I read today that Skulks kill max armor Marines faster than Fades. That should explain everything. Why everything was stripped from mid-tier lifeforms or extremely nerfed with nothing to compensate.
Oh but the devs, they'll compensate with higher base damage, or armor/hp. I'm sure of it. LOLNOPE. Less armor, less health. No metabolize. And swipe does less damage.
<!--quoteo(post=2010490:date=Nov 5 2012, 01:41 AM:name=Ansom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ansom @ Nov 5 2012, 01:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010490"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wall of rage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you related to Temphage? I agree there are things wrong with aliens but it comes down to underlying faults, you cant accuse the entire alien system of being totally useless but I agree alot of it is sub-par.
Actually Skulk does 70 dmg vs fades 81, so fade still kills marines faster... just ;) But yeah Fade has been the worst hit in the transition between NS1 and NS2, they were monsters in NS1... Then again NS1 JP + HMG's were equally crazy powerful, without NS1 JP + HMG combo they watered down the OMFGade to a pansy fade of wet tissue fade... hopefully it will be addressed soon...
<!--quoteo(post=2010346:date=Nov 4 2012, 04:44 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 4 2012, 04:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010346"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its not so bad with exos... but its pretty much: End game aliens should be 50/50 gorge and onos. Fades are useless for everything but killing rambo RT hunters/phase gaters (Not to mention onos do it better) and you only need 1 lerk to umbra/poison spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, maybe not exos so much, but it does make a huge huge difference. I remember an early game when I first got to try the exosuit. All the skilled players then bought their own exo and the com took care of me and the rest of us rookies. Seven guys in exosuits. we were pretty much a wrecking ball, and the aliens couldn't do jack. We just went from hive to hive killing everything.
Was funny though. Especially since one guy was singing Ride of the Valkyries while we were doing it.
But I'm getting off topic...
Aliens certainly aren't broken and don't need *fixing*, but there are obvious balance issues, especially late game.
if the marines have the resources to get 7 (dual) exos, the aliens did some mistakes in the early game and shouldn't be allowed to win the game ...
all this exo spamming will end anyway, when we get better fades. They will just dominate the marines, if they don't buy shotguns and pay some res that way ;)
Yes, yes, please continue to use exo suits instead of jetpacks.
You guys make it that much easier to pub stomp marines as aliens.
Unless the aliens are stuck in one hive, and you own the entire map, you should never use Exo's in my opinion. One Onos can clear two marine CC's before an entire team of Exo's can clear two hives.
<!--quoteo(post=2010536:date=Nov 4 2012, 07:27 PM:name=koewi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (koewi @ Nov 4 2012, 07:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010536"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if the marines have the resources to get 7 (dual) exos, the aliens did some mistakes in the early game and shouldn't be allowed to win the game ...
all this exo spamming will end anyway, when we get better fades. They will just dominate the marines, if they don't buy shotguns and pay some res that way ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While 7 dual Exos is an exaggeration, there are cons to going Exo. Because you can't get out of an Exo suit, if you manage to ninja the power nodes on Marine bases and kill all Marines on foot, the game's over. Exos can't use Phase Gates nor can they be recalled by a beacon, and they're really slow so they won't be able to react to a backdoor attack. Even if they get there, they can't repair downed power nodes. It's a really bad idea to have a bunch of Exos all at once I think.
<!--quoteo(post=2010609:date=Nov 5 2012, 03:31 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 5 2012, 03:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One Onos can clear two marine CC's before an entire team of Exo's can clear two hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens are boring because the skulks are huge slugs, wall jumping is a poor replacement for bunnyhopping, air control is imprecise(responds only to strafe rather than view direction+strafe) and leap is nerfed to hell. Blink+swipe and leap+bite is not an effective way to take down JPs, rather you wait until the nerfpacks run out of fuel and snag them.
<!--quoteo(post=2010320:date=Nov 4 2012, 06:27 PM:name=MaximumSquid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ Nov 4 2012, 06:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Until aliens go even on summit with marines theres going to need to be some changes
I think low cost whips that share hive population with drifters is a good start<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2010498:date=Nov 4 2012, 07:46 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 4 2012, 07:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010498"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually Skulk does 70 dmg vs fades 81, so fade still kills marines faster... just ;) But yeah Fade has been the worst hit in the transition between NS1 and NS2, they were monsters in NS1... Then again NS1 JP + HMG's were equally crazy powerful, without NS1 JP + HMG combo they watered down the OMFGade to a pansy fade of wet tissue fade... hopefully it will be addressed soon...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulk and Fade kill A3 Marines in 4 hits. So.. the same. Yet one is 50 resources.
Really getting sad about this Onos situation. Everyone's like.. WINRATE! IT'S PRETTY EVEN! But what they don't understand is that it's an over reliance HUGE HUGE over reliance on Onos. I don't know what it means. Dunno what the devs are gonna do, if anything. I want the love spread to all alien units. Instead of having one trick. Pretty bland currently.
<!--quoteo(post=2010742:date=Nov 4 2012, 10:31 PM:name=BootyPoppin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BootyPoppin @ Nov 4 2012, 10:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulk and Fade kill A3 Marines in 4 hits. So.. the same. Yet one is 50 resources.
Really getting sad about this Onos situation. Everyone's like.. WINRATE! IT'S PRETTY EVEN! But what they don't understand is that it's an over reliance HUGE HUGE over reliance on Onos. I don't know what it means. Dunno what the devs are gonna do, if anything. I want the love spread to all alien units. Instead of having one trick. Pretty bland currently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's even because there are a lot of new people, and I see a lot of vets playing aliens A LOT. Once the skill level has averaged out some it should be pretty interesting to see how the split goes.
<!--quoteo(post=2010742:date=Nov 5 2012, 01:31 AM:name=BootyPoppin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BootyPoppin @ Nov 5 2012, 01:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really getting sad about this Onos situation. Everyone's like.. WINRATE! IT'S PRETTY EVEN! But what they don't understand is that it's an over reliance HUGE HUGE over reliance on Onos. I don't know what it means. Dunno what the devs are gonna do, if anything. I want the love spread to all alien units. Instead of having one trick. Pretty bland currently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2010772:date=Nov 4 2012, 11:09 PM:name=Rowen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rowen @ Nov 4 2012, 11:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I did once exactly that (killing two CCs with a single onos while the exo train was away) and won the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeaaah...just hit the power in both (Since they're undefended) and once the Marines are killed off, you win.
I like wall-jumping, despite not being particularly good at it, and prefer it to bunny-hopping. I used it in-combat recently to solo 3 marines, and it was glorious! I felt like I was in a horror film, lol. I understand it doesn't currently replace the hole that experienced NS1 players have for BHing, but I hope that it can fill that hole, even though it won't do so in the same way. I also think it will be awesome to watch skulks bouncing off walls in combat, instead of simply circling Marines' legs.
<!--quoteo(post=2010774:date=Nov 5 2012, 03:10 AM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Nov 5 2012, 03:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeaaah...just hit the power in both (Since they're undefended) and once the Marines are killed off, you win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, if he had gone for the power, it wouldn't have been as easy of a win. By killing the CC's, he didn't need to kill the Marines to win, which would have been difficult because they were grouped up in a ball of death.
<!--quoteo(post=2010490:date=Nov 4 2012, 09:41 PM:name=Ansom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ansom @ Nov 4 2012, 09:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010490"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Almost every Alien form relies on hit and run. Yet, they're playing against a team with a command structure that encourages cooperation and sticking together. Almost every Alien form relies on a melee attack and an evasive maneuver. That's more difficult to pull off than pointing and shooting. What the hell do the Aliens have to deal with multiple enemies? What the hell do Aliens have to do with the turtling?
And then, you look at the Marines. They don't have to use a melee attack and evasive movement. They can just point and shoot and mow ###### down next to an armory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, Aliens have better hit and run, Marines have better concentrated force. The counter to marines grouping up excessively is to attack a different location on the map. Aliens can move throughout the map faster than marines can.
An example: I recently played a game where as aliens we had them down to two main bases, but they seemed to have deep pockets of resources, continuing to build and rebuild Exo's, and assaulting our hive repeatedly. As a team I coordinated our assault on their backline base. They beaconed back, so we retreated from that and resumed an assault on their forward base. They beaconed to that base, so we reversed our assault again. We took out their main power before they could beacon again to defend, and then easily cleaned up.
While the pubbie balance suffers from the "race to mass Onos/Exo", especially leaving Lurk & Fade somewhat useless, that tends to be the case with newbies and any RTS. (Starcraft newbs = mass Carrier, mass Battlecruiser, mass OMFGEVERYTHING zerg.) Newbies start with simple win tactics.
<b><!--coloro:#8B0000--><span style="color:#8B0000"><!--/coloro-->tl;dr: I hope wall-jumping can work for pros, Aliens must use large-scale flanking to beat Marine turtling/ball of death, balance Lurk/Fade/Onos<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
Aliens should start with all of their abilities out of the box. Hive upgrades should be damage/armor/utility. Marines start off good and become better. Aliens start off gimped and become normal.
<!--quoteo(post=2010609:date=Nov 5 2012, 04:31 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 5 2012, 04:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, yes, please continue to use exo suits instead of jetpacks.
You guys make it that much easier to pub stomp marines as aliens.
Unless the aliens are stuck in one hive, and you own the entire map, you should never use Exo's in my opinion. One Onos can clear two marine CC's before an entire team of Exo's can clear two hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, I get incredibly frustrated when I see a proto lab being built and then JP is grayed out while dual is reasearching..... I just wanted to slap my ###### in the commanders face every time. Later you see all the marines on 1 side of the map while a single gorge clear the other side, lol.
The only reason the marine team is being stacked is that all the new players are used to point and click adventures. Most people just want to jump straight in a shoot some stuff. I get it, it's fun. Just give it some time and more people will enjoy aliens.
Aliens require some thought behind it to play, you need to scout, harass, ambush, surprise, dodge well and know your lifeforms in synergy with your team.
Now to something different but very much related to this; Temphage has to be the single most destructive person to the game on this forum. Never have I seen a more opinionated and less insightful person post this much about balance which is the last area someone like that should even touch with a ten foot stick.
Why?
Well he proved that once again in this thread by saying that; "If the problem is that the aliens are too difficult, then the skill floor needs to come down."
This is the worst idea I've ever heard in a discussion about game development. The skill roof should always be high, in fact, it could be much higher for some of the alien lifeforms. I sincerely hope that what you're trying to say is that the initial skill needed should be lower. This in turn is in my opinion a bad idea as well since aliens isn't that hard to learn. I sincerely believe that the issue is that the new generation of PC gamers have been spoiled and don't enjoy a challenge as much as gamers did back in the day. Here's the interesting part, this game is not made for people who don't want to improve and test themselves. It's almost an old school multiplayer FPS game. New school means you have your hand held all the way, I don't like that. That's why I play games like this instead of WoW, CoD, the sims and so on. I suggest you move back to one of those if you really don't want to learn how to play aliens.
I really don't want to flame people but this has gotten way out of hand. Temphage, have you heard about the phenomena that negative people only see negative things?
Every post I've seen from you has either been negative feedback or has been claiming that everyone else is just saying negative things. When the game was in beta, the amount of negative threads was miniscule compared to this. It's people that's the problem - not the game. There are lots and lots of positive feedback since release as well but when it comes to this forum, certain people make it damn hard for it to shine through since they flood it with negative stuff and whine.
The short answer to when is aliens being fixed in terms of being fun to play is; when you learn to play them.
<!--quoteo(post=2010937:date=Nov 5 2012, 04:38 AM:name=Brainmaggot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brainmaggot @ Nov 5 2012, 04:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010937"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well he proved that once again in this thread by saying that; "If the problem is that the aliens are too difficult, then the <b><i>skill <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->floor<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> </i></b>needs to come down."
This is the worst idea I've ever heard in a discussion about game development. The <i><b>skill <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->roof<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b></i> should always be high, in fact, it could be much higher for some of the alien lifeforms. I sincerely hope that what you're trying to say is that the initial skill needed should be lower.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're not on the same page. I agree with him. Aliens suck compared to Marines. They took the old Aliens and butchered them up into small pieces that now require additional hives and structures and research to obtain. Like I said above, the Marines start out good and get better. The Aliens begin the game gimped and have to be brought up to what they once were. ######'s sad.
And, since the difference in skill required to perform as an Alien versus a Marine is pretty significant, the latter easily snowball better. Most of the Alien forms are hit and run; taking out single targets and getting out. That's pretty damn powerful early on when people feel a little more adventurous and are less armored and armed, but what does it become later on when Marines stack up near a handful of Exosuits or ARCs? Being easier to play means more kills which means more resource which means simply out-researching Aliens. There's nothing fun at all about getting one-shot as a Skulk by someone you can seemingly bite for days and not take down.
The Aliens are reliant on the Onos to deal with late-game Marines with even the slightest coordination, because most of their classes are simply not fit for dealing with multiple enemies, and to make things worse? The reliance isn't even against organic units solely. Aliens can't siege Marine forward bases as well as Marines can siege Alien hives, yet it's not the Aliens that need to be countered for turtling. The Marines are the ultimate turtles with their armories, phase gates, sentry nests, and so on. Aliens are reliant on cheesing; rushing all-in with Onos to destroy a Command Center or waiting until the Marines go all in and hoping they can counter with lame ass BACKDOORING because they have nothing to progressively whittle down Marine installments.
What the hell do Aliens have that require Artillery fire, Grenade spam, Exosuits, and Flamethrowers? Whips and Hydras? It's not comparable to a Sentry nest, where Skulks, Fades, and the like are hard-pressed to get in and take them out while sustaining fire. Marines can corner Whips and Hydras or simply out range them without a problem. What a joke. The Aliens lack diversity. All of their roles are the same, and the roles that are different are so devalued and watered down from the original. The Gorge. He was such a valuable, useful unit in the original. He was my favorite. Now what is he good for? Healing people who already have regeneration or the mobility to head back to the Hive? Don't want to stick around waiting for the Gorge to spit on you because Marines with their 12 second sprint can easily catch up to you guys and destroy you.
Hydras? Clogs? You gotta be kidding me. You have to be a complete moron to die to Hydras, and Clogs provide nothing but a few seconds of annoyance for the Marine who has to hatchet through them. Bile Bomb is arguably the only good thing about NS2 Gorges. Their spit feels weird compared to the original, is bugged, and none of their projectiles can be seen and adjusted for when in Alien Vision, something mandatory given how dark most of the maps are. That's just gameplay alone. Don't get me started on how unoptimized the game is.
I honestly feel more and more like uninstalling. I'm not trying to be a ###### here. It's just that I see it as problematic.
All the NS1 nostalgics should look up the word misoneism. Hey what the heck, I'll do it for you!
Definition of MISONEISM
: a hatred, fear, or intolerance of innovation or change
This isn't a patched NS1, it's a new game.
Needing 2 hives is a new way to play, just try it out before you go BAWWWWWWWWWWW I'M ANGRY AND SAD. It forces aliens to actually take parts of the map instead of hive teleporting. Personally, I like it.
The same goes for the guy with the jetpacker comment. In NS1 the jetpacks worked differently and the leap and the blink worked differently. You did all the thinking yourself without realizing it, you now can more realiably wait for them to run out of fuel and them kill them. Then do it! Killing them is still the goal.
EnderA wrote; "While the pubbie balance suffers from the "race to mass Onos/Exo", especially leaving Lurk & Fade somewhat useless, that tends to be the case with newbies and any RTS. (Starcraft newbs = mass Carrier, mass Battlecruiser, mass OMFGEVERYTHING zerg.) Newbies start with simple win tactics."
This is very relevant. The metagame on public servers right now is dominated by what's easy to come up with, easy to use and easy to win with. That's onos egg spam. It's more difficult to use teamplay to have fades, lerks and gorges be your force of attack and win with it but it's not really worse. It will be used, in due time.
The short answer to when is aliens being fixed in terms of being fun to play is; when you learn to play them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. A thousand times this.
What new players, and players not used to playing aliens need to understand is that this game is not a current-generation shooter in some regards. You actually need to LEARN how to play the game, instead of having the game play itself for you. I know, I know, it's an uncomfortable idea for current-gen shooter fans, but it is still a fact. Marines, arguably, are a lot simpler to pick up and play for a new player, due to the FPS mechanics that most players will experience, and have experienced in the past.
The aliens, on the other hand, play differently, and requires other things from the players, as have been pointed out. What drew me to the aliens, besides the obvious fact that you can play your wildest Aliens® fantasies and the kneechomping mechanics, was the fact that it felt fresh and new, compared to the cookie-cutter brand of shooters out there. When first playing the skulk, I sucked. Bad. But I never thought "boy, this game is so hard, better get the devs to nerf and buff everything to hell and back just because I feel uncomfortable as a Skulk right now.". Instead, I practiced and got better. Nowadays, aliens are by far my favourite race to play, just because I put a lot of effort into getting better at it.
Saying that a game will suffer, because it's harder to learn than most games just shows a lack of respect to dedicated gamers. Sure, the 12-year old CoD-kids will ###### and moan that the game is too hard or that feature X, Y or Z is over/underpowered, but then again, they always will, regardless of what's being done. "True" gamers will realize that Aliens (and marines, to some extent) is something new and different, and man up to the task of actually learning to play the races.
In closing, I have to agree with brainmaggot that the amount of negativity coming out of some members on this forum is staggering, and MUCH, MUCH more detrimental to the game as a whole compared to percieved "boringness" of aliens, or balance issues that will be ironed out when the new players experience new tactics and strategies.
tl;dr - L2P and see your game experience become a whole lot more enjoyable. I hate to be that guy, but so much whine on this forum can easily be countered with "L2P."
Spoiler: Using the "COD KIDS" argument is more toxic than if the people arguing about this game's poor balancing were actually those sort of people. Can you resort to intellectually giving up in a more obvious fashion? I honestly don't think so. That's indeed one of the problems, though, and it shouldn't be overlooked because you feel like some veteran rattling his cane at casuals. The Aliens take much more skill to play than the Marines. So, what's the problem with compensating them in some way? Instead, the Marines are the ones with the "spice". Aliens just get utility mutations, but absolutely nothing that scales them over time like Marine upgrades. Skulks are already at a disadvantage against vanilla marines, so what happens later in the game when Marines are beefier and Skulks pretty much remain the same? The Skulk is the Alien's version of the vanilla LMG Marine, and it simply doesn't stack up or scale at all into late game. Enjoy never getting the res to mutate into a higher lifeform, and guess what? That's just ONE PROBLEM.
<!--quoteo(post=2010967:date=Nov 5 2012, 01:05 PM:name=Ansom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ansom @ Nov 5 2012, 01:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spoiler: Using the "COD KIDS" argument is more toxic than if the people arguing about this game's poor balancing were actually those sort of people. Can you resort to intellectually giving up in a more obvious fashion? I honestly don't think so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For everyone who is still ranting on about balance being perfect: We are not saying aliens cant win, but that aliens HAVE to use the same strategies each game(TRes onos and Crag/Shift hive first) to win (balanced (evenly skilled teams)) games. This is due to the majority of the Alien tech tree being limp wrist-ed and the early Onos with Team res being stupidly powerful and thus a crutch to prevent aliens from losing.
The attempts to "balance" aliens are not to make them more powerful but to nerf some aspects (eg. early onos) and buff others (eg. shade tree & fade) thus creating and even distribution of balance within the alien tech tree as opposed to some elements being very powerful and others being fairly pointless.
And if the game's balance isn't as off as most people on these forums claim? Then suddenly it's the most reasonable way of facing the "arguments" of the people who claim that.
Do you really think that players have a thorough understanding of the game balance as a whole after a maximum of 5 days of playing? I don't.
<!--quoteo(post=2010967:date=Nov 5 2012, 03:05 PM:name=Ansom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ansom @ Nov 5 2012, 03:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spoiler: Using the "COD KIDS" argument is more toxic than if the people arguing about this game's poor balancing were actually those sort of people. Can you resort to intellectually giving up in a more obvious fashion? I honestly don't think so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fine. Let's all start calling them "Individuals who are used to having their hand held while playing, leaving them unable to cope with challenges and new obstacles in game. This inexperience with challenges leads to anger and resentment towards the game for being too hard, instead of actually learning to play the game with the tools given."
or IWAUTHTHHWPLTUTCWCANOIGTIWCLTAARTTGFBTHIOALTPTGWTTG-kids, for short.
I agree, that's a whole lot more reasonable term to use. Thanks, Ansom.
<!--quoteo(post=2010973:date=Nov 5 2012, 01:09 PM:name=Brainmaggot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brainmaggot @ Nov 5 2012, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010973"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you really think that players have a thorough understanding of the game balance as a whole after a maximum of 5 days of playing? I don't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played the Closed Beta for the last god knows how many months.
I want aliens to have their hand held as much as marines, or vice versa. As long as one team requires you to just be 'better' to simply compete, the game cannot function.
Different playstyles is fine, but there's no denying that non-commanding marines enjoy a pretty simple, straightforward life.
But I'm also one of those guys who cares more about a game being interesting and fun rather than how much TEH SKILLZ is takes to play. I grew out of FPS-gaming ######-waving contests a decade ago, and I prefer seeing interesting new concepts and large amounts of depth, rather than minimalist design simply to try to make it appeal to people with dumb acronyms in brackets at the beginning of their names.
Comments
I read today that Skulks kill max armor Marines faster than Fades. That should explain everything. Why everything was stripped from mid-tier lifeforms or extremely nerfed with nothing to compensate.
Acid Rocket.
Ranged Spores.
Metabolize.
Primal Scream.
Focus.
Oh but the devs, they'll compensate with higher base damage, or armor/hp. I'm sure of it. LOLNOPE. Less armor, less health. No metabolize. And swipe does less damage.
Kbro.
Are you related to Temphage?
I agree there are things wrong with aliens but it comes down to underlying faults, you cant accuse the entire alien system of being totally useless but I agree alot of it is sub-par.
<!--quoteo(post=2010491:date=Nov 5 2012, 01:42 AM:name=BootyPoppin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BootyPoppin @ Nov 5 2012, 01:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010491"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stuffs<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually Skulk does 70 dmg vs fades 81, so fade still kills marines faster... just ;)
But yeah Fade has been the worst hit in the transition between NS1 and NS2, they were monsters in NS1...
Then again NS1 JP + HMG's were equally crazy powerful, without NS1 JP + HMG combo they watered down the
OMFGade to a pansy fade of wet tissue fade... hopefully it will be addressed soon...
But that's probably because Aliens are so much more versatile in playstyle.
Want to defend and build defences? Go gorge!
Want to ambush and harass incoming marines, go skulk!
Want to play sniper or batman? Go Lerk!
Want to stir up one hell of a mess? Go Fade !
Feeling berserky? Go Onos and stomp on the puny humans!
Give aliens a chance, they're fun ! :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorge can only build 2 buildings, both of which can be killed with extreme ease by a single marine.
A viable tactic until Marines get upgraded armor and guns - so viable for 5 minutes.
Lerk "darts" do next to no damage and the Lerk itself is very fragile, making combat with a Lerk very tricky. (Shotgun to the face! Woo!)
A viable tactic until the jetpacks and Exos start spewing out.
Extremely expensive and only effective if spammed. A lone onos is exo bait.
Fades are useless for everything but killing rambo RT hunters/phase gaters (Not to mention onos do it better) and you only need 1 lerk to umbra/poison spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, maybe not exos so much, but it does make a huge huge difference. I remember an early game when I first got to try the exosuit. All the skilled players then bought their own exo and the com took care of me and the rest of us rookies. Seven guys in exosuits. we were pretty much a wrecking ball, and the aliens couldn't do jack. We just went from hive to hive killing everything.
Was funny though. Especially since one guy was singing Ride of the Valkyries while we were doing it.
But I'm getting off topic...
Aliens certainly aren't broken and don't need *fixing*, but there are obvious balance issues, especially late game.
all this exo spamming will end anyway, when we get better fades. They will just dominate the marines, if they don't buy shotguns and pay some res that way ;)
You guys make it that much easier to pub stomp marines as aliens.
Unless the aliens are stuck in one hive, and you own the entire map, you should never use Exo's in my opinion. One Onos can clear two marine CC's before an entire team of Exo's can clear two hives.
all this exo spamming will end anyway, when we get better fades. They will just dominate the marines, if they don't buy shotguns and pay some res that way ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While 7 dual Exos is an exaggeration, there are cons to going Exo. Because you can't get out of an Exo suit, if you manage to ninja the power nodes on Marine bases and kill all Marines on foot, the game's over. Exos can't use Phase Gates nor can they be recalled by a beacon, and they're really slow so they won't be able to react to a backdoor attack. Even if they get there, they can't repair downed power nodes. It's a really bad idea to have a bunch of Exos all at once I think.
Lol... no.
I think low cost whips that share hive population with drifters is a good start<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I literally shuddered when I read this....
But yeah Fade has been the worst hit in the transition between NS1 and NS2, they were monsters in NS1...
Then again NS1 JP + HMG's were equally crazy powerful, without NS1 JP + HMG combo they watered down the
OMFGade to a pansy fade of wet tissue fade... hopefully it will be addressed soon...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulk and Fade kill A3 Marines in 4 hits. So.. the same. Yet one is 50 resources.
Really getting sad about this Onos situation. Everyone's like.. WINRATE! IT'S PRETTY EVEN! But what they don't understand is that it's an over reliance HUGE HUGE over reliance on Onos. I don't know what it means. Dunno what the devs are gonna do, if anything. I want the love spread to all alien units. Instead of having one trick. Pretty bland currently.
Really getting sad about this Onos situation. Everyone's like.. WINRATE! IT'S PRETTY EVEN! But what they don't understand is that it's an over reliance HUGE HUGE over reliance on Onos. I don't know what it means. Dunno what the devs are gonna do, if anything. I want the love spread to all alien units. Instead of having one trick. Pretty bland currently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's even because there are a lot of new people, and I see a lot of vets playing aliens A LOT. Once the skill level has averaged out some it should be pretty interesting to see how the split goes.
This guy gets it.
I did once exactly that (killing two CCs with a single onos while the exo train was away) and won the game.
Yeaaah...just hit the power in both (Since they're undefended) and once the Marines are killed off, you win.
<!--quoteo(post=2010774:date=Nov 5 2012, 03:10 AM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Nov 5 2012, 03:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeaaah...just hit the power in both (Since they're undefended) and once the Marines are killed off, you win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, if he had gone for the power, it wouldn't have been as easy of a win. By killing the CC's, he didn't need to kill the Marines to win, which would have been difficult because they were grouped up in a ball of death.
<!--quoteo(post=2010490:date=Nov 4 2012, 09:41 PM:name=Ansom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ansom @ Nov 4 2012, 09:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010490"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Almost every Alien form relies on hit and run. Yet, they're playing against a team with a command structure that encourages cooperation and sticking together. Almost every Alien form relies on a melee attack and an evasive maneuver. That's more difficult to pull off than pointing and shooting. What the hell do the Aliens have to deal with multiple enemies? What the hell do Aliens have to do with the turtling?
And then, you look at the Marines. They don't have to use a melee attack and evasive movement. They can just point and shoot and mow ###### down next to an armory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, Aliens have better hit and run, Marines have better concentrated force. The counter to marines grouping up excessively is to attack a different location on the map. Aliens can move throughout the map faster than marines can.
An example: I recently played a game where as aliens we had them down to two main bases, but they seemed to have deep pockets of resources, continuing to build and rebuild Exo's, and assaulting our hive repeatedly. As a team I coordinated our assault on their backline base. They beaconed back, so we retreated from that and resumed an assault on their forward base. They beaconed to that base, so we reversed our assault again. We took out their main power before they could beacon again to defend, and then easily cleaned up.
While the pubbie balance suffers from the "race to mass Onos/Exo", especially leaving Lurk & Fade somewhat useless, that tends to be the case with newbies and any RTS. (Starcraft newbs = mass Carrier, mass Battlecruiser, mass OMFGEVERYTHING zerg.) Newbies start with simple win tactics.
<b><!--coloro:#8B0000--><span style="color:#8B0000"><!--/coloro-->tl;dr: I hope wall-jumping can work for pros, Aliens must use large-scale flanking to beat Marine turtling/ball of death, balance Lurk/Fade/Onos<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
You guys make it that much easier to pub stomp marines as aliens.
Unless the aliens are stuck in one hive, and you own the entire map, you should never use Exo's in my opinion. One Onos can clear two marine CC's before an entire team of Exo's can clear two hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, I get incredibly frustrated when I see a proto lab being built and then JP is grayed out while dual is reasearching..... I just wanted to slap my ###### in the commanders face every time. Later you see all the marines on 1 side of the map while a single gorge clear the other side, lol.
Most people just want to jump straight in a shoot some stuff. I get it, it's fun. Just give it some time and more people will enjoy aliens.
Aliens require some thought behind it to play, you need to scout, harass, ambush, surprise, dodge well and know your lifeforms in synergy with your team.
Now to something different but very much related to this;
Temphage has to be the single most destructive person to the game on this forum. Never have I seen a more opinionated and less insightful person post this much
about balance which is the last area someone like that should even touch with a ten foot stick.
Why?
Well he proved that once again in this thread by saying that; "If the problem is that the aliens are too difficult, then the skill floor needs to come down."
This is the worst idea I've ever heard in a discussion about game development.
The skill roof should always be high, in fact, it could be much higher for some of the alien lifeforms.
I sincerely hope that what you're trying to say is that the initial skill needed should be lower.
This in turn is in my opinion a bad idea as well since aliens isn't that hard to learn.
I sincerely believe that the issue is that the new generation of PC gamers have been spoiled and don't enjoy a challenge as much as
gamers did back in the day. Here's the interesting part, this game is not made for people who don't want to improve and test themselves.
It's almost an old school multiplayer FPS game. New school means you have your hand held all the way, I don't like that.
That's why I play games like this instead of WoW, CoD, the sims and so on. I suggest you move back to one of those if you really don't want to learn how to play aliens.
I really don't want to flame people but this has gotten way out of hand.
Temphage, have you heard about the phenomena that negative people only see negative things?
Every post I've seen from you has either been negative feedback or has been claiming that everyone else is just saying negative things.
When the game was in beta, the amount of negative threads was miniscule compared to this. It's people that's the problem - not the game.
There are lots and lots of positive feedback since release as well but when it comes to this forum, certain people make it damn hard for it to shine through
since they flood it with negative stuff and whine.
The short answer to when is aliens being fixed in terms of being fun to play is; when you learn to play them.
This is the worst idea I've ever heard in a discussion about game development.
The <i><b>skill <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->roof<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b></i> should always be high, in fact, it could be much higher for some of the alien lifeforms.
I sincerely hope that what you're trying to say is that the initial skill needed should be lower.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're not on the same page. I agree with him. Aliens suck compared to Marines. They took the old Aliens and butchered them up into small pieces that now require additional hives and structures and research to obtain. Like I said above, the Marines start out good and get better. The Aliens begin the game gimped and have to be brought up to what they once were. ######'s sad.
And, since the difference in skill required to perform as an Alien versus a Marine is pretty significant, the latter easily snowball better. Most of the Alien forms are hit and run; taking out single targets and getting out. That's pretty damn powerful early on when people feel a little more adventurous and are less armored and armed, but what does it become later on when Marines stack up near a handful of Exosuits or ARCs? Being easier to play means more kills which means more resource which means simply out-researching Aliens. There's nothing fun at all about getting one-shot as a Skulk by someone you can seemingly bite for days and not take down.
The Aliens are reliant on the Onos to deal with late-game Marines with even the slightest coordination, because most of their classes are simply not fit for dealing with multiple enemies, and to make things worse? The reliance isn't even against organic units solely. Aliens can't siege Marine forward bases as well as Marines can siege Alien hives, yet it's not the Aliens that need to be countered for turtling. The Marines are the ultimate turtles with their armories, phase gates, sentry nests, and so on. Aliens are reliant on cheesing; rushing all-in with Onos to destroy a Command Center or waiting until the Marines go all in and hoping they can counter with lame ass BACKDOORING because they have nothing to progressively whittle down Marine installments.
What the hell do Aliens have that require Artillery fire, Grenade spam, Exosuits, and Flamethrowers? Whips and Hydras? It's not comparable to a Sentry nest, where Skulks, Fades, and the like are hard-pressed to get in and take them out while sustaining fire. Marines can corner Whips and Hydras or simply out range them without a problem. What a joke. The Aliens lack diversity. All of their roles are the same, and the roles that are different are so devalued and watered down from the original. The Gorge. He was such a valuable, useful unit in the original. He was my favorite. Now what is he good for? Healing people who already have regeneration or the mobility to head back to the Hive? Don't want to stick around waiting for the Gorge to spit on you because Marines with their 12 second sprint can easily catch up to you guys and destroy you.
Hydras? Clogs? You gotta be kidding me. You have to be a complete moron to die to Hydras, and Clogs provide nothing but a few seconds of annoyance for the Marine who has to hatchet through them. Bile Bomb is arguably the only good thing about NS2 Gorges. Their spit feels weird compared to the original, is bugged, and none of their projectiles can be seen and adjusted for when in Alien Vision, something mandatory given how dark most of the maps are. That's just gameplay alone. Don't get me started on how unoptimized the game is.
I honestly feel more and more like uninstalling. I'm not trying to be a ###### here. It's just that I see it as problematic.
Will people ever stop ###### about balance?
The real answer : no.
Definition of MISONEISM
: a hatred, fear, or intolerance of innovation or change
This isn't a patched NS1, it's a new game.
Needing 2 hives is a new way to play, just try it out before you go BAWWWWWWWWWWW I'M ANGRY AND SAD.
It forces aliens to actually take parts of the map instead of hive teleporting. Personally, I like it.
The same goes for the guy with the jetpacker comment. In NS1 the jetpacks worked differently and the leap and the blink worked differently.
You did all the thinking yourself without realizing it, you now can more realiably wait for them to run out of fuel and them kill them. Then do it!
Killing them is still the goal.
EnderA wrote;
"While the pubbie balance suffers from the "race to mass Onos/Exo", especially leaving Lurk & Fade somewhat useless, that tends to be the case with newbies and any RTS. (Starcraft newbs = mass Carrier, mass Battlecruiser, mass OMFGEVERYTHING zerg.) Newbies start with simple win tactics."
This is very relevant. The metagame on public servers right now is dominated by what's easy to come up with, easy to use and easy to win with.
That's onos egg spam. It's more difficult to use teamplay to have fades, lerks and gorges be your force of attack and win with it but it's not really worse.
It will be used, in due time.
The short answer to when is aliens being fixed in terms of being fun to play is; when you learn to play them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. A thousand times this.
What new players, and players not used to playing aliens need to understand is that this game is not a current-generation shooter in some regards. You actually need to LEARN how to play the game, instead of having the game play itself for you. I know, I know, it's an uncomfortable idea for current-gen shooter fans, but it is still a fact.
Marines, arguably, are a lot simpler to pick up and play for a new player, due to the FPS mechanics that most players will experience, and have experienced in the past.
The aliens, on the other hand, play differently, and requires other things from the players, as have been pointed out. What drew me to the aliens, besides the obvious fact that you can play your wildest Aliens® fantasies and the kneechomping mechanics, was the fact that it felt fresh and new, compared to the cookie-cutter brand of shooters out there.
When first playing the skulk, I sucked. Bad. But I never thought "boy, this game is so hard, better get the devs to nerf and buff everything to hell and back just because I feel uncomfortable as a Skulk right now.". Instead, I practiced and got better. Nowadays, aliens are by far my favourite race to play, just because I put a lot of effort into getting better at it.
Saying that a game will suffer, because it's harder to learn than most games just shows a lack of respect to dedicated gamers. Sure, the 12-year old CoD-kids will ###### and moan that the game is too hard or that feature X, Y or Z is over/underpowered, but then again, they always will, regardless of what's being done.
"True" gamers will realize that Aliens (and marines, to some extent) is something new and different, and man up to the task of actually learning to play the races.
In closing, I have to agree with brainmaggot that the amount of negativity coming out of some members on this forum is staggering, and MUCH, MUCH more detrimental to the game as a whole compared to percieved "boringness" of aliens, or balance issues that will be ironed out when the new players experience new tactics and strategies.
tl;dr - L2P and see your game experience become a whole lot more enjoyable. I hate to be that guy, but so much whine on this forum can easily be countered with "L2P."
For everyone who is still ranting on about balance being perfect:
We are not saying aliens cant win, but that aliens HAVE to use the same strategies each game(TRes onos and Crag/Shift hive first) to win (balanced (evenly skilled teams)) games. This is due to the majority of the Alien tech tree being limp wrist-ed and the early Onos with Team res being stupidly powerful and thus a crutch to prevent aliens from losing.
The attempts to "balance" aliens are not to make them more powerful but to nerf some aspects (eg. early onos) and buff others (eg. shade tree & fade) thus creating and even distribution of balance within the alien tech tree as opposed to some elements being very powerful and others being fairly pointless.
Then suddenly it's the most reasonable way of facing the "arguments" of the people who claim that.
Do you really think that players have a thorough understanding of the game balance as a whole after a maximum of 5 days of playing?
I don't.
Fine. Let's all start calling them "Individuals who are used to having their hand held while playing, leaving them unable to cope with challenges and new obstacles in game. This inexperience with challenges leads to anger and resentment towards the game for being too hard, instead of actually learning to play the game with the tools given."
or IWAUTHTHHWPLTUTCWCANOIGTIWCLTAARTTGFBTHIOALTPTGWTTG-kids, for short.
I agree, that's a whole lot more reasonable term to use. Thanks, Ansom.
I don't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played the Closed Beta for the last god knows how many months.
Different playstyles is fine, but there's no denying that non-commanding marines enjoy a pretty simple, straightforward life.
But I'm also one of those guys who cares more about a game being interesting and fun rather than how much TEH SKILLZ is takes to play. I grew out of FPS-gaming ######-waving contests a decade ago, and I prefer seeing interesting new concepts and large amounts of depth, rather than minimalist design simply to try to make it appeal to people with dumb acronyms in brackets at the beginning of their names.