I'm gonna drop this before I go. Fades <i>are</i> really that bad. Look at the facts. Their health and damage got significantly nerfed from their NS1 counterpart, and in addition, the introduction of the Alien Commander means by the time upgrades come out for Fades, their time to shine is over. The way the balancing is right now and how upgrades revolve around Hives force the com to get upgrades for Skulks and then rush toward to Onos, leaving the aliens in the middle in the dust. It's too much of a risk to accommodate them. Skulks fall off heavily, and Onos are a <b><i>liability</i></b> to stay in the game and/or win it. The entire reconstruction of how Aliens play (with a commander now who decides upgrades for the entire team) completely screwed up priorities.
I like playing fade. It's not that bad. But like others said before, it costs 50 pres, which is a lot. So most of the time, the smarter move seems like saving that res and just getting an onos at 75 pres, especially if blink is not yet researched.
the fade is fine as it is, it is a 1v1 killing machine, moving around the map at insane speed taking out lone and duo marines and then vanishing before help can arrive. they dont need any changes, the only thing I would consider is increasing onos cost to 85/90 OR tieing them to the 3rd hive.
<!--quoteo(post=2016810:date=Nov 9 2012, 12:08 PM:name=Saj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saj @ Nov 9 2012, 12:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016810"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the fade is fine as it is, it is a 1v1 killing machine, moving around the map at insane speed taking out lone and duo marines and then vanishing before help can arrive. they dont need any changes, the only thing I would consider is increasing onos cost to 85/90 OR tieing them to the 3rd hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But would that make any difference? - the onos allows aliens to attack marine bases. Mid/late game, this is absolutely essential for aliens to win, or recover a game. - the fade allows aliens to kill lone/duo marines that aren't in bases. This is not essential, in fact it's not even a footnote in a winning strategy.
The fade is a tactical choice by the player, they may prefer a lerk or a skulk. (it's akin to buying a shotgun rather than a GL or a flamethrower, or buying a pack of mines). The onos is a strategic choice, which is being made by players, whereas it should be made by the commander.
Extreme solution: - remove p-res onos from the game entirely. The onos is a strategic resource and can only be bought by the commander with strategic resources. Remove 'fast onos'. - reduce the fade to 40 res (or something of that order), or change the rate of pres income.
How about giving the Fade the exclusive ability to gain Pres from kills it gets, so there is actually some bonus to using it over a Skulk for the same job and a way to reclaim the investment you made by going Fade?
<!--quoteo(post=2016838:date=Nov 9 2012, 01:35 PM:name=dumbo11)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dumbo11 @ Nov 9 2012, 01:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But would that make any difference? - the onos allows aliens to attack marine bases. Mid/late game, this is absolutely essential for aliens to win, or recover a game. - the fade allows aliens to kill lone/duo marines that aren't in bases. This is not essential, in fact it's not even a footnote in a winning strategy.
The fade is a tactical choice by the player, they may prefer a lerk or a skulk. (it's akin to buying a shotgun rather than a GL or a flamethrower, or buying a pack of mines). The onos is a strategic choice, which is being made by players, whereas it should be made by the commander.
Extreme solution: - remove p-res onos from the game entirely. The onos is a strategic resource and can only be bought by the commander with strategic resources. Remove 'fast onos'. - reduce the fade to 40 res (or something of that order), or change the rate of pres income.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this game is won by player skill and resource control, the fade can perpetualy keep marines from expanding to new RTs from early to late game no problem.
<!--quoteo(post=2016762:date=Nov 9 2012, 10:47 AM:name=minos_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (minos_ @ Nov 9 2012, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, but if the marines aren't terrible, that means you'll be blinking in once, maaaaybe twice before you are low on health since they will hit you on the way in and the way out. So you get to deal between 27-162 damage depending on if you hit once or twice and how charitable the netcode is feeling. I mean, it's great that you did this damage and all, but now you're spending 20-30 seconds blinking back to the hive, healing, and running out into combat again. This is a pretty abysmal ratio of damage done:time. It's especially bad when marines have an armoury nearby, so they will heal fully between your attack runs, and the only kills you will ever get are on already-weak marines. This also means that fade is just bad for attacking bases, since it does such terrible damage to structures and the players you hit will just heal.
I see a lot of people saying fade is great for 1v1s, etc etc. Yes. It's pretty nice for 1v1s, you might even kill a shotgunner that way (but probably not if he has a jetpack). But really, when do marines attack in ones? And aren't skulks supposed to win most of their 1v1s anyway? A 50pres lifeform for something whose role is to take out people who are already skulkbait seems bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh boo hoo you SINGLE PLAYER run into MULTIPLE PLAYERS who focus you down, and you whine about fade being weak because of that?
also, if you can't kill a lone shotgun+jetpacker as a fade then you're doing it wrong (against an equally skilled marine), you should be winning those - although if you make a single mistake then he will likely punish you - DO NOT MAKE A MISTAKE this is not a game for newbies.
btw skulk is not meant to win 1:1, unless the marine(s) are distracted. in fact, the only times i ever die to single skulk when i'm playing as marine is when i make a stupid mistake (let him sneak up on me) or totally fail at aiming. admittedly, it does happen pretty often because i'm bad and my fps is dodgy too. in pub servers as marine i often get 10:1 kdr or greater, just playing normally - i.e. not going 'rambo'.
maybe you should consider that fade is not meant to be a 'budget onos', maybe you're meant to be a 'luxury skulk', this makes sense to me due to the insane mobility. let's face it, if the alien team make 4 onos then marines just have to bunch up and focus down the onos - then they have a free win because aliens just blew their entire bank on fatties. contrary to onos, fades can safely linger around close to marines - blinking in for 1 swipe and then safely retreat because it's almost impossible for a marine to focus/chase you down if you make proper use of your mobility.
watch almost any competitive game which lasts longer than 10 minutes, you will usually see at least 1 fade (usually you see dropped onos and then 2 other guys save up for fade).
You need +10 res to go Lerk and you will get more kills and higher kill streaks with one than a Fade You also get a ranged attack and the ability to go after Marines with jetpacks without requiring an upgrade
About the time that Lerks become obsolete <i>(+2/+2 Marines with Shotgun)</i> Fades also become terrible
Fades comes out 3 times later Lerks with +30 res required
Even if you're pro Fade the temptation to wait a little bit longer for Onos is usually too great especially with no real 1 Marine counter for one in the meta currently if your opponents don't own a second chair
You need +10 res to go Lerk and you will get more kills and higher kill streaks with one than a Fade You also get a ranged attack and the ability to go after Marines with jetpacks without requiring an upgrade
About the time that Lerks become obsolete <i>(+2/+2 Marines with Shotgun)</i> Fades also become terrible
Fades comes out 3 times later Lerks with +30 res required
Even if you're pro Fade the temptation to wait a little bit longer for Onos is usually too great especially with no real 1 Marine counter for one in the meta currently if your opponents don't own a second chair<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's totally wrong.
i agree lerk (325 ehp with carapace) is a pain in the ass for marines, but he's totally made of paper... fade (450 ehp with carapace) has 50% more 'effective hit points' not to mention the shadow step and blink make you a lot harder to track.
a few days ago i would have agreed with you about lerk being better than fade... but then i had the misfortune of meeting 2-3 marine players who can actually aim (for the first time, apparently) - where lerk was incredibly difficult in 1v1 against them, fade was still an incredibly easy 1v1 killer.
you can still 'pester' good marine players as your lerk with spikes, but to deal significant damage like your spores or bite - it's far easier and less risky job for the fade... that's just fact.
<!--quoteo(post=2016863:date=Nov 9 2012, 04:54 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 9 2012, 04:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->oh boo hoo you SINGLE PLAYER run into MULTIPLE PLAYERS who focus you down, and you whine about fade being weak because of that?
....
in pub servers as marine i often get 10:1 kdr or greater, just playing normally - i.e. not going 'rambo'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And how is it that you accomplish this feat. I would imagine that past the first 5 minutes if your anything like most good players its because you get a 20res shotgun that lets you take 3-4 skulks at a time. Good luck taking 3-4 (not horrible) marines at a time with a 50res fade. And oh yeah, you lost your shotgun? No problem, if you didn't overextend you can just run back and grab it again.
<!--quoteo(post=2016863:date=Nov 9 2012, 12:54 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 9 2012, 12:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#A0522D--><span style="color:#A0522D"><!--/coloro-->also, if you can't kill a lone shotgun+jetpacker as a fade then you're doing it wrong (against an equally skilled marine), you should be winning those - although if you make a single mistake then he will likely punish you - DO NOT MAKE A MISTAKE this is not a game for newbies. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->in pub servers as marine i often get 10:1 kdr or greater, just playing normally - i.e. not going 'rambo'.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
maybe you should consider that fade is not meant to be a 'budget onos', maybe you're meant to be a 'luxury skulk', this makes sense to me due to the <!--coloro:#FF00FF--><span style="color:#FF00FF"><!--/coloro-->insane mobility<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. let's face it, if the alien team make 4 onos then <!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->marines just have to bunch up and focus down the onos<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - then they have a free win because aliens just blew their entire bank on fatties. contrary to onos, fades can safely linger around close to marines - <!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->blinking in for 1 swipe and then safely retreat because it's almost impossible for a marine to focus/chase you down if you make proper use of your mobility.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
watch almost any competitive game which lasts longer than 10 minutes, you will usually see at least 1 fade (usually you see dropped onos and then 2 other guys save up for fade).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#A0522D--><span style="color:#A0522D"><!--/coloro-->Yeah cos a 30 res marine with 20 of those 100% recyclable should be an even match for a 50 res lifeform yo.... Fade is not an even match for a JP currently.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->Omg... All your points must therefor be right!!! Who gives a ####? I pretty much stopped playing pubs because I am sick of going 50-1 as fade and people telling me fade is OP... Anyone can pubstomp, its not big or clever...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->Yeah ... cos its totally not possible to focus down a fade.. what with, two shots? Thats a lot of focus needed man... those onos are so much easier to focus down, they only require like 16 shots!!! Thats only 8x as many... so much easier!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FF00FF--><span style="color:#FF00FF"><!--/coloro-->Celerity skulks move almost the same speed, celerity lerks might move faster... celerity onos move such a tiny amount slower it makes very little difference. "Fades are fast yo, all the better to run back to the hive and spend 10 years healing with." <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->Ok so fade has to blink in, do literally NO damage and then blink out.... and despite blinking in for 1 swipe at a time... they STILL MIGHT DIE to two shotgun blasts at once.... cool story bro, I think you need to be on the balance team.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Another reason fades were so good in NS1 was because of players getting easy +res every time they got a kill. Skulking wasn't as challenging in NS1 so good players could rack up plenty of kills in short order and then quickly get a fade on the board. Add to that the fact blink needs two hives AND an expensive research and the fade just becomes about worthless.
The only situation where it's warranted to go fade is when aliens have good map control already but marines are making a serious push. Fade is worthless against entrenched marines but is effective at keeping groups of low-lvl marines from making forward progress.
<!--quoteo(post=2016902:date=Nov 9 2012, 01:30 PM:name=statikg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg @ Nov 9 2012, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016902"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And how is it that you accomplish this feat. I would imagine that past the first 5 minutes if your anything like most good players its because you get a 20res shotgun that lets you take 3-4 skulks at a time. Good luck taking 3-4 (not horrible) marines at a time with a 50res fade. And oh yeah, you lost your shotgun? No problem, if you didn't overextend you can just run back and grab it again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not shotgun. just with assault rifle, as long as i don't panic or get fps hiccup it's pretty easy to kill skulk in 1v1.
this is by no means applicable to competitive play, but in pub servers you often encounter skulks 1 at a time - that's easy for AR. it's only really 2 skulks where i've found a shotgun to be more useful against aliens, because you have more firepower before requiring a reload and maybe partially because they think 'there are 2 of us' and attack more recklessly.
i do feel kinda useless against structures unless i have a shotgun though. a single whip just never seems to die to AR :p
i think you missed my point about fade though. you can't enter a room with 4 half decent marines and expect to kill one of the marines. what you can do is shadow step/blink into the room and swipe, then retreat. repeat this until you don't have sustainable hp, then back off to heal up. what this does is delay those marines for AGES - they can't risk emptying their clips on an extractor or hive when there's a fade there. delaying 4 marines is effectively the same as killing 4 marines.
gaining pres from killing marines would be kinda cool, but honestly - if you want to be more effective to your team then you will stay as a fade and just make sure you stay alive more than anything else. when there's a fade around, marines have a tough time purely because they have a dilemma to make every time they decide to 'waste' ammo shooting at a skulk or gorge - the fade could come in while your pants are down and get 3-4 kills EASILY.
i agree lerk (325 ehp with carapace) is a pain in the ass for marines, but he's totally made of paper... fade (450 ehp with carapace) has 50% more 'effective hit points' not to mention the shadow step and blink make you a lot harder to track.
a few days ago i would have agreed with you about lerk being better than fade... but then i had the misfortune of meeting 2-3 marine players who can actually aim (for the first time, apparently) - where lerk was incredibly difficult in 1v1 against them, fade was still an incredibly easy 1v1 killer.
you can still 'pester' good marine players as your lerk with spikes, but to deal significant damage like your spores or bite - it's far easier and less risky job for the fade... that's just fact.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think talking about EHP is that useful when fades are so much larger targets than lerks and lerk gets spike, spore and umbra. The playstyles are similar, the only thing a fade is significantly better for is attacking positions with sentry guns and soloing down extractors, or in certain circumstances when the terrain makes it hard to get good usage of spikes. Effective damage output for a lerk is actually potentially much higher than fade when you consider being able to spike harass shotgunners and doing spike + bite strafing runs vs lmg marines. Not to say that lerks absolutely outclass fades because they don't but the gap is surprisingly slim when you compare the resource cost and the huge marginal benefit of the lerk coming out much earlier in the game when its counter is less common, plus the lerk moving into a powerful support role in the lategame.
I think Fade its awesome but requires some practice and tactical play against better-aiming marines. Wait for marines to relead before going in. Attack from the back of a squad using silence. Blink almost straight towards the marine but stop right next to him so you can hit him in the side. From the marine's point of view you are coming straight towards them so they will fire in that direction and miss. (very good against shotgunners)
When you are playing against noob marines you are laughing your ass off, shredding through squad after squad.
That aside; its practicly the only class that can do some serious damage against jetpackers.
<!--quoteo(post=2016944:date=Nov 9 2012, 02:09 PM:name=RabidWeasel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RabidWeasel @ Nov 9 2012, 02:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think talking about EHP is that useful when fades are so much larger targets than lerks and lerk gets spike, spore and umbra. The playstyles are similar, the only thing a fade is significantly better for is attacking positions with sentry guns and soloing down extractors, or in certain circumstances when the terrain makes it hard to get good usage of spikes. Effective damage output for a lerk is actually potentially much higher than fade when you consider being able to spike harass shotgunners and doing spike + bite strafing runs vs lmg marines. Not to say that lerks absolutely outclass fades because they don't but the gap is surprisingly slim when you compare the resource cost and the huge marginal benefit of the lerk coming out much earlier in the game when its counter is less common, plus the lerk moving into a powerful support role in the lategame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
okay i take back my "not to mention the shadow step and blink make you a lot harder to track" comment, and replace it with "in addition to the shadow step and blink make you a lot harder to track".
you 'almost' teleport as a fade... lerk is fast, but it's still a floating Piñata. i can't really convince you if you're already decided, but from the competitive streams i've watched - fade is waaaaaay more difficult to kill than a lerk and that has effected lerk tactics such that lerk players will rarely even go within 50 metres of 2 or more marines. fade players are confident at poking 3-4 shotgunning jetpackers - albeit with extreme caution (and rightfully so, you can't make kitted out marines free kills for fade).
edit: aliens are no doubt more difficult to learn that marines, especially fade and skulk - but imo that's simply not viable means to call aliens or fade 'underpowered'. it means you get rewarded for putting time into playing alien, in a similar manner to choosing 'normal mode' or 'hard mode' in a deep (awesome) singleplayer game like batman arkham city instead of 'very easy'.
personally, if alien was easy to learn like marine i would be extremely disappointed... because coming from another competitive FPS there's very little to learn except alien speed/movement etc to make them easier to track. on the other hand, alien totally excites me because you have a totally unique gameplay element of AVOID DAMAGE and you get insanely cool movement techniques to learn.
i can hear ghosts from my ut2004 past saying "ffs hireath why are you so hard to hit?"... well now i actually have a reason to tune up my crazy old school dodging skillz, instead of being limited to modern games where your mobility is so slow/clunky that you can't dodge for crap - and just makes your aim poopy.
<!--quoteo(post=2016989:date=Nov 9 2012, 02:44 PM:name=MuckyMcFly)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuckyMcFly @ Nov 9 2012, 02:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016989"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You cant keep comparing Fade to Skulk, they are totally different play styles.
I find Fades useful for taking out the welders of exos, slash/slash!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only difference between Skulk and Fade play styles is that due to upgrades no longer costing res there is almost 0 consequence of dying as skulk. If it still cost res to upgrade your skulk people would play the skulk the EXACT same way people currently play fade.
Attack from an unseen direction, land one bite, leap away, heal up, go again.
<!--quoteo(post=2016964:date=Nov 9 2012, 06:24 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 9 2012, 06:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->okay i take back my "not to mention the shadow step and blink make you a lot harder to track" comment, and replace it with "in addition to the shadow step and blink make you a lot harder to track".
you 'almost' teleport as a fade... lerk is fast, but it's still a floating Piñata. i can't really convince you if you're already decided, but from the competitive streams i've watched - fade is waaaaaay more difficult to kill than a lerk and that has effected lerk tactics such that lerk players will rarely even go within 50 metres of 2 or more marines. fade players are confident at poking 3-4 shotgunning jetpackers - albeit with extreme caution (and rightfully so, you can't make kitted out marines free kills for fade).
edit: aliens are no doubt more difficult to learn that marines, especially fade and skulk - but imo that's simply not viable means to call aliens or fade 'underpowered'. it means you get rewarded for putting time into playing alien, in a similar manner to choosing 'normal mode' or 'hard mode' in a deep (awesome) singleplayer game like batman arkham city instead of 'very easy'.
personally, if alien was easy to learn like marine i would be extremely disappointed... because coming from another competitive FPS there's very little to learn except alien speed/movement etc to make them easier to track. on the other hand, alien totally excites me because you have a totally unique gameplay element of AVOID DAMAGE and you get insanely cool movement techniques to learn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your arguments essentially boil down to, but the fade is good at X so hes not bad like you guys are saying.
The thing is nobody here thinks the fade is useless, in fact I would wager a guess that the majority of the people in the thread are excellent fades by general population standards. That isn't the same as being balanced. Balance requires that in the context of the entire game, especially in comparison to the other teams advanced options and your own alternative options, that the fade is worth its cost. Basically most people are comparing it to the much cheaper shotgun (20res, recycleable) and the lerk or onos.
1) The shotgun makes a skilled marine basically equally effective at killing the other side. A JP/SG makes you equal. All this for MUCH LESS RES.
2) When you fade you basically will never get a pres onos.
3) The Lerk comes out much sooner, can do similar damage and is much cheaper. The fade can take more damage, but is also a larger target and comes out when the marines have better weapons and ups.
Before I begin, I would like to point out that I have no prior NS1 experience, and I only started playing NS2 in September this year, so take this post for what it's worth. I am not trying to convey absolute truth, merely my take on the topic at hand. This is my experience with the Fade, alright?
So, since patch 225-226, I've played almost entirely as Aliens, and before that I played a lot of aliens as well. Now, up until release I played primarily as a Skulk (gotta love the wallclimbing, Xenomorph-cosplaying little git) and only really started playing Fade recently.
I do agree that the Fade is very fragile, especially against shotguns, and to a lesser extent, high tier rifles. However, this does not render the Fade useless, only because he can't tank. Here are some of the ways I use the Fade, and how good it can actually be: - Against lone-wolf marines trying to snipe your upgrades/Harvesters, the Fade is excellent. He can quickly disengage from whatever it is he's doing and cruise back and support where said Lone-wolf is harassing you, appearing from behind and making short work of him. - Sneaking around marine hit squads and start harassing them even before they make it to your hive location. Sure, you might not get the kill/s at all times, but you are forcing the marine players to react to you, not the other way around. Besides, a hurt Marine is a less effective Marine. He either needs to heal/get medpacks from the commander, which takes attention from the Comm, or he's an easier target for your teammates. This brings me to my next point. - Synergy. Use your teammates. And I don't mean "let them die and reap all the glory". I mean, when say, an Onos rush into a room with marines, use this distraction that the quite frankly HUGE target creates, to blink/shadowstep/sneak in and start hitting the marines from behind, while they are trying to take down the Onos. Again, you are forcing the Marines to react to YOUR actions. - In straight up engagements where you don't get to just sneak in and start hitting from behind, the Fade's mobility allows him to dictate the pace of combat. You can dodge and relocate super-fast, again, forcing the marines to react. Any other way is just playing him wrong in my opinion. The Fade works best outside of direct, head-on engagements where the Marine sees you before the first swipe. Besides, if things go downhill, hopefully you've saved up enough energy to be able to get out of dodge. I know I don't at all times, but it's the nature of the game.
And in closing, I quite frankly don't understand the idea that some players/posters have that a fade should be able to 1v1 <Class X, Y or Z> by the sole virtue of him costing 50 points. The aliens STILL need to play as a team and use the synergy between various life-forms to succeed. Even the Onos can't survive for long on his own, without backup. I don't see why the Fade should. Use the Fade's strengths to your advantage, use that mobility to confuse marines. And again, this is not in any way the ABSOLUTE truth, it's just how I found the Fade to perform the best.
tl;dr, don't engage shotgunners head on, force them to reposition and re-aim, run away if necessary and come again another time. If you engage 3 shotgunners with decent aim on your own, you're gonna have a bad time.
<!--quoteo(post=2016996:date=Nov 9 2012, 02:50 PM:name=statikg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg @ Nov 9 2012, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your arguments essentially boil down to, but the fade is good at X so hes not bad like you guys are saying.
The thing is nobody here thinks the fade is useless, in fact I would wager a guess that the majority of the people in the thread are excellent fades by general population standards. That isn't the same as being balanced. Balance requires that in the context of the entire game, especially in comparison to the other teams advanced options and your own alternative options, that the fade is worth its cost. Basically most people are comparing it to the much cheaper shotgun (20res, recycleable) and the lerk or onos.
1) The shotgun makes a skilled marine basically equally effective at killing the other side. A JP/SG makes you equal. All this for MUCH LESS RES.
2) When you fade you basically will never get a pres onos.
3) The Lerk comes out much sooner, can do similar damage and is much cheaper. The fade can take more damage, but is also a larger target and comes out when the marines have better weapons and ups.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ermm...
1) sorry but this doesn't comply with my pub experience or any of the ~10 hours of competitive footage i've watched. take the example fade (50 res) versus 2 shotgun marines with 1 jetpack (50 res), the fade won't win 100% of the time - but it's definitely significantly greater than 50% win for the fade if you use hit and run and good evasive techniques.
2) see 3
3) are you implying that lerk is more effective than fade against upgraded marines? because it's not. anyway, the game is not meant to be linear progression where every alien strives to evolve from slulk > lerk > fade > onos in any given game. it's my understanding that all lifeforms are intended to have a viable role from their expected 'start point' to the end of the game. this corresponds with most competitive gameplay i've seen - aside from the onos rush tactic.
Yes, I feel the Fade can use a small buff along with an Onos nerf. Since the adrenaline and blink nerfs, it seems to have become much more fragile than it used to be. I believe a slight buff to its health and perhaps to adrenaline would put it in a much better place.
1) sorry but this doesn't comply with my pub experience or any of the ~10 hours of competitive footage i've watched. take the example fade (50 res) versus 2 shotgun marines with 1 jetpack (50 res), the fade won't win 100% of the time - but it's definitely significantly greater than 50% win for the fade if you use hit and run and good evasive techniques.
3) are you implying that lerk is more effective than fade against upgraded marines? because it's not. anyway, the game is not meant to be linear progression where every alien strives to evolve from slulk > lerk > fade > onos in any given game. it's my understanding that all lifeforms are intended to have a viable role from their expected 'start point' to the end of the game. this corresponds with most competitive gameplay i've seen - aside from the onos rush tactic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe I slightly exaggerated the chances of a single no JP SGer v a fade but in terms of SG v skulks compared to fade v lmgs it is definitely not exaggerated. To say that 2 shotgunners v 1 fade will have the fade winning more then 50% of the time is pub experience. Maybe saying that the fade will escape more then 50% of the time without a kill would be more accurate. This is verging on theorizing though because how often in competitive play do you see fades engaging 2 shotguns by themselves, basically never (because of the high risk of death).
I am not implying that the lerk is more effective than a fade against unupgraded marines in the absolute. I am saying that within the context of the game, since you can become a lerk much sooner when marines are typcially much weaker AND also for 60% of the price, it is better for value then the fade. Of course the game is more complicated then that and once the game progresses the lerk becomes relatively weaker so stronger life forms like the fade are needed, but again that doesnt mean that the way the fade is is balanced.
<!--quoteo(post=2017030:date=Nov 9 2012, 03:17 PM:name=statikg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg @ Nov 9 2012, 03:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017030"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe I slightly exaggerated the chances of a single no JP SGer v a fade but in terms of SG v skulks compared to fade v lmgs it is definitely not exaggerated. To say that 2 shotgunners v 1 fade will have the fade winning more then 50% of the time is pub experience. Maybe saying that the fade will escape more then 50% of the time without a kill would be more accurate. This is verging on theorizing though because how often in competitive play do you see fades engaging 2 shotguns by themselves, basically never (because of the high risk of death).
I am not implying that the lerk is more effective than a fade against unupgraded marines in the absolute. I am saying that within the context of the game, since you can become a lerk much sooner when marines are typcially much weaker AND also for 60% of the price, it is better for value then the fade. Of course the game is more complicated then that and once the game progresses the lerk becomes relatively weaker so stronger life forms like the fade are needed, but again that doesnt mean that the way the fade is is balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i believe that skulk is a wildcard.
a skulk 'can' be effective in 1:1 (not necessarily 1v1, because if your target has 100% focus on you then it's very difficult, meanwhile in a group fight you can often target a vulnerable/isolated marine) even in the endgame. that 30 res marine dying to 0 res skulk is compensaton for losing your 50 res fade.
but anyone who says that skulk is comparable to lerk or fade (PsympleJester) is just talking crap. in terms of res cost - lerk and fade are okay compared to marine costs. fade is only noticeably 'weak' when you compare it to fast onos, which is likely the route of the problem as onos is ridiculously hard for marines to deal with before jetpacks or weapons 2-3 etc.
ergo comparing fade to the current onos is as misguided as comparing your phallus to that of a porn star.
The Fade is not worthless as some people suggest, but its current role in the game is incredibly diminished compared to what many people feel it should be. In NS1 the Fade was the linchpin of the whole team, it was the primary combat lifeform of the mid/late-game. Now it's just sort of a fun lifeform you can play if you really want, but the team would do just fine if nobody bothered. That's just not satisfying. The other lifeforms all feel like great assets to the team, the Fade just feels like a luxury.
I can't really put my finger on the Fade precisely. It is a potent lifeform for sure, but often times I feel I could do much more as a Skulk, simply because I don't have to fear dying so much. Fades are not very durable (300/150 in NS1, 250/100 in NS2) and losing one represents a huge loss of resources for you and your team, as just 25 more res could buy you a far, far more dangerous lifeform.
While comparing things to how they were in NS1 isn't necessarily fair, I can't help but point out how Fades used to get Blink with the first Hive and the second gave them Metabolize, which I feel is likely the defining feature of how Fades 'feel' in the game. If you didn't take one down the instant you saw it, he could retreat and self-heal back to full in no time - and this is also what made it such a powerful hit-and-run class: if you didn't plan for the Fade, focus fire him and block his exit, he would keep coming back over and over.
This time around, Metabolize isn't here. Fades take time to heal back to full; even with Crags around - which are quite frankly a joke compared to Defense Chambers from NS1 - the hit-and-run mechanic is somewhat lacking. (Tongue in cheek point: Fades have less health now and thus heal faster, so they can hit-and-run pretty well, ehheheheh...)
Of course, since the subject of base assault was brought up, Fades also lack the tool they had in NS1 for breaking down turtling: the Acid Rocket. I believe UWE has had the stance that Acid Rocket is not making a comeback, but I can't help but wonder... is Vortex really any contest to it? We're talking about the game ending third Hive abilities here, after all.
Comments
Its an alien that takes a lot of skill to play, hes the run in, slash slash and run out.
Remember dont waste your p-res untill your commander has blink up, without it a fade is useless.
But would that make any difference?
- the onos allows aliens to attack marine bases. Mid/late game, this is absolutely essential for aliens to win, or recover a game.
- the fade allows aliens to kill lone/duo marines that aren't in bases. This is not essential, in fact it's not even a footnote in a winning strategy.
The fade is a tactical choice by the player, they may prefer a lerk or a skulk. (it's akin to buying a shotgun rather than a GL or a flamethrower, or buying a pack of mines).
The onos is a strategic choice, which is being made by players, whereas it should be made by the commander.
Extreme solution:
- remove p-res onos from the game entirely. The onos is a strategic resource and can only be bought by the commander with strategic resources. Remove 'fast onos'.
- reduce the fade to 40 res (or something of that order), or change the rate of pres income.
- the onos allows aliens to attack marine bases. Mid/late game, this is absolutely essential for aliens to win, or recover a game.
- the fade allows aliens to kill lone/duo marines that aren't in bases. This is not essential, in fact it's not even a footnote in a winning strategy.
The fade is a tactical choice by the player, they may prefer a lerk or a skulk. (it's akin to buying a shotgun rather than a GL or a flamethrower, or buying a pack of mines).
The onos is a strategic choice, which is being made by players, whereas it should be made by the commander.
Extreme solution:
- remove p-res onos from the game entirely. The onos is a strategic resource and can only be bought by the commander with strategic resources. Remove 'fast onos'.
- reduce the fade to 40 res (or something of that order), or change the rate of pres income.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this game is won by player skill and resource control, the fade can perpetualy keep marines from expanding to new RTs from early to late game no problem.
I see a lot of people saying fade is great for 1v1s, etc etc. Yes. It's pretty nice for 1v1s, you might even kill a shotgunner that way (but probably not if he has a jetpack). But really, when do marines attack in ones? And aren't skulks supposed to win most of their 1v1s anyway? A 50pres lifeform for something whose role is to take out people who are already skulkbait seems bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh boo hoo you SINGLE PLAYER run into MULTIPLE PLAYERS who focus you down, and you whine about fade being weak because of that?
also, if you can't kill a lone shotgun+jetpacker as a fade then you're doing it wrong (against an equally skilled marine), you should be winning those - although if you make a single mistake then he will likely punish you - DO NOT MAKE A MISTAKE this is not a game for newbies.
btw skulk is not meant to win 1:1, unless the marine(s) are distracted. in fact, the only times i ever die to single skulk when i'm playing as marine is when i make a stupid mistake (let him sneak up on me) or totally fail at aiming. admittedly, it does happen pretty often because i'm bad and my fps is dodgy too. in pub servers as marine i often get 10:1 kdr or greater, just playing normally - i.e. not going 'rambo'.
maybe you should consider that fade is not meant to be a 'budget onos', maybe you're meant to be a 'luxury skulk', this makes sense to me due to the insane mobility. let's face it, if the alien team make 4 onos then marines just have to bunch up and focus down the onos - then they have a free win because aliens just blew their entire bank on fatties. contrary to onos, fades can safely linger around close to marines - blinking in for 1 swipe and then safely retreat because it's almost impossible for a marine to focus/chase you down if you make proper use of your mobility.
watch almost any competitive game which lasts longer than 10 minutes, you will usually see at least 1 fade (usually you see dropped onos and then 2 other guys save up for fade).
You need +10 res to go Lerk and you will get more kills and higher kill streaks with one than a Fade
You also get a ranged attack and the ability to go after Marines with jetpacks without requiring an upgrade
About the time that Lerks become obsolete <i>(+2/+2 Marines with Shotgun)</i> Fades also become terrible
Fades comes out 3 times later Lerks with +30 res required
Even if you're pro Fade the temptation to wait a little bit longer for Onos is usually too great especially with no real 1 Marine counter for one in the meta currently if your opponents don't own a second chair
You need +10 res to go Lerk and you will get more kills and higher kill streaks with one than a Fade
You also get a ranged attack and the ability to go after Marines with jetpacks without requiring an upgrade
About the time that Lerks become obsolete <i>(+2/+2 Marines with Shotgun)</i> Fades also become terrible
Fades comes out 3 times later Lerks with +30 res required
Even if you're pro Fade the temptation to wait a little bit longer for Onos is usually too great especially with no real 1 Marine counter for one in the meta currently if your opponents don't own a second chair<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's totally wrong.
i agree lerk (325 ehp with carapace) is a pain in the ass for marines, but he's totally made of paper... fade (450 ehp with carapace) has 50% more 'effective hit points' not to mention the shadow step and blink make you a lot harder to track.
a few days ago i would have agreed with you about lerk being better than fade... but then i had the misfortune of meeting 2-3 marine players who can actually aim (for the first time, apparently) - where lerk was incredibly difficult in 1v1 against them, fade was still an incredibly easy 1v1 killer.
you can still 'pester' good marine players as your lerk with spikes, but to deal significant damage like your spores or bite - it's far easier and less risky job for the fade... that's just fact.
....
in pub servers as marine i often get 10:1 kdr or greater, just playing normally - i.e. not going 'rambo'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And how is it that you accomplish this feat. I would imagine that past the first 5 minutes if your anything like most good players its because you get a 20res shotgun that lets you take 3-4 skulks at a time. Good luck taking 3-4 (not horrible) marines at a time with a 50res fade. And oh yeah, you lost your shotgun? No problem, if you didn't overextend you can just run back and grab it again.
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->in pub servers as marine i often get 10:1 kdr or greater, just playing normally - i.e. not going 'rambo'.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
maybe you should consider that fade is not meant to be a 'budget onos', maybe you're meant to be a 'luxury skulk', this makes sense to me due to the <!--coloro:#FF00FF--><span style="color:#FF00FF"><!--/coloro-->insane mobility<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. let's face it, if the alien team make 4 onos then <!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->marines just have to bunch up and focus down the onos<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - then they have a free win because aliens just blew their entire bank on fatties. contrary to onos, fades can safely linger around close to marines - <!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->blinking in for 1 swipe and then safely retreat because it's almost impossible for a marine to focus/chase you down if you make proper use of your mobility.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
watch almost any competitive game which lasts longer than 10 minutes, you will usually see at least 1 fade (usually you see dropped onos and then 2 other guys save up for fade).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#A0522D--><span style="color:#A0522D"><!--/coloro-->Yeah cos a 30 res marine with 20 of those 100% recyclable should be an even match for a 50 res lifeform yo.... Fade is not an even match for a JP currently.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->Omg... All your points must therefor be right!!! Who gives a ####?
I pretty much stopped playing pubs because I am sick of going 50-1 as fade and people telling me fade is OP...
Anyone can pubstomp, its not big or clever...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->Yeah ... cos its totally not possible to focus down a fade.. what with, two shots?
Thats a lot of focus needed man... those onos are so much easier to focus down, they only require like 16 shots!!! Thats only 8x as many... so much easier!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FF00FF--><span style="color:#FF00FF"><!--/coloro-->Celerity skulks move almost the same speed, celerity lerks might move faster... celerity onos move such a tiny amount slower it makes very little difference. "Fades are fast yo, all the better to run back to the hive and spend 10 years healing with." <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->Ok so fade has to blink in, do literally NO damage and then blink out.... and despite blinking in for 1 swipe at a time... they STILL MIGHT DIE to two shotgun blasts at once.... cool story bro, I think you need to be on the balance team.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The only situation where it's warranted to go fade is when aliens have good map control already but marines are making a serious push. Fade is worthless against entrenched marines but is effective at keeping groups of low-lvl marines from making forward progress.
would be interesting to see what has happened to say a cara-celerity fade w/blink 'effectiveness' over the past few patches.
e.g., avg/dev lifetime, avg/dev kills - if there is enough data this could be broken out by weap & weap/armo level.
a comparative histo of lifetime would be good too. ie see count of relative short lifetime/wasted fades
hard data would be useful for benchmarking & debate.
----------------------
after watching election coverage I like looking at graphs :)
not shotgun. just with assault rifle, as long as i don't panic or get fps hiccup it's pretty easy to kill skulk in 1v1.
this is by no means applicable to competitive play, but in pub servers you often encounter skulks 1 at a time - that's easy for AR. it's only really 2 skulks where i've found a shotgun to be more useful against aliens, because you have more firepower before requiring a reload and maybe partially because they think 'there are 2 of us' and attack more recklessly.
i do feel kinda useless against structures unless i have a shotgun though. a single whip just never seems to die to AR :p
i think you missed my point about fade though. you can't enter a room with 4 half decent marines and expect to kill one of the marines. what you can do is shadow step/blink into the room and swipe, then retreat. repeat this until you don't have sustainable hp, then back off to heal up. what this does is delay those marines for AGES - they can't risk emptying their clips on an extractor or hive when there's a fade there. delaying 4 marines is effectively the same as killing 4 marines.
gaining pres from killing marines would be kinda cool, but honestly - if you want to be more effective to your team then you will stay as a fade and just make sure you stay alive more than anything else. when there's a fade around, marines have a tough time purely because they have a dilemma to make every time they decide to 'waste' ammo shooting at a skulk or gorge - the fade could come in while your pants are down and get 3-4 kills EASILY.
i agree lerk (325 ehp with carapace) is a pain in the ass for marines, but he's totally made of paper... fade (450 ehp with carapace) has 50% more 'effective hit points' not to mention the shadow step and blink make you a lot harder to track.
a few days ago i would have agreed with you about lerk being better than fade... but then i had the misfortune of meeting 2-3 marine players who can actually aim (for the first time, apparently) - where lerk was incredibly difficult in 1v1 against them, fade was still an incredibly easy 1v1 killer.
you can still 'pester' good marine players as your lerk with spikes, but to deal significant damage like your spores or bite - it's far easier and less risky job for the fade... that's just fact.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think talking about EHP is that useful when fades are so much larger targets than lerks and lerk gets spike, spore and umbra. The playstyles are similar, the only thing a fade is significantly better for is attacking positions with sentry guns and soloing down extractors, or in certain circumstances when the terrain makes it hard to get good usage of spikes. Effective damage output for a lerk is actually potentially much higher than fade when you consider being able to spike harass shotgunners and doing spike + bite strafing runs vs lmg marines. Not to say that lerks absolutely outclass fades because they don't but the gap is surprisingly slim when you compare the resource cost and the huge marginal benefit of the lerk coming out much earlier in the game when its counter is less common, plus the lerk moving into a powerful support role in the lategame.
Wait for marines to relead before going in.
Attack from the back of a squad using silence.
Blink almost straight towards the marine but stop right next to him so you can hit him in the side. From the marine's point of view you are coming straight towards them so they will fire in that direction and miss. (very good against shotgunners)
When you are playing against noob marines you are laughing your ass off, shredding through squad after squad.
That aside; its practicly the only class that can do some serious damage against jetpackers.
okay i take back my "not to mention the shadow step and blink make you a lot harder to track" comment, and replace it with "in addition to the shadow step and blink make you a lot harder to track".
you 'almost' teleport as a fade... lerk is fast, but it's still a floating Piñata. i can't really convince you if you're already decided, but from the competitive streams i've watched - fade is waaaaaay more difficult to kill than a lerk and that has effected lerk tactics such that lerk players will rarely even go within 50 metres of 2 or more marines. fade players are confident at poking 3-4 shotgunning jetpackers - albeit with extreme caution (and rightfully so, you can't make kitted out marines free kills for fade).
edit: aliens are no doubt more difficult to learn that marines, especially fade and skulk - but imo that's simply not viable means to call aliens or fade 'underpowered'. it means you get rewarded for putting time into playing alien, in a similar manner to choosing 'normal mode' or 'hard mode' in a deep (awesome) singleplayer game like batman arkham city instead of 'very easy'.
personally, if alien was easy to learn like marine i would be extremely disappointed... because coming from another competitive FPS there's very little to learn except alien speed/movement etc to make them easier to track. on the other hand, alien totally excites me because you have a totally unique gameplay element of AVOID DAMAGE and you get insanely cool movement techniques to learn.
i can hear ghosts from my ut2004 past saying "ffs hireath why are you so hard to hit?"... well now i actually have a reason to tune up my crazy old school dodging skillz, instead of being limited to modern games where your mobility is so slow/clunky that you can't dodge for crap - and just makes your aim poopy.
I find Fades useful for taking out the welders of exos, slash/slash!
I find Fades useful for taking out the welders of exos, slash/slash!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only difference between Skulk and Fade play styles is that due to upgrades no longer costing res there is almost 0 consequence of dying as skulk. If it still cost res to upgrade your skulk people would play the skulk the EXACT same way people currently play fade.
Attack from an unseen direction, land one bite, leap away, heal up, go again.
you 'almost' teleport as a fade... lerk is fast, but it's still a floating Piñata. i can't really convince you if you're already decided, but from the competitive streams i've watched - fade is waaaaaay more difficult to kill than a lerk and that has effected lerk tactics such that lerk players will rarely even go within 50 metres of 2 or more marines. fade players are confident at poking 3-4 shotgunning jetpackers - albeit with extreme caution (and rightfully so, you can't make kitted out marines free kills for fade).
edit: aliens are no doubt more difficult to learn that marines, especially fade and skulk - but imo that's simply not viable means to call aliens or fade 'underpowered'. it means you get rewarded for putting time into playing alien, in a similar manner to choosing 'normal mode' or 'hard mode' in a deep (awesome) singleplayer game like batman arkham city instead of 'very easy'.
personally, if alien was easy to learn like marine i would be extremely disappointed... because coming from another competitive FPS there's very little to learn except alien speed/movement etc to make them easier to track. on the other hand, alien totally excites me because you have a totally unique gameplay element of AVOID DAMAGE and you get insanely cool movement techniques to learn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your arguments essentially boil down to, but the fade is good at X so hes not bad like you guys are saying.
The thing is nobody here thinks the fade is useless, in fact I would wager a guess that the majority of the people in the thread are excellent fades by general population standards. That isn't the same as being balanced. Balance requires that in the context of the entire game, especially in comparison to the other teams advanced options and your own alternative options, that the fade is worth its cost. Basically most people are comparing it to the much cheaper shotgun (20res, recycleable) and the lerk or onos.
1) The shotgun makes a skilled marine basically equally effective at killing the other side. A JP/SG makes you equal. All this for MUCH LESS RES.
2) When you fade you basically will never get a pres onos.
3) The Lerk comes out much sooner, can do similar damage and is much cheaper. The fade can take more damage, but is also a larger target and comes out when the marines have better weapons and ups.
So, since patch 225-226, I've played almost entirely as Aliens, and before that I played a lot of aliens as well. Now, up until release I played primarily as a Skulk (gotta love the wallclimbing, Xenomorph-cosplaying little git) and only really started playing Fade recently.
I do agree that the Fade is very fragile, especially against shotguns, and to a lesser extent, high tier rifles. However, this does not render the Fade useless, only because he can't tank. Here are some of the ways I use the Fade, and how good it can actually be:
- Against lone-wolf marines trying to snipe your upgrades/Harvesters, the Fade is excellent. He can quickly disengage from whatever it is he's doing and cruise back and support where said Lone-wolf is harassing you, appearing from behind and making short work of him.
- Sneaking around marine hit squads and start harassing them even before they make it to your hive location. Sure, you might not get the kill/s at all times, but you are forcing the marine players to react to you, not the other way around. Besides, a hurt Marine is a less effective Marine. He either needs to heal/get medpacks from the commander, which takes attention from the Comm, or he's an easier target for your teammates. This brings me to my next point.
- Synergy. Use your teammates. And I don't mean "let them die and reap all the glory". I mean, when say, an Onos rush into a room with marines, use this distraction that the quite frankly HUGE target creates, to blink/shadowstep/sneak in and start hitting the marines from behind, while they are trying to take down the Onos. Again, you are forcing the Marines to react to YOUR actions.
- In straight up engagements where you don't get to just sneak in and start hitting from behind, the Fade's mobility allows him to dictate the pace of combat. You can dodge and relocate super-fast, again, forcing the marines to react. Any other way is just playing him wrong in my opinion. The Fade works best outside of direct, head-on engagements where the Marine sees you before the first swipe. Besides, if things go downhill, hopefully you've saved up enough energy to be able to get out of dodge. I know I don't at all times, but it's the nature of the game.
And in closing, I quite frankly don't understand the idea that some players/posters have that a fade should be able to 1v1 <Class X, Y or Z> by the sole virtue of him costing 50 points. The aliens STILL need to play as a team and use the synergy between various life-forms to succeed. Even the Onos can't survive for long on his own, without backup. I don't see why the Fade should.
Use the Fade's strengths to your advantage, use that mobility to confuse marines.
And again, this is not in any way the ABSOLUTE truth, it's just how I found the Fade to perform the best.
tl;dr, don't engage shotgunners head on, force them to reposition and re-aim, run away if necessary and come again another time. If you engage 3 shotgunners with decent aim on your own, you're gonna have a bad time.
Edit; Some spelling and grammar
The thing is nobody here thinks the fade is useless, in fact I would wager a guess that the majority of the people in the thread are excellent fades by general population standards. That isn't the same as being balanced. Balance requires that in the context of the entire game, especially in comparison to the other teams advanced options and your own alternative options, that the fade is worth its cost. Basically most people are comparing it to the much cheaper shotgun (20res, recycleable) and the lerk or onos.
1) The shotgun makes a skilled marine basically equally effective at killing the other side. A JP/SG makes you equal. All this for MUCH LESS RES.
2) When you fade you basically will never get a pres onos.
3) The Lerk comes out much sooner, can do similar damage and is much cheaper. The fade can take more damage, but is also a larger target and comes out when the marines have better weapons and ups.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ermm...
1) sorry but this doesn't comply with my pub experience or any of the ~10 hours of competitive footage i've watched. take the example fade (50 res) versus 2 shotgun marines with 1 jetpack (50 res), the fade won't win 100% of the time - but it's definitely significantly greater than 50% win for the fade if you use hit and run and good evasive techniques.
2) see 3
3) are you implying that lerk is more effective than fade against upgraded marines? because it's not. anyway, the game is not meant to be linear progression where every alien strives to evolve from slulk > lerk > fade > onos in any given game. it's my understanding that all lifeforms are intended to have a viable role from their expected 'start point' to the end of the game. this corresponds with most competitive gameplay i've seen - aside from the onos rush tactic.
1) sorry but this doesn't comply with my pub experience or any of the ~10 hours of competitive footage i've watched. take the example fade (50 res) versus 2 shotgun marines with 1 jetpack (50 res), the fade won't win 100% of the time - but it's definitely significantly greater than 50% win for the fade if you use hit and run and good evasive techniques.
3) are you implying that lerk is more effective than fade against upgraded marines? because it's not. anyway, the game is not meant to be linear progression where every alien strives to evolve from slulk > lerk > fade > onos in any given game. it's my understanding that all lifeforms are intended to have a viable role from their expected 'start point' to the end of the game. this corresponds with most competitive gameplay i've seen - aside from the onos rush tactic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe I slightly exaggerated the chances of a single no JP SGer v a fade but in terms of SG v skulks compared to fade v lmgs it is definitely not exaggerated. To say that 2 shotgunners v 1 fade will have the fade winning more then 50% of the time is pub experience. Maybe saying that the fade will escape more then 50% of the time without a kill would be more accurate. This is verging on theorizing though because how often in competitive play do you see fades engaging 2 shotguns by themselves, basically never (because of the high risk of death).
I am not implying that the lerk is more effective than a fade against unupgraded marines in the absolute. I am saying that within the context of the game, since you can become a lerk much sooner when marines are typcially much weaker AND also for 60% of the price, it is better for value then the fade. Of course the game is more complicated then that and once the game progresses the lerk becomes relatively weaker so stronger life forms like the fade are needed, but again that doesnt mean that the way the fade is is balanced.
I am not implying that the lerk is more effective than a fade against unupgraded marines in the absolute. I am saying that within the context of the game, since you can become a lerk much sooner when marines are typcially much weaker AND also for 60% of the price, it is better for value then the fade. Of course the game is more complicated then that and once the game progresses the lerk becomes relatively weaker so stronger life forms like the fade are needed, but again that doesnt mean that the way the fade is is balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i believe that skulk is a wildcard.
a skulk 'can' be effective in 1:1 (not necessarily 1v1, because if your target has 100% focus on you then it's very difficult, meanwhile in a group fight you can often target a vulnerable/isolated marine) even in the endgame. that 30 res marine dying to 0 res skulk is compensaton for losing your 50 res fade.
but anyone who says that skulk is comparable to lerk or fade (PsympleJester) is just talking crap. in terms of res cost - lerk and fade are okay compared to marine costs. fade is only noticeably 'weak' when you compare it to fast onos, which is likely the route of the problem as onos is ridiculously hard for marines to deal with before jetpacks or weapons 2-3 etc.
ergo comparing fade to the current onos is as misguided as comparing your phallus to that of a porn star.
While comparing things to how they were in NS1 isn't necessarily fair, I can't help but point out how Fades used to get Blink with the first Hive and the second gave them Metabolize, which I feel is likely the defining feature of how Fades 'feel' in the game. If you didn't take one down the instant you saw it, he could retreat and self-heal back to full in no time - and this is also what made it such a powerful hit-and-run class: if you didn't plan for the Fade, focus fire him and block his exit, he would keep coming back over and over.
This time around, Metabolize isn't here. Fades take time to heal back to full; even with Crags around - which are quite frankly a joke compared to Defense Chambers from NS1 - the hit-and-run mechanic is somewhat lacking. (Tongue in cheek point: Fades have less health now and thus heal faster, so they can hit-and-run pretty well, ehheheheh...)
Of course, since the subject of base assault was brought up, Fades also lack the tool they had in NS1 for breaking down turtling: the Acid Rocket. I believe UWE has had the stance that Acid Rocket is not making a comeback, but I can't help but wonder... is Vortex really any contest to it? We're talking about the game ending third Hive abilities here, after all.