.
However, PGs & beacons aren't quite as OP as you make them out to be. Remember Swiftspear's point - if you force marines to go where they don't want to go (back to defend base), and you do it repeatedly while whittling them down, Aliens will win. Anyway, PGs cycle between locations, rely on power, and only one marine goes through at a time. PGs may enable instantaneous transport, but they are useless if the bulk of the marines (non-Exos) are in transit from their forward base/Tech Point to the hive. Unless the marines run back to the PG and phase to the Tech Point under attack (after cycling through the other PGs) one by one, the only other option is to bacon.
Bacon, aside from being tasty, is also dangerous because you could end up dumping an insufficient number of marines right into a cauldron of spores, fades and onoses. Why insufficient? Because bacon only works on living marines. If you don't have enough marines alive at the time of bacon, all of your footsoldier/JP marines die and you still lose that Tech Point anyway. Even if the beaconed marines are enough to defend the base, smart Aliens just run away from a beacon and the forward Exos usually get smashed because their welders were beaconed away. Now you have marines divided between the initial push that started it all, and welding/building up stuff in the Tech Point that just got hit, and you spent res on that beacon. The Marine push has been derailed, even if only temporarily, and it takes a team effort to get the momentum going again.
And there is another point to consider, observatories are very fragile and I've seen many Beta games where the beacon is ringing, but stops halfway as the obs is quickly destroyed. A quick thinking comm, therefore, has to react very quickly to a coordinated rush - you literally have 2 - 3 seconds to click your obs and call in a beacon - if your attention is diverted elsewhere, you will lose that obs within 5 - 6 seconds.
Also, not to sound rude, but don't bring SC2 rankings into this game. Aliens aren't exactly zerg...for example, the number of players on each team are relatively equal. Some parts are similar to SC2 (such as the ability for zerg to quickly exploit back doors, though in SC2 you do it with Nydus Worms or mass speed-Overlord drops, or just plain speedlings/creep), but I don't think you should look at Aliens being similar to Zerg...because they are not.
Also regarding the comment about RT...every marine RT requires a marine or MAC to build it - that's one more marine that isn't shooting an alien in the face. Alien RTs build themselves. Lone skulks have an easier time of killing RTs than lone marines do - they are much more mobile, they're much smaller and can hide behind the RT and continue to bite it, using the 'squirrel' technique to keep the RT between the skulk and the marine looking to shoot him off of it. Marines either shoot or axe the RT - shooting uses up ammo and occupies the primary weapon, leaving a marine vulnerable to attack between reloads. Axing introduces a delay between hitting the RT and switching back to the gun.
<!--quoteo(post=2006942:date=Nov 2 2012, 02:40 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 02:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006942"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's still turtling because there's no forced engagement.
Aliens need 3 tech nodes to max their tech.
Marines need 2 (barely).
There's 5 nodes per map.
See the issue? There's no real reason for aliens to need to secure a fourth hive, and there's no real reason for marines to really want to push for a third command... bunker... thing.
If Marines were forced to having 3 as well, you would force conflict and frankly I think it would benefit the game better as the game would hinge around tech 2 / 3 instead of marines just getting a free ride to Exoville.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, there is that whole winning the game thing. But I guess for some people sim-base is fun.
<!--quoteo(post=2006995:date=Nov 2 2012, 03:12 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 03:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll bet the majority of those alien victories are in the first 5 minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Doubtful, because aliens are not weaker than marines in the late game, nor the mid game. They're only positionally weaker than marines, which doesn't equate to objectively weaker.
For Skulk scaling, Xenocide needs to be modified so it's more viable. Currently it has too many downsides and doesn't provide enough guaranteed damage over running in and landing a few bites.
Also, one of the best ways to counter the Exos is force engagements around the entire map, exploiting their lack of mobility. Unfortunately this isn't feasible on several maps due to the ability to constrict movement and avenues of attack. So fundamentally there are other factors at work.
Locking A3 and W2 behind a techpoint would also be nice.
<!--quoteo(post=2007059:date=Nov 2 2012, 02:50 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007059"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And here I thought 60% of the map was "the majority".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2007069:date=Nov 2 2012, 07:56 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 2 2012, 07:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007069"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doubtful, because aliens are not weaker than marines in the late game, nor the mid game. They're only positionally weaker than marines, which doesn't equate to objectively weaker.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alien position of strength: Directly next to a marine
Marine position of strength: Everywhere else.
I think you'll find that marines position of strength is rather large compared to aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=2007106:date=Nov 2 2012, 04:22 PM:name=Al_Ka_Pwn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Al_Ka_Pwn @ Nov 2 2012, 04:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007106"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien position of strength: Directly next to a marine
Marine position of strength: Everywhere else.
I think you'll find that marines position of strength is rather large compared to aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> For marines to respond to an alien attack is expensive. Marines take a long time to get to a res node, marines must be bunched up to counter lifeforms like fades and lerks, marines are very strong if near a marine base, close to a phase gate, but the further they get from a base of operations they either have to invest more into res into the push outwards, or they have to hope aliens don't exploit their natural weakness of being away from a base.
For aliens, they don't have much of a strength advantage near their own base. They are strong everywhere on the map. The only thing that really threatens them is a concentrated marine attack. 1 marine cannot defend a res node from a fade. 2 marines also cannot. On average, by the time a marine can respond to 1 res node going down from spawn, the alien, can already have moved to, and destroyed another res node. The marines are in the difficult position of not really being able to fully respond to the alien's ability to do damage on obscure places in the map. On pubs marines heavily rely on the aliens ignoring their positions on the map until it's too late. It is MUCH MUCH easier for aliens to respond to 2 marines moving around the map distroying nodes than it is for the marines to respond to 2 skulks moving around the map and destroying nodes. 1 fade destroying nodes, or supporting node killing skulks is so difficult to deal with it's almost unfair.
Any time a marine has to move from one room to another they are at risk of losing invested position, and invested res. This is almost never the case for aliens. As alien the whole map usually feels safe, with little pockets of danger, as marines the opposite is true. This is an INCREDIBLY powerful advantage for aliens. And they are VERY capable of using that advantage to SERIOUSLY damage the marine economy, and the marine ability to keep neck to neck in upgrades in tech. What aliens are not able to do is wait until marines set up right beside their hive before beginning to combat the marine push.
Punishing marines means killing them before they get to the places they want to secure, and killing anything they leave undefended. Aliens largely do not have to worry about leaving things undefended if they are playing correctly.
Swiftspear is obviously talking about map control and forcing engagements.
If Marines can force the Aliens to react to their pushes, they tend to win due to their ability to scale much more efficiently with larger numbers. If Aliens though force Marines to react to them spreading around the map, the Marines can't keep up and spread themselves too thin meaning Aliens will win.
So then the question is whether people are playing their roles correctly and do people realize how to apply global map pressure? Likely no.
I recall fondly many a times in NS1 as a comm I won a siege for a Hive but lost all my nodes on the rest of the map. We lost shortly after.
How about we talk about one of the most fundamental aspects of balance: Times To Kill.
It's like this game was balanced for tier 1 aliens with carapace vs tier 1 marines. And since the aliens get absolutely NOTHING to help protect them beyond T1 carapace, with W2 and W3, marine firepower becomes totally unmanageable in the mid and endgame.
The TTK with a skulk vs. a normal marine is about even with a marine vs. a normal skulk.
Once you get to the midgame, with A2 or even A3, the TTK for a skulk against a marine becomes something in the realm of 5-10 seconds depending on how good he is at leaping around. On the other hand, even with carapace, the TTK against skulks with W2 and W3 becomes so short it's measured in decimal places. I've been killed in what I imagine are just 4-5 round bursts. Just *BLUT* dead.
The issue gets worse when you introduce shotguns, because even against Fades, the firepower is so completely imbalanced that aliens cannot compete. It takes just two or three good shotgun blasts to kill a fully upgraded Fade, and it takes, still, 5-10 seconds for a Fade to kill a marine who's aware of him. One shot with the shotgun almost anywhere will kill a Skulk.
Honestly the gameplay has gotten so bad that when I start getting <b>literally</b> instagibbed by the marines, I just quit. It's not fun. It's not balanced. It's terrible.
<!--quoteo(post=2007147:date=Nov 2 2012, 09:02 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 09:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about we talk about one of the most fundamental aspects of balance: Times To Kill.
It's like this game was balanced for tier 1 aliens with carapace vs tier 1 marines. And since the aliens get absolutely NOTHING to help protect them beyond T1 carapace, with W2 and W3, marine firepower becomes totally unmanageable in the mid and endgame.
The TTK with a skulk vs. a normal marine is about even with a marine vs. a normal skulk.
Once you get to the midgame, with A2 or even A3, the TTK for a skulk against a marine becomes something in the realm of 5-10 seconds depending on how good he is at leaping around. On the other hand, even with carapace, the TTK against skulks with W2 and W3 becomes so short it's measured in decimal places. I've been killed in what I imagine are just 4-5 round bursts. Just *BLUT* dead.
The issue gets worse when you introduce shotguns, because even against Fades, the firepower is so completely imbalanced that aliens cannot compete. It takes just two or three good shotgun blasts to kill a fully upgraded Fade, and it takes, still, 5-10 seconds for a Fade to kill a marine who's aware of him. One shot with the shotgun almost anywhere will kill a Skulk.
Honestly the gameplay has gotten so bad that when I start getting <b>literally</b> instagibbed by the marines, I just quit. It's not fun. It's not balanced. It's terrible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lolz...Dont get hit. I am sorry but even with super nerf fade I am still able to survive a considerably long time vs groups of marines with shotguns. Its called hit and run...
<!--quoteo(post=2007166:date=Nov 2 2012, 09:13 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 2 2012, 09:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007166"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lolz...Dont get hit. I am sorry but even with super nerf fade I am still able to survive a considerably long time vs groups of marines with shotguns. Its called hit and run...
Your complaining is seriously over dramatic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I can lie about what I do to for argument, but it serves no purpose. Not only do I not believe you, but you didn't even try to substatiate your argument with things like 'what upgrade level were the marines at'.
A Fade has to hit an A3 marine something like 5 times to kill him. SOLID hits, none of this 'glancing blow' ner######e that they dumped on the Aliens. If the marine is equally as skilled as you (which is how all balance must be considered), he will be able to hit you.
If you don't kill the marine and 'run', then the marine gobbles a medkit and goes on his way. Or hangs out next to an armory for 4 seconds.
So yeah, I'm calling you out on your bull######. Let's see your 'hit and run Fade' thats' not getting hit with this suspiciously bogus hit detection, against groups of marines with shotguns. $10 says you won't do it.
<!--quoteo(post=2007242:date=Nov 2 2012, 02:00 PM:name=Vec)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vec @ Nov 2 2012, 02:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A statistic I would like to see is the win/loss percentage based on server population. It seems the larger the server the more powerful marines are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is true. The only way to prevent that would be to scale egg production and inversely scale Marine build time. But that would just be frustrating for the Marines.
Basically, if the aliens don't ride the wave to victory before marines finish teching up, it becomes almost impossible for them to win, not unless they manage to get enough Onii and a few lucky breaks. Even then, it's not assured. If an alien team is coordinated enough to get an Onos push to break up the marine base, we have to assume the marines are coordinated enough to be able to mitigate the damage done or strike an equally crippling blow against the aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=2007147:date=Nov 2 2012, 02:02 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about we talk about one of the most fundamental aspects of balance: Times To Kill.
It's like this game was balanced for tier 1 aliens with carapace vs tier 1 marines. And since the aliens get absolutely NOTHING to help protect them beyond T1 carapace, with W2 and W3, marine firepower becomes totally unmanageable in the mid and endgame.
The TTK with a skulk vs. a normal marine is about even with a marine vs. a normal skulk.
Once you get to the midgame, with A2 or even A3, the TTK for a skulk against a marine becomes something in the realm of 5-10 seconds depending on how good he is at leaping around. On the other hand, even with carapace, the TTK against skulks with W2 and W3 becomes so short it's measured in decimal places. I've been killed in what I imagine are just 4-5 round bursts. Just *BLUT* dead.
The issue gets worse when you introduce shotguns, because even against Fades, the firepower is so completely imbalanced that aliens cannot compete. It takes just two or three good shotgun blasts to kill a fully upgraded Fade, and it takes, still, 5-10 seconds for a Fade to kill a marine who's aware of him. One shot with the shotgun almost anywhere will kill a Skulk.
Honestly the gameplay has gotten so bad that when I start getting <b>literally</b> instagibbed by the marines, I just quit. It's not fun. It's not balanced. It's terrible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens upgrades are worthless. Cool you got celerity ? That does nothing for you in combat, just means you can run to your death faster. Cool you got carapace ? I believe thats an extra 5 bullets from a rifle. Oh also you will still get one shot by a shotgun.
"For marines to respond to an alien attack is expensive. Marines take a long time to get to a res node, marines must be bunched up to counter lifeforms like fades and lerks, marines are very strong if near a marine base, close to a phase gate, but the further they get from a base of operations they either have to invest more into res into the push outwards, or they have to hope aliens don't exploit their natural weakness of being away from a base."
Uhh no ? What are you talking about ? You spawn in 5 seconds, you can phase across the map, you can beacon to base if its in trouble, and you can sprint at around skulk pre celerity speed. Also a marine with 3 3 and a shotgun (10 rez) can kill a fade. Yes you can snipe 1 rez node, but guess what can easily recycle it if they aren't derping. To counter a lerk you have one guy with a shotgun who can kill him in one or two hits... Lerks are not an issue to deal with for marines at any stage of the game. Fades, yes it probably requires 2 to deal with him. But guess what thats 50 rez you just spent to be at equal strength with 2 marines who spent nothing. Oh and if one of those persons bought a shotgun then no 2 marines will destroy a fade. Their natural weakness of being away from base ? You mean the base they can instantly teleport to through a PG or do you mean the base that the whole team can instantly be at with the click of a buttton?
@Temphage I think that power graph is real generous to Aliens.
I don't understand, light machine guns have been stated to have been designed to be useful throughout the entire game, and they are, they are incredibly effective. Why then aren't skulks designed to be useful the entire game.
I've played 50 games so far, and the only wins are marine commander being new, or getting their power down before they can get the rest of their upgrades.
<!--quoteo(post=2007166:date=Nov 2 2012, 05:13 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 2 2012, 05:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007166"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lolz...Dont get hit. I am sorry but even with super nerf fade I am still able to survive a considerably long time vs groups of marines with shotguns. Its called hit and run...
Your complaining is seriously over dramatic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why dont you make a video buddy, help the community out a bit.
On a side note I think I'd sooner have the game not be balanced around a ridiculous crux like the power node system. It makes the game horribly unfun for the aliens till maybe one of them can destroy a node. It may have been made as an attempt to stop stalemates but it just aint working. If power nodes were removed as a weakness for marines then aliens would have to be buffed to compensate. That kind of buff might make combat more fun for aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=2007204:date=Nov 2 2012, 05:35 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 05:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007204"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can lie about what I do to for argument, but it serves no purpose. Not only do I not believe you, but you didn't even try to substatiate your argument with things like 'what upgrade level were the marines at'.
A Fade has to hit an A3 marine something like 5 times to kill him. SOLID hits, none of this 'glancing blow' ner######e that they dumped on the Aliens. If the marine is equally as skilled as you (which is how all balance must be considered), he will be able to hit you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
3 and a half solid hits actually, 81 dmg per swipe vs 280 effective hp (at a3). And you seriously do not understand the mechanics of glancing blow if you honestly think aliens got worse due to it being introduced. Also it amuses me how you factor in the skulks lack of accuracy to get 5-10 seconds and yet assume the marines have aimbot accuracy.
<!--quoteo(post=2007722:date=Nov 3 2012, 01:10 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Nov 3 2012, 01:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007722"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3 and a half solid hits actually, 81 dmg per swipe vs 280 effective hp (at a3). And you seriously do not understand the mechanics of glancing blow if you honestly think aliens got worse due to it being introduced. Also it amuses me how you factor in the skulks lack of accuracy to get 5-10 seconds and yet assume the marines have aimbot accuracy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lets call it 4 seeing as you dont talk in half a hit.
The glancing bites made skulk feel a little better but has brought a level of confusion to other lifeforms...the frustration is that marines tech up and get harder to kill...aliens have no way to increase the damage a life form.
Aliens have to get a way to scale, this supposed "mobility edge" is actually a wedgie firmly up their rears. Marines drop a pistol and can pretty much run as fast as a skulk, PG are still on the field in less than 4 min meaning marines can now phase and beacon back to their base.
<b>So before 5 minutes is up any claim the aliens have a mobility edge are a total joke.</b>.
If aliens are meant to simply get better damage through higher life forms than marines should only get it via weapons purchased (ie SG, GL, Flamers) and not a arm lab as they currently do.
Aliens have 4 damage upgrade options ...marines have 4 weapons to upgrade to plus JP's plus they get another three upgrades for their base weapon.
The issues with aliens not scaling and not being able to break marine turtles has been talked about for a long time in the beta period.
All of the really good stuff for aliens is 3 hive and if a chambers sniped it has to be built and researched again (marines dont have to re-research), aliens need to be scaling...it is not fun to play even against noobs as an alien unless you have a good 30% vets and a good khamm.
Don't forget that if an alien wants to go advanced lifeform they have to wait some time in an egg- completely vulnerable. But if a marine wants to upgrade to the most powerful unit in the game- dualies exo, they can not only do so instantly, they can do so while the marine base is being raided faster than you can put on your pants. I for one am getting tired of the "poof, there it is" game mechanics implemented too often for marines. It's a hot fix, a sellout, a hand of god, only slightly more complicated than Console(give exo) and slightly easier than thinking.
Or as beefcake puts it, "<i><b>Because Nanites!</b></i>"
<!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->*snip* That was unneeded - Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
They should balance the competitive scene, because they are the only ones who truly use the teamwork to its full potential.
For pubbing: Sure exos are powerfull, but with a bit of voice chat you can down em real easy. Sure quick onos is real good, but with a bit of voice chat you can down em real easy. etc etc etc
Comments
STFU already and go play, whiners.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/images/news/PostLaunch1/WinLoss.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/images/news/P...ch1/WinLoss.jpg</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll bet the majority of those alien victories are in the first 5 minutes.
Indeed, they are rather pathetic... That sorta means Aliens don't need them right...
Oh that means Aliens only <b>need</b> two hives and a third is just a benefit.
STFU already and go play, whiners.
<img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/images/news/PostLaunch1/WinLoss.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has been discussed to death why that statistic is irrelevant, but i'll reiterate.
What if 50% of alien victories are 2 minute skulk rushes? What if every longer game for aliens is brutally not fun yet 'balanced' in the sense that the aliens oftentimes will eek out a victory after a prolonged match? Theres not enough data present in "aliens win this much and marines win this much" to say whether or not a game is balanced or more importantly, <b>fun</b>.
no, aliens need to control the majority of the map just like marines. the problem is aliens dont do this. they allow marines to sit on 2 chairs and many res towers.
- aliens can secure a 2nd hive 3 minutes into the game. thats pretty damn fast to me. especially if coming from ns1 and you first had to go gorge and THEN get the res to drop the hive and THEN survive the trip to the hive area
I am a high diamond zerg if that means anything and while I'd like to say playing Alien com and on their team feels like zerg, it doesn't. Exos and 3 3 Marine upgrades come far before Onos because Aliens are busy spending a ton of rez to expand earlier, they can't recycle, and marines generally have more map control due to PGs. Just my two cents. :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My 2ct
I'll give you the point about uncontrollable spawn locations - makes no sense that I spawn in Cave when I know that marines are chilling in Ore Deposit waiting to push into Sorting. There should be a mechanism where you can select either a hive or shift to spawn into when the timer runs down (and switch between them right up until the timer runs out). I would also like a recycle option for the alien comm.
However, PGs & beacons aren't quite as OP as you make them out to be. Remember Swiftspear's point - if you force marines to go where they don't want to go (back to defend base), and you do it repeatedly while whittling them down, Aliens will win. Anyway, PGs cycle between locations, rely on power, and only one marine goes through at a time. PGs may enable instantaneous transport, but they are useless if the bulk of the marines (non-Exos) are in transit from their forward base/Tech Point to the hive. Unless the marines run back to the PG and phase to the Tech Point under attack (after cycling through the other PGs) one by one, the only other option is to bacon.
Bacon, aside from being tasty, is also dangerous because you could end up dumping an insufficient number of marines right into a cauldron of spores, fades and onoses. Why insufficient? Because bacon only works on living marines. If you don't have enough marines alive at the time of bacon, all of your footsoldier/JP marines die and you still lose that Tech Point anyway. Even if the beaconed marines are enough to defend the base, smart Aliens just run away from a beacon and the forward Exos usually get smashed because their welders were beaconed away. Now you have marines divided between the initial push that started it all, and welding/building up stuff in the Tech Point that just got hit, and you spent res on that beacon. The Marine push has been derailed, even if only temporarily, and it takes a team effort to get the momentum going again.
And there is another point to consider, observatories are very fragile and I've seen many Beta games where the beacon is ringing, but stops halfway as the obs is quickly destroyed. A quick thinking comm, therefore, has to react very quickly to a coordinated rush - you literally have 2 - 3 seconds to click your obs and call in a beacon - if your attention is diverted elsewhere, you will lose that obs within 5 - 6 seconds.
Also, not to sound rude, but don't bring SC2 rankings into this game. Aliens aren't exactly zerg...for example, the number of players on each team are relatively equal. Some parts are similar to SC2 (such as the ability for zerg to quickly exploit back doors, though in SC2 you do it with Nydus Worms or mass speed-Overlord drops, or just plain speedlings/creep), but I don't think you should look at Aliens being similar to Zerg...because they are not.
Also regarding the comment about RT...every marine RT requires a marine or MAC to build it - that's one more marine that isn't shooting an alien in the face. Alien RTs build themselves. Lone skulks have an easier time of killing RTs than lone marines do - they are much more mobile, they're much smaller and can hide behind the RT and continue to bite it, using the 'squirrel' technique to keep the RT between the skulk and the marine looking to shoot him off of it. Marines either shoot or axe the RT - shooting uses up ammo and occupies the primary weapon, leaving a marine vulnerable to attack between reloads. Axing introduces a delay between hitting the RT and switching back to the gun.
Aliens need 3 tech nodes to max their tech.
Marines need 2 (barely).
There's 5 nodes per map.
See the issue? There's no real reason for aliens to need to secure a fourth hive, and there's no real reason for marines to really want to push for a third command... bunker... thing.
If Marines were forced to having 3 as well, you would force conflict and frankly I think it would benefit the game better as the game would hinge around tech 2 / 3 instead of marines just getting a free ride to Exoville.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, there is that whole winning the game thing. But I guess for some people sim-base is fun.
Doubtful, because aliens are not weaker than marines in the late game, nor the mid game. They're only positionally weaker than marines, which doesn't equate to objectively weaker.
Also, one of the best ways to counter the Exos is force engagements around the entire map, exploiting their lack of mobility. Unfortunately this isn't feasible on several maps due to the ability to constrict movement and avenues of attack. So fundamentally there are other factors at work.
Locking A3 and W2 behind a techpoint would also be nice.
and here i thought majority meant more than HALF
Alien position of strength: Directly next to a marine
Marine position of strength: Everywhere else.
I think you'll find that marines position of strength is rather large compared to aliens.
Marine position of strength: Everywhere else.
I think you'll find that marines position of strength is rather large compared to aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For marines to respond to an alien attack is expensive. Marines take a long time to get to a res node, marines must be bunched up to counter lifeforms like fades and lerks, marines are very strong if near a marine base, close to a phase gate, but the further they get from a base of operations they either have to invest more into res into the push outwards, or they have to hope aliens don't exploit their natural weakness of being away from a base.
For aliens, they don't have much of a strength advantage near their own base. They are strong everywhere on the map. The only thing that really threatens them is a concentrated marine attack. 1 marine cannot defend a res node from a fade. 2 marines also cannot. On average, by the time a marine can respond to 1 res node going down from spawn, the alien, can already have moved to, and destroyed another res node. The marines are in the difficult position of not really being able to fully respond to the alien's ability to do damage on obscure places in the map. On pubs marines heavily rely on the aliens ignoring their positions on the map until it's too late. It is MUCH MUCH easier for aliens to respond to 2 marines moving around the map distroying nodes than it is for the marines to respond to 2 skulks moving around the map and destroying nodes. 1 fade destroying nodes, or supporting node killing skulks is so difficult to deal with it's almost unfair.
Any time a marine has to move from one room to another they are at risk of losing invested position, and invested res. This is almost never the case for aliens. As alien the whole map usually feels safe, with little pockets of danger, as marines the opposite is true. This is an INCREDIBLY powerful advantage for aliens. And they are VERY capable of using that advantage to SERIOUSLY damage the marine economy, and the marine ability to keep neck to neck in upgrades in tech. What aliens are not able to do is wait until marines set up right beside their hive before beginning to combat the marine push.
Punishing marines means killing them before they get to the places they want to secure, and killing anything they leave undefended. Aliens largely do not have to worry about leaving things undefended if they are playing correctly.
If Marines can force the Aliens to react to their pushes, they tend to win due to their ability to scale much more efficiently with larger numbers. If Aliens though force Marines to react to them spreading around the map, the Marines can't keep up and spread themselves too thin meaning Aliens will win.
So then the question is whether people are playing their roles correctly and do people realize how to apply global map pressure? Likely no.
I recall fondly many a times in NS1 as a comm I won a siege for a Hive but lost all my nodes on the rest of the map. We lost shortly after.
It's like this game was balanced for tier 1 aliens with carapace vs tier 1 marines. And since the aliens get absolutely NOTHING to help protect them beyond T1 carapace, with W2 and W3, marine firepower becomes totally unmanageable in the mid and endgame.
The TTK with a skulk vs. a normal marine is about even with a marine vs. a normal skulk.
Once you get to the midgame, with A2 or even A3, the TTK for a skulk against a marine becomes something in the realm of 5-10 seconds depending on how good he is at leaping around. On the other hand, even with carapace, the TTK against skulks with W2 and W3 becomes so short it's measured in decimal places. I've been killed in what I imagine are just 4-5 round bursts. Just *BLUT* dead.
The issue gets worse when you introduce shotguns, because even against Fades, the firepower is so completely imbalanced that aliens cannot compete. It takes just two or three good shotgun blasts to kill a fully upgraded Fade, and it takes, still, 5-10 seconds for a Fade to kill a marine who's aware of him. One shot with the shotgun almost anywhere will kill a Skulk.
Honestly the gameplay has gotten so bad that when I start getting <b>literally</b> instagibbed by the marines, I just quit. It's not fun. It's not balanced. It's terrible.
It's like this game was balanced for tier 1 aliens with carapace vs tier 1 marines. And since the aliens get absolutely NOTHING to help protect them beyond T1 carapace, with W2 and W3, marine firepower becomes totally unmanageable in the mid and endgame.
The TTK with a skulk vs. a normal marine is about even with a marine vs. a normal skulk.
Once you get to the midgame, with A2 or even A3, the TTK for a skulk against a marine becomes something in the realm of 5-10 seconds depending on how good he is at leaping around. On the other hand, even with carapace, the TTK against skulks with W2 and W3 becomes so short it's measured in decimal places. I've been killed in what I imagine are just 4-5 round bursts. Just *BLUT* dead.
The issue gets worse when you introduce shotguns, because even against Fades, the firepower is so completely imbalanced that aliens cannot compete. It takes just two or three good shotgun blasts to kill a fully upgraded Fade, and it takes, still, 5-10 seconds for a Fade to kill a marine who's aware of him. One shot with the shotgun almost anywhere will kill a Skulk.
Honestly the gameplay has gotten so bad that when I start getting <b>literally</b> instagibbed by the marines, I just quit. It's not fun. It's not balanced. It's terrible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lolz...Dont get hit.
I am sorry but even with super nerf fade I am still able to survive a considerably long time vs groups of marines with shotguns.
Its called hit and run...
Your complaining is seriously over dramatic.
I am sorry but even with super nerf fade I am still able to survive a considerably long time vs groups of marines with shotguns.
Its called hit and run...
Your complaining is seriously over dramatic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can lie about what I do to for argument, but it serves no purpose. Not only do I not believe you, but you didn't even try to substatiate your argument with things like 'what upgrade level were the marines at'.
A Fade has to hit an A3 marine something like 5 times to kill him. SOLID hits, none of this 'glancing blow' ner######e that they dumped on the Aliens. If the marine is equally as skilled as you (which is how all balance must be considered), he will be able to hit you.
If you don't kill the marine and 'run', then the marine gobbles a medkit and goes on his way. Or hangs out next to an armory for 4 seconds.
So yeah, I'm calling you out on your bull######. Let's see your 'hit and run Fade' thats' not getting hit with this suspiciously bogus hit detection, against groups of marines with shotguns. $10 says you won't do it.
anywhoits, back to balance....
That is true. The only way to prevent that would be to scale egg production and inversely scale Marine build time. But that would just be frustrating for the Marines.
<a href="http://i.imgur.com/sCdNP.png" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/sCdNP.png</a>
Basically, if the aliens don't ride the wave to victory before marines finish teching up, it becomes almost impossible for them to win, not unless they manage to get enough Onii and a few lucky breaks. Even then, it's not assured. If an alien team is coordinated enough to get an Onos push to break up the marine base, we have to assume the marines are coordinated enough to be able to mitigate the damage done or strike an equally crippling blow against the aliens.
It's like this game was balanced for tier 1 aliens with carapace vs tier 1 marines. And since the aliens get absolutely NOTHING to help protect them beyond T1 carapace, with W2 and W3, marine firepower becomes totally unmanageable in the mid and endgame.
The TTK with a skulk vs. a normal marine is about even with a marine vs. a normal skulk.
Once you get to the midgame, with A2 or even A3, the TTK for a skulk against a marine becomes something in the realm of 5-10 seconds depending on how good he is at leaping around. On the other hand, even with carapace, the TTK against skulks with W2 and W3 becomes so short it's measured in decimal places. I've been killed in what I imagine are just 4-5 round bursts. Just *BLUT* dead.
The issue gets worse when you introduce shotguns, because even against Fades, the firepower is so completely imbalanced that aliens cannot compete. It takes just two or three good shotgun blasts to kill a fully upgraded Fade, and it takes, still, 5-10 seconds for a Fade to kill a marine who's aware of him. One shot with the shotgun almost anywhere will kill a Skulk.
Honestly the gameplay has gotten so bad that when I start getting <b>literally</b> instagibbed by the marines, I just quit. It's not fun. It's not balanced. It's terrible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens upgrades are worthless. Cool you got celerity ? That does nothing for you in combat, just means you can run to your death faster. Cool you got carapace ? I believe thats an extra 5 bullets from a rifle. Oh also you will still get one shot by a shotgun.
"For marines to respond to an alien attack is expensive. Marines take a long time to get to a res node, marines must be bunched up to counter lifeforms like fades and lerks, marines are very strong if near a marine base, close to a phase gate, but the further they get from a base of operations they either have to invest more into res into the push outwards, or they have to hope aliens don't exploit their natural weakness of being away from a base."
Uhh no ? What are you talking about ? You spawn in 5 seconds, you can phase across the map, you can beacon to base if its in trouble, and you can sprint at around skulk pre celerity speed. Also a marine with 3 3 and a shotgun (10 rez) can kill a fade. Yes you can snipe 1 rez node, but guess what can easily recycle it if they aren't derping. To counter a lerk you have one guy with a shotgun who can kill him in one or two hits... Lerks are not an issue to deal with for marines at any stage of the game. Fades, yes it probably requires 2 to deal with him. But guess what thats 50 rez you just spent to be at equal strength with 2 marines who spent nothing. Oh and if one of those persons bought a shotgun then no 2 marines will destroy a fade. Their natural weakness of being away from base ? You mean the base they can instantly teleport to through a PG or do you mean the base that the whole team can instantly be at with the click of a buttton?
@Temphage I think that power graph is real generous to Aliens.
I've played 50 games so far, and the only wins are marine commander being new, or getting their power down before they can get the rest of their upgrades.
I am sorry but even with super nerf fade I am still able to survive a considerably long time vs groups of marines with shotguns.
Its called hit and run...
Your complaining is seriously over dramatic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why dont you make a video buddy, help the community out a bit.
On a side note I think I'd sooner have the game not be balanced around a ridiculous crux like the power node system. It makes the game horribly unfun for the aliens till maybe one of them can destroy a node. It may have been made as an attempt to stop stalemates but it just aint working. If power nodes were removed as a weakness for marines then aliens would have to be buffed to compensate. That kind of buff might make combat more fun for aliens.
A Fade has to hit an A3 marine something like 5 times to kill him. SOLID hits, none of this 'glancing blow' ner######e that they dumped on the Aliens. If the marine is equally as skilled as you (which is how all balance must be considered), he will be able to hit you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
3 and a half solid hits actually, 81 dmg per swipe vs 280 effective hp (at a3). And you seriously do not understand the mechanics of glancing blow if you honestly think aliens got worse due to it being introduced. Also it amuses me how you factor in the skulks lack of accuracy to get 5-10 seconds and yet assume the marines have aimbot accuracy.
Lets call it 4 seeing as you dont talk in half a hit.
The glancing bites made skulk feel a little better but has brought a level of confusion to other lifeforms...the frustration is that marines tech up and get harder to kill...aliens have no way to increase the damage a life form.
Aliens have to get a way to scale, this supposed "mobility edge" is actually a wedgie firmly up their rears. Marines drop a pistol and can pretty much run as fast as a skulk, PG are still on the field in less than 4 min meaning marines can now phase and beacon back to their base.
<b>So before 5 minutes is up any claim the aliens have a mobility edge are a total joke.</b>.
If aliens are meant to simply get better damage through higher life forms than marines should only get it via weapons purchased (ie SG, GL, Flamers) and not a arm lab as they currently do.
Aliens have 4 damage upgrade options ...marines have 4 weapons to upgrade to plus JP's plus they get another three upgrades for their base weapon.
The issues with aliens not scaling and not being able to break marine turtles has been talked about for a long time in the beta period.
All of the really good stuff for aliens is 3 hive and if a chambers sniped it has to be built and researched again (marines dont have to re-research), aliens need to be scaling...it is not fun to play even against noobs as an alien unless you have a good 30% vets and a good khamm.
Or as beefcake puts it, "<i><b>Because Nanites!</b></i>"
That was unneeded - Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
They should balance the competitive scene, because they are the only ones who truly use the teamwork to its full potential.
For pubbing:
Sure exos are powerfull, but with a bit of voice chat you can down em real easy.
Sure quick onos is real good, but with a bit of voice chat you can down em real easy.
etc etc etc
aliens have to outplay you so much to win
<a href="http://i.imgur.com/CkEAk.png" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/CkEAk.png</a>