I'm afraid of all these "aliens suck, buff them" threads...
guitarxe
Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 166148Members
Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 166148Members
I'm afraid that UWE is going to cave in and <i>actually</i> change something to "buff" aliens, ruining a perfectly balanced game.
Was it as bad during beta? Is there a consistent problem that gives the perception that aliens are somehow less capable compared to marines? Or are we still riding the wave of ignorant (and naive!) noobs whining and crying and refusing to learn?
Was it as bad during beta? Is there a consistent problem that gives the perception that aliens are somehow less capable compared to marines? Or are we still riding the wave of ignorant (and naive!) noobs whining and crying and refusing to learn?
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Was it as bad during beta? Is there a consistent problem that gives the perception that aliens are somehow less capable compared to marines? Or are we still riding the wave of ignorant (and naive!) noobs whining and crying and refusing to learn?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Watch the old competitive tournies on NS2HD/BlindNS/Other and watch how the strategies go from fading and then dropping early onos... to fading at the same time as early onos.... to just forgetting about fades entirely and dropping onos even earlier.
Was it as bad during beta? Is there a consistent problem that gives the perception that aliens are somehow less capable compared to marines? Or are we still riding the wave of ignorant (and naive!) noobs whining and crying and refusing to learn?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They must already know that the game will be more unbalanced if they buff aliens. Someone claming for alien buffs just don't know how to play as an alien.
They just go straight to the dummy of shotgun marines and get killed and claim for balance. The best example is competitive match. They know how to play good as an alien, and they can still harrass marines.
Actually what should just be nerfed is alien's 75 tres onos, and that's kind of funny. Also the example must be competitive matches. It's obvious that it's op.
But that doesn't mean that current alien is ok. There's definately something wrong. That something must be improved, and rookie-friendly. But no more fade buff or something. As soon as fade would be buffed, i am pretty sure that everyone including just everyone will complain about overpowered fade. Fade is just ok, and still so good that one fade can harrass without any death 20~30 marines if a player knows how to play as fade.
Edit: Oh yeah I am actually also a little bit scared that UWE will cater to these nubs.
This is what I'm talking about. Even in NS1 there was this general perception amongst the noobs that aliens were severely underpowered. What is causing this? Is it because aliens are primarily melee vs marines that used ranged weapons? Is it because people are not used to playing anything melee in an FPS environment?
I think you should note that the majority of the people complaining about balance are Beta Testers and thus have been playing the game a considerable period of time.
<img src="http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q542/PsympleJester/400hours_zpscf361c5f.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Does that make my opinion hold no fault? No...
But I can assure you that a great majority of those games are alien and probably 40-50 of those hours are as fade.
Just because something is viable does not make it balanced and we shall see just how "viable" fade is when onos egg is removed.
Aliens should not have to spend 50 res for a small health increase, slightly more maneuverability, less damage to structures and it all be accepted as totally balanced. As a skulk you don't have to ever fear death, meaning in most situations you can do MORE damage than a fade because the rest of your game wont be entirely gimped if you die.
And for those saying fade is more maneuverable than a skulk... lol... walljump + celerity + leap...
6 Bites at close range for a skulk to kill a level 3 armor marine, however it only takes 1 hit from a shutgun for a skulk with carapace to die against a marine.
The fade is extremely easy to kill, a 50 res fade is actually unable to kill a 3 armor shotgun marine.
The fade should also be able to challenge and depending on skill level beat a 1 gun exo, which is currently has no chance of doing.
Marines are so OP it isn't even funny.
And the only thing you are afraid of is a true diverse challenge.
Also i like how you basically said "LOL ALIENS L2P NUBS" that isn't the issue at all, the marines are just extremely favored.
I think the PT team and people who speak to them regularly are much more likely to have some influence on their arcane balancing process than random forumgoers.
It's known as the derp effect. Primarily though, you have it right there. People complain because they can't head rush the entire team of Marines by themselves down a lit corridor. This is, of course, hyperbole, but that's basically it. End game, after the aliens have screwed up royally and wasted all their T.Res and P.Res, they get upset that W3/A3 marines that were on their A-Game tear them a new one. Sadly, most of them don't realize it's because they screwed up twenty minutes ago and are now paying the price for a noobish early game.
At the end of the day, a lot of these people are also the same ones that upgrade shade as their first hive and crag as the second one. I compare that to a marine commander that drops Exo's when the aliens control the map. It's a GG maneuver where you might as well F4 unless the other team is that bad.
But, they're just not as fun as they were in NS1.
I'm all for changes in a game that is supposed to be a sequel. However, I won't refrain from criticizing changes that are detrimental to fun.
UWE can get this right.
We must be playing different games. While we may be experiencing near 50/50 win rates this does not mean a balanced game. Why people are asking for alien buffs is the alien tech path can seem very linear as not all routes are as viable as the others. The big one that rolls around on the forums these days is the 5-6 minute Onos. This is largely due to the rest of the tech tree not being comparable and to the fact that the timing when the onos comes out the marine tech tree has nothing of equivalence (simply put an endgame unit coming out in the early-mid game which it is not balanced for hp/damage wise).
No one is going for an over-reactionary buff to the aliens which will skew the overall win rates, what we would like to have is more viable options to get that win. This creates more variety in the gameplay and thus increases the re-playability of the game. Currently the marine team feels more fleshed out than the other in terms of tech choices.
Also I am going to put this in bold:
<b>This game will never, ever, ever, never be perfectly balanced. It cannot happen. The key however is to get as close as we can while still maintaining an enjoyable experience for both teams.</b>
The really tricky part is that by improving the enjoyment or usefulness of one aspect, you're affecting balance that requires other changes to make up for it.
I see things like "skulks should be faster with 10 more health". Well, maybe that would make playing skulk more enjoyable, and maybe it's warranted, but something else would have to change in order to keep the game balanced.
The same is true when adding new weapons or abilities. There's a railgun coming. That's going to affect balance, and other things will have to change to make up for it.
You can't balance a game like this by making isolated changes, people don't seem to understand that. Everything affects everything else.
I think the PT team and people who speak to them regularly are much more likely to have some influence on their arcane balancing process than random forumgoers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We can at least help out with some brain-storming as a community.
<!--quoteo(post=2013150:date=Nov 6 2012, 01:11 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 6 2012, 01:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's known as the derp effect. Primarily though, you have it right there. People complain because they can't head rush the entire team of Marines by themselves down a lit corridor. This is, of course, hyperbole, but that's basically it. End game, after the aliens have screwed up royally and wasted all their T.Res and P.Res, they get upset that W3/A3 marines that were on their A-Game tear them a new one. Sadly, most of them don't realize it's because they screwed up twenty minutes ago and are now paying the price for a noobish early game.
At the end of the day, a lot of these people are also the same ones that upgrade shade as their first hive and crag as the second one. I compare that to a marine commander that drops Exo's when the aliens control the map. It's a GG maneuver where you might as well F4 unless the other team is that bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To continue from above, what we need to decide on is two things, then:
1. Is this a problem or not? We can just wait it out till people either learn and stick around, or give up and leave. Is this hurtful to the game being picked up by newer players, thus stifling a steady increase in players?
2. If so, what could be done to improve this? I am not talking about buffing aliens, or changing any kind of game balance. I am talking about things like improved in-game tutorials or hints. Perhaps some kind of better visual representation that you should NOT be running on the floor head-long down a corridor at marines. Perhaps some kind of message in the game when choosing to play aliens that they are harder to play than marines for inexperienced players?
Would this funnel newer players to play marines instead of aliens? Will this be beneficial to them? If they see HOW good players are playing aliens, then whenever they try alien they will mimic them?
(I was even thinking of some kind of "training" mod for aliens that would cause skulks to slowly lose health if they remain on floor tiles for more than a second at a time, but that's probably impossible.)
<img src="http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q542/PsympleJester/400hours_zpscf361c5f.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was a beta tester as well and I have played more than you.... sooooo whatever that means.
<!--quoteo(post=2013145:date=Nov 6 2012, 11:06 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 6 2012, 11:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013145"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens should not have to spend 50 res for a small health increase, slightly more maneuverability, less damage to structures and it all be accepted as totally balanced. As a skulk you don't have to ever fear death, meaning in most situations you can do MORE damage than a fade because the rest of your game wont be entirely gimped if you die.
And for those saying fade is more maneuverable than a skulk... lol... walljump + celerity + leap...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol.... I don't know what to say to that. Watch Garfu play as a fade and you'll see how effective those ###### can be.
Thank you for saying that. I get annoyed when people claim balance, even when justified, to be equal to fun and depth.
While I think this game has some imbalance issues, it's certainly nothing glaring or absolutely wrong (perhaps with the exception of onos which is very wrong right now). The small balances can be tweaked and worked out, but what this game needs is more fun. More things to do. Hopefully, UWE will play their cards smart and make the moves that are best for the game's fun level and not coddle the community.
I don't know about Fade balance but I think it's a legitimate concern if average pub players find them weak. If they suck in a match between average players, it doesn't matter if they're great in a match between pro players, that's still not good balance.
Imo ns2 is pretty damn balanced for a v1.0, the issue is more that it's not fun for anyone to play fast 2 hive onos. Viability of late game skulking/fading/lurking needs to be improved in order for aliens to be more interesting.
Was it as bad during beta? Is there a consistent problem that gives the perception that aliens are somehow less capable compared to marines? Or are we still riding the wave of ignorant (and naive!) noobs whining and crying and refusing to learn?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens don't need to be buffed, rather they need what their missing, upgrades and abilities. However some life forms do take skill to use. Most games I see new players get a fade egg or use their own points and run off to go on a killing rampage, then the first shot gun they find they die.
Was it as bad during beta? Is there a consistent problem that gives the perception that aliens are somehow less capable compared to marines? Or are we still riding the wave of ignorant (and naive!) noobs whining and crying and refusing to learn?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is a prototypically bad post: X are not bad, you just need to learn/be better.
What is closer to reality is:
There is and will always be players with varying skill levels. Given that you can conceive of an average player at any given skill level, a team is only unbalanced if at any given skill level that player is better at one team than the other.
I am basically saying that the skill curves for aliens and marines should be very similar for "balanced" teams. A game feels unbalanced when a bad/new player can do better than good/experienced player via some mechanic of the game.
6 Bites at close range for a skulk to kill a level 3 armor marine, however it only takes 1 hit from a shutgun for a skulk with carapace to die against a marine.
The fade is extremely easy to kill, a 50 res fade is actually unable to kill a 3 armor shotgun marine.
The fade should also be able to challenge and depending on skill level beat a 1 gun exo, which is currently has no chance of doing.
Marines are so OP it isn't even funny.
And the only thing you are afraid of is a true diverse challenge.
Also i like how you basically said "LOL ALIENS L2P NUBS" that isn't the issue at all, the marines are just extremely favored.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comes to player skill.
In a game last night I chomped down 2 level 3 marines as a skulk with regen.
Marines weren't ######, I was just quicker at dodging than they could aim, the second and subsequent time around I only got 1 down as they kept a bit of distance between each other.
<!--quoteo(post=2013515:date=Nov 7 2012, 01:18 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Nov 7 2012, 01:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you lose as marines it's cause your either aren't listening to the comm, can't shoot, or the comm is buying turrets before upgrades. Honestly a good marine team will beat a good alien team almost every time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good Marine vs Good Alien team = Marine winning each time would actually be ... Better than good Marine Team.
On the second note that has been brought up, I doubt we will see any good alien team vs. good marine team for a while. New players to this game find marine easier to play, off the fact that it’s easy to seem like a FPS. The game has been out for a week and there are tens of thousands of players who just began playing it but some players have been playing much, much longer. A balance of teams is unlikely for the few average players, playing since alpha and let’s not forget if a team gets 1 or 2 competitive players on it.
-There is the "Lingering dead game" effect when Aliens have cornered marines down to their last base, on a pub server. This is probably not a problem on Pro servers where everyone's coordinated, but honestly if you have a team that only has a pretty good idea of what they're doing (and has successfully pushed back the marines thus far) then they're going to have a completely grueling time getting that last base, even knowing the chances of the marine team pushing back are nil.
They'll eventually get it, but this is not all that fun to deal with. It essentially becomes the dreaded 2fort standoff where neither team is making headway.
-Even pro teams seem to be ignoring Fades now. A pro can use a Fade amazingly. To a newbie, it's only a little better than a skulk. This works very much against fun.
-There's an overdependence on Onos for rushing bases. When a base is undefended (pretty often with marines' reduced mobility) you can just chew it all down, but anytime marines are IN a base, you know you're gonna be waiting until endgame to do damage to them.
However, in terms of gameplay buff/balancing: I'd say it's perfectly fine for UKE to ignore that all for the first month or more. There is still a good chance for someone to jump up and say "Hey, what if we try this?" and the game changes significantly without any mechanical change. They also have a lot of more technical issues to work on, and lots more feedback/data to collect before they make any big decisions about gameplay.
tl;r: All of this discussion, this post included, is pointless. =p
- Xenocide is terribly weak, forces you to eat a death, sit in the spawn queue, costs you pres (because you're dead and earning none), and eats eggs.
- A3 > skulk bite. If we all agree that skulk vs. marine is 'fair' at the beginning, then we all must agree that they're underpowered later. Marines only kill them faster and they die to skulks slower, when the opposite does not happen. Logically they must be underpowered at that point. W3 counters Carapace almost exactly but nothing counters A3, so marines become much more effective.
- Parasite is garbage since they nerfed it in three different ways.
- Leap is neutered and nowhere near as powerful as it used to be, does no damage, and consumes more energy, making the skulk that much less effective against jetpackers.
- Xenocide is terribly weak, forces you to eat a death, sit in the spawn queue, costs you pres (because you're dead and earning none), and eats eggs.
- A3 > skulk bite. If we all agree that skulk vs. marine is 'fair' at the beginning, then we all must agree that they're underpowered later. Marines only kill them faster and they die to skulks slower, when the opposite does not happen. Logically they must be underpowered at that point.
- Parasite is garbage since they nerfed it in three different ways.
- Leap is neutered and nowhere near as powerful as it used to be, does no damage, and consumes more energy, making the skulk that much less effective against jetpackers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Skulks pretty much fail at everything they do endgame. Or at least, severely outclassed by other lifeforms.
<ul><li>Drop 50 pres on Fade.</li><li>Get a kill or two.</li><li>Get killed.</li><li>Resort to playing the UP Skulk for the rest of the late game waiting for more res.</li></ul>
How it is when I play Marines:
<ul><li>Buy Shotgun and Jetpack.</li><li>Get a handful of kills.</li><li>Get killed.</li><li>Respawn and do it again.</li></ul>
Alien forms feel too disposable for their pres costs.
No I'm confident if you took the top competitive teams and they played mirror images of themselves, the alien side would lose 90% of the time. If you watch some comp matches you'll see.
Right now, Aliens are not easy to learn at all. That is an issue. Perhaps an early game skulk buff could be traded for a late game (Onos) nerf?
<ul><li>Drop 50 pres on Fade.</li><li>Get a kill or two.</li><li>Get killed.</li><li>Resort to playing the UP Skulk for the rest of the late game waiting for more res.</li></ul>
How it is when I play Marines:
<ul><li>Buy Shotgun and Jetpack.</li><li>Get a handful of kills.</li><li>Get killed.</li><li>Respawn and do it again.</li></ul>
Alien forms feel too disposable for their pres costs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesn't help that jetpacks are so undervalued it's stupid. For what you get they should be like 40 res. I've said it before and I'll say it again - almost every design decision in this game seems like it was done to the benefit of the marines by making them more fun and enjoyable overall. Poor marines don't like getting parasited? So let's add three ways to remove it (medkits, armory, just wait). The most effective weapon combination in the game, even from NS1, costs as much as a Gorge. They didn't want "hidden bonuses" so they didn't let aliens scale, but they left in the cheesy marine armor / weapon upgrades. Celerity, regeneration, and passive regeneration doesn't work if you deal or take damage. Shotguns don't deal limited damage in some capacity, allowing you to nuke off half a Fade's health in one hit, kill skulks instantly, and blow structures away in seconds. Aliens got hivesight almost totally removed, now they have to spend half the game playing PacMan on their maximaps. Marines cried when they got bit in the dark, so all the maps are lit up fullbright in most areas.
I don't get it at all.