<!--quoteo(post=2010402:date=Nov 4 2012, 04:23 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Nov 4 2012, 04:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010402"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically it would create a situation where the comms would spam NPC units: drifters, whips, macs, arcs. People don't like fighting spam and they don't like fighting NPC units. The current system gives the comms a viable alternative to those NPC units. Importantly, making Onos eggs more expensive is only effective up until the point that the comm would prefer to spend that tRes on <i>anything</i> else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and by that point, there's no reason to have that functionality in the game because it's beyond last resort.
Egg drops right now are a big issue I think. Five crags or whips is the cost of an onos. Three crags or whips and you have a fade. I'm starting to wonder if they are too cheap or available too early.
Obviously Aliens get less res in the competitive meta than in the pub meta but that makes all but the most necessary crags, shades and shifts even more difficult to justify. In a competitive meta I imagine whips are simply absurd given their limitations and bugginess regarding knockback on grenades.
Honestly, I'm not sure what should be done about all of this. Forward bases are fun to set up but in a serious game I could never justify such expense over one or two more Onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2010402:date=Nov 5 2012, 12:23 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Nov 5 2012, 12:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010402"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically it would create a situation where the comms would spam NPC units: drifters, whips, macs, arcs. People don't like fighting spam and they don't like fighting NPC units. The current system gives the comms a viable alternative to those NPC units. Importantly, making Onos eggs more expensive is only effective up until the point that the comm would prefer to spend that tRes on <i>anything</i> else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Correction: They could spend it on buffs and comm effects. Marines have the option to drop exo's or spend res on nanoshield/medpacks. Currently enzyme and bone wall are sorta not viable because it stops you getting more OP onos eggs... Once these OP onos eggs are removed (till hive 3) the comm wont "require" to drop onos eggs in order to win (Because <b>hopefully</b> the rest of the alien tech tree will be fixed) and thus he can spend his res on other elements of the alien techtree without it essentially being res wasted that could have been used on OP onos eggs.
<!--quoteo(post=2010407:date=Nov 5 2012, 12:26 AM:name=beyond.wudge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (beyond.wudge @ Nov 5 2012, 12:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Egg drops right now are a big issue I think. Five crags or whips is the cost of an onos. Three crags or whips and you have a fade. I'm starting to wonder if they are too cheap or available too early.
Obviously Aliens get less res in the competitive meta than in the pub meta but that makes all but the most necessary crags, shades and shifts even more difficult to justify. In a competitive meta I imagine whips are simply absurd given their limitations and bugginess regarding knockback on grenades.
Honestly, I'm not sure what should be done about all of this. Forward bases are fun to set up but in a serious game I could never justify such expense over one or two more Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with onos is that once it is made to 3rd hive it will become apparent just how weak aliens are without the tres onos. Without tres onos fades will be even more required... this will mean more people will have to fade leaving less people to save for pres onos... This is why the aliens need to be fixed before/at the same time onos is made 3rd hive.
Tres onos is currently a crutch for the alien balance, it needs to be removed and the rest of the alien tech tree needs to be fixed.
I'm only new to this game, but this egg drops thing does seem like a big balance issue.
Currently, the aliens really need the Onos as a tanking unit. They don't really have anything else that can directly engage the humans and survive. But the fact that the commander can drop one super early is game breaking. Like everyone else has said, it means that the aliens can pop out their best unit in a little over 5 minutes. So I agree that a solution needs to be found. Something like a . . . baby Onos maybe?
This game does have a lot of potential though, so I'm going to do like the OP and think about ways to fix this and some other issue, and post it up later. Just got to contemplate it a bit more before I post.
Totally not the right solution... But totally ###### want this in the game NOW!!!! Imagine if for the first 45 seconds you were onos you had to "mature"? Imagine starting off at 66% health, 66% damage and slowly growing up to 100% size and 100% dmg? xD
Lolz...
But anyway... honestly. They just need to fix fade, aliens shouldn't have a life form capable of cutting swathes through multiple un-upgraded marines by 5 mins into the games. Same way Marines shouldn't have Duel Exo 5 mins into the game... Leave the epic Exo-Oni duels for late game, give us chance to enjoy Fades and Lerks early game.
<!--quoteo(post=2010002:date=Nov 4 2012, 06:47 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Nov 4 2012, 06:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about this idea for the onos problem, Schimmel.
+no hive requirements for any lifeform +requires an alien to evolve into the lifeform via pres before allowing a tres version
This solves: a) The 6-7 minute onos which is incredibly broken in competitive games. b) removes hive reqs for tres so aliens with 200 res can still drop onos eggs for a comeback even if they lose second hive late in the game. c) forces a natural tech path through the lifeform evolutions -- early game skulk into lerk/gorge -> mid game lerk/fade -> late game fade/onos.
The current onos is very unfun in competitive games because:
+little individual skill involved for marines (compare shooting an onos to shooting a fade, skulk or lerk) +huge sense of hoplessness for marines (it doesn't matter how well you play if you have 3 or less marines in an area and an onos walks up -- you're dead, even to an average onos) +sense of relying on a crutch for aliens (aliens don't feel like they have choice. It's try to hold as many RTs -> 2nd hive -> onos/leap. The Onos comes out 50% sooner than your 1-2 fades. And the onos comes out about when lerks can come out in probably around 1/3 of the games I play.)
and most importantly: +games are basically won or lost before the onos comes out. Marines are on a very short clock (6-10 minutes typically). If marines don't win or deal huge amounts of RT damage before this two hive onos comes out, the game is over. This means that marines, against an even alien team, must dominate that even alien team early game or they will lose at the 6-10m mark. All it really takes for aliens to win at this point is holding 3 RTs, holding 2nd hive, and not losing to map design (easy arc places on tram, or jp/gl in cargo).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2010025:date=Nov 4 2012, 07:07 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Nov 4 2012, 07:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010025"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i was talking about removing dropping life forms / equipment, and instead have the option to convert t.res to p.res -> works for all players counts, just need a suitable ratio. asuming you have a 5:1 ratio: you can boost the p.res income of all players (not a bad thing!) but you would need to sacrifice a lot of tech or other structures. as long as the ratio fits, there will be a real decision to make. you can go for early lerk rush, by sacrificing the whole economy. you could get early onos, but that would be insane expensive (need to dump in at least 200 team res to afford ~7 minute hive 1 onos). a problem this system would cause, is that onos has no tier 2. in ns1 this was stomp, and while hive 1 onos was "ok" somewhat, playing without stomp made him very vulnerable. so, unless the tiers are worked on and completed / "fixed", such a t.res conversion wont solve the problem (just shifts it)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both great ways to go and as Rant said, anything is better than now.
<!--quoteo(post=2010580:date=Nov 4 2012, 10:10 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 4 2012, 10:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->instead of straight converting t-res to p-res, we should bring back the upgrades to extractors/harvesters that we had in alpha.
except have the effect be temporary- i.e. spend 5 t-res on a harvester to double p-res output for 1 minute, something like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's actually a pretty cool idea, I know as aliens I'd love to be able to put some temporary buffs on those RT's when there's a pesky marine shiving it in my hive! Sadly though, I usually have a massive lead over marines on capping RT's. It's absurdly easy as aliens to take RT points when marines aren't paying attention.
At the end of the day though, any kind of buff's to alien/marine RT's would probably be imbalanced as hell. I know electric RT's were B.S. in NS1, and I never want to see them come back. It made end-game Skulks completely useless at harassing RT's. I guess it would give people a reason to go lerk, but realistically a lerk would take <i>forever</i> to range a RT to zero. Without acid rocket, the only viable anti-structure unit is the Gorge and the Onos. (Maybe electric nodes would work better in NS2. Remove the power node, remove the electric shield? Re-research it if the node is saved and power removed?)
Also, I think the third upgrade for Skulks needs to be Focus. Xenocide is the second biggest joke in the game. The only thing left to upgrade when I get to Xeno is Vortex, and honestly when I buy them it's an afterthought and simply because I have more t.res than god with nothing more useful than whips to build. If you make a player literally kill themselves with an attack, make the attack something that actually does something. Needing a whole team of skulks to suicide bomb just to scratch a single marines armor is just stupid considering the long wait time to spawn on aliens team. If not focus, than something else or a xeno that does damage. My thought would be to allow Skulks to 'stick' to marines like walls while using Xeno. If they don't get you off them before you explode, you both die. That would be the counter to shotguns, back-clinging skulks...the vent comments alone for panicing Marines would be worth it. (You should, of course, alert the soon-to-be-deceased that he has a time bomb gripping his buttocks for maximum effect and general fairness.)
Alternatively, perhaps the third upgrade should be something along the lines of the the 'pounce' attack the Hunters had in Left 4 Dead. Pins the marine and renders him helpless, and slowly does damage until the marine is dead. Gives his buddies a chance to free him by blowing an easily shot skulk off their mate, but take too long and the other skulks will lock you out of the game until you die. Even I admit, this ability is probably too strong especially early game, but as a tier 3 ability that requires all three hives, it seems kind of fair since a lot of the alien team will be more interested in higher life forms by that stage of the game. Maybe as a caveat to the leap attack it should make aliens do damage to their buddy if they try to attack the marine? Just saying there are some possibilities in that vein of thought.
<!--quoteo(post=2009965:date=Nov 5 2012, 06:07 AM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Nov 5 2012, 06:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->doesnt mean that i will give up on this, and feedback is definitely welcome here!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <u><b>Feedback on onos egg and alien upgrade scaling.</b></u>
<b>Onos egg problem</b> The way i see it, tres scaling will never work for tres dumps without some convoluted system such as tres to pres, inflated tres costs, no tres lifeform until pres lifeform, or some mechanic that unhealthily relies on aoe. I think we need to accept that balance of power and how the game is played changes for different player numbers and that this is ok and to be expected (gl, spore, gorge stacking, med/ammo drop viability). e.g. 2v2 sc2 plays very differently to 1v1 and a mechanic/buildorder is not automatically bad if it works for 1v1, but not 2v2 vice versa.
So while we can never really attack the underlying problem, we can always implement measures that directly improve the issue without simply being bandaid fixes. a)Get rid of rfd. It's hurting pres buildup of active players and delaying pres lifeforms far too much overall, which is a big reason why viable alien strategies are so centred around tres lifeforms. b)Move onos egg to 3rd hive. Whether or not this solves the underlying issue of 'tres scaling', this is a required change that justifies any balance shakeup to alien early/mid game e.g. faster blink. Onos egg as a 2nd hive opportunity cost is hurting build variety way too much.
<u><b>Upgrades and alien scaling</b></u> <b>Weapon level</b> Technically, aliens scale better than marines here. w0 vs vanilla skulk = 9 bullets w3 vs cara skulk = 10 bullets
<b>Armour level</b> Technically, aliens have no scaling ability here. Number of bites increases irregardless of glancing bite. A simple yet effective solution is to add focus to the shade tree. Now you scale with marine armour levels and all three tech paths are long term viable, which is essentially the crux of first hive tech choice (tech tree <b>parity</b> is not so relatively important). One simple change and you address both marine armour scaling and shade viability.
<b>Celerity</b> Would like to see the removal of bonus loss on attack and taking damage. This is an archaic attachment that no longer fits its design goal (combat maneuverability, as opposed to moving between hives very fast).
<!--quoteo(post=2010002:date=Nov 4 2012, 09:47 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Nov 4 2012, 09:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about this idea for the onos problem, Schimmel.
+no hive requirements for any lifeform +requires an alien to evolve into the lifeform via pres before allowing a tres version
This solves: a) The 6-7 minute onos which is incredibly broken in competitive games. b) removes hive reqs for tres so aliens with 200 res can still drop onos eggs for a comeback even if they lose second hive late in the game. c) forces a natural tech path through the lifeform evolutions -- early game skulk into lerk/gorge -> mid game lerk/fade -> late game fade/onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like this idea. It is simple and doesn't restrict the tactics as much. Please make it so!
<!--quoteo(post=2010054:date=Nov 4 2012, 10:38 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 4 2012, 10:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You mean something like advanced, deep evolution trees that allow individual aliens to personalize their playstyle, so if marines are going with flamethrowers you can evolve flame-resistant carapace, like one would expect a rapidly-mutating lifeform in a game called Natural Selection - a play on Darwin's theory of evolution - to perform?
<!--quoteo(post=2010902:date=Nov 5 2012, 03:36 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 5 2012, 03:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010902"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a)Get rid of rfd. It's hurting pres buildup of active players and delaying pres lifeforms far too much overall, which is a big reason why viable alien strategies are so centred around tres lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah I don't get why skulks are punished so heavily for being the basic lifeform that's expected to die. it ends up adding up at the most horrible times of the game. <!--quoteo(post=2010902:date=Nov 5 2012, 03:36 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 5 2012, 03:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010902"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Celerity</b> Would like to see the removal of bonus loss on attack and taking damage. This is an archaic attachment that no longer fits its design goal (combat maneuverability, as opposed to moving between hives very fast).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know why this is even a feature? D: doesn't this go against "Slowdown with Carapace removed (drawbacks are implicit in choices, not within traits themselves)" from the changelog?
legit idea from GORGEous. that would solve a large number of problems with the gameplay in NS2 competitively, especially the part about the defined early / mid / late game.
Was gonna make a new thread but sorta decided it was pointless...
Could I get some feedback on this suggestion please? :)
It is of <i>my opinion</i> that <b>all</b> upgrades should be <u>equally</u> appealing. That is why I would like to see most of them tweaked to be as appealing as they could be.
Currently I am pretty sure most will agree that a list of preference is pretty much:
That is why I propose all are given buffs to "bring them in-line" with Carapace.
<b>Carapace</b> - Left as it is, this is the benchmark we aspire all upgrades to be.
<b>Celerity</b> - Let it work in combat, now its perfect.
<b>Adrenaline</b> - 150% regen, 150% pool.
<b>Silence + Camouflage Combined to create Stealth</b> - Silence when running, cloak when walking (as camo does now) cannot be ever seen on obs/ping motion tracking. (Obs + ping still make you visable) (Holy hell if people say Shade isn't viable as a first hive now...)
<b>Regeneration</b> - I honestly think this is only so low down due to carapace being so good, I think Regen should be boosted to work in combat and work slightly faster out of combat as well.
This leaves us with 1 extra slot for Shade upgrades:
<b>Focus</b> - 2x dmg, 0.33% attack speed.
...
This would leave me taking: Skulk - Carapace, Celerity, Focus. Gorge - Regen, Adrenaline, Stealth Lerk - Regen, Celerity/Adrenaline, Focus Fade - Carapace, Celerity/Adrenaline, Focus Onos - Carapace/Regen, Celerity/Adrenaline, Stealth
Opinions?
If this was to be combined with the new implementations of: Hypermutation Feign Death New DC upgrade
We could have some reallllly good customization combinations. Hypermutation, Stealth, Regen for the ultimate: hit, run, re-heal, re-evolve, re-hit? :D
Carapace isn't used because it's good, it's used because it's the only bandaid aliens get to counter the otherwise completely uncounterable marine firepower upgrades. Realistically the bonus you get from carapace isn't even that impressive.
"Good" to me implies that marines go "DAMMIT THIS SKULK WON'T DIE WTF" and worry about carapace. Not... just shoot two more bullets and kill him. Most marines probably don't even notice because aliens die so very quickly, whereas every alien knows when the marines have armor upgrades, as it increases the TTK against them by a full second or two, requiring SEVERAL more attacks.
<!--quoteo(post=2010954:date=Nov 5 2012, 01:00 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 5 2012, 01:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010954"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Carapace isn't used because it's good, it's used because it's the only bandaid aliens get to counter the otherwise completely uncounterable marine firepower upgrades. Realistically the bonus you get from carapace isn't even that impressive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So 800 extra HP on an onos isn't the reason its used?... Pretty sure that's why its used. Doesn't matter if other problems are broken, they will be fixed also... :p
<!--quoteo(post=2010957:date=Nov 5 2012, 01:02 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 5 2012, 01:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010957"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So 800 extra HP on an onos isn't the reason its used?... Pretty sure that's why its used.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What about on everything else?
It'd be nice if someone had the raw numbers so we could chart out exactly how effective carapace is. I'm fairly certain that no carapace vs. W0 has longer survivability than carapace vs. W3.
<!--quoteo(post=2010960:date=Nov 5 2012, 01:03 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 5 2012, 01:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010960"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It'd be nice if someone had the raw numbers so we could chart out exactly how effective carapace is. I'm fairly certain that no carapace vs. W0 has longer survivability than carapace vs. W3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No upgrades means 10 shots to kill if the skulk's passive regen heals him 1hp+ during the fight, 9 otherwise.
------------------------
Cara skulk is 70hp 30A = 130 hp
LMG level 3 is 13 damage per shot
11 shots to kill if passive regen heals 1hp+ during the fight, 10 otherwise.
So it takes 1 more bullet to kill a cara skulk with weapons 3 than it does to kill a plain skulk with weapons 0. I got these numbers from the wiki, they could be wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think more people would like to see balance shift to where an Alien Commander could drop in Lerk and Fade eggs and not get yelled at by their team immediately for wasting res
Maybe dropping lifeform eggs should require hive population like drifters do or Maybe drifters should have a role in generating advanced lifeform eggs
Having a different Tres vs. Pres cost to dropping in equipment is another, but less favorable option
Also why is Marine Commander unable to drop in a double exo?
<!--quoteo(post=2010986:date=Nov 5 2012, 01:17 PM:name=MaximumSquid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ Nov 5 2012, 01:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010986"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also why is Marine Commander unable to drop in a double exo?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No idea but I think its on my list... Might request it is only drop-able with 3 tech chairs! :D
<!--quoteo(post=2010960:date=Nov 5 2012, 01:03 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 5 2012, 01:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010960"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about on everything else?
It'd be nice if someone had the raw numbers so we could chart out exactly how effective carapace is. I'm fairly certain that no carapace vs. W0 has longer survivability than carapace vs. W3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulk: 70hp, 10 Armour = 90 effective hp
LMG: 10 damage per shot
No upgrades means 10 shots to kill if the skulk's passive regen heals him 1hp+ during the fight, 9 otherwise.
------------------------
Cara skulk is 70hp 30A = 130 hp
LMG level 3 is 13 damage per shot
11 shots to kill if passive regen heals 1hp+ during the fight, 10 otherwise.
So it takes 1 more bullet to kill a cara skulk with weapons 3 than it does to kill a plain skulk with weapons 0. I got these numbers from the wiki, they could be wrong.
re: the passive regen - fairly certain you don't regen if you're doing anything more complicated than moving. Attacking and being injured disable it, same as celerity.
<!--quoteo(post=2011097:date=Nov 5 2012, 02:50 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 5 2012, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011097"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->re: the passive regen - fairly certain you don't regen if you're doing anything more complicated than moving. Attacking and being injured disable it, same as celerity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually no, I am almost certain passive regen still works 100% of the time... I have often gone into fights with exactly 100% hp and left them with exactly 1hp (even as an onos, but only once) and this can only be possible (or so extremely unlikely (if we rule out flame throwers, which there wernt any in the fights I am talking about) that it can be attributed to nothing else) due to passive regen.
<!--quoteo(post=2011098:date=Nov 5 2012, 02:52 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 5 2012, 02:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011098"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually no, I am almost certain passive regen still works 100% of the time... I have often gone into fights with exactly 100% hp and left them with exactly 1hp (even as an onos, but only once) and this can only be possible (or so extremely unlikely (if we rule out flame throwers, which there wernt any in the fights I am talking about) that it can be attributed to nothing else) due to passive regen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know. I was chewing on a power node and my health most certainly was not regenerating in the process.
After you take or deal damage, you do not passively regenerate for ~4 seconds. If you attack but aren't dealing damage (ie: just biting at a wall), you will start regenerating.
But taking damage most certainly arrests the passive regen, and doing damage does as well.
You can easily test it yourself with an Onos and a sentry. I ran around stomping all the marine structures to death after I dealt some damage and after 20 seconds I hadn't regenerated anything. I stopped and 4 seconds later it kicked in.
<!--quoteo(post=2011150:date=Nov 5 2012, 03:26 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 5 2012, 03:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just tested it in-game.
After you take or deal damage, you do not passively regenerate for ~4 seconds. If you attack but aren't dealing damage (ie: just biting at a wall), you will start regenerating.
But taking damage most certainly arrests the passive regen, and doing damage does as well.
You can easily test it yourself with an Onos and a sentry. I ran around stomping all the marine structures to death after I dealt some damage and after 20 seconds I hadn't regenerated anything. I stopped and 4 seconds later it kicked in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice to know.
<!--quoteo(post=2011194:date=Nov 5 2012, 03:59 PM:name=MaximumSquid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ Nov 5 2012, 03:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011194"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you can't regen while killing extractors or nodes alone in a room is beyond bad<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2009887:date=Nov 4 2012, 01:19 PM:name=Radiocage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Radiocage @ Nov 4 2012, 01:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009887"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't help but feel like all of these things would make the aliens win more than they already do (which is<b> 53%</b> of the time in 228.)
I do not understand why people think the aliens never win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We can offset this imbalance by not requiring marine resnodes to take twice as long to build as they did in NS1 any more. Because sitting and holding 'e' for long periods of time is the most fun way we can keep marines from being overpowered, right?
Comments
and by that point, there's no reason to have that functionality in the game because it's beyond last resort.
So it'll remain a problem regardless.
Obviously Aliens get less res in the competitive meta than in the pub meta but that makes all but the most necessary crags, shades and shifts even more difficult to justify. In a competitive meta I imagine whips are simply absurd given their limitations and bugginess regarding knockback on grenades.
Honestly, I'm not sure what should be done about all of this. Forward bases are fun to set up but in a serious game I could never justify such expense over one or two more Onos.
Correction: They could spend it on buffs and comm effects. Marines have the option to drop exo's or spend res on nanoshield/medpacks.
Currently enzyme and bone wall are sorta not viable because it stops you getting more OP onos eggs... Once these OP onos eggs are removed (till hive 3) the comm wont "require" to drop onos eggs in order to win (Because <b>hopefully</b> the rest of the alien tech tree will be fixed) and thus he can spend his res on other elements of the alien techtree without it essentially being res wasted that could have been used on OP onos eggs.
<!--quoteo(post=2010407:date=Nov 5 2012, 12:26 AM:name=beyond.wudge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (beyond.wudge @ Nov 5 2012, 12:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Egg drops right now are a big issue I think. Five crags or whips is the cost of an onos. Three crags or whips and you have a fade. I'm starting to wonder if they are too cheap or available too early.
Obviously Aliens get less res in the competitive meta than in the pub meta but that makes all but the most necessary crags, shades and shifts even more difficult to justify. In a competitive meta I imagine whips are simply absurd given their limitations and bugginess regarding knockback on grenades.
Honestly, I'm not sure what should be done about all of this. Forward bases are fun to set up but in a serious game I could never justify such expense over one or two more Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with onos is that once it is made to 3rd hive it will become apparent just how weak aliens are without the tres onos.
Without tres onos fades will be even more required... this will mean more people will have to fade leaving less people to save for pres onos...
This is why the aliens need to be fixed before/at the same time onos is made 3rd hive.
Tres onos is currently a crutch for the alien balance, it needs to be removed and the rest of the alien tech tree needs to be fixed.
Currently, the aliens really need the Onos as a tanking unit. They don't really have anything else that can directly engage the humans and survive. But the fact that the commander can drop one super early is game breaking. Like everyone else has said, it means that the aliens can pop out their best unit in a little over 5 minutes. So I agree that a solution needs to be found. Something like a . . . baby Onos maybe?
This game does have a lot of potential though, so I'm going to do like the OP and think about ways to fix this and some other issue, and post it up later. Just got to contemplate it a bit more before I post.
Totally not the right solution... But totally ###### want this in the game NOW!!!!
Imagine if for the first 45 seconds you were onos you had to "mature"?
Imagine starting off at 66% health, 66% damage and slowly growing up to 100% size and 100% dmg? xD
Lolz...
But anyway... honestly.
They just need to fix fade, aliens shouldn't have a life form capable of cutting swathes through multiple un-upgraded marines by 5 mins into the games. Same way Marines shouldn't have Duel Exo 5 mins into the game... Leave the epic Exo-Oni duels for late game, give us chance to enjoy Fades and Lerks early game.
+no hive requirements for any lifeform
+requires an alien to evolve into the lifeform via pres before allowing a tres version
This solves: a) The 6-7 minute onos which is incredibly broken in competitive games. b) removes hive reqs for tres so aliens with 200 res can still drop onos eggs for a comeback even if they lose second hive late in the game. c) forces a natural tech path through the lifeform evolutions -- early game skulk into lerk/gorge -> mid game lerk/fade -> late game fade/onos.
The current onos is very unfun in competitive games because:
+little individual skill involved for marines (compare shooting an onos to shooting a fade, skulk or lerk)
+huge sense of hoplessness for marines (it doesn't matter how well you play if you have 3 or less marines in an area and an onos walks up -- you're dead, even to an average onos)
+sense of relying on a crutch for aliens (aliens don't feel like they have choice. It's try to hold as many RTs -> 2nd hive -> onos/leap. The Onos comes out 50% sooner than your 1-2 fades. And the onos comes out about when lerks can come out in probably around 1/3 of the games I play.)
and most importantly:
+games are basically won or lost before the onos comes out. Marines are on a very short clock (6-10 minutes typically). If marines don't win or deal huge amounts of RT damage before this two hive onos comes out, the game is over. This means that marines, against an even alien team, must dominate that even alien team early game or they will lose at the 6-10m mark. All it really takes for aliens to win at this point is holding 3 RTs, holding 2nd hive, and not losing to map design (easy arc places on tram, or jp/gl in cargo).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2010025:date=Nov 4 2012, 07:07 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Nov 4 2012, 07:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010025"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i was talking about removing dropping life forms / equipment, and instead have the option to convert t.res to p.res -> works for all players counts, just need a suitable ratio. asuming you have a 5:1 ratio: you can boost the p.res income of all players (not a bad thing!) but you would need to sacrifice a lot of tech or other structures. as long as the ratio fits, there will be a real decision to make. you can go for early lerk rush, by sacrificing the whole economy. you could get early onos, but that would be insane expensive (need to dump in at least 200 team res to afford ~7 minute hive 1 onos). a problem this system would cause, is that onos has no tier 2. in ns1 this was stomp, and while hive 1 onos was "ok" somewhat, playing without stomp made him very vulnerable. so, unless the tiers are worked on and completed / "fixed", such a t.res conversion wont solve the problem (just shifts it)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both great ways to go and as Rant said, anything is better than now.
@OP i agree with most everything you suggest!
except have the effect be temporary- i.e. spend 5 t-res on a harvester to double p-res output for 1 minute, something like that.
except have the effect be temporary- i.e. spend 5 t-res on a harvester to double p-res output for 1 minute, something like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's actually a pretty cool idea, I know as aliens I'd love to be able to put some temporary buffs on those RT's when there's a pesky marine shiving it in my hive! Sadly though, I usually have a massive lead over marines on capping RT's. It's absurdly easy as aliens to take RT points when marines aren't paying attention.
At the end of the day though, any kind of buff's to alien/marine RT's would probably be imbalanced as hell. I know electric RT's were B.S. in NS1, and I never want to see them come back. It made end-game Skulks completely useless at harassing RT's. I guess it would give people a reason to go lerk, but realistically a lerk would take <i>forever</i> to range a RT to zero. Without acid rocket, the only viable anti-structure unit is the Gorge and the Onos. (Maybe electric nodes would work better in NS2. Remove the power node, remove the electric shield? Re-research it if the node is saved and power removed?)
Also, I think the third upgrade for Skulks needs to be Focus. Xenocide is the second biggest joke in the game. The only thing left to upgrade when I get to Xeno is Vortex, and honestly when I buy them it's an afterthought and simply because I have more t.res than god with nothing more useful than whips to build. If you make a player literally kill themselves with an attack, make the attack something that actually does something. Needing a whole team of skulks to suicide bomb just to scratch a single marines armor is just stupid considering the long wait time to spawn on aliens team. If not focus, than something else or a xeno that does damage. My thought would be to allow Skulks to 'stick' to marines like walls while using Xeno. If they don't get you off them before you explode, you both die. That would be the counter to shotguns, back-clinging skulks...the vent comments alone for panicing Marines would be worth it. (You should, of course, alert the soon-to-be-deceased that he has a time bomb gripping his buttocks for maximum effect and general fairness.)
Alternatively, perhaps the third upgrade should be something along the lines of the the 'pounce' attack the Hunters had in Left 4 Dead. Pins the marine and renders him helpless, and slowly does damage until the marine is dead. Gives his buddies a chance to free him by blowing an easily shot skulk off their mate, but take too long and the other skulks will lock you out of the game until you die. Even I admit, this ability is probably too strong especially early game, but as a tier 3 ability that requires all three hives, it seems kind of fair since a lot of the alien team will be more interested in higher life forms by that stage of the game. Maybe as a caveat to the leap attack it should make aliens do damage to their buddy if they try to attack the marine? Just saying there are some possibilities in that vein of thought.
<u><b>Feedback on onos egg and alien upgrade scaling.</b></u>
<b>Onos egg problem</b>
The way i see it, tres scaling will never work for tres dumps without some convoluted system such as tres to pres, inflated tres costs, no tres lifeform until pres lifeform, or some mechanic that unhealthily relies on aoe. I think we need to accept that balance of power and how the game is played changes for different player numbers and that this is ok and to be expected (gl, spore, gorge stacking, med/ammo drop viability). e.g. 2v2 sc2 plays very differently to 1v1 and a mechanic/buildorder is not automatically bad if it works for 1v1, but not 2v2 vice versa.
So while we can never really attack the underlying problem, we can always implement measures that directly improve the issue without simply being bandaid fixes.
a)Get rid of rfd. It's hurting pres buildup of active players and delaying pres lifeforms far too much overall, which is a big reason why viable alien strategies are so centred around tres lifeforms.
b)Move onos egg to 3rd hive. Whether or not this solves the underlying issue of 'tres scaling', this is a required change that justifies any balance shakeup to alien early/mid game e.g. faster blink. Onos egg as a 2nd hive opportunity cost is hurting build variety way too much.
<u><b>Upgrades and alien scaling</b></u>
<b>Weapon level</b>
Technically, aliens scale better than marines here.
w0 vs vanilla skulk = 9 bullets
w3 vs cara skulk = 10 bullets
<b>Armour level</b>
Technically, aliens have no scaling ability here. Number of bites increases irregardless of glancing bite.
A simple yet effective solution is to add focus to the shade tree. Now you scale with marine armour levels and all three tech paths are long term viable, which is essentially the crux of first hive tech choice (tech tree <b>parity</b> is not so relatively important). One simple change and you address both marine armour scaling and shade viability.
<b>Celerity</b>
Would like to see the removal of bonus loss on attack and taking damage. This is an archaic attachment that no longer fits its design goal (combat maneuverability, as opposed to moving between hives very fast).
Thank you, I forgot this one... adding it to OP.
+no hive requirements for any lifeform
+requires an alien to evolve into the lifeform via pres before allowing a tres version
This solves: a) The 6-7 minute onos which is incredibly broken in competitive games. b) removes hive reqs for tres so aliens with 200 res can still drop onos eggs for a comeback even if they lose second hive late in the game. c) forces a natural tech path through the lifeform evolutions -- early game skulk into lerk/gorge -> mid game lerk/fade -> late game fade/onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like this idea. It is simple and doesn't restrict the tactics as much. Please make it so!
<!--quoteo(post=2010054:date=Nov 4 2012, 10:38 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 4 2012, 10:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You mean something like advanced, deep evolution trees that allow individual aliens to personalize their playstyle, so if marines are going with flamethrowers you can evolve flame-resistant carapace, like one would expect a rapidly-mutating lifeform in a game called Natural Selection - a play on Darwin's theory of evolution - to perform?
*Cough* <a href="http://i.imgur.com/T8Y07.png" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/T8Y07.png</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this are some very good ideas too!
yeah I don't get why skulks are punished so heavily for being the basic lifeform that's expected to die. it ends up adding up at the most horrible times of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2010902:date=Nov 5 2012, 03:36 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 5 2012, 03:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010902"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Celerity</b>
Would like to see the removal of bonus loss on attack and taking damage. This is an archaic attachment that no longer fits its design goal (combat maneuverability, as opposed to moving between hives very fast).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know why this is even a feature? D:
doesn't this go against "Slowdown with Carapace removed (drawbacks are implicit in choices, not within traits themselves)" from the changelog?
legit idea from GORGEous. that would solve a large number of problems with the gameplay in NS2 competitively, especially the part about the defined early / mid / late game.
Could I get some feedback on this suggestion please? :)
It is of <i>my opinion</i> that <b>all</b> upgrades should be <u>equally</u> appealing.
That is why I would like to see most of them tweaked to be as appealing as they could be.
Currently I am pretty sure most will agree that a list of preference is pretty much:
Carapace
Celerity
Adrenaline
Silence
Regeneration
Camouflage
That is why I propose all are given buffs to "bring them in-line" with Carapace.
<b>Carapace</b> - Left as it is, this is the benchmark we aspire all upgrades to be.
<b>Celerity</b> - Let it work in combat, now its perfect.
<b>Adrenaline</b> - 150% regen, 150% pool.
<b>Silence + Camouflage Combined to create Stealth</b> - Silence when running, cloak when walking (as camo does now) cannot be ever seen on obs/ping motion tracking. (Obs + ping still make you visable) (Holy hell if people say Shade isn't viable as a first hive now...)
<b>Regeneration</b> - I honestly think this is only so low down due to carapace being so good, I think Regen should be boosted to work in combat and work slightly faster out of combat as well.
This leaves us with 1 extra slot for Shade upgrades:
<b>Focus</b> - 2x dmg, 0.33% attack speed.
...
This would leave me taking:
Skulk - Carapace, Celerity, Focus.
Gorge - Regen, Adrenaline, Stealth
Lerk - Regen, Celerity/Adrenaline, Focus
Fade - Carapace, Celerity/Adrenaline, Focus
Onos - Carapace/Regen, Celerity/Adrenaline, Stealth
Opinions?
If this was to be combined with the new implementations of:
Hypermutation
Feign Death
New DC upgrade
We could have some reallllly good customization combinations.
Hypermutation, Stealth, Regen for the ultimate: hit, run, re-heal, re-evolve, re-hit? :D
"Good" to me implies that marines go "DAMMIT THIS SKULK WON'T DIE WTF" and worry about carapace. Not... just shoot two more bullets and kill him. Most marines probably don't even notice because aliens die so very quickly, whereas every alien knows when the marines have armor upgrades, as it increases the TTK against them by a full second or two, requiring SEVERAL more attacks.
So 800 extra HP on an onos isn't the reason its used?... Pretty sure that's why its used.
Doesn't matter if other problems are broken, they will be fixed also... :p
What about on everything else?
It'd be nice if someone had the raw numbers so we could chart out exactly how effective carapace is. I'm fairly certain that no carapace vs. W0 has longer survivability than carapace vs. W3.
*Ninja edit*
<!--quoteo(post=2011077:date=Nov 5 2012, 02:31 PM:name=Desther)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Desther @ Nov 5 2012, 02:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011077"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulk: 70hp, 10 Armour = 90 effective hp
LMG: 10 damage per shot
No upgrades means 10 shots to kill if the skulk's passive regen heals him 1hp+ during the fight, 9 otherwise.
------------------------
Cara skulk is 70hp 30A = 130 hp
LMG level 3 is 13 damage per shot
11 shots to kill if passive regen heals 1hp+ during the fight, 10 otherwise.
So it takes 1 more bullet to kill a cara skulk with weapons 3 than it does to kill a plain skulk with weapons 0. I got these numbers from the wiki, they could be wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe dropping lifeform eggs should require hive population like drifters do
or
Maybe drifters should have a role in generating advanced lifeform eggs
Having a different Tres vs. Pres cost to dropping in equipment is another, but less favorable option
Also why is Marine Commander unable to drop in a double exo?
No idea but I think its on my list...
Might request it is only drop-able with 3 tech chairs! :D
It'd be nice if someone had the raw numbers so we could chart out exactly how effective carapace is. I'm fairly certain that no carapace vs. W0 has longer survivability than carapace vs. W3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulk: 70hp, 10 Armour = 90 effective hp
LMG: 10 damage per shot
No upgrades means 10 shots to kill if the skulk's passive regen heals him 1hp+ during the fight, 9 otherwise.
------------------------
Cara skulk is 70hp 30A = 130 hp
LMG level 3 is 13 damage per shot
11 shots to kill if passive regen heals 1hp+ during the fight, 10 otherwise.
So it takes 1 more bullet to kill a cara skulk with weapons 3 than it does to kill a plain skulk with weapons 0. I got these numbers from the wiki, they could be wrong.
Actually no, I am almost certain passive regen still works 100% of the time... I have often gone into fights with exactly 100% hp and left them with exactly 1hp (even as an onos, but only once) and this can only be possible (or so extremely unlikely (if we rule out flame throwers, which there wernt any in the fights I am talking about) that it can be attributed to nothing else) due to passive regen.
I don't know. I was chewing on a power node and my health most certainly was not regenerating in the process.
After you take or deal damage, you do not passively regenerate for ~4 seconds. If you attack but aren't dealing damage (ie: just biting at a wall), you will start regenerating.
But taking damage most certainly arrests the passive regen, and doing damage does as well.
You can easily test it yourself with an Onos and a sentry. I ran around stomping all the marine structures to death after I dealt some damage and after 20 seconds I hadn't regenerated anything. I stopped and 4 seconds later it kicked in.
I knew regen was pretty well garbage now, but that you can't regen while killing extractors or nodes alone in a room is beyond bad
Regen should work while taking hits on infestation at least
-
After you take or deal damage, you do not passively regenerate for ~4 seconds. If you attack but aren't dealing damage (ie: just biting at a wall), you will start regenerating.
But taking damage most certainly arrests the passive regen, and doing damage does as well.
You can easily test it yourself with an Onos and a sentry. I ran around stomping all the marine structures to death after I dealt some damage and after 20 seconds I hadn't regenerated anything. I stopped and 4 seconds later it kicked in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice to know.
<!--quoteo(post=2011194:date=Nov 5 2012, 03:59 PM:name=MaximumSquid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ Nov 5 2012, 03:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011194"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you can't regen while killing extractors or nodes alone in a room is beyond bad<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep bollox innit! :D
I do not understand why people think the aliens never win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We can offset this imbalance by not requiring marine resnodes to take twice as long to build as they did in NS1 any more. Because sitting and holding 'e' for long periods of time is the most fun way we can keep marines from being overpowered, right?