<!--quoteo(post=2023588:date=Nov 14 2012, 01:47 PM:name=grazr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (grazr @ Nov 14 2012, 01:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023588"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most pub players aren't aware of the 4 minute onos drop let alone how to combat it or if it's even in play until the onos comes out.
Exos require 20r for a second command chair which also requires some semblance of map control, it then requires 40r for the protolab and 30r for the research which also takes a lot of time to complete. Then it takes 50-75 res to buy and 15, 25, 35r respectively for each armour upgrade which <i>also</i> requires a ton of time. Onos only really needs carapice and maybe celerity and he's performing at 90% capacity 5 minutes into the game.
Not only are onos self sufficient in their play style, but so is the alien commander who requires zero coordination with an alien team other than getting them to pressure the marine start location. exos are not self sufficient and the marine com requires mariens to build everything for him. They are weaker than onos and cannot heal themselves. The balance is way off the charts. If exos require 2 CC's the onos should require 2 hive's and probably be a little more expensive, even if it's 90 res (which in turn will make fade more viable). A single onos harassing one flank of a base can pretty much lock it down for 5-10 minutes as it requires the entire team in one place to kill it or hurt it enough that it retreats instead of just ganking the base after killing the first 3 marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
MOST PUBS WONT SEE A 4 MINUTES ONOS DROP
How many professional player need to join the alien team to accomplish a 4 minute drop?! you need SO many competent people to hold and defend key points!
You all can't be serious.... STOP TRYING TO NERF ALIENS BECAUSE THEY WON A FEW TIME!
I have seen marines come back from near demise! I have NEVER seen aliens make a comeback. On the other hand I have seen aliens LOOSE GAMES after having 4 Hives for over 10 minutes! (ESPECIALLY IN PUBS! SO DON'T BRING PUBS INTO IT)
I still like my suggestion the best, I do not see it on there.
<b>11.)</b> Onos cost increased, Tres model is staggered with it being based on # of hives, more hives = cost is less Argument: Basically having more hives gives you cheaper lifeforms. Onos could be something like 90/80/70 as an example. Tres and Pres cost amount separation is a must, they are not equal and must be balanced differently. With a higher number of hives it would decrease lifeform cost with more map control, similar to if you would have more harvesters to gain resources faster, but it makes it harder to get lifeforms at the start of the game. This could also make it so that 1 hive strategies are even better, if 1 hive onos would be possible but at an increased cost, maybe even lifeform research being available, so it would be possible to have strategies such as 1 hive blink or leap but at an increased cost as well. Counter-argument: None, this is awesome.
<!--quoteo(post=2025280:date=Nov 15 2012, 10:03 PM:name=Calin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Calin @ Nov 15 2012, 10:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025280"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->MOST PUBS WONT SEE A 4 MINUTES ONOS DROP
How many professional player need to join the alien team to accomplish a 4 minute drop?! you need SO many competent people to hold and defend key points!
You all can't be serious.... STOP TRYING TO NERF ALIENS BECAUSE THEY WON A FEW TIME!
I have seen marines come back from near demise! I have NEVER seen aliens make a comeback. On the other hand I have seen aliens LOOSE GAMES after having 4 Hives for over 10 minutes! (ESPECIALLY IN PUBS! SO DON'T BRING PUBS INTO IT)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem peolpe complaining about is bigger than the 6 minute Onos. The underlying issue is the currently poor scaling of alien tech/lifeforms, ie Lerks and Fades are not viable mid-late game, especially for their res cost. The only reason this is being called "The 6 Minute Onos" is because the strategy was practiaclly the only one seen being used in competitive tournaments. So people started bringing it up and now it's what is trending in the forums. Of cuorse, the fact that it's trending doesn't mean it's not a legitamate problem. But the bottom line is, the 6 Minute Onos itself isn't the problem, it's the only solution currently being used to avoid the problem, which is Alien Scaling and lack of mid game viability. Alien teams are skipping from early to late game to avoid it. 6 Minute Onos might not even be so bad if Fades and Lerks were equally as viable at the 6 minute mark. You might still get a 6 minute Onos, but not in every game.
<!--quoteo(post=2025329:date=Nov 15 2012, 10:45 PM:name=Bad Mojo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bad Mojo @ Nov 15 2012, 10:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025329"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem peolpe complaining about is bigger than the 6 minute Onos. The underlying issue is the currently poor scaling of alien tech/lifeforms, ie Lerks and Fades are not viable mid-late game, especially for their res cost. The only reason this is being called "The 6 Minute Onos" is because the strategy was practiaclly the only one seen being used in competitive tournaments. So people started bringing it up and now it's what is trending in the forums. Of cuorse, the fact that it's trending doesn't mean it's not a legitamate problem. But the bottom line is, the 6 Minute Onos itself isn't the problem, it's the only solution currently being used to avoid the problem, which is Alien Scaling and lack of mid game viability. Alien teams are skipping from early to late game to avoid it. 6 Minute Onos might not even be so bad if Fades and Lerks were equally as viable at the 6 minute mark. You might still get a 6 minute Onos, but not in every game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I Agree.
But the ESL finals will show you that the 6 min onos is "broken". One onos will keep 3 or 4 marines in one point and the 4 others skulks will just have to destroy the extractors 1 by 1 in the other side of the map.
The thing is that the Onos can hit the field at one point that there is no counter to it for 5 or 6 minutes. And that means the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2025316:date=Nov 16 2012, 05:32 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 16 2012, 05:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still like my suggestion the best, I do not see it on there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Surprise surprise.
I'm assuming your proposed res costs are just an example, as a 5 res increase on the cost (or indeed about a 30 res cost <b>decrease </b>in the case of one hive) is obviously laughable. The problem with this is that 75 res really is the largest amount you can reasonably expect a commander to put into one object. Hell, I would be reluctant to drop hives themselves if they cost more than 75 res, and they are far less temperamental than an Onos. As for comparative prices between tres and pres, its good design to keep them the same. Also, assuming they are <i>strictly the same</i> is quite naive. Its similar to thinking 10 US dollars is equal to 10 Australian dollars. They aren't harvested at the same rate, they aren't spent at the same rate. Just because the numbers are the same doesn't mean they are equal.
Here's another suggestion: make all lifeform drops for Khaamander cost 10 more tres than pres (if a commander wanted to drop an Onos egg it would cost 85 tres and same with the other lifeforms). Of course this would have to also be mirrored with the marine team (dual exo costing 85 tres as well).
I understand the issue with wanting to fix Tier 1.5 to 2 on aliens. As an alien, I get killed so quickly by marines with shotties or a pack of lmgs. But, I've seen truly terrifying fades, and very skilled lerks tear through a group of 3 or so marines. Doesn't it mean that I just haven't gone through the full scope of the learning curve? I think rather than trying to fix teching issues, or hive requirements, etc, why not try to increase the only weapon really dedicated to killing Onos, land mines? Fades blink every where, lerks fly, skulks wall crawl. Gorges and onos are the only units definitively susceptible to land mines. Why not boost their power enough to make an Onos wince, and make them more expensive? Or include more of them in the pack so that a hot spot of mines can turn an onos away?
And mines aren't an offensive weapon, so I don't see how they would help marines over power aliens early game.
That's just my .02 from the 40 hrs I've played (which I know isn't considerable compared to a lot of those that have commented so far)
I also think nerfing the vanilla Onos and then making it upgrade reliant to be as battle effective as it currently stands might be a good way to go too.
why not remove the ability to evolve eggs to onos or to drop exos?
personally i think it would create a much better game, i prefer thae games to last a while, right now most matches end within 15-30mins of them starting and it can be frustrating to get a good match going. Think this is mostly due to the learning curve of the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A horrible idea for SOOOOO many reasons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am not trying to flame you but you havn't listed even one.
It insta kills everything OTHER than the onos (doing 300 dmg in a AoE) it kills an onos/hive in a few shots 750 ####ing dmg per shot... (3 marines = insta dead onos or hive)
It nerfs the ENTIRE ####ING alien tech tree instead of solving the problem of onos...
I cant even go into how many reasons it is horrible... the idea of its implementation makes me want to throw up...
Btw the reason for my hostility is because nice pictures like this make our UWE devs want to implement things (they are like magpies) and implementing this would be horrible... :|
Rail gun - maybe, as a counter to <i>early</i> onos... no... as a counter to onos... yes!!! With those stats!!! NOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It insta kills everything OTHER than the onos (doing 300 dmg in a AoE) it kills an onos/hive in a few shots 750 ####ing dmg per shot... (3 marines = insta dead onos or hive)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I probably didn't do a very good job presenting the idea and you have some misconceptions because of this. -The damage numbers are just numbers, and by no means final. -The explosion happens inside the onos think explosive suppository, would only deal AOE damage IF the explosion happens to kill the Onos. <i>*Note piercing shells puncture straight through smaller aliens</i>
This means that if you shoot a Skulk, Gorge, Lerk or Fade it deals the "Direct Damage" (would only instant kill a skulk) and does not trigger the "Explosive or Hemmorhage Damage". The "Explosive Damage" blows up after a countdown inside the Onos and the "Hemmorhage Damage" is the damage over time effect after the "Explosive Damage".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rail gun - maybe, as a counter to early onos... no... as a counter to onos... yes!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I came up with the weapon idea as a counter to the onos specificly and not to counter the entire alien repertoire.
The weapon itself has a charge time before firing and a cooldown after firing with a long reload time. That means that using this to fire at anything but an onos is extremely risky.
Hopefully this information should better help explain the idea and more detailed information should have been available when I posted it.
<!--quoteo(post=2028340:date=Nov 19 2012, 02:00 AM:name=Robo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Robo @ Nov 19 2012, 02:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028340"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hopefully this information should better help explain the idea and more detailed information should have been available when I posted it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So has no use but to be instant death to hives and onos. No thx.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So has no use but to be instant death to hives and onos. No thx.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I feel like you didn't read my entire post. It doesn't even fire instantaneously much less deal enough damage to instantly kill a Hive or an Onos. Since you are so vehemently against the idea could you possibly give me more detailed feedback so I can possibly make it a solution you would support.
I skipped this thread to weigh in on the original post:
I will acknowledge that Fade needs some loving. Heck, Charlie admitted that. But 2 hive, 3 Harvester, Onos Egg is problematic as a strategy and feels...gimmicky and unnatural.
I agree with solution number 2: require a 3rd hive to evolve an Onos egg.
This allows for late game rez dumps, while keeping the Onos out of the mid game. Individual players can still save up and go Onos on their own.
This solution is elegant, easy to understand and encourages dominant teams to spread out rather than camp in 2 hives.
The core issue of <i>why Onos egg is the prefered midgame strategy</i> at the moment is deeper than we're giving it credit for. As Charlie put it "small changes" will adjust the game balance as patches roll down the line.
So I think we're getting the Blink "fix" back soon, and that Onos eggs should require 3 hives to encourage more Fade play.
<!--quoteo(post=2025316:date=Nov 15 2012, 10:32 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 15 2012, 10:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still like my suggestion the best, I do not see it on there.
<b>11.)</b> Onos cost increased, Tres model is staggered with it being based on # of hives, more hives = cost is less Argument: Basically having more hives gives you cheaper lifeforms. Onos could be something like 90/80/70 as an example. Tres and Pres cost amount separation is a must, they are not equal and must be balanced differently. With a higher number of hives it would decrease lifeform cost with more map control, similar to if you would have more harvesters to gain resources faster, but it makes it harder to get lifeforms at the start of the game. This could also make it so that 1 hive strategies are even better, if 1 hive onos would be possible but at an increased cost, maybe even lifeform research being available, so it would be possible to have strategies such as 1 hive blink or leap but at an increased cost as well. Counter-argument: None, this is awesome.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Counter argument: Forcing teams to wait 30 extra seconds for their 6-8m onos doesn't actually fix the problem of the 6-8m onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2026683:date=Nov 17 2012, 02:24 AM:name=squee116)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (squee116 @ Nov 17 2012, 02:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And mines aren't an offensive weapon, so I don't see how they would help marines over power aliens early game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are very offensive weapons in competitive games (and pub games with experienced players). In fact, mines are the primary reason why marines can win games -- you push with 4 marines with mines, drop mines, and stand on top of them. You're effectively invulnerable to skulks. They're almost as broken as onos, it's just significantly more frustrating and more deep seated of a problem in regards to the onos.
How about just adding a new building called the Evolution Chamber (high SC2 ripoff). Building itself can cost only 5 or less tRES and can be built either before or after 2nd Hive. Fade and Onos research can also cost only 5 or less tRES, but with a significant research time. Maybe 60s for Fade and 120+ seconds for Onos. Values can be tweaked, but this will essentially be a low tRES cost solution to delay Fade/Onos timings (or just plain Onos, but adding Fade because it needs 2nd hive as well). Research can only take place AFTER 2nd hive maturation so this can effectively deal with early Onos depending on research time.
So something like:
<u>Evolution Chamber</u> <ul><li>Building Cost - 1 tRES</li><li>Building HP - Equivalent or more of Harvester?</li><li>Allows research of Fade and Onos</li><li>Fade Research Time - 60s, costs 5 tRES</li><li>Onos Research Time - 150s, costs 5 tRES</li><li>Allows evolution of Fade/Onos even if 2nd hive is taken out.</li><li>Cannot be built without 2nd hive.</li><li>Evolution is lost if chamber is destroyed.</li><li>Can offer other upgrades to alien lifeforms as needed.</li></ul>
Either way I think there should be a difference in tiers between Fade and Onos. Putting Onos to Tier3 (3rd Hive) is beyond excessive. So something like Tier 2.5 (with the Evo Chamber) should help fix some things.
It's been a while since I checked in on this thread. Interesting stuff going on here.
I like the ideas being presented, but I'm not sure they really hit the mark. The main issue is that a strong, later-game unit is being brought into the early game, when marines typically are not upgraded to the point where they can reasonably contend with the unit. This is what strikes everyone as unfair.
In a game where Onos "naturally" arrive on the scene, ie., an alien player amasses 75 PRes, the marine team typically has some form of upgraded weapons and armor, and/or jet packs and grenade launchers... the kind of toys a small group of marines needs to defend against a lone Onos.
Here's another possible solution to throw on the pile: allow the alien commander to transfer Tres to Pres. Specifics:
1. Alien commander can no longer drop lifeform eggs. 2. Alien commander can designate an egg as available for a player to consume: this costs the Alien commander 2 Tres (or whatever the current cost for spawning eggs is). 3. Alien player evolves the egg, and is awarded 2 Pres. The evolution time is 5 seconds.
I think this would create an interesting advantage / disadvantage to the system:
1. Alien respawn rate is impeded, so there is some risk/reward for doing this. However it is still governed by the Alien commander so it can't be griefed by a greedy player. 2. Alien evolving extra resources is occupied in a non-combat activity, so they can't fight while doing this. 3. Alien commander is governed by the egg limits of hive and shift.
A basic look at the math of it would be that you still need to spend time and resources to upgrade a hive to a shift hive, and probably drop a shift + eggs to make it work: you would need to transfer 55 resources from Tres to Pres for an Onos. If a commander and player did nothing but drop eggs, assign them to the Tres-Pres swap and then the player evolved, it would take 275 seconds. This isn't counting the Pres a player would also accumulate, but it also means the Alien commander isn't upgrading other structures or doing anything but spawning eggs and making them res-swappable. It also means the player trying to fast Onos is vulnerable during egg transitions, and more importantly, isn't on the field doing useful things.
It probably isn't the silver bullet to the problem, but I think it could be interesting, and still allows the aliens the opportunity to come back from a turtle situation. The numbers could certainly be tweaked.
The problem is not that there is a 6 min onos. Its a problem that marines can't reply to it.
<b>You can make the first ONOS egg dropped before any ONOS evolved visible on map for marine. or some kind of alert</b>. Make this a Risk for alien and also for marines.
This can produce multiple tactical outcomes like:
<u><b>MARINES</b></u> 1. Marines stay save and accept the fact there will be an onos and proceed as normal with the thought they can handle it. In the mean while expand faster because alien has to defend. 2. Send an onos death squad (yeh that sounds nice :P) and kill or not kill the egg.
<u><b>ALIEN</b></u> 1. Few lifeforms protect the egg any way they can. gives marines if not responding to expand faster 2. By dropping an Onos egg they expose their hyve location and risk having the egg killed.
This way you are not effecting other balances and you make the tactical considerations more interesting with multiple outcomes. Also this is in my eyes easy to implement for the programmers.
<!--quoteo(post=2028718:date=Nov 19 2012, 03:01 PM:name=kryptt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kryptt @ Nov 19 2012, 03:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Havent seen this idea:
The problem is not that there is a 6 min onos. Its a problem that marines can't reply to it.
<b>You can make the first ONOS egg dropped before any ONOS evolved visible on map for marine. or some kind of alert</b>. Make this a Risk for alien and also for marines.
This can produce multiple tactical outcomes like:
<u><b>MARINES</b></u> 1. Marines stay save and accept the fact there will be an onos and proceed as normal with the thought they can handle it. In the mean while expand faster because alien has to defend. 2. Send an onos death squad (yeh that sounds nice :P) and kill or not kill the egg.
<u><b>ALIEN</b></u> 1. Few lifeforms protect the egg any way they can. gives marines if not responding to expand faster 2. By dropping an Onos egg they expose their hyve location and risk having the egg killed.
This way you are not effecting other balances and you make the tactical considerations more interesting with multiple outcomes. Also this is in my eyes easy to implement for the programmers.
Thanks for considering it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because a team has the choice not to suicide into the egg location, doesn't make it an option. The outcome will be the same everytime.
<!--quoteo(post=2028721:date=Nov 19 2012, 06:14 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 19 2012, 06:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just because a team has the choice not to suicide into the egg location, doesn't make it an option. The outcome will be the same everytime.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree. Why you think the outcome will be the same everytime? You never sneaked in a hyve silently? Ofcourse its doable.
If one or two marines go for the egg it's worth it. Because its a huge investment for the alien team.
It's an addition instead of a nerv. Gives the game more tactical depth.
The Onos is not supposed to be a game-ending unit for the aliens, just as the Exo is not supposed to be a game-ending unit for the marines. Sure, Exos have massive damage output greater than any other playable unit in the game (and more health than any marine unit), and the Onos has more health than any other playable unit in the game (and more damage than any other alien), but that just makes them handy siege units. They can certainly help out end-game, but they shouldn't <i>be</i> the end-game. Just like shotguns and a Lerk with Regen can help out mid-game, that doesn't mean that the game will be decided depending on which of those two arrives first.
The problem is, right now the game <i>is</i> a race to get the siege unit first. That's not just a problem with the Onos. The only reason the Onos is taking so much heat right now is because the Khammander is able to spawn them in during the <i>mid- to early-game</i>, which is a separate problem all in itself. I think that keeping in mind that this is really two different problems with the same symptoms will help people in coming up with some good idea.
That being said, I still stand by what I said earlier as well. I think the best way to handle the problem of the "6-minute Onos", as this thread is titled, is with the idea of giving the Onos a better researched ability. But I don't think that is the only option available, and it wouldn't address the problem of the two siege units being seen as the 'game enders' that they are now. However, it would clear up one problem, and that's certainly progress.
Comments
Exos require 20r for a second command chair which also requires some semblance of map control, it then requires 40r for the protolab and 30r for the research which also takes a lot of time to complete. Then it takes 50-75 res to buy and 15, 25, 35r respectively for each armour upgrade which <i>also</i> requires a ton of time. Onos only really needs carapice and maybe celerity and he's performing at 90% capacity 5 minutes into the game.
Not only are onos self sufficient in their play style, but so is the alien commander who requires zero coordination with an alien team other than getting them to pressure the marine start location. exos are not self sufficient and the marine com requires mariens to build everything for him. They are weaker than onos and cannot heal themselves. The balance is way off the charts. If exos require 2 CC's the onos should require 2 hive's and probably be a little more expensive, even if it's 90 res (which in turn will make fade more viable). A single onos harassing one flank of a base can pretty much lock it down for 5-10 minutes as it requires the entire team in one place to kill it or hurt it enough that it retreats instead of just ganking the base after killing the first 3 marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
MOST PUBS WONT SEE A 4 MINUTES ONOS DROP
How many professional player need to join the alien team to accomplish a 4 minute drop?! you need SO many competent people to hold and defend key points!
You all can't be serious.... STOP TRYING TO NERF ALIENS BECAUSE THEY WON A FEW TIME!
I have seen marines come back from near demise! I have NEVER seen aliens make a comeback. On the other hand I have seen aliens LOOSE GAMES after having 4 Hives for over 10 minutes! (ESPECIALLY IN PUBS! SO DON'T BRING PUBS INTO IT)
<b>11.)</b> Onos cost increased, Tres model is staggered with it being based on # of hives, more hives = cost is less
Argument: Basically having more hives gives you cheaper lifeforms. Onos could be something like 90/80/70 as an example. Tres and Pres cost amount separation is a must, they are not equal and must be balanced differently. With a higher number of hives it would decrease lifeform cost with more map control, similar to if you would have more harvesters to gain resources faster, but it makes it harder to get lifeforms at the start of the game. This could also make it so that 1 hive strategies are even better, if 1 hive onos would be possible but at an increased cost, maybe even lifeform research being available, so it would be possible to have strategies such as 1 hive blink or leap but at an increased cost as well.
Counter-argument: None, this is awesome.
How many professional player need to join the alien team to accomplish a 4 minute drop?! you need SO many competent people to hold and defend key points!
You all can't be serious.... STOP TRYING TO NERF ALIENS BECAUSE THEY WON A FEW TIME!
I have seen marines come back from near demise! I have NEVER seen aliens make a comeback. On the other hand I have seen aliens LOOSE GAMES after having 4 Hives for over 10 minutes! (ESPECIALLY IN PUBS! SO DON'T BRING PUBS INTO IT)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem peolpe complaining about is bigger than the 6 minute Onos. The underlying issue is the currently poor scaling of alien tech/lifeforms, ie Lerks and Fades are not viable mid-late game, especially for their res cost. The only reason this is being called "The 6 Minute Onos" is because the strategy was practiaclly the only one seen being used in competitive tournaments. So people started bringing it up and now it's what is trending in the forums. Of cuorse, the fact that it's trending doesn't mean it's not a legitamate problem. But the bottom line is, the 6 Minute Onos itself isn't the problem, it's the only solution currently being used to avoid the problem, which is Alien Scaling and lack of mid game viability. Alien teams are skipping from early to late game to avoid it. 6 Minute Onos might not even be so bad if Fades and Lerks were equally as viable at the 6 minute mark. You might still get a 6 minute Onos, but not in every game.
I Agree.
But the ESL finals will show you that the 6 min onos is "broken". One onos will keep 3 or 4 marines in one point and the 4 others skulks will just have to destroy the extractors 1 by 1 in the other side of the map.
The thing is that the Onos can hit the field at one point that there is no counter to it for 5 or 6 minutes. And that means the game.
Surprise surprise.
I'm assuming your proposed res costs are just an example, as a 5 res increase on the cost (or indeed about a 30 res cost <b>decrease </b>in the case of one hive) is obviously laughable. The problem with this is that 75 res really is the largest amount you can reasonably expect a commander to put into one object. Hell, I would be reluctant to drop hives themselves if they cost more than 75 res, and they are far less temperamental than an Onos. As for comparative prices between tres and pres, its good design to keep them the same. Also, assuming they are <i>strictly the same</i> is quite naive. Its similar to thinking 10 US dollars is equal to 10 Australian dollars. They aren't harvested at the same rate, they aren't spent at the same rate. Just because the numbers are the same doesn't mean they are equal.
And mines aren't an offensive weapon, so I don't see how they would help marines over power aliens early game.
That's just my .02 from the 40 hrs I've played (which I know isn't considerable compared to a lot of those that have commented so far)
I also think nerfing the vanilla Onos and then making it upgrade reliant to be as battle effective as it currently stands might be a good way to go too.
personally i think it would create a much better game, i prefer thae games to last a while, right now most matches end within 15-30mins of them starting and it can be frustrating to get a good match going. Think this is mostly due to the learning curve of the game.
<div align='center'><img src="http://i.imgur.com/Uciee.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /></div>
A horrible idea for SOOOOO many reasons.
I am not trying to flame you but you havn't listed even one.
It nerfs the ENTIRE ####ING alien tech tree instead of solving the problem of onos...
I cant even go into how many reasons it is horrible... the idea of its implementation makes me want to throw up...
Btw the reason for my hostility is because nice pictures like this make our UWE devs want to implement things (they are like magpies) and implementing this would be horrible... :|
Rail gun - maybe, as a counter to <i>early</i> onos... no... as a counter to onos... yes!!!
With those stats!!! NOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It insta kills everything OTHER than the onos (doing 300 dmg in a AoE) it kills an onos/hive in a few shots 750 ####ing dmg per shot... (3 marines = insta dead onos or hive)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I probably didn't do a very good job presenting the idea and you have some misconceptions because of this.
-The damage numbers are just numbers, and by no means final.
-The explosion happens inside the onos think explosive suppository, would only deal AOE damage IF the explosion happens to kill the Onos.
<i>*Note piercing shells puncture straight through smaller aliens</i>
This means that if you shoot a Skulk, Gorge, Lerk or Fade it deals the "Direct Damage" (would only instant kill a skulk) and does not trigger the "Explosive or Hemmorhage Damage". The "Explosive Damage" blows up after a countdown inside the Onos and the "Hemmorhage Damage" is the damage over time effect after the "Explosive Damage".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rail gun - maybe, as a counter to early onos... no... as a counter to onos... yes!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I came up with the weapon idea as a counter to the onos specificly and not to counter the entire alien repertoire.
The weapon itself has a charge time before firing and a cooldown after firing with a long reload time. That means that using this to fire at anything but an onos is extremely risky.
Hopefully this information should better help explain the idea and more detailed information should have been available when I posted it.
So has no use but to be instant death to hives and onos.
No thx.
No thx.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I feel like you didn't read my entire post. It doesn't even fire instantaneously much less deal enough damage to instantly kill a Hive or an Onos. Since you are so vehemently against the idea could you possibly give me more detailed feedback so I can possibly make it a solution you would support.
I will acknowledge that Fade needs some loving. Heck, Charlie admitted that. But 2 hive, 3 Harvester, Onos Egg is problematic as a strategy and feels...gimmicky and unnatural.
I agree with solution number 2: require a 3rd hive to evolve an Onos egg.
This allows for late game rez dumps, while keeping the Onos out of the mid game. Individual players can still save up and go Onos on their own.
This solution is elegant, easy to understand and encourages dominant teams to spread out rather than camp in 2 hives.
The core issue of <i>why Onos egg is the prefered midgame strategy</i> at the moment is deeper than we're giving it credit for. As Charlie put it "small changes" will adjust the game balance as patches roll down the line.
So I think we're getting the Blink "fix" back soon, and that Onos eggs should require 3 hives to encourage more Fade play.
<b>11.)</b> Onos cost increased, Tres model is staggered with it being based on # of hives, more hives = cost is less
Argument: Basically having more hives gives you cheaper lifeforms. Onos could be something like 90/80/70 as an example. Tres and Pres cost amount separation is a must, they are not equal and must be balanced differently. With a higher number of hives it would decrease lifeform cost with more map control, similar to if you would have more harvesters to gain resources faster, but it makes it harder to get lifeforms at the start of the game. This could also make it so that 1 hive strategies are even better, if 1 hive onos would be possible but at an increased cost, maybe even lifeform research being available, so it would be possible to have strategies such as 1 hive blink or leap but at an increased cost as well.
Counter-argument: None, this is awesome.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Counter argument: Forcing teams to wait 30 extra seconds for their 6-8m onos doesn't actually fix the problem of the 6-8m onos.
They are very offensive weapons in competitive games (and pub games with experienced players). In fact, mines are the primary reason why marines can win games -- you push with 4 marines with mines, drop mines, and stand on top of them. You're effectively invulnerable to skulks. They're almost as broken as onos, it's just significantly more frustrating and more deep seated of a problem in regards to the onos.
So something like:
<u>Evolution Chamber</u>
<ul><li>Building Cost - 1 tRES</li><li>Building HP - Equivalent or more of Harvester?</li><li>Allows research of Fade and Onos</li><li>Fade Research Time - 60s, costs 5 tRES</li><li>Onos Research Time - 150s, costs 5 tRES</li><li>Allows evolution of Fade/Onos even if 2nd hive is taken out.</li><li>Cannot be built without 2nd hive.</li><li>Evolution is lost if chamber is destroyed.</li><li>Can offer other upgrades to alien lifeforms as needed.</li></ul>
Either way I think there should be a difference in tiers between Fade and Onos. Putting Onos to Tier3 (3rd Hive) is beyond excessive. So something like Tier 2.5 (with the Evo Chamber) should help fix some things.
I like the ideas being presented, but I'm not sure they really hit the mark. The main issue is that a strong, later-game unit is being brought into the early game, when marines typically are not upgraded to the point where they can reasonably contend with the unit. This is what strikes everyone as unfair.
In a game where Onos "naturally" arrive on the scene, ie., an alien player amasses 75 PRes, the marine team typically has some form of upgraded weapons and armor, and/or jet packs and grenade launchers... the kind of toys a small group of marines needs to defend against a lone Onos.
Here's another possible solution to throw on the pile: allow the alien commander to transfer Tres to Pres. Specifics:
1. Alien commander can no longer drop lifeform eggs.
2. Alien commander can designate an egg as available for a player to consume: this costs the Alien commander 2 Tres (or whatever the current cost for spawning eggs is).
3. Alien player evolves the egg, and is awarded 2 Pres. The evolution time is 5 seconds.
I think this would create an interesting advantage / disadvantage to the system:
1. Alien respawn rate is impeded, so there is some risk/reward for doing this. However it is still governed by the Alien commander so it can't be griefed by a greedy player.
2. Alien evolving extra resources is occupied in a non-combat activity, so they can't fight while doing this.
3. Alien commander is governed by the egg limits of hive and shift.
A basic look at the math of it would be that you still need to spend time and resources to upgrade a hive to a shift hive, and probably drop a shift + eggs to make it work: you would need to transfer 55 resources from Tres to Pres for an Onos. If a commander and player did nothing but drop eggs, assign them to the Tres-Pres swap and then the player evolved, it would take 275 seconds. This isn't counting the Pres a player would also accumulate, but it also means the Alien commander isn't upgrading other structures or doing anything but spawning eggs and making them res-swappable. It also means the player trying to fast Onos is vulnerable during egg transitions, and more importantly, isn't on the field doing useful things.
It probably isn't the silver bullet to the problem, but I think it could be interesting, and still allows the aliens the opportunity to come back from a turtle situation. The numbers could certainly be tweaked.
The problem is not that there is a 6 min onos.
Its a problem that marines can't reply to it.
<b>You can make the first ONOS egg dropped before any ONOS evolved visible on map for marine. or some kind of alert</b>.
Make this a Risk for alien and also for marines.
This can produce multiple tactical outcomes like:
<u><b>MARINES</b></u>
1. Marines stay save and accept the fact there will be an onos and proceed as normal with the thought they can handle it.
In the mean while expand faster because alien has to defend.
2. Send an onos death squad (yeh that sounds nice :P) and kill or not kill the egg.
<u><b>ALIEN</b></u>
1. Few lifeforms protect the egg any way they can.
gives marines if not responding to expand faster
2. By dropping an Onos egg they expose their hyve location and risk having the egg killed.
This way you are not effecting other balances and you make the tactical considerations more interesting with multiple outcomes.
Also this is in my eyes easy to implement for the programmers.
Thanks for considering it.
The problem is not that there is a 6 min onos.
Its a problem that marines can't reply to it.
<b>You can make the first ONOS egg dropped before any ONOS evolved visible on map for marine. or some kind of alert</b>.
Make this a Risk for alien and also for marines.
This can produce multiple tactical outcomes like:
<u><b>MARINES</b></u>
1. Marines stay save and accept the fact there will be an onos and proceed as normal with the thought they can handle it.
In the mean while expand faster because alien has to defend.
2. Send an onos death squad (yeh that sounds nice :P) and kill or not kill the egg.
<u><b>ALIEN</b></u>
1. Few lifeforms protect the egg any way they can.
gives marines if not responding to expand faster
2. By dropping an Onos egg they expose their hyve location and risk having the egg killed.
This way you are not effecting other balances and you make the tactical considerations more interesting with multiple outcomes.
Also this is in my eyes easy to implement for the programmers.
Thanks for considering it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because a team has the choice not to suicide into the egg location, doesn't make it an option. The outcome will be the same everytime.
I don't agree.
Why you think the outcome will be the same everytime?
You never sneaked in a hyve silently? Ofcourse its doable.
If one or two marines go for the egg it's worth it.
Because its a huge investment for the alien team.
It's an addition instead of a nerv.
Gives the game more tactical depth.
The problem is, right now the game <i>is</i> a race to get the siege unit first. That's not just a problem with the Onos. The only reason the Onos is taking so much heat right now is because the Khammander is able to spawn them in during the <i>mid- to early-game</i>, which is a separate problem all in itself. I think that keeping in mind that this is really two different problems with the same symptoms will help people in coming up with some good idea.
That being said, I still stand by what I said earlier as well. I think the best way to handle the problem of the "6-minute Onos", as this thread is titled, is with the idea of giving the Onos a better researched ability. But I don't think that is the only option available, and it wouldn't address the problem of the two siege units being seen as the 'game enders' that they are now. However, it would clear up one problem, and that's certainly progress.