Thoughts on SG balance?

Samus1111111Samus1111111 Join Date: 2012-08-07 Member: 154930Members, Reinforced - Shadow
in NS2 General Discussion
Ok, just wondering what people think of SGs right now.

Personally, I don't really have to much of a problem with them vs. fades/onos, but for any of the lower/mid lifeforms, I believe they are too strong. Specifically when you're talking about skulks. If aliens don't go crag/cara first, a SG rush is very effective. 1-shots are pretty common and require no skill and allow marines to lock down locations relatively easily preventing aliens from expanding. If aliens didn't go crag first, they're pretty screwed against a decent marine team since skulks are being 1-shotted left and right and it takes 2x+ the number of skulks to take down marines.

I am completely against any form of 1-shotting in any game. More so when no skill is required.

But, I just wanted to ask other people's opinions. I admit that I am definitely not the super uber skulk master, but I consider myself to be decent and don't believe that this should be happening against marines of similar skill. Is this just a case of learning to counter them or is it the balance problem that I see it as.
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Comments

  • GoofyGoofy Join Date: 2004-10-24 Member: 32434Members
    Two things happening here..

    20res vs 0res. Two 0res skulks can easily take down a shotgunner.

    80% of the time I can take down a shotgunner as a skulk as long as I have ANY upgrade.
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  • FappuchinoFappuchino Join Date: 2012-10-10 Member: 162008Members
    OP, why start a topic and not say anything definitive about the changes you think should be made? How would one go about balancing a weapon that requires no skill (I thought aiming was a skill but never-mind), and yet, is relatively useless at range and has a rather long reload time?
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  • RokiyoRokiyo A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
    If he had stated changes that should be made, he would have been making a suggestion, and this would have been the wrong forum for that. :P
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  • BurdockBurdock Join Date: 2012-08-27 Member: 156553Members
    SG is Overpowered, there is no point covering that further. The Question is how to deal with it without making aliens feel too strong.

    -Daniel
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  • FappuchinoFappuchino Join Date: 2012-10-10 Member: 162008Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2027623:date=Nov 17 2012, 10:27 PM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ Nov 17 2012, 10:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027623"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If he had stated changes that should be made, he would have been making a suggestion, and this would have been the wrong forum for that. :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    And? Suggestions can't be debated? It seems to me he can't figure anything out because truthfully, there's probably nothing wrong with the shotgun (nothing <b>glaringly</b>wrong, for the people who are going to inevitably present rebuttals of some sort).

    It costs 20 Pres, and to make someone be dead-accurate twice to kill a lowly skulk is ridiculous.
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  • HivelordHivelord Join Date: 2003-06-21 Member: 17567Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I'd say its too early to be making big calls like shotgun is OP. There's a few leagues/tournaments starting up soon. Hopefully these games will provide more data and balance insights for UW to work with.
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  • Samus1111111Samus1111111 Join Date: 2012-08-07 Member: 154930Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I just wanted to gauge if it was only me having a prob or not. If it is just me, then it's me and I'll improve. If it's not me, I'll come up with some suggested changes.
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  • GlissGliss Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14800Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester
    edited November 2012
    removing <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=119845" target="_blank">random spread</a> from the shotgun has to be addressed before any progress can be made on balancing the shotgun
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  • FappuchinoFappuchino Join Date: 2012-10-10 Member: 162008Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2027638:date=Nov 17 2012, 10:38 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Nov 17 2012, 10:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->removing <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=119845" target="_blank">random spread</a> from the shotgun has to be addressed before any progress can be made on balancing the shotgun<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The random spread can feel forcibly artificial at times, but I can only imagine bad things happening if you make it a 100% perfect hit-scan weapon.
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  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
    Triple the firing rate and cut the damage in thirds. Your SG is still an aim-forgiving to the LMG with the same DPS it had before, but now your enemies have some slim chance to react instead of getting one-shot. Also, the huge clip makes sense.
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  • RabidWeaselRabidWeasel Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5337Members
    The shotgun is fine except vs. fades, which is a fade issue more than a shotgun issue. If the shotgun is going to be changed at all it needs to have its crazy spread looked at first, then maybe other changes can be made.
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  • Snypr18Snypr18 Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168566Members
    Get stomped by some good skulks time after time and you will begin to see that the shotgun is juuuust fine.
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  • DavilDavil Florida, USA Join Date: 2012-08-14 Member: 155602Members, Constellation
    When I get celerity I can dodge most guys with a shotgun pretty easily. A lot of skulks try to run straight up to a guy with a shotgun which should result in death. There have been times however that I got 1 shotted by a shotgun across a room which kind of sucks but that's pretty uncommon.
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  • deathshrouddeathshroud Join Date: 2010-04-10 Member: 71291Members
    i think the shotgun needs a slightly slower rate of fire
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  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2027629:date=Nov 18 2012, 02:32 AM:name=Hivelord)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hivelord @ Nov 18 2012, 02:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd say its too early to be making big calls like shotgun is OP. There's a few leagues/tournaments starting up soon. Hopefully these games will provide more data and balance insights for UW to work with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I really hope they datamine the ###### out of competitive games. I'd like data for who killed who where how and why (ok, maybe why is asking a bit too much :P)

    I'd really LOVE a huge SQL database just filled with delicious statistics. It would make map design and metagame planning SO sweet.
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  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=2027624:date=Nov 18 2012, 07:27 AM:name=Burdock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burdock @ Nov 18 2012, 07:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->SG is Overpowered, there is no point covering that further. The Question is how to deal with it without making aliens feel too strong.

    -Daniel<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Do not agree.
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  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
    I'm still not sure SG is overpowered or not. But I like the higher ROF/lower damage suggestion though.
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  • xxswatelitexxxxswatelitexx Join Date: 2012-11-16 Member: 171754Members
    edited November 2012
    SG Requires skill to 1 shot
    The person has to perfectly line up the shot to do full damage. A Skulk who is constantly bouncing around, and biting at your heels, its much easier said then done.


    If they only partially hit the skulk or gorge etc. They only do 40 - 60 damage.
    Not to mention its a very expensive price tag.
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  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    6/6 shells
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  • RobustPenguinRobustPenguin Join Date: 2012-08-17 Member: 155719Members
    The problem with shotguns is that they decided to do away with the HMG. For base marines shotguns are the only direct combat upgraded weapon, as such its absurdly powerful early on (and very cheap) but is only ok later game. I'd say its not as godmode as it once was but a good shotgunner is still a total nightmare
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  • BurdockBurdock Join Date: 2012-08-27 Member: 156553Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2027997:date=Nov 18 2012, 10:57 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Nov 18 2012, 10:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027997"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->6/6 shells<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This has been the best idea I have seen on the forums!
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  • xxswatelitexxxxswatelitexx Join Date: 2012-11-16 Member: 171754Members
    edited November 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=2027997:date=Nov 18 2012, 12:57 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Nov 18 2012, 12:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027997"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->6/6 shells<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You might as well make lerks and gorges have to eat cysts to shoot more projectiles if you want to limit the ammo so much. 1 cyst per 10 bile bombs sounds fair.
    you obviouslt can't be shooting stuff out of your body without replenishing it.
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  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=2028031:date=Nov 18 2012, 06:32 PM:name=Burdock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burdock @ Nov 18 2012, 06:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028031"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This has been the best idea I have seen on the forums!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Credit to team, it was you who came up with it right?
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  • NominousNominous Baltimore, MD Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146518Members
    Getting rid of the random spread would benefit competitive players the most since it is unforgiving atm concerning skill. In TF2, the scattergun and shotgun are set to random spread by default on servers, whereas a fixed 3x3 square spread can be toggled on by server operators. In competitive matches across various leagues, the fixed spread is always toggled on afaik. NS2 can be as hectic as TF2 with skulks jumping/leaping around you and whatnot, so a fixed spread should at least be optional for both pub/competitive servers.

    <!--quoteo(post=2027650:date=Nov 18 2012, 01:50 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 18 2012, 01:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Triple the firing rate and cut the damage in thirds. Your SG is still an aim-forgiving to the LMG with the same DPS it had before, but now your enemies have some slim chance to react instead of getting one-shot. Also, the huge clip makes sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I was going to suggest increasing the rate of fire and decreasing the damage too, but tripling seems too big of a change. I'd suggest doubling the fire rate and halving damage. At either rate, it benefits skulks the most since they get one-shot too often.

    I think a higher rate of fire may actually be more powerful than the current shotgun against higher lifeforms, though. Compared to a fade getting away with a sliver of HP now, a higher RoF may enable a shotty marine to get in more damage as it's running away and seal the deal. This is taking damage falloff into account.
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  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited November 2012
    Wider and even spread, more pellets, with adjusted dmg based on the increase to perform the same DPS at point blank range - but prevent ~150 shots from across warehouse.
    Finally a shotgun that fits it's designed role.. and increases skill requirement to perform well, which consequently makes playing fade or lerk far less frustrating / binary.
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  • xxswatelitexxxxswatelitexx Join Date: 2012-11-16 Member: 171754Members
    edited November 2012
    A good reason for 1 shotting i is Xeno.
    I have seen 5 marines taken out with 1 xeno.

    If a Skulk can do 5 kills to a ball of death with a single guy. I think 1 shot is justified deterent to suicide skulks late game.
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  • JKooLJKooL Join Date: 2002-12-24 Member: 11492Members, Constellation
    edited November 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=2027613:date=Nov 18 2012, 12:14 AM:name=Samus1111111)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Samus1111111 @ Nov 18 2012, 12:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1-shots are pretty common and require no skill<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    <!--quoteo(post=2027624:date=Nov 18 2012, 12:27 AM:name=Burdock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burdock @ Nov 18 2012, 12:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->SG is Overpowered, there is no point covering that further. The Question is how to deal with it without making aliens feel too strong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I couldn't disagree more on both accounts. Thankfully, the NS2 devs have a good history of not listening to most of these suggestions.

    As someone mentioned, with the removal of the HMG the Shotgun has to fill a larger role than it did before. I can't even counter the "no skill" remark, I have no idea what basis you are making that judgment on. Is not tracking a fast moving, small target and firing at the appropriate time to maximize damage and minimize spread not a skillful act?
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  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    Limiting shotgun ammo would only require more ammo drops or a forward armory by the commander. It would increase the frequency of reloading and their overall cost would increase, but they would still be extremely effective against all lifeforms.
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  • TimMcTimMc Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143945Members
    I mostly play aliens, and I think SG is fine. Against skulks its a good counter, against lerks its a good penalty for a lerk foolishly getting in range.

    However fades need a hp buff so they can endure SG a bit, or focus so they can feel like an SG.
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  • BurdockBurdock Join Date: 2012-08-27 Member: 156553Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2028033:date=Nov 18 2012, 11:37 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Nov 18 2012, 11:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028033"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Credit to team, it was you who came up with it right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I think it was Ceecolonslash, I just spammed it places..... Reminds me of something *Charlie winkwink*.........
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