<!--quoteo(post=2021989:date=Nov 13 2012, 04:41 AM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Nov 13 2012, 04:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021989"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make Alien T1.5-2 better, move Onos to where it belongs. Late game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The real question as pointed out is why only Onos drops and not say Fade Drops? Or even Lerk Drops.
Because nothing else can survive pressure teams with shotguns reliably. Because currently Aliens do not have a potent T1.5-T2 combat lifeform. Sure you've got the exceptional high-skilled players who roll with Fades all day, but that's a high-skill ceiling and high-skill floor unit that can easily be brought down by a few well-placed shotguns (which all Marines coincidentally will have).
It's a problem with the power balance in the T2 region of the game. Locking the Onos behind another barrier won't fix it imo.
<!--quoteo(post=2022501:date=Nov 13 2012, 02:23 PM:name=Bad Mojo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bad Mojo @ Nov 13 2012, 02:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022501"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's great to see the competitive community provide their input in a helpful, respectful way.
I think we can all agree that we need to focus on 6v6 competitive game balance, which currently accounts for the vast majority of NS2 play. We also wouldn't want to upset our superior, Locklear here. The consequences might prove very unfortunate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't have a lot of patience for people that can't keep up with the topic facts. It's blatant ignorance to say that it isn't an issue. So to continue posting that it isn't an issue doesn't help this discussion at all.
This issue does not only apply to 6v6 but it's where the most competent players are and thus where the 6m Onos appears most. (every game)
Most public Commanders are not aware of the strategy or aren't competent enough to execute it.
Your level of respect is far worse than mine, I'm simply explaining why he's wrong.. and you're mocking me for doing it.
<!--quoteo(post=2022583:date=Nov 13 2012, 03:42 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Nov 13 2012, 03:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022583"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The real question as pointed out is why only Onos drops and not say Fade Drops? Or even Lerk Drops.
Because nothing else can survive pressure teams with shotguns reliably. Because currently Aliens do not have a potent T1.5-T2 combat lifeform. Sure you've got the exceptional high-skilled players who roll with Fades all day, but that's a high-skill ceiling and high-skill floor unit that can easily be brought down by a few well-placed shotguns (which all Marines coincidentally will have).
It's a problem with the power balance in the T2 region of the game. Locking the Onos behind another barrier won't fix it imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tres Drops are broken anyways. My team uses 30Tres Lerk at the start of the game to a similar effect of the Onos. When we play well enough, it gives us a ridiculous edge against no upgrade marines.
It wasn't really thoughtful as far as changes go, just a way for "commanders to dump resource" and the consequence is that random lifeforms appear at random times in the game and scale really poorly or scale REALLY well, because of that. (Onos scales extremely well in early periods of the game) Shotguns are broken also, they are randomly doing 220 damage or 22 based on the corner the spread goes to.
Fades should be getting their movement back soon though, so then we will see 10m Fade spam again, which goes back to one of the game's biggest problems imo for Aliens, and that is a real reason to get different lifeforms and have diversity.
Fade spam can just demolish Marines and their bases also with no real downside to spamming them.
Right. Fixing the onos problem doesn't solve the problem with alien play. Most of the competitive players ARE NOT suggesting simply removal of tres onos drop. We're suggesting that UWE removes the fast onos drops and fixes the obvious mid-game void. There are many ideas of how to do this including but not limited to: fixing of fade mechanics (blink->swipe delay bug), increasing of fade health, changing of lerk mechanics (think ranged spores), removal of RFD (and potentially addition of RFK even though it won't happen), and improvements to skulk movement.
Locklear's post wasn't disrespectful or unwarranted. If you don't have a problem with onos drops in pub play it's simply because you've been playing with blissfully ignorant people. It won't stay that way. Many pubs are already complaining about the onos drops because more and more people are learning about it. The game is new, but people will do what works. And fast onos drops are unfair in both pubs and competitive play. It's not a pub vs competitive thing.
<!--quoteo(post=2021972:date=Nov 13 2012, 04:20 AM:name=Safewood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Safewood @ Nov 13 2012, 04:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021972"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>@ Omar - The Wire:</b> That's a great idea, I like it quite well. It's easier to follow, and solves its early game presence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Glad you agree. I re-quoted my post so I'd hopefully hear a downside/critique to it.
<!--quoteo(post=2021606:date=Nov 12 2012, 07:36 PM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Nov 12 2012, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps scale the Onos's health/damage to how many mature hives there are. Make a 2 hive Onos 40%* what it currently is, 3rd hive Onos 20%* what it currently is and 4th hive Onos what it is right now.
*Those percentages and numbers listed are pulled out of a hat, obviously they would need tweaking. I still feel the concept is sound.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
UWE doesn't want scaling, though. They've repeatedly refused to tie lifeform's health/armory scaling to hive count and I don't know why hive maturation + count would yield a different answer.
If you're trying to present solutions that UWE might actually adopt, your suggestion is a lost cause. It's like asking for bhop back -- UWE already said NO.
Aliens need a way to scale better, the upgrades are just bad. Celerity/Carapace/Silence every game.
Maybe if all the upgrades became good and balanced they wouldn't need something but right now it feels like you just want to be spamming the most efficient lifeform.. because the others are hardly a benefit to have.
Which I think is a multi-faceted issue that goes into several different things including: 1. Alien upgrade system/scaling isn't good 2. Tres lifeforms screws up lifeform timing and the economy 3. when Fades go back to old 10myouloseFades, they will be spammed and become too good again, I think the core issue was the fact that 3+ Fades was retarded (missing a mechanic that discourages it)
to fix spam you need either that, or a hard counter that enforces the team to not spam. Otherwise imo, it will just be shotgun spam vs Fade spam every game.. fun.
I've read UWE doesn't want hard counters though, so something else needs to be employed to discourage the tech explosion lifeform spam imo.
But it all goes back to the fact that the game isn't balanced well enough atm to do anything but the same thing every game for Aliens. Marines actually do have a nice arsenal of strategies to employ although all revolving around denying the Onos or raping it the moment it hits the field..
Aliens need the most work for the game to progress in balance/competitive play.
<!--quoteo(post=2022624:date=Nov 13 2012, 03:13 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Nov 13 2012, 03:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a fine idea for scaling.
UWE doesn't want scaling, though. They've repeatedly refused to tie lifeform's health/armory scaling to hive count and I don't know why hive maturation + count would yield a different answer.
If you're trying to present solutions that UWE might actually adopt, your suggestion is a lost cause. It's like asking for bhop back -- UWE already said NO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is so insanely asinine I can't even begin to critique such poor decision making.
The only reason aliens are rushing Onos is because every other life-form is completely useless against a marine team with level 1+ weapons and a basic twitch reflex... The fade can go down to two marines easily, it's insulting.
And the 6 minute Onos doesn't need a solution.. PLAY BETTER AS MARINE! it's not hard to kill an Onos with a co-ordinated team, three marines can focus-fire one down pretty fast.
And lets not ignore the fact that, if the marines are doing their jobs the aliens will NOT be able to 6 minute Onos. I have had so many games where getting a second hive was near impossible because of how well the marines spread out, I had my hives knifed down multiple times.
In order for this stupid topic to even work the marines already have to suck... and in that case who cares? A six minute Onos wont happen/wont be a problem in a game where the marines can shoot.
3 marines 1 nanite-armor level 2 LMGs = onos down. That's 75 res in the garbage. Stop complaining about this, aliens need FIXES not NERFS.
Restrict Onos egg drop until an evolved fade enters the field? I have little competitive gameplay experience, so I apologize if this hardly fixes the problem, but just a thought.
<!--quoteo(post=2021989:date=Nov 13 2012, 02:41 PM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Nov 13 2012, 02:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021989"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please don't post about a problem like this if you don't have any competitive experience. You don't see it as a serious concern because you aren't participating in games where it's ruining the fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've actually decided to report you for this post, something I have never done in any forum before simply because I thought it was a silly waste of time. It is my opinion that competitive players like you will ultimately be the death of the NS2 community. I hope your brash arrogance eventually causes the majority of you to be filtered out of these forums.
As for the solutions suggested in this thread. Essentially all of them seek to somehow restrict the ability to drop the egg based on some timer, which completely skirts the issue at hand. I think the alien commander should be fully capable of dropping an Onos egg at the six minute mark, he just shouldn't want to. Not in every single case, that is. I think the Fade is a shining example of how this can be accomplished. In my experience, almost every person who hits 50 res and wants to go fade first asks if blink is up. <b>This is perfect</b>. This is what the Onos needs. The Onos needs its blink equivalent, the ability which, without it, leaves the Onos severely gimped in combat, only to be undertaken by very experienced and skilled players.
The Onos' biggest problem stems from the fact that he has no second hive ability. A new ability isn't a strict buff, it is a method of scaling. Because the average case is aliens with 2 hives, the Onos must be balanced around this, meaning that the power of the Onos at 30 minutes is almost unchanged compared to its power at 6. If this doesn't change, and the Onos isn't given upgrades which cause it to scale up, you won't be able to scale it down in the early game.
One solution no one has yet to mention could be that of team limits.
Ie for Aliens a max of 2 fades, 2 Onos so on per team. Marines would have restrictions on Exos and Jetpacks
This would both encourage different game play and encourage players to try other species. Obviously it wouldn't strictly counter 6 minute Onos but could be worked into part of a greater plan.
<!--quoteo(post=2023017:date=Nov 14 2012, 11:27 AM:name=Bullet_Force)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullet_Force @ Nov 14 2012, 11:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023017"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One solution no one has yet to mention could be that of team limits.
Ie for Aliens a max of 2 fades, 2 Onos so on per team. Marines would have restrictions on Exos and Jetpacks
This would both encourage different game play and encourage players to try other species. Obviously it wouldn't strictly counter 6 minute Onos but could be worked into part of a greater plan.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you limit lifeforms you would also have to limit the weapons marines can get. Its poorly thought out and doesnt especially work.
The issue isnt that you can do this, its that you only ever do it. There are no other viable strategies for aliens and no tactical or strategic point in doing anything else. Expansion is too expensive and risky (harvesters are still easy to snipe off unless they're in a base), You have no other mid->late game frontline unit (lerk isnt frontline, skulk doesnt scale, gorge isnt frontline, fade is flat out pathetic currently) and you dont have that much morep ower early game. So really onos is the only option
Can I suggest a completely different approach? What if explosives had a stunning property. I don't mean to the extreme of knocking them out I mean more the charging onos keeps stopping when they hit mines or gl. Right now the biggest problem I see with the onos is it's way too fast getting into melee range. Instead of nerfing that and making the unit less useful the marines just need a better means of dealing with them. Mines are an easy item to get and if the team is using them, you should be able to stall onos rushes with sustained fire and re dropping mines.
<b>@ GORGEous:</b> I believe both factions need some changes, but for the most part are everything else in good state. Lerk's only need a few changes to its kit, improvements to the mechanics of the Fade's kit and improve Exosuits for marines with a different, cheaper version of Exosuits. Other than that, it's the early Onos egg drop.
<b>@ EnFission:</b> I don't think it would solve much, but I guess it all depends on how long you're alive and how many res nodes you have.
<b>@ Imbalanxd:</b> The proposed "Berserk" ability I think is quite a viable solution to make the early presence of Onos less a problem to work with.
<b>@ Icon:</b> An interesting idea that could probably work, indeed, but how would such a stun effect work? Does it stack, reset duration or not stack at all? If properly timed with a grenade launcher, would it then be able to perma-stun an Onos? If it were too short to balance such situations, would it really make any difference? I don't mean to argue for the sake of arguing, but I'm not a fan of stun effects on mobile units such as marines. An Exosuit could have something of the like, but I'm not sure how quickly you can drop an Exo without compromising too much of upgrades and techs.
Well the way I'm looking at it if it was a half second stun with half second of immunity afterward you'd really have to trudge forward if your getting stuck in gl spam. Forcing the team to clear out marines so the onos can get through. It also might be nice to have the onos slowed during the immunity, just so the lumbering beast isn't racing through 5 mines while immune. The one thing that really gets me about the onos is that it doesn't feel huge at all, the things so nimble and speedy.
One other change that might help things is to slow the onos down and make its right click a charge. Just a straight line run toward your enemy. Just so its more like a lumbering elephant not a huge rhino with cat like reflexes. If that was its second hive ability then the onos at early stages would be really slow so marines could take it out. At higher levels it would require more skill to get kills as opposed to just chasing marines down if they don't have a jetpack. For a team game the onos seems to be a very strong one unit army.
<!--quoteo(post=2021043:date=Nov 12 2012, 06:33 PM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Nov 12 2012, 06:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021043"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->agreed... If you watched the ESL feed you would have seen a lot of onos drops, AND a lot of marine wins.
THis implies 2 facts 1st- Onos drop is currently the most powerful strategy 2nd-Onos drop is not OP
Put these together and your left realizing that if the most powerful strategy isnt winning games then how can any other strategy work?
Solution Fix overall early game balancing and delay early onos a bit...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most pub players aren't aware of the 4 minute onos drop let alone how to combat it or if it's even in play until the onos comes out.
Exos require 20r for a second command chair which also requires some semblance of map control, it then requires 40r for the protolab and 30r for the research which also takes a lot of time to complete. Then it takes 50-75 res to buy and 15, 25, 35r respectively for each armour upgrade which <i>also</i> requires a ton of time. Onos only really needs carapice and maybe celerity and he's performing at 90% capacity 5 minutes into the game.
Not only are onos self sufficient in their play style, but so is the alien commander who requires zero coordination with an alien team other than getting them to pressure the marine start location. exos are not self sufficient and the marine com requires mariens to build everything for him. They are weaker than onos and cannot heal themselves. The balance is way off the charts. If exos require 2 CC's the onos should require 2 hive's and probably be a little more expensive, even if it's 90 res (which in turn will make fade more viable). A single onos harassing one flank of a base can pretty much lock it down for 5-10 minutes as it requires the entire team in one place to kill it or hurt it enough that it retreats instead of just ganking the base after killing the first 3 marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2023588:date=Nov 14 2012, 01:47 PM:name=grazr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (grazr @ Nov 14 2012, 01:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023588"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most pub players aren't aware of the 4 minute onos drop let alone how to combat it or if it's even in play until the onos comes out.
Exos require 20r for a second command chair which also requires some semblance of map control, it then requires 40r for the protolab and 30r for the research which also takes a lot of time to complete. Then it takes 50-75 res to buy and 15, 25, 35r respectively for each armour upgrade which <i>also</i> requires a ton of time. Onos only really needs carapice and maybe celerity and he's performing at 90% capacity 5 minutes into the game.
Not only are onos self sufficient in their play style, but so is the alien commander who requires zero coordination with an alien team other than getting them to pressure the marine start location. exos are not self sufficient and the marine com requires mariens to build everything for him. They are weaker than onos and cannot heal themselves. The balance is way off the charts. If exos require 2 CC's the onos should require 2 hive's and probably be a little more expensive, even if it's 90 res (which in turn will make fade more viable). A single onos harassing one flank of a base can pretty much lock it down for 5-10 minutes as it requires the entire team in one place to kill it or hurt it enough that it retreats instead of just ganking the base after killing the first 3 marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're argument is irrelevant, marines are still wining more often and Exos are stronger than Onos since they have free flying welding bots for cheap, which can be stacked.
Onos is NOT op, if anything aliens need a buff, Onos no longer counter heavies like they used to, they literally have to tank the bullets (No stomp, No devour) not to mention Exos have ranged attacks which can be focused where as Onos needs to be point blank.
QUOTE If exos require 2 CC's the onos should require 2 hive's and probably be a little more expensive, even if it's 90 res (which in turn will make fade more viable).
Are you kidding? How does making Onos more expensive make fade more viable? Fade is TERRIBLE and can literally (not exaggerating here) die to one level 2 shotgun in a few hits.
QUOTE A single onos harassing one flank of a base can pretty much lock it down for 5-10 minutes as it requires the entire team in one place to kill it or hurt it enough that it retreats instead of just ganking the base after killing the first 3 marines.
Wow, really? two marines can easily push back an Onos and make it have to return to the Hive. I have killed an Onos with level two LMG's and my friend (Who can also aim). Pistol alone will do almost half the health of the Ono's between two people and you can unload that thing in about 2 seconds.
I don't get why you couldn't just move Onos from 2 to 3 hives for dropping the egg. Aliens could still evolve it themselves at 2 hives, but actually dropping the egg would require 3 mature hives.
<!--quoteo(post=2023896:date=Nov 14 2012, 05:50 PM:name=Radiocage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Radiocage @ Nov 14 2012, 05:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023896"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't get why you couldn't just move Onos from 2 to 3 hives for dropping the egg. Aliens could still evolve it themselves at 2 hives, but actually dropping the egg would require 3 mature hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not a bad idea, but then you should move dual minigun Exos to three com chairs.
<!--quoteo(post=2023896:date=Nov 15 2012, 02:50 AM:name=Radiocage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Radiocage @ Nov 15 2012, 02:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023896"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't get why you couldn't just move Onos from 2 to 3 hives for dropping the egg. Aliens could still evolve it themselves at 2 hives, but actually dropping the egg would require 3 mature hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering that 90% of time spent after the 6 minute mark (even well into the 40-50 minute long games) involve aliens having only two hives, how do you expect the alien commander to spend his res in the late game? How do you expect aliens in general to keep up pressure on the marine team when, for all intents and purposes, the alien commander is <b><u>unable </u></b>to drop their highest tier life form?
Do you consider the implications of the balance changes you suggest, or just assume that they will work regardless?
I really don't know why people are so set on removing even the possibility of a 5 or 6 minute Onos. Like I've said, the possibility should always exist, it just shouldn't always be desirable.
This exact problem has been faced before, most people just don't realize it. Not so long ago in the beta, Fades were seriously tough customers (hard to believe right?). Fades were going 50 for 2 every other game, and seriously raped any marine attempt at expansion. However, there were never any fade rush problems, even though the Fade is 25 res cheaper. Ok, ok, to say there were NO fade rush problems is an overstatement, but the "rush" problem was due more to the imbalance of the fade itself, while as it seems most people agree, the Onos itself is not imbalanced, just the time at which it appears.
So why was there no fade rush problem? Because, simply put, fades without blink suck really bad. Even the really good fades, the ones that are competent without blink, wouldn't risk the resources on half a life form. Without blink, the fade is far too gimped, and therefore the fade eggs only started rolling once blink (and typically at least adrenaline) was up. Appropriate a similar solution for the Onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2024155:date=Nov 15 2012, 12:09 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 15 2012, 12:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024155"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Considering that 90% of time spent after the 6 minute mark (even well into the 40-50 minute long games) involve aliens having only two hives, how do you expect the alien commander to spend his res in the late game? How do you expect aliens in general to keep up pressure on the marine team when, for all intents and purposes, the alien commander is <b><u>unable </u></b>to drop their highest tier life form?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is "plenty" for the Khammander to spend res on. I would be lying to myself and everyone on this forum if I said I thought the Khammander was fine as it is, but there are things currently that you can do, assuming Onos egg isn't available. Namely structures. A bad Khamm will not secure any part of the map with Crags/Shades/Shifts/Whips and simply leave all cyst chains to be broken at a marine's will. If you're at a point where the game is stalemating for several minutes and you only have two hives, all available upgrades, and a good amount of resources, you should be at least reinforcing your territory, particularly where you expect a push to happen.
<!--quoteo(post=2024197:date=Nov 15 2012, 01:01 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 15 2012, 01:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024197"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... it seems most people agree, the Onos itself is not imbalanced, just the time at which it appears.
So why was there no fade rush problem? Because, simply put, fades without blink suck really bad. Even the really good fades, the ones that are competent without blink, wouldn't risk the resources on half a life form. Without blink, the fade is far too gimped, and therefore the fade eggs only started rolling once blink (and typically at least adrenaline) was up. Appropriate a similar solution for the Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are only two ways to implement that though. Adding a NEW second hive ability that would have to be researched, or taking an ability that the Onos already has, and requiring it be researched at the second hive. What a new ability would be is an entirely separate debate, and what current Onos ability would be taken away from a completely 'vanilla' Onos? It has Gore/Smash and Charge. You would have one of those taken away from a rushed Onos? Any way you look at it, it involves making a significant change to the Onos itself, and as you said, the Onos itself is not imbalanced.
It's already been discussed at length that there is a problem with alien scaling. Right now the Onos is too powerful for that early 4-6 minute mark. What's missing right now is a steady progression through the lifeforms from Skulk to Onos. Lerks should be available very early and the most viable lifeform at that time, then when people have the res for Fade, they should not be deterred because one ability is vital to making the res investment worthwhile. In other words they should be the most viable lifeform as soon as they become available, not as soon as blink becomes available. And it there should be a wide enough gap between time you can acquire Fade and time you can acquire Onos that not everyone will just opt to save for the latter. I'd say past the ten minute mark is when an Onos should be seen in a typical game, if the aliens are doing reasonably well.
Once that progression has been smoothed out in the game balance, then each lifeform needs to be looked at and given ability trees that allow their viability to keep up with the overall tech level of the game.
I think Imbalanxd is on to something here. Give the Onos an upgrade that makes it <i>better</i>, but then nerf the 'vanilla' Onos. For example, that rumored 'Bone Shield' ability.
Give it to the Onos so that, when activated, it can take massive damage from the front and blow it off like it's nothing, but make it so that it can't move/moves very slowly. The beauty of that being that now you can take the Onos' health and armor and all but cut them in half. (Or at least by a third.)
It may even make Regeneration a more appealing evolution for the Onos, if done correctly.
Why is this even debated when the solution is so simple? No third hive? No onos drop. GG. Aliens can still evolve onos with pres. Aliens can drop fade eggs at two hives (but fades still need a serious buff).
<!--quoteo(post=2024673:date=Nov 15 2012, 06:30 PM:name=PHJF)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PHJF @ Nov 15 2012, 06:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024673"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why is this even debated when the solution is so simple? No third hive? No onos drop. GG. Aliens can still evolve onos with pres. Aliens can drop fade eggs at two hives (but fades still need a serious buff).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you want to comment on the simplicity of the topic, try reading the thread first. Your suggestion has already been made, and it has glaring and resounding issues.
We all agree that the main problem here is the 6 minutes mark and not the Onos itself. The thing is, we need to find a way to force the alien commander to spend the ress in order to have a Onos egg. the solution is having more prerequires in order to have an Onos egg
For example: the 'egg drop" ability would be available only with 2 hives and the commander has to research the ability "egg drop" that cost him between 20 and 40 ress.
The problem is that if we want to delay the onos, we need to tweak the lerk and the fade in order to have a viable race especially during the tournaments. In my opinion, the fade should be at 40 ress and the lerk should have 50 more HP.
<!--quoteo(post=2025194:date=Nov 15 2012, 06:28 PM:name=Eidern)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Eidern @ Nov 15 2012, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025194"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We all agree that the main problem here is the 6 minutes mark and not the Onos itself. The thing is, we need to find a way to force the alien commander to spend the ress in order to have a Onos egg. the solution is having more prerequires in order to have an Onos egg
For example: the 'egg drop" ability would be available only with 2 hives and the commander has to research the ability "egg drop" that cost him between 20 and 40 ress.
The problem is that if we want to delay the onos, we need to tweak the lerk and the fade in order to have a viable race especially during the tournaments. In my opinion, the fade should be at 40 ress and the lerk should have 50 more HP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, No.
NO.
Stop it, stop trying to make aliens suck more!
Nothing on aliens should be more expensive, nothing!
your thoughts on the fade and Lark are nice but seriously? MORE EXPENSIVE FOR ALIENS? Have you played NS2??!?!!
When an alien upgrade dies you have to RE-RESEARCH IT can you imagine?! God you people don't think.
Comments
The real question as pointed out is why only Onos drops and not say Fade Drops? Or even Lerk Drops.
Because nothing else can survive pressure teams with shotguns reliably. Because currently Aliens do not have a potent T1.5-T2 combat lifeform. Sure you've got the exceptional high-skilled players who roll with Fades all day, but that's a high-skill ceiling and high-skill floor unit that can easily be brought down by a few well-placed shotguns (which all Marines coincidentally will have).
It's a problem with the power balance in the T2 region of the game. Locking the Onos behind another barrier won't fix it imo.
I think we can all agree that we need to focus on 6v6 competitive game balance, which currently accounts for the vast majority of NS2 play. We also wouldn't want to upset our superior, Locklear here. The consequences might prove very unfortunate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't have a lot of patience for people that can't keep up with the topic facts. It's blatant ignorance to say that it isn't an issue. So to continue posting that it isn't an issue doesn't help this discussion at all.
This issue does not only apply to 6v6 but it's where the most competent players are and thus where the 6m Onos appears most. (every game)
Most public Commanders are not aware of the strategy or aren't competent enough to execute it.
Your level of respect is far worse than mine, I'm simply explaining why he's wrong.. and you're mocking me for doing it.
<!--quoteo(post=2022583:date=Nov 13 2012, 03:42 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Nov 13 2012, 03:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022583"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The real question as pointed out is why only Onos drops and not say Fade Drops? Or even Lerk Drops.
Because nothing else can survive pressure teams with shotguns reliably. Because currently Aliens do not have a potent T1.5-T2 combat lifeform. Sure you've got the exceptional high-skilled players who roll with Fades all day, but that's a high-skill ceiling and high-skill floor unit that can easily be brought down by a few well-placed shotguns (which all Marines coincidentally will have).
It's a problem with the power balance in the T2 region of the game. Locking the Onos behind another barrier won't fix it imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tres Drops are broken anyways. My team uses 30Tres Lerk at the start of the game to a similar effect of the Onos. When we play well enough, it gives us a ridiculous edge against no upgrade marines.
It wasn't really thoughtful as far as changes go, just a way for "commanders to dump resource" and the consequence is that random lifeforms appear at random times in the game and scale really poorly or scale REALLY well, because of that. (Onos scales extremely well in early periods of the game) Shotguns are broken also, they are randomly doing 220 damage or 22 based on the corner the spread goes to.
Fades should be getting their movement back soon though, so then we will see 10m Fade spam again, which goes back to one of the game's biggest problems imo for Aliens, and that is a real reason to get different lifeforms and have diversity.
Fade spam can just demolish Marines and their bases also with no real downside to spamming them.
Locklear's post wasn't disrespectful or unwarranted. If you don't have a problem with onos drops in pub play it's simply because you've been playing with blissfully ignorant people. It won't stay that way. Many pubs are already complaining about the onos drops because more and more people are learning about it. The game is new, but people will do what works. And fast onos drops are unfair in both pubs and competitive play. It's not a pub vs competitive thing.
That's a great idea, I like it quite well. It's easier to follow, and solves its early game presence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Glad you agree. I re-quoted my post so I'd hopefully hear a downside/critique to it.
<!--quoteo(post=2021606:date=Nov 12 2012, 07:36 PM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Nov 12 2012, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps scale the Onos's health/damage to how many mature hives there are. Make a 2 hive Onos 40%* what it currently is, 3rd hive Onos 20%* what it currently is and 4th hive Onos what it is right now.
*Those percentages and numbers listed are pulled out of a hat, obviously they would need tweaking. I still feel the concept is sound.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
UWE doesn't want scaling, though. They've repeatedly refused to tie lifeform's health/armory scaling to hive count and I don't know why hive maturation + count would yield a different answer.
If you're trying to present solutions that UWE might actually adopt, your suggestion is a lost cause. It's like asking for bhop back -- UWE already said NO.
Maybe if all the upgrades became good and balanced they wouldn't need something but right now it feels like you just want to be spamming the most efficient lifeform.. because the others are hardly a benefit to have.
Which I think is a multi-faceted issue that goes into several different things including:
1. Alien upgrade system/scaling isn't good
2. Tres lifeforms screws up lifeform timing and the economy
3. when Fades go back to old 10myouloseFades, they will be spammed and become too good again, I think the core issue was the fact that 3+ Fades was retarded (missing a mechanic that discourages it)
to fix spam you need either that, or a hard counter that enforces the team to not spam.
Otherwise imo, it will just be shotgun spam vs Fade spam every game.. fun.
I've read UWE doesn't want hard counters though, so something else needs to be employed to discourage the tech explosion lifeform spam imo.
But it all goes back to the fact that the game isn't balanced well enough atm to do anything but the same thing every game for Aliens. Marines actually do have a nice arsenal of strategies to employ although all revolving around denying the Onos or raping it the moment it hits the field..
Aliens need the most work for the game to progress in balance/competitive play.
UWE doesn't want scaling, though. They've repeatedly refused to tie lifeform's health/armory scaling to hive count and I don't know why hive maturation + count would yield a different answer.
If you're trying to present solutions that UWE might actually adopt, your suggestion is a lost cause. It's like asking for bhop back -- UWE already said NO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is so insanely asinine I can't even begin to critique such poor decision making.
The only reason aliens are rushing Onos is because every other life-form is completely useless against a marine team with level 1+ weapons and a basic twitch reflex... The fade can go down to two marines easily, it's insulting.
And the 6 minute Onos doesn't need a solution.. PLAY BETTER AS MARINE! it's not hard to kill an Onos with a co-ordinated team, three marines can focus-fire one down pretty fast.
And lets not ignore the fact that, if the marines are doing their jobs the aliens will NOT be able to 6 minute Onos. I have had so many games where getting a second hive was near impossible because of how well the marines spread out, I had my hives knifed down multiple times.
In order for this stupid topic to even work the marines already have to suck... and in that case who cares? A six minute Onos wont happen/wont be a problem in a game where the marines can shoot.
3 marines 1 nanite-armor level 2 LMGs = onos down. That's 75 res in the garbage. Stop complaining about this, aliens need FIXES not NERFS.
You don't see it as a serious concern because you aren't participating in games where it's ruining the fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've actually decided to report you for this post, something I have never done in any forum before simply because I thought it was a silly waste of time. It is my opinion that competitive players like you will ultimately be the death of the NS2 community. I hope your brash arrogance eventually causes the majority of you to be filtered out of these forums.
As for the solutions suggested in this thread. Essentially all of them seek to somehow restrict the ability to drop the egg based on some timer, which completely skirts the issue at hand. I think the alien commander should be fully capable of dropping an Onos egg at the six minute mark, he just shouldn't want to. Not in every single case, that is. I think the Fade is a shining example of how this can be accomplished. In my experience, almost every person who hits 50 res and wants to go fade first asks if blink is up. <b>This is perfect</b>. This is what the Onos needs. The Onos needs its blink equivalent, the ability which, without it, leaves the Onos severely gimped in combat, only to be undertaken by very experienced and skilled players.
The Onos' biggest problem stems from the fact that he has no second hive ability. A new ability isn't a strict buff, it is a method of scaling. Because the average case is aliens with 2 hives, the Onos must be balanced around this, meaning that the power of the Onos at 30 minutes is almost unchanged compared to its power at 6. If this doesn't change, and the Onos isn't given upgrades which cause it to scale up, you won't be able to scale it down in the early game.
Ie for Aliens a max of 2 fades, 2 Onos so on per team.
Marines would have restrictions on Exos and Jetpacks
This would both encourage different game play and encourage players to try other species. Obviously it wouldn't strictly counter 6 minute Onos but could be worked into part of a greater plan.
Ie for Aliens a max of 2 fades, 2 Onos so on per team.
Marines would have restrictions on Exos and Jetpacks
This would both encourage different game play and encourage players to try other species. Obviously it wouldn't strictly counter 6 minute Onos but could be worked into part of a greater plan.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you limit lifeforms you would also have to limit the weapons marines can get. Its poorly thought out and doesnt especially work.
The issue isnt that you can do this, its that you only ever do it. There are no other viable strategies for aliens and no tactical or strategic point in doing anything else. Expansion is too expensive and risky (harvesters are still easy to snipe off unless they're in a base), You have no other mid->late game frontline unit (lerk isnt frontline, skulk doesnt scale, gorge isnt frontline, fade is flat out pathetic currently) and you dont have that much morep ower early game. So really onos is the only option
I believe both factions need some changes, but for the most part are everything else in good state. Lerk's only need a few changes to its kit, improvements to the mechanics of the Fade's kit and improve Exosuits for marines with a different, cheaper version of Exosuits. Other than that, it's the early Onos egg drop.
<b>@ EnFission:</b>
I don't think it would solve much, but I guess it all depends on how long you're alive and how many res nodes you have.
<b>@ Imbalanxd:</b>
The proposed "Berserk" ability I think is quite a viable solution to make the early presence of Onos less a problem to work with.
<b>@ Icon:</b>
An interesting idea that could probably work, indeed, but how would such a stun effect work? Does it stack, reset duration or not stack at all? If properly timed with a grenade launcher, would it then be able to perma-stun an Onos? If it were too short to balance such situations, would it really make any difference?
I don't mean to argue for the sake of arguing, but I'm not a fan of stun effects on mobile units such as marines. An Exosuit could have something of the like, but I'm not sure how quickly you can drop an Exo without compromising too much of upgrades and techs.
One other change that might help things is to slow the onos down and make its right click a charge. Just a straight line run toward your enemy. Just so its more like a lumbering elephant not a huge rhino with cat like reflexes. If that was its second hive ability then the onos at early stages would be really slow so marines could take it out. At higher levels it would require more skill to get kills as opposed to just chasing marines down if they don't have a jetpack. For a team game the onos seems to be a very strong one unit army.
THis implies 2 facts
1st- Onos drop is currently the most powerful strategy
2nd-Onos drop is not OP
Put these together and your left realizing that if the most powerful strategy isnt winning games then how can any other strategy work?
Solution Fix overall early game balancing and delay early onos a bit...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most pub players aren't aware of the 4 minute onos drop let alone how to combat it or if it's even in play until the onos comes out.
Exos require 20r for a second command chair which also requires some semblance of map control, it then requires 40r for the protolab and 30r for the research which also takes a lot of time to complete. Then it takes 50-75 res to buy and 15, 25, 35r respectively for each armour upgrade which <i>also</i> requires a ton of time. Onos only really needs carapice and maybe celerity and he's performing at 90% capacity 5 minutes into the game.
Not only are onos self sufficient in their play style, but so is the alien commander who requires zero coordination with an alien team other than getting them to pressure the marine start location. exos are not self sufficient and the marine com requires mariens to build everything for him. They are weaker than onos and cannot heal themselves. The balance is way off the charts. If exos require 2 CC's the onos should require 2 hive's and probably be a little more expensive, even if it's 90 res (which in turn will make fade more viable). A single onos harassing one flank of a base can pretty much lock it down for 5-10 minutes as it requires the entire team in one place to kill it or hurt it enough that it retreats instead of just ganking the base after killing the first 3 marines.
Exos require 20r for a second command chair which also requires some semblance of map control, it then requires 40r for the protolab and 30r for the research which also takes a lot of time to complete. Then it takes 50-75 res to buy and 15, 25, 35r respectively for each armour upgrade which <i>also</i> requires a ton of time. Onos only really needs carapice and maybe celerity and he's performing at 90% capacity 5 minutes into the game.
Not only are onos self sufficient in their play style, but so is the alien commander who requires zero coordination with an alien team other than getting them to pressure the marine start location. exos are not self sufficient and the marine com requires mariens to build everything for him. They are weaker than onos and cannot heal themselves. The balance is way off the charts. If exos require 2 CC's the onos should require 2 hive's and probably be a little more expensive, even if it's 90 res (which in turn will make fade more viable). A single onos harassing one flank of a base can pretty much lock it down for 5-10 minutes as it requires the entire team in one place to kill it or hurt it enough that it retreats instead of just ganking the base after killing the first 3 marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're argument is irrelevant, marines are still wining more often and Exos are stronger than Onos since they have free flying welding bots for cheap, which can be stacked.
Onos is NOT op, if anything aliens need a buff, Onos no longer counter heavies like they used to, they literally have to tank the bullets (No stomp, No devour) not to mention Exos have ranged attacks which can be focused where as Onos needs to be point blank.
QUOTE
If exos require 2 CC's the onos should require 2 hive's and probably be a little more expensive, even if it's 90 res (which in turn will make fade more viable).
Are you kidding? How does making Onos more expensive make fade more viable? Fade is TERRIBLE and can literally (not exaggerating here) die to one level 2 shotgun in a few hits.
QUOTE
A single onos harassing one flank of a base can pretty much lock it down for 5-10 minutes as it requires the entire team in one place to kill it or hurt it enough that it retreats instead of just ganking the base after killing the first 3 marines.
Wow, really? two marines can easily push back an Onos and make it have to return to the Hive. I have killed an Onos with level two LMG's and my friend (Who can also aim). Pistol alone will do almost half the health of the Ono's between two people and you can unload that thing in about 2 seconds.
That's not a bad idea, but then you should move dual minigun Exos to three com chairs.
Considering that 90% of time spent after the 6 minute mark (even well into the 40-50 minute long games) involve aliens having only two hives, how do you expect the alien commander to spend his res in the late game? How do you expect aliens in general to keep up pressure on the marine team when, for all intents and purposes, the alien commander is <b><u>unable </u></b>to drop their highest tier life form?
Do you consider the implications of the balance changes you suggest, or just assume that they will work regardless?
like fades / lerks
everyone who would buy those with pres could save for onos instead and let comm buy them the units
This exact problem has been faced before, most people just don't realize it. Not so long ago in the beta, Fades were seriously tough customers (hard to believe right?). Fades were going 50 for 2 every other game, and seriously raped any marine attempt at expansion. However, there were never any fade rush problems, even though the Fade is 25 res cheaper. Ok, ok, to say there were NO fade rush problems is an overstatement, but the "rush" problem was due more to the imbalance of the fade itself, while as it seems most people agree, the Onos itself is not imbalanced, just the time at which it appears.
So why was there no fade rush problem? Because, simply put, fades without blink suck really bad. Even the really good fades, the ones that are competent without blink, wouldn't risk the resources on half a life form. Without blink, the fade is far too gimped, and therefore the fade eggs only started rolling once blink (and typically at least adrenaline) was up. Appropriate a similar solution for the Onos.
There is "plenty" for the Khammander to spend res on. I would be lying to myself and everyone on this forum if I said I thought the Khammander was fine as it is, but there are things currently that you can do, assuming Onos egg isn't available. Namely structures. A bad Khamm will not secure any part of the map with Crags/Shades/Shifts/Whips and simply leave all cyst chains to be broken at a marine's will. If you're at a point where the game is stalemating for several minutes and you only have two hives, all available upgrades, and a good amount of resources, you should be at least reinforcing your territory, particularly where you expect a push to happen.
So why was there no fade rush problem? Because, simply put, fades without blink suck really bad. Even the really good fades, the ones that are competent without blink, wouldn't risk the resources on half a life form. Without blink, the fade is far too gimped, and therefore the fade eggs only started rolling once blink (and typically at least adrenaline) was up. Appropriate a similar solution for the Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are only two ways to implement that though. Adding a NEW second hive ability that would have to be researched, or taking an ability that the Onos already has, and requiring it be researched at the second hive. What a new ability would be is an entirely separate debate, and what current Onos ability would be taken away from a completely 'vanilla' Onos? It has Gore/Smash and Charge. You would have one of those taken away from a rushed Onos? Any way you look at it, it involves making a significant change to the Onos itself, and as you said, the Onos itself is not imbalanced.
It's already been discussed at length that there is a problem with alien scaling. Right now the Onos is too powerful for that early 4-6 minute mark. What's missing right now is a steady progression through the lifeforms from Skulk to Onos. Lerks should be available very early and the most viable lifeform at that time, then when people have the res for Fade, they should not be deterred because one ability is vital to making the res investment worthwhile. In other words they should be the most viable lifeform as soon as they become available, not as soon as blink becomes available. And it there should be a wide enough gap between time you can acquire Fade and time you can acquire Onos that not everyone will just opt to save for the latter. I'd say past the ten minute mark is when an Onos should be seen in a typical game, if the aliens are doing reasonably well.
Once that progression has been smoothed out in the game balance, then each lifeform needs to be looked at and given ability trees that allow their viability to keep up with the overall tech level of the game.
Give it to the Onos so that, when activated, it can take massive damage from the front and blow it off like it's nothing, but make it so that it can't move/moves very slowly. The beauty of that being that now you can take the Onos' health and armor and all but cut them in half. (Or at least by a third.)
It may even make Regeneration a more appealing evolution for the Onos, if done correctly.
Aliens can still evolve onos with pres. Aliens can drop fade eggs at two hives (but fades still need a serious buff).
Aliens can still evolve onos with pres. Aliens can drop fade eggs at two hives (but fades still need a serious buff).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you want to comment on the simplicity of the topic, try reading the thread first. Your suggestion has already been made, and it has glaring and resounding issues.
For example: the 'egg drop" ability would be available only with 2 hives and the commander has to research the ability "egg drop" that cost him between 20 and 40 ress.
The problem is that if we want to delay the onos, we need to tweak the lerk and the fade in order to have a viable race especially during the tournaments. In my opinion, the fade should be at 40 ress and the lerk should have 50 more HP.
For example: the 'egg drop" ability would be available only with 2 hives and the commander has to research the ability "egg drop" that cost him between 20 and 40 ress.
The problem is that if we want to delay the onos, we need to tweak the lerk and the fade in order to have a viable race especially during the tournaments. In my opinion, the fade should be at 40 ress and the lerk should have 50 more HP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, No.
NO.
Stop it, stop trying to make aliens suck more!
Nothing on aliens should be more expensive, nothing!
your thoughts on the fade and Lark are nice but seriously? MORE EXPENSIVE FOR ALIENS? Have you played NS2??!?!!
When an alien upgrade dies you have to RE-RESEARCH IT can you imagine?! God you people don't think.