7 Topics detrimental to aliens gameplay

Codeine · November 2012

<div class="IPBDescription">C'mon UWE time to fess up and make some changes</div>EDIT: These topics were on the front page at the time of making this Topic. There are many others relating to a similar issue.

Cloaking, and why it sucks right now.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123466" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=123466</a>

So are they ever going to "fix" Aliens?
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123433" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=123433</a>

Fixing the onos
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123514" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=123514</a>

Alien Vision sucks.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123345" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=123345</a>

Marines turtle games when game should be over.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123564" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=123564</a>

Fade / lifeform uselessness
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123595" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=123595</a>

late game aliens boring
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123584" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=123584</a>

Armouries and Hit and Run
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123278" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=123278</a>

This is just the first page. Theres no kidding yourself theres problems with aliens even IF the game has 50/50 winrate. WITH aliens dropping 5min onos eggs. Thats gotta mean something. hello...uwe?

hakenspit · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>This is just the first page. Theres no kidding yourself theres problems with aliens even IF the game has 50/50 winrate. WITH aliens dropping 5min onos eggs. Thats gotta mean something. hello...uwe?</div>
Shhh dont point out the onos thing...they will nerf them next!

I guess its just a waiting game....hopefully they are busy working out how to make both side feel fun to play (they have nailed marines...lets hope its not at the expense of aliens)

PsympleJester · November 2012

Arguably the Alien Vision one is more of a graphics complaint:
However you did miss quite a few of the other threads.

Fade
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123576" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=123576</a>

More Fade
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123595" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=123595</a>

Aliens in General + some marines.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123400" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=123400</a>

|strofix| · November 2012

Whats this? So many threads about a team being underpowered when said team plays completely different to any experience previously encountered and the game has just had a massive influx of new players?

YADONTSAY.jpg

PsympleJester · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Nov 6 2012, 05:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012194"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Whats this? So many threads about a team being underpowered when said team plays completely different to any experience previously encountered and the game has just had a massive influx of new players?

YADONTSAY.jpg</div>

We had the exact same complaints before all the new players showed up, this has nothing to do with the release...

Davil · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 5 2012, 09:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012196"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>We had the exact same complaints before all the new players showed up, this has nothing to do with the release...</div>

There were very few people complaining about early onos, and no one complaining about alien vision before. Now there are several topics and most of them just severely miss the point.

Gliss · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Nov 5 2012, 09:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012204"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>There were very few people complaining about early onos</div>
uh... what? the launch tournament had <i>every single alien team</i> use the early onos. there were plenty of complaints...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Nov 5 2012, 09:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012204"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>and no one complaining about alien vision before. Now there are several topics and most of them just severely miss the point.</div>
people are just asking for basic functionality with their features, not some haphazard implementation. is it really that surprising? these are things that should be in games <i>already</i>, basic features like demo recording and HUD editing. :/

PsympleJester · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 6 2012, 05:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>uh... what? the launch tournament had <i>every single alien team</i> use the early onos. there were plenty of complaints...</div>

Indeed... Infact there was a huge fiasco with people getting banned for being vocal about it in the live stream.

Dghelneshi · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Nov 6 2012, 06:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012204"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>no one complaining about alien vision before</div>
I guess that predates your registration date. I personally have given up on the subject.

SpaceJew · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Nov 5 2012, 10:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012148"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>This is just the first page. Theres no kidding yourself theres problems with aliens even IF the game has 50/50 winrate. WITH aliens dropping 5min onos eggs. Thats gotta mean something. hello...uwe?</div>

And here's another one! None of those OP's address how many players there were on their server. Since the game is balanced around 16 players yet most of the servers people gravitate to are 24 players there might be some issues there.

Not disagreeing with you per say, there are tweaks I'd like to see that I've put into those and a few other topics. In 24 person servers, the issue is that all the armor and weapon upgrades marines get are magnified. A team of 11 marines with level 3 armor and weapons will destroy an Onos in seconds even with Umbra. Lower that number to 7 marines and the same Onos with Umbra stands at least a chance of running away. He still won't do anything effective to the marines in either scenario, but in one of those he might have saved himself 75 p.res.

Regardless, if the majority of servers are running with 24 people then perhaps the game needs to be rebalanced around that fact. Either that, or a lot of those servers should maybe reduce the player count to better reflect the design of the game. I suppose it's also possible that someone could come out with a rebalanced 24 count version of the abilities. This would most likely involve tying more marines tech to number of command chairs and improving aliens abilities to stack to a higher performance level with number of hives, which is probably the most reasonable balance idea I've come across on the forums. It would make the marines strive for more hives instead of camping on two and waiting for tech.

I agree with asymmetrical game play to a point, but not when it comes to resource management. (Gun pickup and no alien structure recycle are the two biggest offenders at the moment.)

Davil · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 5 2012, 09:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>uh... what? the launch tournament had <i>every single alien team</i> use the early onos. there were plenty of complaints...

people are just asking for basic functionality with their features, not some haphazard implementation. is it really that surprising? these are things that should be in games <i>already</i>, basic features like demo recording and HUD editing. :/</div>

On the forums there were almost no topics complaining about early onos until the launch day tournament and then there was 1. I invite you to go back about 16 pages and look it up. It's people complaining because they lost when it's been shown that good marines can kill an onos with a bit of teamwork. I can't remember the other team but it was arc vs somebody, and that match had both teams getting early onos and it didn't make a difference for either. Both teams lost their onos a few minutes after they got it without really much effect. I see getting an onos early and having the hole team support it, as a very high level team strategy. An unsupported onos is a lot like an unsupported exo, you can do a lot of damage but you are a big target.

And I don't know what other shooters or strategy games really have a "customizable hud" not sure what you even mean by that, are you talking about buttons or moving stuff around? Cause you can change the hot keys if you know how to find the lua files for it. And there is demo recording program, it's called Fraps or one of the other several programs that were constantly told to all the people asking how to record games.

Sooty · November 2012

Did the forums have this much outcry during the beta?

Swiftspear · November 2012

Popular != Right

The fade is in a different role than it was in NS1, but for a dozen reasons that's fine. Alien flashlight is a visual thing, not really an imbalance thing. Late game aliens is boring, but that's not because aliens are bad, that's because they are designed to be good at map control, not besieging a highly defended base. The onos thing surrounds a timing push that honestly people shouldn't be whining about, and the complaint is that it's overpowered, not that it's underpowered. The armories topic isn't about aliens, it's about an imbalanced structure on marines. Cloaking is better implimented than it was in NS1; at best you can argue that forward progress hasn't been far enough.

Basically. It's not shocking that discussion about balance and game design is popular less than a full week after release, and what you're trying to claim is being disputed in most of this discussion, is not nearly as simple as you're making it out to be.

Davil · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Nov 5 2012, 09:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012211"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I guess that predates your registration date. I personally have given up on the subject.</div>

Been around quite awhile actually, note the constellation symbol, I just didn't feel the need to post on the forums all that much.

PsympleJester · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sooty @ Nov 6 2012, 05:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012220"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Did the forums have this much outcry during the beta?</div>

About the early onos yes...
About the underlying faults of the entire alien tech tree, no...
But then again we were told by UWE that lots of shiny things that we had not seen before were going to be given to us on release, they for some reason decided not to give them to the beta testers before hand... god knows why... and thus perhaps we expected more from the release than we should have.

Either way we allowed UWE off the hook whilst they spent their time working hard to deliver us what they considered a completed game.
Now that by their standards the game is "complete" I believe the full "feedback" is starting to come through as to the major faults that need to be addressed.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 6 2012, 05:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012224"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>that's because they [aliens] are designed to be good at map control,</div>

No they arn't...
Aliens spend the majority of most games with LESS rt's and LESS tech points than marines.
Marines have teleportation between points in the map AND sprint.
Marines are able to fortify any area on the map with armouries.
Crags require to ALWAYS be connected to a hive by cyst chains and heal pathetically badly.

What game are you playing sir?

Codeine · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 6 2012, 03:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012224"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Basically. It's not shocking that discussion about balance and game design is popular less than a full week after release, and what you're trying to claim is being disputed in most of this discussion, is not nearly as simple as you're making it out to be.</div>

threads like these were common during beta, although few in numbers. They still outlined the same flaw. Aliens. If UWE hadn't strayed so far from NS1's roots then it would have made NS2 easier to adjust to get right. Pretty simple really.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 6 2012, 03:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012226"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>About the underlying faults of the entire alien tech tree, no...</div>

I remember there being quite a bit of discussion about Hive 2 and its importance.

Its still the same, knock out hive 2 and gg aliens. Because there's just too much reliance on it. Marines can erect CC in seconds and they dont rely on it anywhere near as much as aliens do. Marines dont even have to build it if they dont want to MACs.

Ansom · November 2012

My Alien Vision topic isn't about balance as much as it is about hindering beginners.

BootyPoppin · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Nov 5 2012, 11:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012237"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>threads like these were common during beta, although few in numbers. They still outlined the same flaw. Aliens. If UWE hadn't strayed so far from NS1's roots then it would have made NS2 easier to adjust to get right. Pretty simple really.

I remember there being quite a bit of discussion about Hive 2 and its importance.

Its still the same, knock out hive 2 and gg aliens. Because there's just too much reliance on it. Marines can erect CC in seconds and they dont rely on it anywhere near as much as aliens do. Marines dont even have to build it if they dont want to MACs.</div>

isn't a CC 15 res and a hive 40 anyway..? and recyclable? Dunno, I don't Comm, so can't say much on that subject, I just slay things.

PsympleJester · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Nov 6 2012, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012237"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Its still the same, knock out hive 2 and gg aliens. Because there's just too much reliance on it. Marines can erect CC in seconds and they dont rely on it anywhere near as much as aliens do. Marines dont even have to build it if they dont want to MACs.</div>

Corrected yes but I think this was mostly in spite of the 223 bite nerf and leap being REQUIRED for most people to get any skulk kills in public play... xD But yeah I suppose that has always been said.

Codeine · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ansom @ Nov 6 2012, 03:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012244"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>My Alien Vision topic isn't about balance as much as it is about hindering beginners.</div>

Its still detrimental to alien gameplay, the alien vision just doesnt hinder beginners, it hinders everyone.....dark vision. You ask any beta tester and i bet you most of them are using it. Wonder why? coz its crap.

It hinders all gameplay, by you know, not being able to see clearly and stuff. you have to constantly turn it on/off to see how bright/dark it is.
NS1's alien vision was clean and easy to see.

Sooty · November 2012

What I really don't understand is why there doesn't seem to be anything coming from UWE side. From this article:

<a href="http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/11/03/how-natural-selection-2-was-saved-and-made-by-fans/" target="_blank">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/11/03...d-made-by-fans/</a>

I was imagining UWE to be more like Riot. Open, reasonable, frank, great mediators and generally awesome. This forum is in danger of becoming really toxic without some leadership. Where's our commander!

Davil · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Nov 5 2012, 10:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Its still detrimental to alien gameplay, the alien vision just doesnt hinder beginners, it hinders everyone.....dark vision. You ask any beta tester and i bet you most of them are using it. Wonder why? coz its crap.

It hinders all gameplay, by you know, not being able to see clearly and stuff. you have to constantly turn it on/off to see how bright/dark it is.
NS1's alien vision was clean and easy to see.</div>

I actually never changed the alien vision during the beta and use it almost the entire time I'm on aliens. I worry less about eye candy and more about what is actually a threat.

PsympleJester · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sooty @ Nov 6 2012, 06:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012281"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>What I really don't understand is why there doesn't seem to be anything coming from UWE side. From this article:</div>

Problem is that they talk about being really open but they arn't...
Even spending $40 two years ago we were still kept in the dark about loads of stuff that was dropped on our laps at release day.
Apparently there is a mystic portal to the devs where by if you email charlie he will actually respond to you and apparently take all of your criticism on board. I was tempted to email him my balance list... but I don't see the point.

At the end of the day they are a company... they have "delivered" our product now and they could close down this forum in the next 5 mins and we could never hear from them again... Would be totally legit.. they wont do it but why should we expect anymore than that?

Honest to god it just makes me not want to work in the games industry even more... Having finished my degree companies like UWE and Valve looked like the perfect job... the utopia of the games industry... Meh... lol.

Gliss · November 2012

I wouldn't mind just seeing the developer blog resurrected, and just something like:
sound - working on it
customization - working on it
onos - working on it
fades - working on it
lerks - working on it
blinkswipe bug - working on it
it's really hard to keep track, especially if you are new to the forums of the issues at hand and what's being looked at and what isn't. the knockback bug was being complained about in the beta for like, four days after a dev had already acknowledged that it was a bug and it was being removed.

hakenspit · November 2012

Alien tech tree, 2nd hive importance, lack of turtle breaking abilities (ie ranged spores) and a lack of hive teleporting along with linking marine tech tree to tech points have all being things the alien playing minority have been calling for through out the Beta...I am sure there are other points that we have brought up over the time.
Sadly we had more marines on the testing team and very few aliens (especially lerks) which has hampered the balance.

Any time we started talking about issues with say skulk bite there was always a plethora of "L2P n00b" type posts, despite the fact UWE had admitted to the fault and where patching it in next release.

I cant blame UWE they responded to the vocal majority in testing/development and this is why marines are so much fun to play but aliens isn't.
We now have more people playing so we will see more alien support filtering through, hopefully now we are post 1.0 (and UWE have had a good weeks rest)they will start fixing up aliens and balancing the game to fun play.

PsympleJester · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 6 2012, 06:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012307"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I wouldn't mind just seeing the developer blog resurrected, and just something like:
sound - working on it
customization - working on it
onos - working on it
fades - working on it
lerks - working on it
blinkswipe bug - working on it
it's really hard to keep track, especially if you are new to the forums of the issues at hand and what's being looked at and what isn't. the knockback bug was being complained about in the beta for like, four days after a dev had already acknowledged that it was a bug and it was being removed.</div>

Deffo... I am quite disappointed with myself for missing the Q&A...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Nov 6 2012, 06:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Aliens not fun! :O</div>

I totally disagree I have more fun with my Gimped fade than anything else... I had more fun with my 223 skulk than anything else...
When I had hyper mutation I would literally: Go in the fight as a lerk, gestate fade, fight as fade, gestate onos, fight as onos, gestate lerk, fight as lerk... Repeat.

It was AMAZINGLY FUN and the Marines had no ###### idea what you were going to kill them as next...

OnosFactory · November 2012

Sooty, there has only ever been 'outcry' on these forums lol!

Simini · November 2012

In full agreement, i really do want to play fade but it is so damn weak and easy to kill that it just is not worth it, does less damage than a skulk and dies almost just as easily.

50 res for the current fade is no where near worth it, if i wanted to be a thorn in the backside of every marine i'd just go lerk and start doing spore runs, saving up for the Onos is clearly the best thing to do.

hakenspit · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 6 2012, 04:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012319"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I totally disagree I have more fun with my Gimped fade than anything else... I had more fun with my 223 skulk than anything else...
When I had hyper mutation I would literally: Go in the fight as a lerk, gestate fade, fight as fade, gestate onos, fight as onos, gestate lerk, fight as lerk... Repeat.

It was AMAZINGLY FUN and the Marines had no ###### idea what you were going to kill them as next...</div>
Well I am glad you enjoy your fade, you missed the point of aliens (not a specific alien) being unfun.
Its simple and has been stat4ed many times, simply put even when your winning as aliens it feels like your losing.
Your always frantically trying to save your team from losing, more so than from the marines perspective.
As marines you can have fun and lose the game because your w3 lmg does enough damage that you will keep getting kills.

Marines can turtle one base with aliens unable to really do anything the marines can still scale perfectly well despite have almost 0 map control. Aside from onos nothing else can really make a decent impact, this is why we see a lot of recycled victories (less with the new comms who are more willing to fight tooth and nail, but they will spike again).

Aliens are not fun to play...marines are fun..even when we are losing I can grab a JP and SG and go do some serious damage to both lifeforms and upgrades....as aliens can go chew an extractor "WOW....the FUN!!!" but dont stay too long as if a marine sees you your likely dead.
Sorry but this is not fun, they nerfed hydras because "No-one wants to spend all game killing structures"...well look at a skulks role after about 5 min in, avoid combat..and attack things that cant shoot you.

arnyboy87 · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Simini @ Nov 6 2012, 07:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012371"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>In full agreement, i really do want to play fade but it is so damn weak and easy to kill that it just is not worth it, does less damage than a skulk and dies almost just as easily.

50 res for the current fade is no where near worth it, if i wanted to be a thorn in the backside of every marine i'd just go lerk and start doing spore runs, saving up for the Onos is clearly the best thing to do.</div>

I find this the problem without hyper people are forced to save for the lifeform they want to play rather than chossing the lifeform that would help the most just now. Also I have saw people just sitting in base defending so they never die and can get lifefroms quicker (this is not fun) I personal don't do this but I have heard very gd players (no names) say this very thing. (<u>prehaps no res while dead is a bad idea for aliens!?!</u> I have never had this problem as marines, I think because of the way the weapons work ie you can pick them back up)

Davil · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (arnyboy87 @ Nov 5 2012, 11:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012396"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I find this the problem without hyper people are forced to save for the lifeform they want to play rather than chossing the lifeform that would help the most just now. Also I have saw people just sitting in base defending so they never die and can get lifefroms quicker (this is not fun) I personal don't do this but I have heard very gd players (no names) say this very thing. (<u>prehaps no res while dead is a bad idea for aliens!?!</u> I have never had this problem as marines, I think because of the way the weapons work ie you can pick them back up)</div>

Very good players generally don't die by being sneaky and surprising people. For example the comm is putting up a new res tower, the good player will probably post somewhere between the res tower and where he expects the marines to come from. The upside of this is you protect an asset and stay alive. Down side is no real pressure on the marines. I prefer to wait outside their base and ambush them so they barely leave.

7 Topics detrimental to aliens gameplay

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