<!--quoteo(post=2026134:date=Nov 16 2012, 02:21 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 16 2012, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Question... Why build shifts in the base? Wouldn't it be easier to set them up in the hive and echo eggs into the base?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Echo is kind of expensive and takes maturation time, but there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to anyway. Again, this seems like one of those "aliens have already won, so what can I do as commander to end the game in the most outrageously derpLOL way possible."
I still like my suggestion of writing GG in whips, asking the marine com to scan it, and then echoing them into the marine base better than echoing shifts. Way more entertaining.
You end the game around the time you build a 2nd hive
Onos egg requires a second hive first + another 75 res so it's not in the cards yet
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<u><b>swalk:</b></u>
Wow thank you! An argument based on math. . . this is why Infantry Portal rush was so good during beta because when the alien team ran out of eggs you would just instantly win
Now aliens can make eggs so the reverse must now be true
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<u><b>Zek:</b></u>
The supply would run out instantly
If I had 2 hives then the push would come way too late and echo isn't cheap either exactly
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<u><b>HeatSurge:</b></u>
Commanders can get out and help so a good comm does matter when your team is fighting in base
Having the eggs in base is quite different than having them outside because people are burning clips and reloading to kill them
I'm sure I don't need to tell you how easy it is to die before you get done reloading you gun so what's the hold up on this?
Wave spawn lets the whole team get back in the fight immediately while the marines are stuck with whatever their 2-3 IPs can grind out
But maybe I'm still not reaching you so why don't you tell me how much more of advantage the aliens would need with this setup before you think it's OP
SlowLefty has already improved on the strat by covering the shifts with clogs and hydras; something I didn't even think to ask my team to do
Tagging the room with Enzyme is also easily in reach
Echoing 12 eggs would cost 36 res would it not? Plus the Shifts gives the attackers basically infinite energy.
This is why I have constantly pushed for chambers that do not stack. Crags, Shade, Shift... these structures should not stack when in range of one another.
Make things more purposeful when you place them, thus they can be more effective.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
I've used this to speed up the endgame (successfully), but I haven't used it as an opening strat before. One variation I would be curious to try is to echo in bombard whips once the assault gets started.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Question... Why build shifts in the base? Wouldn't it be easier to set them up in the hive and echo eggs into the base?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I was to use echo as the core of this strat, I'd be more tempted to echo the actual shifts in. Again to avoid the build time vulnerability.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
We just played a PCW (not with our proper team) against EoD, and they did something similar to our expansion CC. 2 gorges healing and clogging the left entrance to shipping, shifts outside, add whips to prevent GL spam, and eggs everywhere. Suffice to say we couldn't hold our 2nd CC.
We had just taken down their start hive. They only had Repair Hive and cleared us right out of shipping.
Variations on this tactic could be very powerful, however, we were crap, I mean, we were so low on players we had 3 mercs and I was playing :P We weren't that organised, but still, I was very distressed to see that happen, and even more distressed to find they possibly came up with the idea because of this thread :(
Not saying it's OP, but it needs some higher level testing..
It gets harder to do in when you have hives because people might spawn in the wrong place
Also the skulks don't have time to upgrade anything so if it's lategame when marines are +2/+2 or better you're going to watch everyone die over and over again like I've already seen in a few games when other people were commanding
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<u><b>DanielD:</b></u>
Tests are repeatable so you can get to that conclusion much sooner because of the randomness of the teams
If I pulled off a win when I should of likely lost chances are I will continue to go positive because things are more likely to be even
Also setting up a test where both sides know that you are going to use the strat won't work because the strat is a Finisher
It's different if you test out sentry rush because it's an Opener that you can scout to see there is a Robotics Factory
There's not much of a tell for this other than a cyst chain which doesn't mean much You don't drop an upgrade so marines don't even know you can drop shifts if they scout your hive Marines are pushed way out looking for where that 2nd hive is being dropped. . . even covering 2 or 3 rooms Meanwhile aliens come crashing through vents or the center of the map; nobody sees them, then it's too late
<i>it's just GG</i>
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<u><b>Soul_Rider:</b></u>
Yeah the pressure of it is way too high
I think marines need to immediately start going 3 and 1 otherwise you will not be able to hold it
I'm a little disappointed that the insta ability use might get fixed because it closes the door on new alien tactics, but there will probably need to make shifts energy free and have them just make eggs automatically at a slower rate than hives
I've been in several games where marines are taking over an unbuilt hive and then we kill a shift, but we don't find the 2nd shift being built and get pushed out by egg spam
Even the small scale doesn't seem right, but you can see the normal strat can now push it much farther
Comments
Echo is kind of expensive and takes maturation time, but there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to anyway. Again, this seems like one of those "aliens have already won, so what can I do as commander to end the game in the most outrageously derpLOL way possible."
I still like my suggestion of writing GG in whips, asking the marine com to scan it, and then echoing them into the marine base better than echoing shifts. Way more entertaining.
You end the game around the time you build a 2nd hive
Onos egg requires a second hive first + another 75 res so it's not in the cards yet
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<u><b>swalk:</b></u>
Wow thank you!
An argument based on math. . . this is why Infantry Portal rush was so good during beta because when the alien team ran out of eggs you would just instantly win
Now aliens can make eggs so the reverse must now be true
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<u><b>Zek:</b></u>
The supply would run out instantly
If I had 2 hives then the push would come way too late and echo isn't cheap either exactly
---
<u><b>HeatSurge:</b></u>
Commanders can get out and help so a good comm does matter when your team is fighting in base
Having the eggs in base is quite different than having them outside because people are burning clips and reloading to kill them
I'm sure I don't need to tell you how easy it is to die before you get done reloading you gun so what's the hold up on this?
Wave spawn lets the whole team get back in the fight immediately while the marines are stuck with whatever their 2-3 IPs can grind out
But maybe I'm still not reaching you so why don't you tell me how much more of advantage the aliens would need with this setup before you think it's OP
SlowLefty has already improved on the strat by covering the shifts with clogs and hydras; something I didn't even think to ask my team to do
Tagging the room with Enzyme is also easily in reach
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This is why I have constantly pushed for chambers that do not stack. Crags, Shade, Shift... these structures should not stack when in range of one another.
Make things more purposeful when you place them, thus they can be more effective.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Question... Why build shifts in the base? Wouldn't it be easier to set them up in the hive and echo eggs into the base?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I was to use echo as the core of this strat, I'd be more tempted to echo the actual shifts in. Again to avoid the build time vulnerability.
Yeah, that's not how testing works.
We had just taken down their start hive. They only had Repair Hive and cleared us right out of shipping.
Variations on this tactic could be very powerful, however, we were crap, I mean, we were so low on players we had 3 mercs and I was playing :P We weren't that organised, but still, I was very distressed to see that happen, and even more distressed to find they possibly came up with the idea because of this thread :(
Not saying it's OP, but it needs some higher level testing..
It gets harder to do in when you have hives because people might spawn in the wrong place
Also the skulks don't have time to upgrade anything so if it's lategame when marines are +2/+2 or better you're going to watch everyone die over and over again like I've already seen in a few games when other people were commanding
---
<u><b>DanielD:</b></u>
Tests are repeatable so you can get to that conclusion much sooner because of the randomness of the teams
If I pulled off a win when I should of likely lost chances are I will continue to go positive because things are more likely to be even
Also setting up a test where both sides know that you are going to use the strat won't work because the strat is a Finisher
It's different if you test out sentry rush because it's an Opener that you can scout to see there is a Robotics Factory
There's not much of a tell for this other than a cyst chain which doesn't mean much
You don't drop an upgrade so marines don't even know you can drop shifts if they scout your hive
Marines are pushed way out looking for where that 2nd hive is being dropped. . . even covering 2 or 3 rooms
Meanwhile aliens come crashing through vents or the center of the map; nobody sees them, then it's too late
<i>it's just GG</i>
---
<u><b>Soul_Rider:</b></u>
Yeah the pressure of it is way too high
I think marines need to immediately start going 3 and 1 otherwise you will not be able to hold it
I'm a little disappointed that the insta ability use might get fixed because it closes the door on new alien tactics, but there will probably need to make shifts energy free and have them just make eggs automatically at a slower rate than hives
I've been in several games where marines are taking over an unbuilt hive and then we kill a shift, but we don't find the 2nd shift being built and get pushed out by egg spam
Even the small scale doesn't seem right, but you can see the normal strat can now push it much farther